Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Vijay » Fri May 18, 2018 12:06 pm

emperior wrote:
Vijay wrote:Bro, I can see the difference real fine & it was the very reason behind you replyin me

C'mon. You speak on Toriyama's behalf as his mouthpiece claiming he wants his character to looks simple....

Which isnt true. Toriyama's artsyle changed drastically over the course of time with his abandoning rounded, overarching style of early DB-era into sharper, bold & defined artstyle as of Frieza Saga onwards, becoming strikingly evident in Cell & Boo Arc

As I said, 90's era is 90's era. Not post Boo/GT/BOG/Super/ROF era.

Something even Toriyama realized back in 90's hence opted to adapt himself with much sharper & angular designs that emphasizes on facial expressions, hair bangs/strands, biceps/triceps & even chi blasts that becamed significantly detailed. Take a look at 21st TB Goku's Kamehameha to 20X Kaioken Kamehameha in Frieza Arc. Holy crap...talk about the artistic progression

Even 90's era have much sophisticated & intricate character designs whenever Masaki Sato, Shinamuki & Hizada Kazuya were providing key-animations.

Just look at 2 Goku designs you've posted & you tell me which one looks like a fighter. I could ask you one better. Which one is the Goku you've watched past 20 years, grown to love & wish to see in action?

A perfectly sculpted, charming & confident right one?

Or timid, lanky dude who looks right off the bat doomed to fly several meters away when even sneezed by Yamoshi/foe on the left?

As I said, this is not bout preferences. Its about the level dedication & emphasize on arts as well as animation instead of sacrificing former for the sake of latter

In fact, I'd understand if its lack of budget on TOEI behalf as they're bout to recover frm financial crisis pre-Kai era

Its revival of sorts for DragonBall franchise & TOEI after gigantic box office smash of BOG & ROF

Hence, there should be no compromises whatsoever when it boils down to art department

I'm not speaking on Toriyama's behalf, I'm just quoting his own words. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... t-edition/
Read it for yourself.
Toriyama's art got more and more angular to emphasize speed, true, but I never claimed otherwise so go back and re-read my post too.
It's also not like these designs are incredibly round, and even if they were animators could always draw the characters more angular if that gives a better sense of speed in a battle.

As for your question, I will tell you that to me the one who looks like a fighter is the one with the correct posture, correct body proportions and relaxed look. The one wearing the orange gi, you know. That's what a martial artist looks like, unlike the incredibly stiff guy wearing a counterfeit red gi and a glued-in hair wig that resembles Goku's hair if it weren't for those highlights and the fourth bang on the left-side. Also the one who looks like he would take a few seconds to move his rigid body around, the one who actually looks lanky. You said it right: perfectly sculpted. Like a damn statue. And what do statues do? Nothing. They stay still, they can't move.
Shintani's Goku gives out the exact idea of Goku without even speaking or moving. He looks confident yet naive. He looks mobile, flexible and relaxed, as Goku typically is, but he still gives out the idea of the dude who can move at lighting fast speeds in a instant and fuck you up with a flurry of punches and kicks you wouldn't see.

And please, stop writing such uninformed bullshit such as the designs being this way because of low budget. There's no compromise in art. We got these kind of designs because the frigging creator of the serie wanted them to be like this, and he personally chose Shintani to deliver them.


Good job spinning my words using perfectly sculpted warrior into a friggin statue which according to you stays still, cant move & literally do nothin! Wow!

There's a difference between an illustration & animation

You use a poster to gauge its fluidity.

Dats like using Tom Cruise's First Look Poster of MI: Fallout to predict its final act

I commented Shintani's lack of attention to Goku's facial texture, shadings, muscle tone, body weight proportion & overall aesthetic appeal

While Yamamuro's Z & ROF work were visually attractive & gives an edgy, badass impression everything right from the facial expression, muscle mass, shades, weight & posture.

Peace

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Vegeta_Sama » Fri May 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Vijay wrote:
I commented Shintani's lack of attention to Goku's facial texture, shadings, muscle tone, body weight proportion & overall aesthetic appeal


Peace

Well, this is awkward. Body weight proportion is exactly what Yammamuro's not good at. Did you even read JazzMazz's post? Yammamuro's Goku is CROOKED
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Kunzait_83 » Fri May 18, 2018 1:46 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Here's a basic reference.


So... I think that of these presented, without a doubt my favorite is the early Yamamuro one (second from the left, late-Z/Boo-arc Goku). Perfect balance of smoothness and detail, with Goku's body rendered as both sturdy and battle-hardened while at the same time still natural, lithe, and relaxed. Facial expression is also just the perfect blend of silly and fun while not going over the top ridiculous with it; its grounded enough that you get the sense that this character is just as capable of registering other emotions in a variety of subtle and less subtle ways.

I normally LOVE and downright adore Maeda to pieces, but that particular example given here isn't really exemplary of his best work I don't think. Doesn't even recall Toriyama all that much (which is normally Maeda's hallmark). It looks almost vaguely Ghibli-esque: which is normally not a bad thing at all of course, but its also not really Dragon Ball either. Its a shade too divorced from the series' iconic style. Not super fond of it as a piece of official DB art, but its still very, very nice work in and of itself obviously.

Ironically my least favorite of these (really the only one I downright LOATHE) is the 2008 Yamamuro one. Awful; flat and dopey looking. A lot of it is the total and utter lack of any shading whatsoever (it really does give the whole thing an aura of tacky cheapness), but its also the linework too, especially in Goku's face which isn't "charmingly silly" at all and instead is just WAY too much into "derp" territory. Even his overall body shape looks weirdly almost "lumpy" (for lack of a better word to describe it). Ick.

Yeah I think the '08 one is the look they went with for that Jump Special which was just... ugh. Fucking godawful. Really glad that DB wasn't fully revived more closer to this era (mid/late 2000s). Almost NOTHING anime-wise in general looked good during those years: or at least it often came across that way at that point in time, with just a lot of obnoxious and lazy stylistic and aesthetic trends going around and being prevalent at that point.

The Nakatsuru one for GT also has Goku with an awkwardly silly look on his face, but its MUCH better realized in comparison to the '08 one, with a much, much more confident and stylish body frame and great detail. Got no problem at all with that one (at least this example of it given here: GT's designs can be all over the place sometimes).

The best of the later Yamamuro ones is probably the Revival of F one: definitely Yamamuro's best out of all the post-revival examples given here, with handsome, crisp linework and shading all around. Honestly, its THIS one that to me looks more closer to Toriyama's later manga work: or at least from more the early-ish 2000s, circa the Kanzenbans. I'm not super-wild about it either, but its the one of all the later, post-90s Yamamuro ones that I'd easily take no question.

The other two of Yamamuro's (2010 and BoG/Super) are.. eh. Not great, but not terrible either. Serviceable enough, but nothing really too memorable either.

Gotta say... I got nothing at all against Shintani so far. I'm mostly really liking it in fact. I understand the concerns that some have with his look (in terms of seeing it as something that can get to be a potentially slippery slope down the road towards a certain cartoonish rubberiness or overly-kawaii-fication than can easily be taken TOO-too far). But so far I'm just not seeing those potential pitfalls coming to fruition here whatsoever; at least with what we've been given so far.

I really dig Shintani's looks for Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Beerus, etc. The one main shot of SSJ Goku we have so far even hearkens back somewhat to the Butouden-era artwork (my personal favorite/gold standard for non-Toriyama DB art), which is 100% perfectly fine by me. :thumbup:
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Vijay » Fri May 18, 2018 11:39 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Vijay wrote:
I commented Shintani's lack of attention to Goku's facial texture, shadings, muscle tone, body weight proportion & overall aesthetic appeal


Peace

Well, this is awkward. Body weight proportion is exactly what Yammamuro's not good at. Did you even read JazzMazz's post? Yammamuro's Goku is CROOKED

What is a post? An opinion/view of an anonymous individual. Not a fact am I right?

I read JazzMazz's post as well as Ajay's podcast on Youtube. So what? Those are their personal perceptions. Its JazzMazz & Ajay's way of interpreting Shintani's design. Simple as that

Once again, if you think drawing a vertical line across an upright poster illustration & find equivalence = balanced body weight, then I'm terrified by your physics + physiology + anatomical theories

Like for real. A poster is well, a poster. Which Shintani's seems to lack artistic appeal such as defined jaw-line, nose, prominent infraorbital lines, toned neck & trapezius muscle, dat goes all the way to atrophied Upper Limb. Loss of Chest/Pectoralis & Biceps muscle mass that like I said....gave the impression of a lanky dude who's about to fly meters away at mere sneeze of Yamoshi/foe.

Not a good illustration or design of a universal fighter.

I'd understand if the setting was pre-Z era or even Saiyan Arc. But Beerus & Whis presence indicates the film is definetly set during Super's timeline

Take a look at Tadayoshi Yamamuro's Boo Arc Goku. Or even ROF Goku.

Put it in comparison to latest Shintani's based upon artistic approach: boyish, confident & charming face + aptly toned muscle mass despite Super's sleeker version vs bizzare, clueless yet confident face + significantly diminished muscle tone giving vibe of chronic TB patient

Look, I think this topic might get locked. My opinion is well, my opinion. I'm not being blinded by nostalgia & such (not even Yamamuro's fan in da 1st place, I prefer Yuya Takahashi better). I'm just baffled at how an inferior output from a newbie is being glorified while at once, a revolutionary veteran is being trashed right, left & centre. All just cuz Toriyama's name. Toriyama preferred this guy. So its Godly. Kai were marketed as Toriyama's-cut. So its Godly. Super was overseen by Toriyama. So its Godly. GT had little to nil input from Toriyama. So its trashy. Sorry to say, I'm well beyond this bandwagon. Peace bro!

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Vegeta_Sama » Sat May 19, 2018 2:02 am

Vijay wrote:All just cuz Toriyama's name. Toriyama preferred this guy. So its Godly. Kai were marketed as Toriyama's-cut. So its Godly. Super was overseen by Toriyama. So its Godly. GT had little to nil input from Toriyama. So its trashy. Sorry to say, I'm well beyond this bandwagon. Peace bro!

That's far from the truth dude. I don't see anyone praising RoF and DB Minus just because they're Toriyama's works. And calling a professional artist a "newbie" is a sing of you not knowing what the hell you're talking about. Also just for your information, the fact that Yammy'a Goku is crooked is not an opinion, man. It can't be argued, and yes, that line is how you find balance, I'm not the one who said it first, people with anination experience did.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby JazzMazz » Sat May 19, 2018 2:10 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Vijay wrote:All just cuz Toriyama's name. Toriyama preferred this guy. So its Godly. Kai were marketed as Toriyama's-cut. So its Godly. Super was overseen by Toriyama. So its Godly. GT had little to nil input from Toriyama. So its trashy. Sorry to say, I'm well beyond this bandwagon. Peace bro!

That's far from the truth dude. I don't see anyone praising RoF and DB Minus just because they're Toriyama's works. And calling a professional artist a "newbie" is a sing of you not knowing what the hell you're talking about. Also just for your information, the fact that Yammy'a Goku is crooked is not an opinion, man. It can't be argued, and yes, that line is how you find balance, I'm not the one who said it first, people with anination experience did.

I think its also worth mentioning the difference in reception between Yamamuro's designs and Shintani's designs by actual big name animators in the industry.

While Yamamuro's designs got called out by the likes of Yoshimichi Kameda(a prodigious talent) and others, Shintani's designs have received an overwhelming positive industry reception, with top talents like Koudai Watanabe, Yuki Hayashi, Yuya Takahashi and Naotoshi Shida praising Shintani's approach.

Shintani is relatively new, yes. However, in this point in his career, his already far more accomplished as a key animator than Yamamuro ever was. His an extraordinarily talented animator, and I think Dragonball is lucky to have him as an asset.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby emperior » Sat May 19, 2018 2:39 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Here's a basic reference.


I normally LOVE and downright adore Maeda to pieces, but that particular example given here isn't really exemplary of his best work I don't think. Doesn't even recall Toriyama all that much (which is normally Maeda's hallmark). It looks almost vaguely Ghibli-esque: which is normally not a bad thing at all of course, but its also not really Dragon Ball either. Its a shade too divorced from the series' iconic style. Not super fond of it as a piece of official DB art, but its still very, very nice work in and of itself obviously.




Actually this is so wrong. I disagree with everything else you wrote, but that’s your opinion, but saying Maeda’s design doesn’t look like Toriyama’s work is 100% wrong. Let me show you: Image
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Kunzait_83 » Sat May 19, 2018 12:27 pm

emperior wrote:Actually this is so wrong. I disagree with everything else you wrote, but that’s your opinion, but saying Maeda’s design doesn’t look like Toriyama’s work is 100% wrong. Let me show you: Image



I didn't mean Maeda's designs IN GENERAL didn't recall Toriyama: I was just referring to that one specific drawing shown in the above examples in particular. Typically I find Maeda is almost ALWAYS very, very much in tune with Toriyama's style, obviously, like most everyone else.

Nonetheless though, I was still wrong here in this particular case because I somehow didn't recall that specific Toriyama drawing of Goku (which is what it indeed very much looks like). So fine, Maeda was still on point with AT there after all. I stand corrected.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby emperior » Sat May 19, 2018 1:03 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
emperior wrote:Actually this is so wrong. I disagree with everything else you wrote, but that’s your opinion, but saying Maeda’s design doesn’t look like Toriyama’s work is 100% wrong. Let me show you: Image



I didn't mean Maeda's designs IN GENERAL didn't recall Toriyama: I was just referring to that one specific drawing shown in the above examples in particular. Typically I find Maeda is almost ALWAYS very, very much in tune with Toriyama's style, obviously, like most everyone else.

Nonetheless though, I was still wrong here in this particular case because I somehow didn't recall that specific Toriyama drawing of Goku (which is what it indeed very much looks like). So fine, Maeda was still on point with AT there after all. I stand corrected.

I know you were referring to that particular design, which is why I decided to post the Toriyama drawing Maeda was referencing when making the design.
I am also quite tired of people who seem to forget how Dragon Ball used to look like pre-Buu arc, or how Toriyama’s manga looks. It’s incredible how some people even like Toyotaro’s art style and Yamamuro’s but don’t like Shintani’s, despite him having nailed down not only the anatomy and colors, but Toriyama’s style too. I always read the fans crying for DBZ here and there and how better then Super it looked, and when we finally get designs similar to DBZ ones, people cry it’s not Buu arc and that it’s not Yamamuro. Honestly, fuck these fans. Dragon Ball isn’t Buu arc.

By the way I’m not talking about you, in fact I only disagree with your disliking of the 2008 special, which I always considered an almost perfect version of modern Dragon Ball, with its gorgeous manga-like colors and backgrounds, and I also liked the designs a lot, although I much prefer Shintani’s Goku and Vegeta to 2008 Yamamuro’s, who still did a fine job with the two Saiyans unlike in later works, and I also disliked the overly bright SSJ hair.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Kunzait_83 » Sat May 19, 2018 1:33 pm

emperior wrote:I know you were referring to that particular design, which is why I decided to post the Toriyama drawing Maeda was referencing when making the design.
I am also quite tired of people who seem to forget how Dragon Ball used to look like pre-Buu arc, or how Toriyama’s manga looks. It’s incredible how some people even like Toyotaro’s art style and Yamamuro’s but don’t like Shintani’s, despite him having nailed down not only the anatomy and colors, but Toriyama’s style too. I always read the fans crying for DBZ here and there and how better then Super it looked, and when we finally get designs similar to DBZ ones, people cry it’s not Buu arc and that it’s not Yamamuro. Honestly, fuck these fans. Dragon Ball isn’t Buu arc.

By the way I’m not talking about you, in fact I only disagree with your disliking of the 2008 special, which I always considered an almost perfect version of modern Dragon Ball, with its gorgeous manga-like colors and backgrounds, and I also liked the designs a lot, although I much prefer Shintani’s Goku and Vegeta to 2008 Yamamuro’s, who still did a fine job with the two Saiyans unlike in later works, and I also disliked the overly bright SSJ hair.


Yeah I was gonna say: I remember quite well what Toriyama's art looked like pre-Boo arc. As far as Toriyama's manga artwork goes, the Boo arc is probably one of my LESSER favorite eras of his work on the series in general (I don't dislike it by any means, but its a lot more "rushed" in comparison to earlier arcs). I'm far, far more all about the 22nd Budokai through the Freeza arcs as the "pinnacle of Dragon Ball" in general, with special note in particular given to the 23rd Budokai and the Saiya-jin/early Freeza arcs as high water mark eras (funny enough, also eras of the anime where Maeda especially has shined; to no one's surprise).

I simply forgot about that one particular AT shot that Maeda was apparently using as his reference, because... well, I'm human and we can't quite remember absolutely EVERYTHING at all times. :P And yes, its a VERY good, and handsome shot (for both Toriyama and Maeda): it just happens to look atypical of Toriyama's usual style, with even more "rounded" edges than usual for him (even at his "roundest" period). Like I said earlier, it has almost more of a Ghibli-ish feel to it, at least to my eyes: which again, I have no real issue with in and of itself... it just struck me as jarringly out of step for DB. Still a very nice drawing though of course.

I will say though that I am much, much more fond of the Boo-era designs more from the DBZ anime than the manga. I find Yamamuro's Boo-era anime work is one of the high points of the entire franchise (outside of Toriyama's manga of course), so I'm not at all surprised that its left such an impression upon fans over the years: it certainly has with me as well. I don't know the name of the artist responsible for a lot of the Butouden promotional artwork unfortunately, but whoever they are, they're also one of my immediate go-to's for "best that DB has ever looked"; and those were all done during both the Cell and Boo eras of the anime.

So while I also typically balk at people who ONLY look to the Boo arc of the anime (or really, just any ONE particular period of DB in general) as the sole arbiter of how DB "should" look, I also totally sympathize with that particular period of the anime being so strikingly pretty so so many: its just overall damn good quality anime artwork, and whatever problems Yamamuro has today (which I agree he has problems now, although I tend to disagree with a lot of folks here as to the exact specific nature of what those problems entail), he originally made his bones as a go-to DB animation designer for a damn good reason.

As far as the 2008 Special's designs go... yeah we're just gonna have to agree to disagree there. I certainly don't see ANYTHING of the manga whatsoever in terms of that special's coloring in particular, as you claim: ESPECIALLY the coloring of the 2008 special which to me is just lazy and uncreative single-tones and has an overall cheap digital sheen to them. Toriyama's original color chapters, by contrast, were PAINSTAKINGLY hand painted, with rich and lovely layers of shading at almost all times, giving them a beautiful organic look.

Even the later "full color" manga releases do a vastly better job with the coloring than does the 2008 special (and as far as I know, those also used digital techniques for their coloring: someone with more knowledge by all means correct me if I'm wrong there). For another MUCH better "digital" stab at replicating the manga's overall coloring style, I'd also look more to the graphics for the PS2/Arcade game Super Dragon Ball Z (which absolutely NAILS the manga's overall aesthetic... with 3D models no less!).

Generally though, I'm not surprised that the 2008 special looked the way it did: 2003/2004 to 2008/2009 or thereabouts (roughly speaking) in general was just NOT an overall good looking period for a LOT of different anime projects. There are standout exceptions to that of course (there generally always are: Sword of the Stranger for example came out in 2007, right smack dab during the middle of this phase, and looks damn gorgeous: Dead Leaves (2004), Mind Game (also 2004), and Trava (2003) are also flat out stunning looking standout anime titles from that era); but much more typically, at least in my experience throughout that whole era, those years for whatever reason seemed like they tended to contain a whole TON of anime projects whose general animation (and coloring) were just gaudy and hideously chintzy-looking, as if the total animation budget amounted to the rough price of coffee and a bagel. The 2008 Dragon Ball Jump Special being no exception to this.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby emperior » Sun May 20, 2018 7:25 am

JazzMazz wrote:With this new reference, how do people believe the new designs stack up with the others from previous era's?

The designs by Maeda, Z Yamamuro and Shintani are the best. So keep in mind that I consider them to be close one to another. As for the others, I can easily rank them. By the way I think that, aroumd somewhere, there should also be other designs from DBZ.
From best to worst it is:

1 - Shintani We still need to see more of it in motion, and I may be biased because of how much I’m hyped, but the design looks just perfect to me. In fact, it’s everything I ever wanted Goku’s model sheet to be. It is simple, looks like it came straight from Toriyama’s manga, has perfect anatomy, perfect hair... everything is perfect. The lack of highlights, especially on the hair, was something I really, really wanted for years, ever since Super started. And I must say, I’m so glad the shiny characters are gone. The muscles are also exactly how I wanted them: Goku is not anorexic, but he is not overly buffed up too. He looks just like a martial artist, and the muscles look relaxed and not like they are cramping as in Yamamuro’s recent designs.

2 - Maeda A classic, awesome design in the art style of Toriyama during the 23rd Budokai era. This design doesn’t just look like it came straight from the manga, because it actually really came from the manga. It’s round and extremely simple. How can you not love this style? It has always been among my favorites. Although I must say I prefer Shintani’s muscles, as they look sleeker.

3 - Yamamuro Z Very nice design. There’s not much to say, but there’s obviously a reason why this period is considered the golden standard by most of the fans. I prefer Maeda and Shintani, but I would have been equally happy if they brought back this exact same design, and I am too a fan of Yuya Takahashi’s work in Super, who reminded us of how gorgeous Movie 8-13 and Buu arc were.

4 - Yamamuro 2008 I like this design. It has some issues such as the overly defined muscles, bad nose and fat face, but it’s still a good design by itself and it looked good in the special. The colors were also great too.

5 - Nakatsuru GT Decent design, but the face’s expression is strange. It looks similar to Toriyama’s style in the latest chapters though.

6 - Yamamuro RoF Bad design. Overly detailed, stiff and with bad highlights. The face too is bad, but at least the anatomy looks accurate.

7 - Yamamuro 2010 Same as above, but somehow looks even worse because of the bad posture.

8 - Yamamuro BoG The worst of them all. The clothes look bad, and the anatomy and posture are even worse than in the 2010 one. I still can’t believe this was the design used throughout the majority of Super’s episodes.

EDIT: I found two new designs:
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Attitudefan » Sun May 20, 2018 4:54 pm

emperior wrote:I know you were referring to that particular design, which is why I decided to post the Toriyama drawing Maeda was referencing when making the design.
I am also quite tired of people who seem to forget how Dragon Ball used to look like pre-Buu arc, or how Toriyama’s manga looks. It’s incredible how some people even like Toyotaro’s art style and Yamamuro’s but don’t like Shintani’s, despite him having nailed down not only the anatomy and colors, but Toriyama’s style too. I always read the fans crying for DBZ here and there and how better then Super it looked, and when we finally get designs similar to DBZ ones, people cry it’s not Buu arc and that it’s not Yamamuro. Honestly, fuck these fans. Dragon Ball isn’t Buu arc.

HELL YES!!!! Dragon Ball is so much more than the Buu arc. The overly stiff hair, the missing clavicle bone, the large jaws that are not anatomically correct, the lack of line weight, the characters standing with a hunched posture and their heads jutting forwards, overly shiny characters, and lack of physics to the clothing is purely Buu arc material and has plagued Dragon Ball art ever since!

The re-imaginings of Dragon Ball made in the Yamamuro/Buu arc designs break my heart all the time man! One thing I miss, and you see it in early Toriyama and Maeda era, is how the hair isn't always exactly in place with the same amount of spikes and the bangs falling in a specific way. I was recently studying Toriyama's art from the 80s and am amazed at how well he conveys how people's hair grows differently such as widow's peaks, natural parting in people's hair are different and grow in a certain way that pertain to that pattern of hair growth, which also includes how it falls and looks in certain styles. This has been LOST when Yamamuro's era took over! Everything is so rigid and stiff and the hair doesn't have that natural look to it.

I also miss how the character's expressions used to exaggerate: Dead Zone is the best film for great facial expressions in the Z portion. There is just such class and style throughout the whole film and the production staff wasn't afraid to play with colours and expressions. Everything nowadays is all so plain looking with a standard colour palette and safe expressions that do not stray far from the base model.


My only complaint with the new designs is how they are still missing the clavicle bone. Freeza era still had the clavical intact. Plus, I wish they would go back to normal looking collars cuts on the shirts. Notice how Maeda (and early Toriyama) drew the collar on the shirt? It is much smaller and has a better balance to the overall design. Plus, with it being smaller, it is easier to animate, but that is just a side note.


I'll always go back to this example regarding clothing physics and the knowledge of how to use shading properly, which Yamamuro has always failed at even back in the 90s:

Maeda
Image
Notice how the cloth slumps around Piccolo's head and shoulders?


Yamamuro
Image
Clothing is not really interacting with Piccolo's head and shoulders. They look pasted on top of Piccolo like in Photoshop. Plus, the shiny colours begin to seep into the colour palette, making Piccolo look like his skin is plastic.

This is still my absolute favourite style and era of Dragon Ball:

Image
Love how they look so relaxed. To me, their expressions, their relaxed stances, the overall style just looks very convincing to me. I almost feel like I could talk to them :lol:

Yamamuro and the Buu designs lack this relaxed look!

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby emperior » Mon May 21, 2018 10:41 am

Attitudefan wrote:
emperior wrote:I know you were referring to that particular design, which is why I decided to post the Toriyama drawing Maeda was referencing when making the design.
I am also quite tired of people who seem to forget how Dragon Ball used to look like pre-Buu arc, or how Toriyama’s manga looks. It’s incredible how some people even like Toyotaro’s art style and Yamamuro’s but don’t like Shintani’s, despite him having nailed down not only the anatomy and colors, but Toriyama’s style too. I always read the fans crying for DBZ here and there and how better then Super it looked, and when we finally get designs similar to DBZ ones, people cry it’s not Buu arc and that it’s not Yamamuro. Honestly, fuck these fans. Dragon Ball isn’t Buu arc.

HELL YES!!!! Dragon Ball is so much more than the Buu arc. The overly stiff hair, the missing clavicle bone, the large jaws that are not anatomically correct, the lack of line weight, the characters standing with a hunched posture and their heads jutting forwards, overly shiny characters, and lack of physics to the clothing is purely Buu arc material and has plagued Dragon Ball art ever since!

The re-imaginings of Dragon Ball made in the Yamamuro/Buu arc designs break my heart all the time man! One thing I miss, and you see it in early Toriyama and Maeda era, is how the hair isn't always exactly in place with the same amount of spikes and the bangs falling in a specific way. I was recently studying Toriyama's art from the 80s and am amazed at how well he conveys how people's hair grows differently such as widow's peaks, natural parting in people's hair are different and grow in a certain way that pertain to that pattern of hair growth, which also includes how it falls and looks in certain styles. This has been LOST when Yamamuro's era took over! Everything is so rigid and stiff and the hair doesn't have that natural look to it.

I also miss how the character's expressions used to exaggerate: Dead Zone is the best film for great facial expressions in the Z portion. There is just such class and style throughout the whole film and the production staff wasn't afraid to play with colours and expressions. Everything nowadays is all so plain looking with a standard colour palette and safe expressions that do not stray far from the base model.


My only complaint with the new designs is how they are still missing the clavicle bone. Freeza era still had the clavical intact. Plus, I wish they would go back to normal looking collars cuts on the shirts. Notice how Maeda (and early Toriyama) drew the collar on the shirt? It is much smaller and has a better balance to the overall design. Plus, with it being smaller, it is easier to animate, but that is just a side note.


I'll always go back to this example regarding clothing physics and the knowledge of how to use shading properly, which Yamamuro has always failed at even back in the 90s:

Maeda
Image
Notice how the cloth slumps around Piccolo's head and shoulders?


Yamamuro
Image
Clothing is not really interacting with Piccolo's head and shoulders. They look pasted on top of Piccolo like in Photoshop. Plus, the shiny colours begin to seep into the colour palette, making Piccolo look like his skin is plastic.

This is still my absolute favourite style and era of Dragon Ball:

Image
Love how they look so relaxed. To me, their expressions, their relaxed stances, the overall style just looks very convincing to me. I almost feel like I could talk to them :lol:

Yamamuro and the Buu designs lack this relaxed look!

I surely agree with you, although I wouldn’t really call that Buu arc Piccolo bad. But yeah, I too prefer the more demonic looking Piccolo from the 23rd BT to Saiyan arc era, and I also mostly dislike the highlights in animated products, especially when it makes little sense. I don’t really miss the clavicle bone, but I wouldn’t mind it it they drew it more often.
One thing I surely 100% agree with you is that early DBZ had far more interesting and better designs than the ones saw in Buu arc, and I too feel the whole relaxed look of the example you provided.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby JacobYBM » Mon May 21, 2018 11:28 am

That Majin Buu arc Piccolo looks terribly stiff, yowza. You can really see where that expressionless problem began to creep in with Yamamuro's drawings, even as early that back then. His age might've started being a factor but I also have to wonder if working on the films might've hurt him, too. Dragon Ball GT tried to increase the amount of detail in the details and then when he took over for movies #11-17 he was constantly correcting other styles and trying to unify them by himself while also making detailed drawings that could match merchandise and supposedly match Toriyama.

The older Maeda Minoru models were pretty nice. He and Satou Masaki were drawing the characters in manners that felt very relaxed back then. In a lot of ways I feel like it's close to what Tate Naoki does now when he isn't corrected. The line thinness and great round features make his characters feel very loose and relaxed, not tight and bunched up. It really makes me wish Tate could've drawn his own models like he did for One Piece and Disk Wars: Avengers.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby emperior » Mon May 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Maybe Yamamuro started to make his characters look like toys to sell merchandise. He really seems to like all this merchandising thing, considering how he decided to step down from Super to focus on Heroes and Dragon Ball’s merchandising.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Attitudefan » Mon May 21, 2018 5:20 pm

Masaki Satou did not want to work on Super because he felt the designs and the plot was a bit strange. He has posted some recent Dragon Ball sketches and he is still awesome! Him and Maeda and their team were truly fantastic and respected the works of the original manga.

A video in French by DBTimes goes into great detail on Satou's involvement with DB and beyond (yes I can speak French decently). Please check out this guy's video on Satou. It is essentially a French Ajay :D It goes into real depth of all his work and recent interviews. Satou's thoughts on animating for Super are around 8:30. In summary, he is not totally interested on working with Super due to the designs and he thinks the story is not the same as the original series. So, he is not totally interested but does not deny he will never work on Dragon Ball again. On another note, I really think it is cool that other animators really felt the impact of Satou's work with Maeda, as the scene where Goku stomps Drum made the other animators want to step up their game as well. Neat tidbits there.

Here are pictures drawn by him recently:

Image
Image

His style has evolved for sure, but with a good character designer like Maeda, his skills really shine through.

emperior wrote:Maybe Yamamuro started to make his characters look like toys to sell merchandise. He really seems to like all this merchandising thing, considering how he decided to step down from Super to focus on Heroes and Dragon Ball’s merchandising.

That wouldn't surprise me. Actually, for all his faults, that is pretty smart of him if that is the case. To be fair, Toriyama's style did change during that period too--which I don't deny--but the series has different aesthetics during each arc which is lost with Yamamuro's dictatorial practices on character designs. Today, his work is so far removed from Toriyama.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby JazzMazz » Tue May 22, 2018 4:44 pm

High resolution scans of the new designs for Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo came out.

With a clearer look at the designs, how have peoples opinions changed?


Even more updated reference.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Baggie_Saiyan » Tue May 22, 2018 5:22 pm

emperior wrote:Maybe Yamamuro started to make his characters look like toys to sell merchandise. He really seems to like all this merchandising thing, considering how he decided to step down from Super to focus on Heroes and Dragon Ball’s merchandising.

You maybe on to something before BoG there was hardy new material other than video games I guess the only thing that continued was merchandise. And unfortunately that's become his default mode now.

For DBS besides covers and the occasional KV a majority of the merchandising art has been shared between bad promo artistand good promo artist (moreso the former unfortunately) honestly as problematic as Yamamuro's art can be I'd vastly prefer that over what we've had for the majority of DBS.

For figures the Yamamuro eyes aren't as problematic as they are in the anime and recently like the past year or so sculptors started additing curves to the eyes nothing as drastic as what Takahashi did in the anime but it's subtle enough to look good. Speaking of, Urota came to DB (who's real surname coincidentally is also Takahashi) for August's DB Match Makers & went back to the old designs and just look at those eyes! With the new movie designs I cannot wait to see what some of the sculptors do with the movie designs, right now 2018 has been nothing but extraordinary the best DB has ever had and what better way to top it off then figures based on the movie designs in December!
Top releases of each month to look forward too:
September: DBS Son Goku FES!! Stage 8 (sculpted by Hiroyuki Nakazawa) PROTOTYPE FINAL VERSION
October: DBS WCD Vol.2: Goku vs Jiren, #17 & Super Shenron (assumed sculpted by Hiroyuki Nakazawa)
November: DBGT Kamehameha x10 Son Goku (sculpted by Satoshi Suzuki)
December: DBS Movie Ichiban Kuji Prize A Super Saiyan Broly Full Power, Prize D SSGSS Son Goku (sculptors currently unknown)
Ultimate Soldier I Anger Broly (assumed sculpted by Hiroyuki Nakazawa)
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Super related merchandise and figures Album of SSGSS shots Album of Ultra Instinct shots Album of Ultra Instinct "Omen" shots Album of SSG shots

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby Khin » Wed May 23, 2018 1:42 am

JazzMazz wrote:High resolution scans of the new designs for Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo came out.

With a clearer look at the designs, how have peoples opinions changed?

I think the Goku's actual design is definitely a step up compared to the first one we saw initially. Admittedly I wasn't nearly as high on Shintani as some people at the beginning, but that's changed. They finally looks relaxed and motion-friendly which is something lots of people shit at Yamamuro for. Also, those ugly hole noses are finally gone.

Shintani's design to me feels like a "cuter" version of Toriyama's artstyle during Freeza arc. I'm starting to wonder if they based the new designs on that arc, because not only that they're similar design-wise, the outfits are also pretty much the same as well.

Also, here's a better comparison picture (from Ajay on Twitter):

penguintruth wrote:The Super Saiyan aura sound effect is actually taken from Hironobu Kageyama powering up during the recording of the OP.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Postby JazzMazz » Wed May 23, 2018 2:03 am

Khin wrote:
Also, here's a better comparison picture (from Ajay on Twitter):


Thanks, I'll use that picture for comparison down the line.


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