New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

[foxfang4]

Pre: I just want to mention I don't hate the new Star Wars direction. I'm just reflecting on how a significant portion of the fan base was left disappointed by it.


I honestly think Dragon Ball has succeeded where Star Wars failed. Think about how lucky we are that we got to see a continuation of Dragon Ball after 20 years in full glory with the original actors. It was stuff that fans could only have dreamed about and I'm pretty sure no one saw this revival coming. Now compare that to Star Wars. Whatever you thought of The Last Jedi, most of the fans of iconic trilogy were robbed of a proper continuation of Han, Luke and Leia. The 47% approval rating (+ many angry rants by Mark Hamill himself) stands out and reflects how devastated people are at what's essentially being seen as a betrayal. The equivalent to this happening in Dragon Ball would be to have Dragon Ball Super never show Vegeta, Goku and co ever interacting together, and then having Goku take a backseat to 3 teen characters voiced by pop stars.

Maybe you hated the old Star Wars trilogy, and love what Disney has done to that franchise ("burn the past" as the theme; a complete opposite direction). But I think Star Wars was a total failure in bringing together the fan base like Dragon Ball has. I think TOEI put on a clinic in how to restore good will within the fan base towards their product; even if they made full use of people's nostalgia.

[kemuri07]

ummmm...

So basically Dragon Ball (*snicker*) "succeeded" where Star Wars "failed is because with Super will now have stories about Goku forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and....


I'd argue that the biggest problem with Super (you know aside from the low-quality writing) is its constant pandering to its fanbase. IMO, DBZ shouldn't have gotten a sequel; it was fine the way it is, and Goku fucking off with Ubuu is the perfect way to end his story. Because, quite frankly, his character arc is fucking done. Besides some vague notion of getting stronger, there reallly isn't anything you can do with that character that hasn't been done yet, so why bother?

On Star Wars. That franchise is one of the largest examples of fictional world-building, and you just want it to continually focus on the same characters? That's fucking dull. And it's one of the reasons why I don't care for The Force Awakens because, while it seemed to set itself up as a new generation of Star Wars, it goes right back into Luke-Jedi nonsense. What I liked about The Last Jedi "is" that it burns the whole place down by establishing a new status quo by the end of the film. THAT'S EXCITING, because now it means that the franchise can go any direction they want to. Instead of just going through the same old shit with Luke Skywalker and crew.

Sometimes new can be good. And sometimes, or most times, writers should not listen to fans. Because fans generally don't really know what they want.

[Thanos]

What I liked about The Last Jedi "is" that it burns the whole place down by establishing a new status quo by the end of the film. THAT'S EXCITING, because now it means that the franchise can go any direction they want to. Instead of just going through the same old shit with Luke Skywalker and crew.

...Except that isn't what happened. The Force Awakens was a safe, fresh start attempting to keep itself in line with the original trilogy; a launchpad for potentially continuing what everyone loved about the series. Instead, The Last Jedi was picked up by a completely different team (an admitted "write as we go" scenario; Johnson didn't even watch TFA) and subverted everything that everyone enjoyed about the franchise, including a coherent plot. It was a Star Wars movie for non-Star Wars fans. And now they're releasing a Han Solo origin movie... and supposedly an Obi-Wan film is in the works. Yeah, they're totally doing something new and good.

Whereas with Dragon Ball, you have the original author's involvement, essentially picking up where Z left off--except it's been over 20 years and all of the elements are in place (that can reasonably be expected) to have a rare nostalgia product that actually lives up to the expectations of the original material.

Goku fucking off with Ubuu is the perfect way to end his story. Because, quite frankly, his character arc is fucking done. Besides some vague notion of getting stronger, there reallly isn't anything you can do with that character that hasn't been done yet, so why bother?

Dragon Ball is Goku. The entire franchise is framed around his perspective. "Besides some vague notion of getting stronger" is kind of the point; it's what keeps the franchise alive and selling toys, which is pretty much why it exists to begin with. Honestly, those seem to be rather arbitrary distinctions you've made--it's not like we've already seen Goku grow old and witnessed all of his adventures throughout; presumably after Z, he and his friends lived on and more adventures happened. I'm not sure a "happily ever after" conclusion is very satisfying in an over-the-top, children's action cartoon. Especially considering the very last chronological event we see of Goku is training with Uub to get stronger, which was never bookended and was left intentionally open. They could easily pick up Goku's adventures after that. and seeing the Zamasu arc and Universal Survival arcs proved that there are more stories to be told in the gap after Buu. I and many others enjoyed it thoroughly. Thus far, there's no reason to abandon the cash-cow that is Goku.

[sintzu]

What helped Super was that the original author came back and continued it, he built on the story and elements that made it likable. What happened with star wars on the other hand was that crazy kathleen kennedy who's nothing like George lucas, bulldozed everything that made star wars loved and is rebuilding it in her crazy SJW image. What makes things worse is that she, her actors and directors have turned it into a political stage where it's "white men" this, "sexism" that and "bigots" the other. People go to movies to get away from reality, no one wants someone's politics forced down their throats, let alone that of the far left. Don't believe me ? look at the sale numbers of anything that pushes those agendas compared to things that don't.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Sale numbers huh?


The Last Jedi


Box office $1.332 billion. Wow that sure is a flop.

[Doctor.]

They have both failed. They both had awful sequel series, which just goes to show ir's not about the concept (whether you continue with a next generation or not), but about the execution.

[sintzu]

Sale numbers huh?


The Last Jedi


Box office $1.332 billion. Wow that sure is a flop.

It is Compared to the force awakens' 2.1 billion. That's of course not counting the merchandise sitting on store shelves.

[Kataphrut]

For the record, Mark Hamill has disavowed those critical comments about The Last Jedi. But as someone who likes both modern Dragon Ball AND modern Star Wars (or at least the new trilogy; Rogue One bored me and I couldn't care less about Rebels or Solo; Obi Wan might get a go if they get Ewan McGregor back, but we'll see), I don't think they're that comparable. The only thing they really have in common is introducing female characters that nerds hate for being "too strong"

Anyway, what exactly did the people who complain about The Last Jedi want from that movie? You do realise the one saying "burn the past" is the villain, right? And that the movie takes Rey's side in the argument with Luke about whether the Jedi should remain, and his arc is ultimately about coming to accept that and redeeming himself for his shitty attitude? It's good stuff. Yeah, the casino plot was badly done, but it was necessary to set up the final shot, which serves as the ultimate symbol of hope at the end of a dark middle chapter.

I don't think The Last Jedi is perfect, but modern Dragon Ball could learn a lot from it. As entertaining as it can be, it still too often gets stuck in the old ways. I don't think it needs to replace Goku and co the way new Star Wars replaced Luke, Han and Leia (which was a necessary move even before one of the actors died), but the least it could do is start telling different kinds of stories instead of going back to the well.

[sintzu]

The only thing they really have in common is introducing female characters that nerds hate for being "too strong"

Never mind the fact those same "nerds" like Wonder Woman who's just as strong in her universe. The majority of people couldn't care less about someone's gender or color, they just want well written characters and the amount of praise Wonder Woman and Black Panther got proves it. Leia and Android 18 are strong characters yet people like them.

[foxfang4]

Anyway, what exactly did the people who complain about The Last Jedi want from that movie? You do realise the one saying "burn the past" is the villain, right? And that the movie takes Rey's side in the argument with Luke about whether the Jedi should remain, and his arc is ultimately about coming to accept that and redeeming himself for his shitty attitude? It's good stuff. Yeah, the casino plot was badly done, but it was necessary to set up the final shot, which serves as the ultimate symbol of hope at the end of a dark middle chapter.

I don't think The Last Jedi is perfect, but modern Dragon Ball could learn a lot from it. As entertaining as it can be, it still too often gets stuck in the old ways.

Just 1-2 replies.

1- Yoda specificially re-iterates Kilo Ren's rhetoric as being the movie's main message (+ read countless Rian Johnson interviews supporting this).
2- I disagree. Super was a perfect balance of new while respecting the legacy/"spirit" of what came before (essentially the complete opposite of what Disney did with Star Wars). TOEI schooled Disney in this regard.
3- "Sintzu's" comment of "Compared to the force awakens' 2.1 billion" is basically a "mike drop" comment.

I guess I struck a nerve with the 3-4 Rian Johnson fans on this forum. But those numbers undeniably show that the direction with the sequels angered a huge part of the Star Wars fan base. I don't think their intention was to do nearly 1/2 as well as the "fan pandering" Force Awakens.

[foxfang4]

For the record, Mark Hamill has disavowed those critical comments about The Last Jedi. But as someone who likes both modern Dragon Ball AND modern Star Wars (or at least the new trilogy; Rogue One bored me and I couldn't care less about Rebels or Solo; Obi Wan might get a go if they get Ewan McGregor back, but we'll see), I don't think they're that comparable. The only thing they really have in common is introducing female characters that nerds hate for being "too strong"
.

I'd pull back on disparaging comments ("nerds") of anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion. I'm sorry you believed Disney's official policy replies (and Mark Hammil's more than probable forced Twitter apology). But in fact, he's recently come out with 2 interviews where he clearly digs at the sequels again. 1. Outright calling the new direction a mistake in a written interview, and 2. The famous youtuber interview from last month (which shows Hamill being more careful, and more sarcastic than ever on the sequels).

[foxfang4]

ummmm...
On Star Wars. That franchise is one of the largest examples of fictional world-building, and you just want it to continually focus on the same characters? That's fucking dull. And it's one of the reasons why I don't care for The Force Awakens because, while it seemed to set itself up as a new generation of Star Wars, it goes right back into Luke-Jedi nonsense.

I want to reiterate that I'm not arguing for or against the new direction. But I do argue that the vast majority were crushed that they didn't get the Luke, Han, Leia focus (including Hamill even in his most forced "pro-Disney" interviews). And, by the way, that hardly even happened in Force Awakens. Yes, Star Wars is Han, Luke and Leia (+ supporting characters from the Original Trilogy). Why do you think the prequels kept reverting to imagery of the old trilogy? It's what people love. Force Awakens is the equivalent of 3 pop star characters starring in the big return Dragon Ball feature. To kill off Vegeta (in a supporting role, and never sees Goku), shows Goku for 10 seconds and has a small cameo by Bulma. It only pandered to the imagery of the trilogy, but fell way short in doing that with the characters.

Like Thanos wrote: "Dragon Ball is Goku". And I argue Star Wars (to the majority, because SW now has been split into many factions) is Han, Luke and Leia.

[Logania]

tl;dr - I'm complaining about Lucasfilms being crap, and sound like a whiny baby

It's easy to compare both series, but it's also hard to compare.

One on hand, they're both old series that laid the groundwork in their respective genre for the years to come (Shonen for Dragon Ball and Sci-Fi for Star Wars) bound to the popularity of it's glory days. They may try to walk away from the path, try new ideas for a time, but ultimately tend to stick to nostalgia and familiarity to keep the brand alive as anything else won't be the same series people grew up with.

On the other hand...

As much as I give flack to Toriyama, I do appreciate him sticking to his series and try to give the fans new material that attempts to keep the same image of Dragon Ball that caters to new generations and old, and it shows. Being one of the highest rated and popular anime shows in quite awhile, sparking new manga, anime, movies, video games and more.

Star Wars however, is now led by a group whose using the product to market their political/social narrative and nothing more. A hollow shell of it's former self, that rides the coattails of the original movies, using it's same: plot, characters, stories, while at the same time, tarnishing and destroying the very things that makes Star Wars what it is. It's truly remarkable how they do both at the same time.

I'm not going to talk about why I dislike Star Wars new moves, or Super, because my personal opinion on the movies/anime doesn't really matter much on each franchise's success (or for Star Wars, slow descent to failure)

Star Wars movie sales have been cut in half and have been gaining less and less positive reviews with each new installment. Toys ever slowly losing sales and are stocked full at most stores, games are commercial failures, and overall merchandise for the franchise has dropped below 20% in 3 years. That's a huge decrease!

The main reason for the slow descent of Star Wars is simple. They're not catering to fans of the series, belittling them for not liking the new "direction" the series has taken and are labeled sexist, racist, bigots. They don't want to make good stories, or expand the universe. They are only interested in virtue signaling their political and social beliefs to the public. When the main topics they advertise for "Solo: A Star Wars Story" is a female is a main adversary, a droid is a strong female robot who's fighting for equal droid rights and Lando being a Pansexual, you know where their priorities are and I hate it.

I can't even label Star Wars as a good series anymore, because out of the 10 movies, there's only been 2 great ones one okay movie and one mediocre movie. 3/10, hooray.

[KBABZ]

kathleen kennedy who's nothing like George lucas, bulldozed everything that made star wars loved and is rebuilding it in her crazy SJW image.

That's rich considering the original had Leia ("somebody has to save our skins!") and the next two films had Lando Calrissian.

[foxfang4]

tl;dr - I'm complaining about Lucasfilms being crap, and sound like a whiny baby

It's easy to compare both series, but it's also hard to compare.

One on hand, they're both old series that laid the groundwork in their respective genre for the years to come (Shonen for Dragon Ball and Sci-Fi for Star Wars) bound to the popularity of it's glory days. They may try to walk away from the path, try new ideas for a time, but ultimately tend to stick to nostalgia and familiarity to keep the brand alive as anything else won't be the same series people grew up with.

On the other hand...

As much as I give flack to Toriyama, I do appreciate him sticking to his series and try to give the fans new material that attempts to keep the same image of Dragon Ball that caters to new generations and old, and it shows. Being one of the highest rated and popular anime shows in quite awhile, sparking new manga, anime, movies, video games and more.

Star Wars however, is now led by a group whose using the product to market their political/social narrative and nothing more. A hollow shell of it's former self, that rides the coattails of the original movies, using it's same: plot, characters, stories, while at the same time, tarnishing and destroying the very things that makes Star Wars what it is. It's truly remarkable how they do both at the same time.

I'm not going to talk about why I dislike Star Wars new moves, or Super, because my personal opinion on the movies/anime doesn't really matter much on each franchise's success (or for Star Wars, slow descent to failure)

Star Wars movie sales have been cut in half and have been gaining less and less positive reviews with each new installment. Toys ever slowly losing sales and are stocked full at most stores, games are commercial failures, and overall merchandise for the franchise has dropped below 20% in 3 years. That's a huge decrease!

The main reason for the slow descent of Star Wars is simple. They're not catering to fans of the series, belittling them for not liking the new "direction" the series has taken and are labeled sexist, racist, bigots. They don't want to make good stories, or expand the universe. They are only interested in virtue signaling their political and social beliefs to the public. When the main topics they advertise for "Solo: A Star Wars Story" is a female is a main adversary, a droid is a strong female robot who's fighting for equal droid rights and Lando being a Pansexual, you know where their priorities are and I hate it.

I can't even label Star Wars as a good series anymore, because out of the 10 movies, there's only been 2 great ones one okay movie and one mediocre movie. 3/10, hooray.

Logania, I think you wrote it better than I ever could. I totally agree that it's irrelevant what people personally liked or didn't like about each franchise. Instead, we're trying to get at the heart of the issue.

Dragon Ball: Gave the majority what they wanted. More goodwill to the franchise than ever.
Star Wars: Pissed on what the majority wanted. More bad will towards the franchise than ever.

[BlueBasilisk]

Toys ever slowly losing sales and are stocked full at most stores, games are commercial failures, and overall merchandise for the franchise has dropped below 20% in 3 years. That's a huge decrease!

Just speaking from personal experience here, but I think part of the problem here is that they're overproducing shit nobody wants. Every toy store I've been to has been clogged up with characters like Constable Zuvio or Krennic or some one-off background character while the main characters are scarce. The store where I work still has several pegs worth of those two and Finn (Jakku) figures. We can't even get rid of them on clearance. The Marvel Legends figures have occasionally run into this too.

[Logania]

Just speaking from personal experience here, but I think part of the problem here is that they're overproducing shit nobody wants. Every toy store I've been to has been clogged up with characters like Constable Zuvio or Krennic or some one-off background character while the main characters are scarce. The store where I work still has several pegs worth of those two and Finn (Jakku) figures. We can't even get rid of them on clearance. The Marvel Legends figures have occasionally run into this too.

That is also a problem. Also the fact that all the merchandise for Star Wars compared to other toys is so overpriced it's ridiculous.

That's funny about the Marvel Figures, my nephew is a huge comic fan, so I usually go to the store every month or so to buy him an action figure, and Legends is usually all gone! (Although I kind of look for some Spider-Man Legends figures for me at times as well, the Spidey fan in me needs them)

[sintzu]

kathleen kennedy who's nothing like George lucas, bulldozed everything that made star wars loved and is rebuilding it in her crazy SJW image.

That's rich considering the original had Leia ("somebody has to save our skins!") and the next two films had Lando Calrissian.

What's your point ? Both those characters are well liked so the gender and race card they're using now doesn't hold much weight. I guess it's easier to use those cards than admit to writing unlikable characters.

[coola]

While i haven't watched new SW movies yet, I'm really glad DB didn't went road other "reboot" did, Ghostbusters, like James Rolfe said, it was very disrespectful to its legacy, plus, movie itself had extremely toxic background (Actresses themselves went to "Women Power" conventions, and then cried some people didnt like it, you were called sexist for not liking trailer, despite it being terrible, cheap effects and i didnt laugh even once) and I'm very happy it flopped, despite being promoted by SJW like crazy

[ABED]

It is Compared to the force awakens' 2.1 billion. That's of course not counting the merchandise sitting on store shelves.

The Force Awakens is the first Star Wars movie in a decade. I don't think even Lucasfilm was counting on that same success for subsequent movies.

For those talking about "giving fans what they want", please stop. There is no "the fans". We aren't some hive mind. We're individuals with our own tastes and desires. Writers shouldn't be so concerned with giving fans what they want. How do they know what we want? There are millions of fans all over the world for both series, so how does anyone begin to satisfy everyone of us? It's impossible. They have to go where the story takes them. I do think it's best to treat sequels like they did the original - like they are creating them in a vacuum, because that's how they came up with the story that made people fans to begin with.

People are allowed to dislike whatever they want, but a great deal many of the criticisms towards the latest SW movie have been because Johnson subverted their expectations. Rey isn't anyone special's child, Kylo Ren destroyed the mask, we never learned Snoke's backstory before he was killed in the second film, etc. For two years people kept speculating who Rey's parents were and who Snoke "really" was, despite that never actually having been set up as a mystery. When TLJ didn't go the way they wanted, they got upset. SW fans seem to have an unhealthy feeling of entitlement over the story. It seems ever since Empire, people want some "I am your father!" style twist. People also lack perspective because Empire was also devisive when it was released and now it's the best regarded SW film. It did something different. That's what stories need to do. Be willing to change things up and take risks. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug but its effects don't last forever.

I liked The Last Jedi, but would've been more than fine had we not gotten new Star Wars just like I was more than fine with not having new DB. A great ending is worth its weight in gold. I can count on one hand the number of revivals that I've actually enjoyed. With the exception of Battle of Gods, DB has not been one of them. I like Kunzait's idea that BoG's could've acted as another ending for DB.