New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

[coola]

If i had to compare Super to something Star Wars related, it would be Clone Wars series (Not made by Tartakovsky, newer one ) Stuck in interquel era, fanservice (Bringing Darth Maul back), retcons (Then again, that was always Lucas problem, he kept butchering Original Trilogy too)

[Cure Dragon 255]

Oooooooh. SOMEONE JUST GOT TOLD.


but you don’t like TLJ, so, you know, we can’t be friends.

OH SNAP!

...lol

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

It doesn't matter what kind of movie it was, 700 million less is 700 million less. You can spin it however you want but the end result is the same, it made 30%+ less than the one before it.

This comment completely ignores historic context, The Force Awakens (2015) was the first Star Wars movie in over a decade since Revenge of The Sith (2005), it was marketed as a return to form of what fans remembered about OG Star Wars trillogy, a return of OG cast and OG filmaking of style, that's what had people excited and went to see TFA, innevitably you can't please everyone, some didn't like what they saw and that translated to some people not wanting to see the next movie, as well as sequels having a tendency to have less audience than its predecesors) which brings us to The Last Jedi 30% drop from the last movie. Same thing happened with The Empire Strikes Back, which had a 44.88% drop (or over 732M less money) from A New Hope.

[Kakarotto92]

I don't know about that, if anything modern DB and new SW are very similiar in the sense that both made a shitload of money yet completely divided the two fanbases.

Albeit, Super and new SW get criticised for very different (almost opposite) reasons.

[foxfang4]

I think this thread went off track with arguing if the new Star Wars (or DB Super) was good or not. The true cause of the thread is to tell Dragon Ball fans that they can call themselves very lucky have seen their iconic characters (with their original voice actors no less) + the spirit of the show they loved return, instead of being pushed aside in favour of a young cast of characters and a socio-political agenda. Star Wars fans will never get to see Han, Luke and Leia lead a narrative together. In fact, they didn't even get to see them together (which is unforgivable). Instead, we got to see Nozawa, Horikawa and co on top at least once more time. I think it's fascinating how differently Disney and TOEI handled the return of their most iconic properties.

[ABED]

You basically have to make way for a new generation in live action, eventually.

they didn't even get to see them together (which is unforgivable).

It wasn't a sin.

I don't know about that, if anything modern DB and new SW are very similiar in the sense that both made a shitload of money yet completely divided the two fanbases.

Fanbases such as DB and SW are rarely united.

[Kataphrut]

I think this thread went off track with arguing if the new Star Wars (or DB Super) was good or not. The true cause of the thread is to tell Dragon Ball fans that they can call themselves very lucky have seen their iconic characters (with their original voice actors no less) + the spirit of the show they loved return, instead of being pushed aside in favour of a young cast of characters and a socio-political agenda. Star Wars fans will never get to see Han, Luke and Leia lead a narrative together. In fact, they didn't even get to see them together (which is unforgivable). Instead, we got to see Nozawa, Horikawa and co on top at least once more time. I think it's fascinating how differently Disney and TOEI handled the return of their most iconic properties.

Did you...really expect Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher to headline a live-action blockbuster film? Again, that was a bad idea BEFORE one of them died. Dream up whatever "socio-political agenda" you want, but this was always going to have new characters and younger actors because the classic cast is too old to headline it. It's quite different from Nozawa and co continuing to reprise their roles when that's much more feasible with voice actors, plus they never stopped playing them, whereas Hamill, Ford and Fisher haven't played Luke, Han and Leia since the 80s.

[ABED]

Also, it depends what you think the "spirit of the show" is. That's a concept open to a lot of interpretations.

[Gaffer Tape]

I think this thread went off track with arguing if the new Star Wars (or DB Super) was good or not. The true cause of the thread is to tell Dragon Ball fans that they can call themselves very lucky have seen their iconic characters (with their original voice actors no less) + the spirit of the show they loved return, instead of being pushed aside in favour of a young cast of characters and a socio-political agenda. Star Wars fans will never get to see Han, Luke and Leia lead a narrative together. In fact, they didn't even get to see them together (which is unforgivable). Instead, we got to see Nozawa, Horikawa and co on top at least once more time. I think it's fascinating how differently Disney and TOEI handled the return of their most iconic properties.

I don't think that's really getting off track. I mean, you're presenting a topic that makes a supposition: that DB Super fans are luckier than Disney SW fans because of certain reasons. Whether we agree or disagree if that supposition is true first depends on whether or not we even agree with those underlying reasons. Because if we don't, it's going to be impossible for us to even relate to the question the way you want us to. If I think that DB Super is a bunch of boring, vacuous fanservice that became almost unbearable to sit through towards the end, while I find the Disney SW movies to be flawed but overall enjoyable pieces of entertainment that wash the taste of the terrible prequels out of my mouth, and that those points outweigh the supposed benefit of getting the see the cast together one more time, then how am I supposed to answer this?

I don't feel this so-called socio-political agenda. While I'd rather all three of the main heroes not be killed off (I'd be happier if the next movie announced Leia had retired happily to the planet of hunky cabana boys), I was pleased with Han Solo's death and over the moon with Luke's. I thought they were great, and that overrode my initial annoyance that they died. Would I have been happier if Han and Luke had gotten a scene together? In theory, yes, unless it sucked and made me wish they hadn't bothered. But for the most part, I got what I wanted anyway. I saw Han and Leia together. I saw Luke and Leia together. I saw all three of them get to do really awesome things that I really enjoyed. I mean, come on. Outside of the first movie, Han and Luke never had that much screen time together in the original trilogy anyway, so the fact that these movies continue that trend is not really the end of the world. Conversely, does the fact that I get to hear Nozawa and Horikawa together make up for the fact that Super is an absolute mess of storytelling? Of course not. I can watch any old Z episode and get the same thing. I could have lived without more Star Wars, and I could have lived without more Dragon Ball. But after seeing both sets of new products? I definitely would have preferred not having more Dragon Ball.

[foxfang4]

I think this thread went off track with arguing if the new Star Wars (or DB Super) was good or not. The true cause of the thread is to tell Dragon Ball fans that they can call themselves very lucky have seen their iconic characters (with their original voice actors no less) + the spirit of the show they loved return, instead of being pushed aside in favour of a young cast of characters and a socio-political agenda. Star Wars fans will never get to see Han, Luke and Leia lead a narrative together. In fact, they didn't even get to see them together (which is unforgivable). Instead, we got to see Nozawa, Horikawa and co on top at least once more time. I think it's fascinating how differently Disney and TOEI handled the return of their most iconic properties.

I don't think that's really getting off track. I mean, you're presenting a topic that makes a supposition: that DB Super fans are luckier than Disney SW fans because of certain reasons. Whether we agree or disagree if that supposition is true first depends on whether or not we even agree with those underlying reasons. Because if we don't, it's going to be impossible for us to even relate to the question the way you want us to. If I think that DB Super is a bunch of boring, vacuous fanservice that became almost unbearable to sit through towards the end, while I find the Disney SW movies to be flawed but overall enjoyable pieces of entertainment that wash the taste of the terrible prequels out of my mouth, and that those points outweigh the supposed benefit of getting the see the cast together one more time, then how am I supposed to answer this?

True in a sense. But I think where you go off the mark is the supposition that it's your opinion that I'm referencing. I'm talking about facts and statistics around the net that strongly suggest that a notable portion of SW fans really wanted a Han, Luke, Leia focus in the new Star Wars. Ditto for numbers that also strongly suggest a significant portion of DB fans were left very happy with the result of Super. For example: In South America (where I'm from) Super received rave reviews from critics and audiences alike, and the show actually surpassed Walking Dead and Game of Thrones as the #1 watched show. It's actually unprecedented worldwide for those 2 shows to have been overtaken. It's this type of general reception I'm concerned with.

[ABED]

True in a sense. But I think where you go off the mark is the supposition that it's your opinion that I'm referencing. I'm talking about facts and statistics around the net that strongly suggest that a notable portion of SW fans really wanted a Han, Luke, Leia focus in the new Star Wars. Ditto for numbers that also strongly suggest a significant portion of DB fans were left very happy with the result of Super. For example: In South America (where I'm from) Super received rave reviews from critics and audiences alike, and the show actually surpassed Walking Dead and Game of Thrones as the #1 watched show. It's actually unprecedented worldwide for those 2 shows to have been overtaken. It's this type of general reception I'm concerned with.

Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.

[Toxin45]

True in a sense. But I think where you go off the mark is the supposition that it's your opinion that I'm referencing. I'm talking about facts and statistics around the net that strongly suggest that a notable portion of SW fans really wanted a Han, Luke, Leia focus in the new Star Wars. Ditto for numbers that also strongly suggest a significant portion of DB fans were left very happy with the result of Super. For example: In South America (where I'm from) Super received rave reviews from critics and audiences alike, and the show actually surpassed Walking Dead and Game of Thrones as the #1 watched show. It's actually unprecedented worldwide for those 2 shows to have been overtaken. It's this type of general reception I'm concerned with.

Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.

Nah the new universes and God concepts were the main attraction

[Gaffer Tape]

True in a sense. But I think where you go off the mark is the supposition that it's your opinion that I'm referencing. I'm talking about facts and statistics around the net that strongly suggest that a notable portion of SW fans really wanted a Han, Luke, Leia focus in the new Star Wars. Ditto for numbers that also strongly suggest a significant portion of DB fans were left very happy with the result of Super. For example: In South America (where I'm from) Super received rave reviews from critics and audiences alike, and the show actually surpassed Walking Dead and Game of Thrones as the #1 watched show. It's actually unprecedented worldwide for those 2 shows to have been overtaken. It's this type of general reception I'm concerned with.

Could you share some of this data that claims that a lack of Luke, Han, and Leia killed these movies for people? I've heard a LOT of complaints about TLJ (Luke shouldn't have left, Canto Bight, not enough lightsabers, Rey is a Mary Sue, I could go on), but I have never, not a single time, heard that there was not enough Luke, Han, and Leia in the new trilogy. I'm not even sure I get where that's coming from. Harrison Ford got top billing in the first movie, and I don't even think that's unjustified. I mean, it was totally unjustified for Mark Hamill to get second billing in that movie, but Han Solo was a very, very major player in TFA. Leia was less so but had big roles in both movies. And Luke completely stole the flipping show in TLJ. So it's not as if these characters are anywhere close to making token cameo appearances in these movies.

As for Super, I wouldn't mind numbers for that either. And, honestly, "numbers" suggests data on how many people were watching, not necessarily now much they approved of it. And if we're going down that route, TLJ was a huge box office success as well. And let's please not even go down that rabbit hole again where we argue whether or not it was. It was a drop from TFA, but it was still a huge success.

[Kunzait_83]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for me I'd certainly say its an OVER RELIANCE on the past movies in general (the old cast, similar if not outright THE SAME plot beats and ideas, old sets and settings, etc) that kills the new SW movies for me as opposed to some kind of a lack of their presence therein.

Whereas the prequel trilogy tried to do something genuinely different and merely failed at it (albeit spectacularly, hideously, jet-fuel-on-a-train-wreck cringingly so) in their execution, the new Disney-era SW movies to me are the exact inverse: they're in large part outright soulless clones of the old movies (with a few cool or interesting/potentially promising new characters or ideas dotting the landscape here or there) executed in the slickest, most desperately fan-pandering manner possible.

Its like the Disney executives just read a checklist of all the most tired, flogged-to-death - and in some cases even misguided - prequel complaints on the internet going back to 1999, and decided to just cobble together a script based solely on directly addressing and over-correcting on them one by one in an almost dutifully robotic manner, originality or creativity be damned.

Okay let's see. Practical effects? check. Han Solo back and being a soundrely smuggler badass? Check. Chewie and the Falcon? Check. Empire vs Rebels back as the central focus? Check. Giant Death Star-esque superweapon? Check. Big X-Wing battle to find its weak point and blow it up? Check. Tired, worn out "heroes journey" arc played absurdly straight as the main character's focus? Check.

Desert planet? Eh, we'll just call it something else: just so people can't say we're not doing enough "new" things. Check. Central "trio" of main characters being chased by a dude in a black cape and mask? Check. Badass Sith lord with a cool gimmick lightsaber? People loved THAT part of the prequels right? Check. Hm, maybe we can make the new Vader-like guy Han and Leia's kid? Didn't one of those old novels do something like that? It'll be a "I am your father!" moment for the general audience, and we can say its a bone thrown to the super-nerds. Win/win! Droid McGuffin holding plans that they're all after? Check. Oh, we'll even make him Artoo... but he's ROUND! New character! New merch! The little kids and the soccer moms'll LOVE it! $$$

At least one obligatory scene somewhere, maybe in one of the side/spinoff movies, where we do EXACTLY what all the internet nerds have been wanting and screaming about for decades now and bring back the original Darth Vader, have him turn into a total slasher movie villain at one point and just mow down a bunch of hapless cannon fodder in the most "uber-badass/The Force Unleashed" manner possible? Check.

The Emperor? Fuck, he's pretty dead... and we can't clone him, that one old Dark Horse comic book already did that. We'll just make some other a character who is EXACTLY like him in EVERY possible way, without ANY rhyme or reason to it. We'll even introduce him as a hologram first to "build him up". So check. Heroes' mentor figure gets killed by the main darkside villain in front of them at the end of the first movie (NOOOOO!!!), motivating the heroes to victory in the first film's final act? Check. Hey, we can even make it Han! Then the fans can say we did something "risky" and Harrison Ford finally gets that death scene for the character he always said he wanted! Check and check!

Second movie as the "dark" one where the Empire wins, the characters get split up at the beginning and reunite at the end on a small hopeful note? Check. Main hero as Jedi-to-be trained by an unwilling Jedi master on a mysterious, mystical, and water-logged remote planet? Check. Hey, lets make the Yoda character Luke! And have him do the Jedi-fade-out death by the end, just like HIS mentors Obi-Wan and Yoda! This'll make all those weird "Ring theory" folks happy! Its like poetry, it rhymes!

Oh, and we can even do the throne room confrontation between main hero, Vader-analog, and Emperor-clone surrounded by red royal guards, where the hero tries to convince the Vader-guy to become good and he turns on the Emperor! Just tweak it a bit (have a big fight with the red guards or something), and we can call it a "daring" and "fresh" spin on the classic films!

Oh yeah, people absolutely HATED how robotic, awkward, and wooden the acting was in the prequels and missed the natural charisma of the original cast, so we better make sure we devote as MUCH of the movie as humanly possible making sure these characters are SUPER emotive, spunky, and bouncy as is conceivably possible at all times and keep everything as light and bubbly as possible no matter what, tonal variance be damned...

And so on.

And just think, we can now expect to get this constant, almost ritualized and fetishistic revisiting and re-enacting of America's collective childhoods delivered to us with absolute, utter regularity and "death and taxes" inevitability EVERY SINGLE YEAR - and have to deal with them totally monopolizing and sucking all the oxygen out of the entire collective cultural discourse during the weeks/months of their release - from now until climate change claims humanity. And there are people out there celebrating this as a GOOD thing and are genuinely EXCITED for it.



(See, THIS is what I meant when I kept saying before how NONE of these new SW movies' problems have a DAMN thing to do whatsoever with the gender/race of the new cast members, and fucking EVERYTHING to do with unoriginal, hacky studio filmmaking-by-corporate-committee. Silly - and largely imaginary/non-existent - SJW-shit's got absolutely NOTHING remotely on the the oldest, and by far still greatest enemy in all of film history: the utterly hollow, empty, sterile, commercialized predictability and Films-As-Consumer-Product nature of Disney Magic™.)

[VegettoEX]

At this point we have gone beyond the intended point (?) of this thread. While some of the expertise and social commentary shared here is certainly appreciated and well-informed, at this point it's entirely in service of Star Wars discussions; we will ask that everyone try to keep things tangentially Dragon Ball in some way.