Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed May 23, 2018 12:28 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:Does it bother anyone? Well obviously you, so I guess you answered your own question. If you aren't just looking for people to agree with you I can sincerely say, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, well besides the part where oolong was going to drug and molest her. That was kinda creepy but Oolong was initially introduced as a creepy character who we initially are led to believe kidnap young girls and take them to his possible sex dungeon and his reward was becoming a diarrhea slave.


It's ok to be bothered by it but only if you realize that people that do enjoy the humor behind it all shouldn't care that you do. I got news for you, young girls aren't going to the mall and school in short shorts with their butt cheeks sticking out and in razor thin leggings with thongs because of Bulma. The sexualization of women are a deeper societal issues whose root cause isn't manga. It's like when there was complaints against some sort of anime in Japan and the Japanese women protested the protestor holding signs saying "3D womens rights over 2D". Fighting for Bulma's rights won't change a thing at all, if anything it's just self serving and childish.

I'll admit if you were a girl that escaped that norm and went into manga and saw Bulma and thought, "oh wow what a cute blue haired smart girl" and immediately want to dot on her, it's going to be a sad and rude awakening when you find out how hella of sexualized and comic relief her character becomes. What do I say to that? Well "tough luck". There are millions of people in this world and all media shouldn't conform to one method to please one person. To say dragonball fans should never of gotten Roshi as we know and love because of someone elses hang up is wrong. If you're that person with that issue then I say put down the manga and read something else. Hell Ami or whatever her real name from Sailormoon, fits that role nicely as your make believe role model. You know, perhaps some weak guy dreamt of being a hero and then read dragon ball and found that everyone was a muscle freak. Should dragon ball be changed to make every problem solved with a math equation?

Also quick note, all you're showing is your societal norms by mentioning she's 16 and I'm not quite sure where you hail from since age of consent is about 15+ in a lot of places including some in US where it's 16 in some states and majority is at 17 with few set to 18. I also think it's kinda silly how you mention his age and point out how he's like OMG 100s, and?? You're point is? Are you saying it would be okay if Roshi was 28? That's immature. Do you even know why you feel that way? It's a shame because I know it first hand and from the other way around. People care about age difference only because of what they personally feel is visually appealing to them not the person in the relationship but what they feel is disgusting. Trust me if you were 10 years older than someone (and I was ) and dated someone but where attractive and looked as what people decide is visually pleasing and "young" no one, not her mom dad brother or sister would give a damn. But you know Roshi is bald and have a beard, him looking at her privates is look totalling disgusting but it would be like totally legit cool if Yamcha did it, am I right?
I was never looking for people to agree with anything. The reason I asked this was because I wanted to see what people here thought about a 16 year old character being sexualized. I was never making any statement on anything. I just wanted to see what people thought of it.

Also, when did I ever suggest that Roshi’s actions would be alright if he were younger? That’s a strawman. I brought up Roshi’s age because I wanted to see what people thought about having a grown man be sexually attracted to a 16 year old girl for laughs.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by kemuri07 » Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:Does it bother anyone? Well obviously you, so I guess you answered your own question. If you aren't just looking for people to agree with you I can sincerely say, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, well besides the part where oolong was going to drug and molest her. That was kinda creepy but Oolong was initially introduced as a creepy character who we initially are led to believe kidnap young girls and take them to his possible sex dungeon and his reward was becoming a diarrhea slave.


It's ok to be bothered by it but only if you realize that people that do enjoy the humor behind it all shouldn't care that you do. I got news for you, young girls aren't going to the mall and school in short shorts with their butt cheeks sticking out and in razor thin leggings with thongs because of Bulma. The sexualization of women are a deeper societal issues whose root cause isn't manga. It's like when there was complaints against some sort of anime in Japan and the Japanese women protested the protestor holding signs saying "3D womens rights over 2D". Fighting for Bulma's rights won't change a thing at all, if anything it's just self serving and childish.

I'll admit if you were a girl that escaped that norm and went into manga and saw Bulma and thought, "oh wow what a cute blue haired smart girl" and immediately want to dot on her, it's going to be a sad and rude awakening when you find out how hella of sexualized and comic relief her character becomes. What do I say to that? Well "tough luck". There are millions of people in this world and all media shouldn't conform to one method to please one person. To say dragonball fans should never of gotten Roshi as we know and love because of someone elses hang up is wrong. If you're that person with that issue then I say put down the manga and read something else. Hell Ami or whatever her real name from Sailormoon, fits that role nicely as your make believe role model. You know, perhaps some weak guy dreamt of being a hero and then read dragon ball and found that everyone was a muscle freak. Should dragon ball be changed to make every problem solved with a math equation?

Also quick note, all you're showing is your societal norms by mentioning she's 16 and I'm not quite sure where you hail from since age of consent is about 15+ in a lot of places including some in US where it's 16 in some states and majority is at 17 with few set to 18. I also think it's kinda silly how you mention his age and point out how he's like OMG 100s, and?? You're point is? Are you saying it would be okay if Roshi was 28? That's immature. Do you even know why you feel that way? It's a shame because I know it first hand and from the other way around. People care about age difference only because of what they personally feel is visually appealing to them not the person in the relationship but what they feel is disgusting. Trust me if you were 10 years older than someone (and I was ) and dated someone but where attractive and looked as what people decide is visually pleasing and "young" no one, not her mom dad brother or sister would give a damn. But you know Roshi is bald and have a beard, him looking at her privates is look totalling disgusting but it would be like totally legit cool if Yamcha did it, am I right?
heh wut.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by kemuri07 » Wed May 23, 2018 1:09 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Brettjr25 wrote:Does it bother anyone? Well obviously you, so I guess you answered your own question. If you aren't just looking for people to agree with you I can sincerely say, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, well besides the part where oolong was going to drug and molest her. That was kinda creepy but Oolong was initially introduced as a creepy character who we initially are led to believe kidnap young girls and take them to his possible sex dungeon and his reward was becoming a diarrhea slave.


It's ok to be bothered by it but only if you realize that people that do enjoy the humor behind it all shouldn't care that you do. I got news for you, young girls aren't going to the mall and school in short shorts with their butt cheeks sticking out and in razor thin leggings with thongs because of Bulma. The sexualization of women are a deeper societal issues whose root cause isn't manga. It's like when there was complaints against some sort of anime in Japan and the Japanese women protested the protestor holding signs saying "3D womens rights over 2D". Fighting for Bulma's rights won't change a thing at all, if anything it's just self serving and childish.

I'll admit if you were a girl that escaped that norm and went into manga and saw Bulma and thought, "oh wow what a cute blue haired smart girl" and immediately want to dot on her, it's going to be a sad and rude awakening when you find out how hella of sexualized and comic relief her character becomes. What do I say to that? Well "tough luck". There are millions of people in this world and all media shouldn't conform to one method to please one person. To say dragonball fans should never of gotten Roshi as we know and love because of someone elses hang up is wrong. If you're that person with that issue then I say put down the manga and read something else. Hell Ami or whatever her real name from Sailormoon, fits that role nicely as your make believe role model. You know, perhaps some weak guy dreamt of being a hero and then read dragon ball and found that everyone was a muscle freak. Should dragon ball be changed to make every problem solved with a math equation?

Also quick note, all you're showing is your societal norms by mentioning she's 16 and I'm not quite sure where you hail from since age of consent is about 15+ in a lot of places including some in US where it's 16 in some states and majority is at 17 with few set to 18. I also think it's kinda silly how you mention his age and point out how he's like OMG 100s, and?? You're point is? Are you saying it would be okay if Roshi was 28? That's immature. Do you even know why you feel that way? It's a shame because I know it first hand and from the other way around. People care about age difference only because of what they personally feel is visually appealing to them not the person in the relationship but what they feel is disgusting. Trust me if you were 10 years older than someone (and I was ) and dated someone but where attractive and looked as what people decide is visually pleasing and "young" no one, not her mom dad brother or sister would give a damn. But you know Roshi is bald and have a beard, him looking at her privates is look totalling disgusting but it would be like totally legit cool if Yamcha did it, am I right?
I was never looking for people to agree with anything. The reason I asked this was because I wanted to see what people here thought about a 16 year old character being sexualized. I was never making any statement on anything. I just wanted to see what people thought of it.

Also, when did I ever suggest that Roshi’s actions would be alright if he were younger? That’s a strawman. I brought up Roshi’s age because I wanted to see what people thought about having a grown man be sexually attracted to a 16 year old girl for laughs.
eh. Don't worry about it. Some of the kids get triggered at anything that's even remotely negative towards their favorite show.

They're fragile like that.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed May 23, 2018 4:13 pm

kemuri07 wrote:eh. Don't worry about it. Some of the kids get triggered at anything that's even remotely negative towards their favorite show.

They're fragile like that.
So your argument against the legitimate points Brettjr25 is raising, which WittyUsername is already discussing and questioning in an intelligent manner, is to jump in and say "them kids are easily triggered"?
Pretty childish, man.

Even if you were right, if the attitude you're describing resulted in legitimate points being raised, would the fact they came from someone irrationally jumping to the defence of their favourite show make those points less valid? I would say no.
I imagine that if someone took an irrationally defensive attitude about this discussion, then the points they would raise would likely also be irrational, and thus easily disputed with some critical thinking. However, declaring the person to be irrational doesn't accomplish this, and doesn't even begin to address the points they raise. If you really must question the person's rationality or motives, at least have the decency to do so as an additional point to a deconstruction/criticism of their argument.
Finally, even if someone is acting irrationally, they may very well raise a good point, and while it's easy to get lost in the flow of arguing against someone to the point that you just assume all their points have no real merit, and thus can be taken apart and criticised(I myself have fallen victim to this many times), if you refuse to admit someone you're arguing against could ever have any points with any merit, then you've basically reduced yourself to the level of your average politician.

In other words: Be nice. Insulting people won't get you anywhere in a serious discussion.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Gligarman » Wed May 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Gligarman wrote:As someone who's into bara I find the majority of the cast to be sexualized, so nope.
Wow, that's great to hear! Bara needs more friends.
Yes, yes it does! I guess Toriyama agrees though. Hell, Toppo was one of my favorite characters before he went God of Destruction. Now he's my wallpaper!

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri May 25, 2018 6:50 am

kemuri07 wrote:eh. Don't worry about it. Some of the kids get triggered at anything that's even remotely negative towards their favorite show.

They're fragile like that.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Ringworm128 » Sat May 26, 2018 12:49 am

It's worth noting that a study was done that showed being attracted to post-pubescent teens was fairly common it's just that people don't act on it whether for legal reasons, or moral reasons.
ABED wrote:Some people are mature for their age. That doesn't make them adults. I know people still mature into adulthood, but there's still a world of difference between a 16 and 18 year old.
There really isn't. I barely matured both physically or mentally when I turned 18 if I even did at all. It's such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's pretty much impossible for any development to happen unless you had some Earth shattering event happen to you.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by ABED » Sat May 26, 2018 8:14 am

ringworm128 wrote:It's worth noting that a study was done that showed being attracted to post-pubescent teens was fairly common it's just that people don't act on it whether for legal reasons, or moral reasons.
ABED wrote:Some people are mature for their age. That doesn't make them adults. I know people still mature into adulthood, but there's still a world of difference between a 16 and 18 year old.
There really isn't. I barely matured both physically or mentally when I turned 18 if I even did at all. It's such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's pretty much impossible for any development to happen unless you had some Earth shattering event happen to you.
There is. The amount of responsibility you take on between those ages is night and day. By 18 you've graduated high school, probably in college, there's a good chance you are living away from your parents. You can vote, you can join the military. It's two years, but in developmental period where two years is a lot.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat May 26, 2018 6:38 pm

ABED wrote:There is. The amount of responsibility you take on between those ages is night and day. By 18 you've graduated high school, probably in college, there's a good chance you are living away from your parents. You can vote, you can join the military. It's two years, but in developmental period where two years is a lot.
You're assuming quite a lot there. My brother was still living at home by age 20. Though, at the same time, he's always been very mature.
It all depends on the individual. Some are mature younger than others; people come in all different shapes and sizes, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally too.

Maybe part of it is down to the fact that UK law puts the age of consent at 16, and thus either that's lead morality to fit to that line, or generally-accepted morality dictated that law originally(I'm not a philosopher, a historian, a sociologist, or a psychologist, so I couldn't even begin to go into that detail), but I've never found the idea of Bulma being sexualised a problem. The only problem I have is the very clearly non-consensual advances towards her, which aren't unique to Bulma, or early Dragon Ball.
Stuff like her only outfit she could wear for a couple of episodes being the playboy bunny was something I've always thought was rather funny, and somewhat telling of Oolong's character. But, stuff like Oolong drugging Bulma, and intending to feel her up while she's asleep... Well, I've talked about how uncomfortable I find that stuff to watch. But again, you still have stuff like this in modern Dragon Ball; remember that whole thing at Tenshinhan's temple just before the Tournament Of Power? That girl Roshi was chasing around in the back rooms was very clearly not comfortable with whatever he was intending to do...

But, Bulma's figure being shown off by the camera, her outfits, etc. aren't a problem IMO. It's not like Transformers, where her characterisation is thrown aside in favour of "look at sexy lady", so I think it's fine.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Ringworm128 » Sat May 26, 2018 6:49 pm

ABED wrote:
ringworm128 wrote:It's worth noting that a study was done that showed being attracted to post-pubescent teens was fairly common it's just that people don't act on it whether for legal reasons, or moral reasons.
ABED wrote:Some people are mature for their age. That doesn't make them adults. I know people still mature into adulthood, but there's still a world of difference between a 16 and 18 year old.
There really isn't. I barely matured both physically or mentally when I turned 18 if I even did at all. It's such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's pretty much impossible for any development to happen unless you had some Earth shattering event happen to you.
There is. The amount of responsibility you take on between those ages is night and day. By 18 you've graduated high school, probably in college, there's a good chance you are living away from your parents. You can vote, you can join the military. It's two years, but in developmental period where two years is a lot.
But they're only things set by law. Of course you're going to finish school at 18; that's how long school goes for. Over here you can join the military at 16 does that automatically make teens in Australia more mature. And none of these things really equate to mental development except for learning responsibility. If a 13 year old somehow graduated, got a job and moved out would that make them ready for sex?

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by ABED » Sat May 26, 2018 6:55 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:There is. The amount of responsibility you take on between those ages is night and day. By 18 you've graduated high school, probably in college, there's a good chance you are living away from your parents. You can vote, you can join the military. It's two years, but in developmental period where two years is a lot.
You're assuming quite a lot there. My brother was still living at home by age 20. Though, at the same time, he's always been very mature.
It all depends on the individual. Some are mature younger than others; people come in all different shapes and sizes, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally too.

Maybe part of it is down to the fact that UK law puts the age of consent at 16, and thus either that's lead morality to fit to that line, or generally-accepted morality dictated that law originally(I'm not a philosopher, a historian, a sociologist, or a psychologist, so I couldn't even begin to go into that detail), but I've never found the idea of Bulma being sexualised a problem. The only problem I have is the very clearly non-consensual advances towards her, which aren't unique to Bulma, or early Dragon Ball.
Stuff like her only outfit she could wear for a couple of episodes being the playboy bunny was something I've always thought was rather funny, and somewhat telling of Oolong's character. But, stuff like Oolong drugging Bulma, and intending to feel her up while she's asleep... Well, I've talked about how uncomfortable I find that stuff to watch. But again, you still have stuff like this in modern Dragon Ball; remember that whole thing at Tenshinhan's temple just before the Tournament Of Power? That girl Roshi was chasing around in the back rooms was very clearly not comfortable with whatever he was intending to do...
You're using anecdotal evidence. I'm talking about averages here, not any one particular case.

And it's not the law that lead to that ethical view, it's the other way around. Laws don't dictate ethics, otherwise there would be no such thing as an immoral law, which clearly there are.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat May 26, 2018 7:08 pm

ABED wrote:You're using anecdotal evidence.
In contrast to your complete and utter lack of any evidence.
ABED wrote:And it's not the law that lead to that ethical view, it's the other way around. Laws don't dictate ethics, otherwise there would be no such thing as an immoral law, which clearly there are.
Allow me to quote myself for a moment:
Robo4900 wrote:either that's lead morality to fit to that line, or generally-accepted morality dictated that law originally(I'm not a philosopher, a historian, a sociologist, or a psychologist, so I couldn't even begin to go into that detail)
So...
At this point, I feel compelled to ask you if you're a philosopher, a historian, a sociologist, or a psychologist.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by ABED » Sat May 26, 2018 7:16 pm

In contrast to your complete and utter lack of any evidence.
There is no contrast, it's not evidence. You've just made a claim based on of all people a relative. ONE relative. In statistics, that's called a sampling error.

I think we're going beyond the question and it's starting to feel personal, so I'm politely taking my leave.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat May 26, 2018 7:45 pm

ABED wrote:I think we're going beyond the question and it's starting to feel personal, so I'm politely taking my leave.
Ah, so I win. :wink:

On a serious note, given the fact you completely missed what I said regarding whether morality determines law or not, I get the feeling you weren't even arguing, just trying to find stuff in my rebuttal to nitpick. For one thing, this does indeed mean that now is probably a good time to bow out of the discussion, but the other thing is that perhaps you should keep this in mind in future discussions; I'm not mad at you or anything, but it's easy to get frustrated if you put together a well-thought-out response to something someone's said in a discussion, only to be responded to with nitpicks about your methods, so... Maybe in future, you might want to keep this in mind.
To be clear, I don't care whether or not I "Win" this discussion, only that either the truth is found, or that people's opinions are sufficiently challenged and explored, so this rather competitive attitude you've taken in attempting to simply "Win" the argument, rather than actually engaging in the discussion is rather destructive to the points you're raising, and the discussion in general.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh at all here, I'm not trying to criticse you; all I'm saying is that perhaps part of why it's feeling personal is that instead of discussing the actual points raised, you're nitpicking the person and their methods, so maybe you'd have had a better experience here if you'd either taken the time to think over what was said and responded to that, agreed to disagree, or just walked away and either let someone else respond, or left it alone entirely.

Apologies if I've overstepped my bounds here at all.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat May 26, 2018 8:51 pm

I don’t have much to add to any sort of conversation about whether or not a person can officially be deemed ‘mature’ at 18, but I guess I’ll probably point out that society (Western society anyway) still has a tendency to treat 18 year olds as kids. The U.S. doesn’t even allow people that age to purchase alcohol. Hell, I was still in high school when I turned 18.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Ringworm128 » Sat May 26, 2018 9:20 pm

I think that comes from the fact most people treat kids as dumber than what they actually are and usually hold them back 2-3 years than what they could be capable of . If I had a dollar for every time I thought as a kid "FFS I wasn't born yesterday, how dumb do they think I am" or saw someone with their kid and thought "Give your kid some credit." I'd have a substantial amount of money.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Dr. Casey » Sat May 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Just to chip in on one thing (and I certainly don't mean this as any sort of offense to ABED, who's stated to have started feeling attacked), 18 definitely isn't the standard age for kids in the United States to leave home anymore - that's more of a 20th century thing. The average nowadays is around 25.
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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Zephyr » Sun May 27, 2018 4:53 pm

ABED wrote:By 18 you've graduated high school, probably in college, there's a good chance you are living away from your parents. You can vote, you can join the military. It's two years, but in developmental period where two years is a lot.
None of that has anything to do with development. Being handed a piece of paper and being allowed to do certain things doesn't in any way entail that any significant internal development has occurred. Just because that is where the line is drawn in society doesn't mean that it reflects something in nature, yet you're citing the place where the line is drawn in society as evidence that it's where something happens in nature, thus justifying the drawing of the line in that spot. That's circular reasoning.
ABED wrote:there's still a world of difference between a 16 and 18 year old.
ringworm128 wrote:There really isn't....It's such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's pretty much impossible for any development to happen unless you had some Earth shattering event happen to you.
As for this: if we want to look at what lines nature actually draws: according to Wikipedia, puberty can end as early as 15 (in girls) or 16 (in boys) and as late as 17, but the brain is not done developing until 25. Depending on the person, 16 and 18 can indeed see a world of difference, depending on the completion of puberty. 17 and 18 seems to see much less of a difference, since puberty is already complete at both ages, while the brain is still incomplete at both. 18 and 25 seem to entail more of a difference than 17 and 18. And, in cases where puberty is completed earlier rather than later, 18 and and 25 would likewise have a more relevant difference (in nature) than 16 and 18 would. In other words, it varies from person to person.

For some, aging from 16 to 18 wouldn't see much internal change. For others, it could see a great deal. So I don't think it's as black and white, in either direction, as you guys are treating it. I don't think there's any indication one way or the other if Bulma is still undergoing puberty at the start of the series, leaving it open to interpretation. So I think the age thing is ultimately less of an issue than the normalization of sexual assault in general. I guess your interpretation of Bulma's completion of puberty, or lack-thereof, comes down to how poor of taste you prefer your Roshi gags to be in.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by Shaddy » Sun May 27, 2018 7:46 pm

Image

To give my thoughts on the issue, I don't think Bulma's age is really much of a factor in this fictional story when she's presented as a sexually mature adult with her own agency and capabilities. The only change she really goes through visually between the end of Red Ribbon and the start of the second tournament is her hair, and basically nothing about her personality is any different. The only factor that's different is her not being in school (which never really made much of a difference) and the number attached to her, which in this story and with this little change to the character otherwise, could be anything and it'd still be believable. As for the old guy, I don't really see a point in calling it "worse" to sexually assault her at one age or another, because you shouldn't have any sort of tolerance for this sort of stuff, period. It's not as if the nature of the gags (well, "gags") changes with her age nor does either of their reactions to it, so if he's being fucking shitty I don't see any reason to look at an eighteen year-old Bulma and say "well that's not as bad", it's all the worst.

So yeah basically what zephyr said but I attached a stupid meme to it.

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Re: Does the sexualization of Bulma at the start of the series bother anyone?

Post by KBABZ » Sun May 27, 2018 8:02 pm

Shaddy wrote:The only change she really goes through visually between the end of Red Ribbon and the start of the second tournament is her hair, and basically nothing about her personality is any different.
This may be true but I disagree in one particular area: her attitude towards Goku. Over the course of the Pilaf Arc, she goes from using Goku as a cheap bodyguard with freakish levels of strength and disgusting habits to really growing quite fond of him, and one of my favourite moments in the series is when the two reunite early in the Red Ribbon arc and she's genuinely happy to see him again. (and on a more minor note, Red Ribbon is where we're introduced to Bulma's gadgeteering skills, where before she just possessed cool tech but didn't explicitly make any of it)

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