New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 8:41 pm

I've never seen a company attack their fanbase the way the star wars people do. someone should clue them in that the people they're running after don't spend $$$ on anything so once they've scared normal people away they're going to be in trouble and if the box office and toy sales are anything to go by then its already started.
And I've never seen a fanbase that takes such an unhealthy sense of ownership over the property as Star Wars does.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 8:48 pm

ABED wrote:And I've never seen a fanbase that takes such an unhealthy sense of ownership over the property as Star Wars does.
They're the ones keeping everyone's paychecks signed so they have a right to voice their opinions. If you have a business then your #1 priority is you customers approval cause if you don't have it then you won't have their $$$. If you had a restaurant and people didn't like the menu for whatever reason are you going to tell them they're taking an "unhealthy ownership" of your food ?
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 8:56 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:And I've never seen a fanbase that takes such an unhealthy sense of ownership over the property as Star Wars does.
They're the ones keeping everyone's paychecks signed so they have a right to voice their opinions. If you have a business then your #1 priority is you customers approval cause if you don't have it then you won't have their $$$. If you had a restaurant and people didn't like the menu for whatever reason are you going to tell them they're taking an "unhealthy ownership" of your food ?
Except that they can't possibly make everyone happy. Everyone has different opinions. Star Wars has a massive fanbase, so whom do you listen to?

There were no Star Wars fans before Lucas created the story. Instead of giving fans "what they want", shouldn't writers give fans what they didn't know they want? After all, they didn't know they wanted Star Wars before 1977.

It's not a charity. Fans give money because they find value in the product. If they don't, then they vote with their wallet.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 9:03 pm

ABED wrote:It's not a charity. Fans give money because they find value in the product. If they don't, then they vote with their wallet.
They did vote with their wallet as the last jedi lost over a third of what the previous movie made. The people working on star wars, behind and in front of the camera, need to get through their thick heads that star wars is a business, a business that will fail if they upset enough people with their product and behaviour.

You're right, you can't satisfy everyone, but if you were in charge of a business and you lost a third of your install base then you'd better figure something out or someone else will by taking your place.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 9:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not a charity. Fans give money because they find value in the product. If they don't, then they vote with their wallet.
They did vote with their wallet as the last jedi lost over a third of what the previous movie made. The people working on star wars, behind and in front of the camera, need to get through their thick heads that star wars is a business, a business that will fail if they upset enough people with their product and behaviour.

You're right, you can't satisfy everyone, but if you were in charge of a business and you lost a third of your install base then you'd better figure something out or someone else will by taking your place.
It didn't lose money! Should they keep going down the route of remaking the original trilogy?

You can't compare two films and the entire restaurant business. It's apples and oranges. Actually, it's apples and vegetables. A restaurant is long term and the menu is pretty much the same night in and night out. Films are unique.

What behavior? The fans are way worse - getting pissy and making up ridiculous reasons to justify their nerd rage. "They don't have a plan! They are making this shit up as they go along!" So did Lucas with the original trilogy.

I'd rather the whole thing implode than see them make hollow retreads which seems like what "the fans" want. I gotta believe that's not what anyone wants. Eventually the bloom would be off the rose and less and less people would go.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 9:18 pm

ABED wrote:It didn't lose money!
The Force awakens made 2 billion while the last jedi made 1.3 billion. That's a 34%+ drop.

Before you say TFA was an "event" movie, don't forget that 2012's the Avengers was as well yet age of ultron only made 100k less while 2018's Infinity war is going to make 2 billion which is half a billion more than the "event" first movie.
What behavior?
Calling anyone who doesn't like their movies a sexist, a bigot, a homophobe, etc. I don't know about you, but if I just lost 30%+ of my business the last thing I'd do is try to upset who's left. Next week's Solo box office numbers should be very interesting.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 9:27 pm

It was the first Star Wars film in a while and it played it completely friggin safe. It played purely on nostalgia that fans have for movies they grew up with. The MCU is new by comparison. Infinity War is the end of the story that the MCU built by taking chances. It's not an apt comparison. The original trilogy didn't play it safe. Even Return of the Jedi was an ending. It didn't keep the story going and I would argue ending a profitable series is risky. It was also structurally different.
Calling anyone who doesn't like their movies a sexist, a bigot, a homophobe, etc. I don't know about you, but if I just lost 30%+ of my business the last thing I'd do is try to upset who's left.
You make it sound like they have few fans left. The movie made well over a billion and was profitable. If this was a Justice League level clusterfuck where it lost over 100 million, you might have a point. I haven't seen these comments you speak of.
Last edited by ABED on Sat May 19, 2018 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 9:33 pm

It doesn't matter what kind of movie it was, 700 million less is 700 million less. You can spin it however you want but the end result is the same, it made 30%+ less than the one before it.

Back in 2015 there were reports that the higher ups at Disney weren't happy about Age of Ultron making 100K less so that 700 didn't go unnoticed.
ABED wrote:I haven't seen these comments you speak of.
I'm not a star wars fan yet they pop up on the sites I look at and youtube so they're not hard to find as they're in your face if you're into comics, movies, etc.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 9:40 pm

sintzu wrote:It doesn't matter what kind of movie it was, 700 million less is 700 million less. You can spin it however you want but the end result is the same, it made 30%+ less than the one before it.

Back in 2015 there were reports that the higher ups at Disney weren't happy about Age of Ultron making 100K less so that 700 didn't go unnoticed.
ABED wrote:I haven't seen these comments you speak of.
I'm not a star wars fan yet they pop up on the sites I look at and youtube so they're not hard to find as they're in your face if you're into comics, movies, etc.
There's no way anyone can sustain 2 billion dollars per outing. It's not possible. It's not spin, it's just a fact. Would you rather them continually pump out retreads year after year? And who's to say The Force Awakens didn't take millions off the gross?

Whether people like the films will impact their bottom line, but comments like the ones you mentioned won't.

This situation isn't as cut and dry as you make it. It's hard to tell considering we haven't seen the whole trilogy. Not to mention Johnson had to answer questions and pay things off that were set up by a different writer. Don't like that Luke exiled himself? That's the best answer we were gonna get given what JJ set up.

This whole thread is problematic because we're two films into a trilogy. Super was a TV show that came to an end.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 9:49 pm

ABED wrote:There's no way anyone can sustain 2 billion dollars per outing.

Would you rather them continually pump out retreads year after year?

Whether people like the films will impact their bottom line, but comments like the ones you mentioned won't.
No one expected it to, but on the other hand it shouldn't have dropped that much. The 1st 2 avengers movies saw a drop but a very resonable one.

Of course not, but they need to figure out a way to keep things fresh without loosing people. The new god of war game is a great example of an IP being completely changed yet done so in a way that not only managed to keep old fans but also bring in new ones.

Why would you give $$$ to a company that says they're not making their products for you and if you don't like it you're the bad guy who hates minorities and women ? Star wars isn't the only game around as it's not only going up against others within the movie industry but other different industries as well so there's no lack of options for people to pick from if they're going to keep this up, as we saw with the last jedi box office drop. If you tell someone your product isn't made for them and their opinions don't matter then they'll simply go elsewhere.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 9:56 pm

Of course not, but they need to figure out a way to keep things fresh without loosing people. The new god of war game is a great example of an IP being completely changed yet done so in a way that not only manages to keep old fans but also bring in new ones.
That's always the risk when you take chances.
Why would you give $$$ to a company that says they're not making their products for you and if you don't like it you're the bad guy who hates minorities and women ? Star wars isn't the only game around as it's not only going up against others within the movie industry but other different industries as well so there's no lack of options for people to pick from if they're going to keep this up, as we saw with the last jedi box office drop. If you tell someone your product isn't made for them and their opinions don't matter then they'll simply go elsewhere.
How many people do you think actually read those comments? And I'm not even sure those people are reading those comments correctly. For the love of god, you are citing something from Youtube! Honestly, I'd rather artists stick up for themselves than try to pander to the crowd.

I looked up some of the comments, which as irony would have it was stated by JJ who wrote and directed episode 7! While I don't agree with him on every point, that's not the sort of thing that would keep me away from theaters. Boring retreads year after year would after a while. And I don't think they have a measurable impact on the viewing audience either.
Last edited by ABED on Sat May 19, 2018 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 10:05 pm

ABED wrote:How many people do you think actually read those comments?

For the love of god, you are citing something from Youtube!

Honestly, I'd rather artists stick up for themselves than try to pander to the crowd.
I think we'll find out next week when solo opens and in 2019 with episode 9.

The source isn't youtube, just people commenting on what's being said alongside providing the source of it.

Sticking up for themselves would be like "this is our vision, we know it's not for everyone and we respect that" not "if you don't like our vision you're the enemy and hater of women and people of color". These people use the gender and race card every chance they get, even when it has nothing to do with it.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 10:11 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:How many people do you think actually read those comments?

For the love of god, you are citing something from Youtube!

Honestly, I'd rather artists stick up for themselves than try to pander to the crowd.
I think we'll find out next week when solo opens and in 2019 with episode 9.

The source isn't youtube, just people commenting on what's being said alongside providing the source of it.

Sticking up for themselves would be like "this is our vision, we know it's not for everyone and we respect that" not "if you don't like our vision you're the enemy and hater of women and people of color".
You are being WAY too reductive in your analysis. You can't possibly know what impact it will have on Solo.

I was being imprecise when I wrote "youtube". I don't know if you saw a video or saw comments, but dear god, never read the comments. They are pointless and obnoxious.

Considering some alt-right group has taken credit for lowering the RT score, it wouldn't be wrong to say "F--- them." The comments were more specific than just normal people voicing dislike towards the movie. They were critical of those that felt TLJ was trying to force more females and minorities into the movie. They weren't directed towards those the didn't like the movie because they felt it was too long and the digression to the casino planet was boring.

I don't think either DB or SW has failed. Both will remain successful.
Last edited by ABED on Sat May 19, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sat May 19, 2018 10:16 pm

ABED wrote:Considering some alt-right group has taken credit for lowering the RT score...
If I'm not mistaking, RT came out and said they were full of it and that no one played with the score. I guess it was the Russians. :lol:
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by ABED » Sat May 19, 2018 10:22 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:Considering some alt-right group has taken credit for lowering the RT score...
If I'm not mistaking, RT came out and said they were full of it and that no one played with the score. I guess it was the Russians. :lol:
I get that, but my point is they claimed it.
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat May 19, 2018 10:52 pm

sintzu wrote:Why would you give $$$ to a company that says they're not making their products for you and if you don't like it you're the bad guy who hates minorities and women ?
Yeah here's the thing though: no one's actually DOING THAT. I mean I'm sure there's a FEW odd assholes here or there probably (your actual, stereotypical "SJW" types and such; the kinds of people you generally only have to worry about on certain college campuses, and pretty much all of NOWHERE ELSE besides): but overall generally speaking, this isn't a fucking thing that's happening on a broad scale.

You know who doesn't like the new Star Wars movies? Me. I don't. I've shat on them and trashed what lazy, safe, unimaginative retreads they are on a good number of occasions: online, IRL, wherever. I have even FEWER nice things to say about J.J. Abrams as a director, who I consider to be one of the single most overrated and overblown hacks in the entire present day film industry and who hasn't made a single film or TV show that was worth a damn his entire career.

I'm not alone in this either: I've numerous friends, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends, people I just generally KNOW OF through the grapevine, etc. who ALL hold similar feelings about these new movies, and are not shy in any way about letting people know about it.

The grand total of times that myself, or ANY OTHER person I've known or known of who have been called a "racist", "sexist", "bigot", "hatemonger" etc. for not liking these movies?

Fucking. Zero. 0. Zilch. Nada. Not a fucking once.

Now that's not to say that I HAVEN'T seen ANY people get called bigoted, racist, or sexist for saying bad things about these movies. But of those who get called that, do you know what they typically tend to have in common among them? Their making liberal use of racial slurs and derogatory remarks about women in their vitriol against these movies ("Why is there a N***er Stormtrooper?" and vile shit along those lines).

Myself and most other people who generally don't like these movies? Yeah, we kinda don't do that: there's no need for it because A) NONE of these films' problems have a DAMN thing to do with the gender or ethnicity of the cast members (and everything to do with lazy writing and risk-adverse, creativity-free corporate stooges at the helm) and B) most sane people are TOTALLY not at all bothered by the leads being female and black.

Unfortunately not EVERYONE currently walking around in the United States is sane. You apparently seem to be genuinely unaware of this, but genuine for-real racism and sexism ARE indeed still things that exist in the world and there are indeed a fair amount of people out there to whom those labels genuinely DO actually apply. No, its not EVERYONE (not even CLOSE to everyone), and no it hardly applies to you solely for not liking the new SW movies (and no one ever fucking said that it did in the first place).

This particular statement of yours here especialy:
sintzu wrote:Fact of the matter is, the majority of people don't care about race and gender as they look at everyone equally, despite what the people at Hollywood tell you, never mind the fact that the majority of problems they "fight" are caused by them and are mostly found in their industry.
Is laughably, almost depressingly naive and at odds with the reality of today's world, especially here in America: a lot of people aren't racist or sexist, true, but a LOT also are as well. This is absolutely unavoidable, as there continues to be incident after never-ending incident on a daily basis of racial profiling and hate crimes (like actual, physical assault-types of hate crimes, not just someone calling someone a name) committed all across North America.

Most of the people who usually react with "Well I don't ever see it happen" or "it's never happened to ME" are very often (tellingly enough) white people. No shit you're not seeing it: it doesn't happen to white people generally. White people RARELY to almost-never get beaten up or physically assaulted at random or plucked out of a crowd and harassed by police purely due to their whiteness: that EXCLUSIVELY happens to people of OTHER NON-WHITE RACES. This is the very nature and definition of racism across America, and has been since its founding. If you don't see it or disagree with it, then things like day to day reality and history beg to differ, and you can consider yourself mercifully, blessedly fucking sheltered from how fucked up the real world is and HAS long, LONG been for certain stretches of the population for hundreds of years now.

This doesn't mean that white people somehow have it easy or that white people have all the breaks in the universe. I'm white, and my life has certainly seen its share of shitty days/years, as have many other white people out there, including on this very forum: its just that white people don't usually have to deal with THIS ONE OTHER SPECIFIC PROBLEM HERE that other non-white people kinda often do. Its just one less (but significant) thing that we as white people don't generally have to worry about that other races (both in the U.S. and in other countries as well with their own issues of bigotry) unfortunately do.

And moreover, the idea that its HOLLYWOOD (of all things) that's at the cause of or contributing in a significant way to these problems is BEYOND comical and and out of touch with reality. Don't get me wrong: Hollywood has its fair share of racism and sexism too (the origins of the whole "Me too" movement have their basis in Hollywood sexual assault cases when it comes to the latter): but the idea that problems with race and gender are mainly due to Hollywood somehow "stoking it" and worsening it simply by casting more people of color or women in more of their movies (and thus "pushing some kind of a far left agenda" as a result, as is so often the claim)...

...yes, I'm sure that black people who deal with genuine racism from everywhere from the police to the job market to classmates in school to numerous day to day interactions with general shitheads on the street and women who deal with sexism and sexual harassment at their places of work, at home, out in public places, etc... I'm sure ALL of these people are primarily looking to things like Lucasfilm's casting of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega in the lead roles of the new Star Wars films as the REAL sources of all their collective woes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The point being, a LOT of people either like or don't like the new Star Wars movies (as a consequence of a LOT of people generally seeing and being into these movies). Of the people that don't like it, hardly anywhere CLOSE to all of them are being uniformly accused of racism or sexism as their primary motives for not liking them (and NO ONE ANYWHERE is accusing the majority of such).

The people who ARE getting accused of those things are, suspiciously and oddly enough, the people who cite the lead actors' race and gender as among their main issues with the movies and/or use a healthy barrage of racist and sexist slurs in their slagging of the films and its performers. Because yes, while there are indeed plenty of people who don't like the movies for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the actors' ethnicity or gender (raises hand), that DOESN'T mean that there somehow aren't plenty of other people who DO have a problem with the leads being a woman and a black guy, and who aren't shy about admitting that up front.

If I remember correctly sintzu, you once had a post awhile back where you talked candidly about how as a non-U.S. native, you used to not believe that the United States had such a shitty healthcare system until you came here and saw it for yourself. I found that to be a wonderful and enlightening read at the time: and I want to now add that I think its also the day to day realities of how a great many Americans (not all or close to all, but way too many regardless) view and perceive race and gender (as well as moreover how that certain stretch treat others of differing race and gender) might also be another similar "blind spot" of yours as a non-native of this country.

Because while there are indeed a TON of lovely, wonderful people across America who are in NO way the least bit racist or sexist... there are still indeed a whole fucking TON OF OTHERS who unfortunately ARE and very much so, and who still continue to spread their poisonous hate on a daily basis and make the lives of so many women and brown people (and even a few of their own fellow white people as an indirect consequence) just a little bit shittier each day.

Again: I have nothing but apathy and boredom for the new SW films and find them to be banal, dull, and redundant repetitions of better films. I'm NOT alone or unique in that view either. But unfortunately, whether you choose to believe it or not, there DOES exist a contingent of people out there in the United States who are so dumb and ridiculous in their worldviews that among their big points of criticism with the new SW movies is that there's a woman and a black person on the poster (despite even the OLD movies also featuring a woman and a black guy in lead roles: racists and sexists are many things, the sharpest tools in the shed has traditionally NOT been one of them).

As someone who doesn't even fucking like these new movies myself, I have NO problems whatsoever with other people (both fans of the new movies, and fellow dissenters like me who don't care for them) to call these people out as being the knuckle-dragging douchebags that they are. If you're not one of those knuckle-dragging douchebags, then congratulations: no one who's been calling certain SW fans "racist" for not liking these new movies was talking about you, or anyone else for that matter who manages to accomplish the fairly simple task of not liking these new films without resorting to dropping N-bombs into their tirades against them (John Boyega for example had gotten SO many hideously racist letters from angry SW fans in the mail who were upset with him for playing a black Stormtrooper after the first The Force Awakens teader had dropped, that he had to release a press statement addressing the issue and telling those people effectively to fuck off).
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by kemuri07 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:27 am

Oooooooh. SOMEONE JUST GOT TOLD.


but you don’t like TLJ, so, you know, we can’t be friends.

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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:28 am

TheBigBoy wrote:I'm not a huge fan of any Star Wars stuff outside the original trilogy, but there's nothing worse than fucking nerds bitching about "SJWs"
The issue with people bitching about SJWs on the web is that most people can't tell the difference between a SJW and being a normal liberal. If you have any Left Wing views, you are called a SJW. I'm a pretty big left wing person myself, but I still find SJWs to be annoying and stupid. They are not as everywhere as people made out to be. The whole SJW term didn't exist until like 2012 when the whole Tropes vs. Women in Video Games thing happen from what I can recall. Before that, people just ignore them and laugh how stupid they are. If people just ignore them, the Internet won't make a big deal out of them.

As for this thread, I don't why people compare SW and DB since they have nothing in common other than being two major franchises. I personally rather watch the later episodes of Super than any of the new Star Wars movie to be honest. At least DB had a nice long break with no major material coming out down our throats for nearly 20 years. Star Wars still had video games, animated shows, books, comics and those awful parodies from Robot Chicken & Family Guy still pumping out like crazy even before 2015.
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Shaddy
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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by Shaddy » Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 am

Both Star Wars and Dragon Ball fully succeed and fail at everything they set out to do, other than exist.

Both series are trapped between trying to do new and different things, and being held to what's popular and will make money.

Both succeed at having way more engaging pacing and storytelling than the piles of garbage that preceeded them (and subsequently succeeded the parts everyone liked) but have questionable writing decisions as a result of not only the number of people who worked on them, but which people did so.

Both are riddled with small problems and inconsistencies that, to some of their fans, come off as a "betrayal of the source", even if they don't really matter to the more casual majority, and somehow makes the newest series/trilogy worse than the one that supposedly "ruined" the series before it.

But both also have incredible advances brought on by technology, talent, creativity and a simple variety in the staff.

Calling either a complete success or complete failure is a misrepresentation of both. If that were the case, opinions on either would be as similar from the OT to ST as they were from ANH to Empire, or from chapter 194 to 195.

Personally, I like both, but I understand where a lot of people's problems come from. I feel the lack of tension and consistency in Super, and I agree that there are a lot of really fucking stupid moments in the New trilogy.

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Re: New Dragon Ball has succeeded where new Star Wars failed

Post by sintzu » Sun May 20, 2018 5:40 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:If I remember correctly sintzu, you once had a post awhile back where you talked candidly about how as a non-U.S. native, you used to not believe that the United States had such a shitty healthcare system until you came here and saw it for yourself. I found that to be a wonderful and enlightening read at the time: and I want to now add that I think its also the day to day realities of how a great many Americans (not all or close to all, but way too many regardless) view and perceive race and gender (as well as moreover how that certain stretch treat others of differing race and gender) might also be another similar "blind spot" of yours as a non-native of this country.
Maybe you're right, I haven't spent nearly enough time in America to get a full picture of the social climate there so when I do live there longer I'll be more than happy to change my opinion on it if I'm wrong.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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