Would cell have been a better choice?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:02 pm

Well after the tournament of power fans asked why cell should have been in the tournament of power for being a better choice for Frieza ? I got this topic a while back but now I want to here your thoughts on it.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by sintzu » Mon May 21, 2018 12:46 pm

I think Toriyama and Toei could've made it work but Freeza was slightly the better option due to his history with everyone and his personality. With Freeza you just didn't know what he was up to but I think it'd be hard to pull that off with Cell as he didn't seem the type of character who'd act like Freeza.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:58 pm

sintzu wrote:I think Toriyama and Toei could've made it work but Freeza was slightly the better option due to his history with everyone and his personality. With Freeza you just didn't know what he was up to but I think it'd be hard to pull that off with Cell as he didn't seem the type of character who'd act like Freeza.
Well I hear a lot counters stating that cell has history with the fighters too and cell again in less popular in Japan than in the west. Plus I bet toriyama had ptsd when drawing cell.

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3855
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Narratively not but why decide between one when you can have both.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by KBABZ » Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 pm

Because Frieza is DBZ's most famous villain, and Cell is not.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:18 pm

KBABZ wrote:Because Frieza is DBZ's most famous villain, and Cell is not.
Eh... I honestly don't think Freeza began to eclipse Cell until much later years. During the actual time of the series' original Japanese run, they were both pretty neck and neck with one another in terms of overall popularity and visibility with the whole series. This idea of Freeza being seen as more of the overall Dragon Ball franchise's "single most iconic overarching villain" didn't really turn into a thing until WAY later. He wasn't really seen that way during the original run: just as an especially noteworthy, important villain, same as both Piccolo Daimao before him and Cell (and then Boo) after. They were all fairly, relatively level with one another back in the day in terms of series notoriety.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17543
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:just as an especially noteworthy, important villain, same as both Piccolo Daimao before him and Cell (and then Boo) after.
Wanna really help to highlight this, because this is one of the most iconic pieces of "villains" artwork that comes to mind for me:

Image

These were really all held in equal regard for a while. If you look through the end of its "original" production (and by that I mean into GT, because I'm about to cite it here), even when they brought Freeza back for things, it was ALWAYS ALONGSIDE SOMEONE ELSE: in Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans it was a bunch of movie villains, and in GT it was with Cell himself. Freeza and Cell were seen as a "duo", really, for an extremely long time. Any time they appeared for promotion, it was together... commercials, GT, etc. The only possible exception was movie 12, and even there it was "he's back, but so is EVERYONE ELSE!!!"

Some (one?) of you in particular keep making vague references to "well I hear _____ is more/less popular in _____ region"... but as I've said time and time again, there's nothing to actually back that up, particularly when very few official character popularity polls have taken place, and the ones that have been held are done so at vastly different times in production/release and can't really be weighed against each other.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:40 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Because Frieza is DBZ's most famous villain, and Cell is not.
Eh... I honestly don't think Freeza began to eclipse Cell until much later years. During the actual time of the series' original Japanese run, they were both pretty neck and neck with one another in terms of overall popularity and visibility with the whole series. This idea of Freeza being seen as more of the overall Dragon Ball franchise's "single most iconic overarching villain" didn't really turn into a thing until WAY later. He wasn't really seen that way during the original run: just as an especially noteworthy, important villain, same as both Piccolo Daimao before him and Cell (and then Boo) after. They were all fairly, relatively level with one another back in the day in terms of series notoriety.
Then super happened and since Frieza is basically the only returning villain in the franchise at this point.
Last edited by Toxin45 on Mon May 21, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:41 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:just as an especially noteworthy, important villain, same as both Piccolo Daimao before him and Cell (and then Boo) after.
Wanna really help to highlight this, because this is one of the most iconic pieces of "villains" artwork that comes to mind for me:

Image

These were really all held in equal regard for a while. If you look through the end of its "original" production (and by that I mean into GT, because I'm about to cite it here), even when they brought Freeza back for things, it was ALWAYS ALONGSIDE SOMEONE ELSE: in Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans it was a bunch of movie villains, and in GT it was with Cell himself. Freeza and Cell were seen as a "duo", really, for an extremely long time. Any time they appeared for promotion, it was together... commercials, GT, etc. The only possible exception was movie 12, and even there it was "he's back, but so is EVERYONE ELSE!!!"

Some (one?) of you in particular keep making vague references to "well I hear _____ is more/less popular in _____ region"... but as I've said time and time again, there's nothing to actually back that up, particularly when very few official character popularity polls have taken place, and the ones that have been held are done so at vastly different times in production/release and can't really be weighed against each other.
Now in super? It's just him twice no less it seems to increase Frieza's popularity nowadays.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17543
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 21, 2018 3:44 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Then super happened and since Frieza is basically the only returning villain in the franchise at this point.
Toxin45 wrote:Now in super? It's just him
You seem to be hyper-focused on kneejerk-reactionary responses to people, with this single-minded track of constantly talking about (justifying?) Freeza's return.

It's OK if you like Freeza. It's OK if you think it's awesome that he's back. Please try to contribute to the larger discussions that you're initiating.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:45 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Then super happened and since Frieza is basically the only returning villain in the franchise at this point.
Toxin45 wrote:Now in super? It's just him
You seem to be hyper-focused on kneejerk-reactionary responses to people, with this single-minded track of constantly talking about (justifying?) Freeza's return.

It's OK if you like Freeza. It's OK if you think it's awesome that he's back. Please try to contribute to the larger discussions that you're initiating.
I am it seems toriyama brought him back to life twice in Modern dragon ball probably as the series breakout villain.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:52 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Wanna really help to highlight this, because this is one of the most iconic pieces of "villains" artwork that comes to mind for me:

Image
Haha, swear to god, I was actually thinking of that very same exact image when I was posting before. :lol:

But yeah, it really can't be stated enough: back in the original days of the series' initial Japanese run, there really WASN'T ANY singularly definitive Dragon Ball franchise villain: pretty much all of them were held in more or less equal regard.

Another image that I find best sums up the villains' status back then is this screen from the PC Engine game "Idainaru Son Goku Densetsu":

Image

I mean that basically sums it up right there: Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo (Daimao/Majunior), Vegeta, Freeza, and Cell (who's supposed to appear in the middle of that screen there, but this was the only capture of this I could find on short notice). And then shortly thereafter, Boo. Those were all seen as more or less the "heavy hitter" iconic baddies of the series back then, on more or less an even-ish playing field of notoriety. Not even most of the movie villains (other than Broli and Coola) were as often touted across various series promotion and fandom focus and so forth.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:56 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Wanna really help to highlight this, because this is one of the most iconic pieces of "villains" artwork that comes to mind for me:

Image
Haha, swear to god, I was actually thinking of that very same exact image when I was posting before. :lol:

But yeah, it really can't be stated enough: back in the original days of the series' initial Japanese run, there really WASN'T ANY singularly definitive Dragon Ball franchise villain: pretty much all of them were held in more or less equal regard.

Another image that I find best sums up the villains' status back then is this screen from the PC Engine game "Idainaru Son Goku Densetsu":

Image

I mean that basically sums it up right there: Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo (Daimao/Majunior), Vegeta, Freeza, and Cell (who's supposed to appear in the middle of that screen there, but this was the only capture of this I could find on short notice). And then shortly thereafter, Boo. Those were all seen as more or less the "heavy hitter" iconic baddies of the series back then, on more or less an even-ish playing field of notoriety. Not even most of the movie villains (other than Broli and Coola) were as often touted across various series promotion and fandom focus and so forth.
Yeah the good old days now it seems that Frieza had become the definitive franchise villain thanks to super.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17543
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Yeah the good old days now it seems that Frieza had become the definitive franchise villain thanks to super.
Again: you're just saying the same basic thing over and over and over, in this thread and elsewhere. It's OK to like what you like, but we ask a little more of our community members.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Toxin45
Regular
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 21, 2018 4:11 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Yeah the good old days now it seems that Frieza had become the definitive franchise villain thanks to super.
Again: you're just saying the same basic thing over and over and over, in this thread and elsewhere. It's OK to like what you like, but we ask a little more of our community members.
Alright I get jeez this topic is about if cell was a better choice for the tournament of power okay.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by KBABZ » Tue May 22, 2018 4:15 pm

Good points there Kunzait and Vegetto. I do agree that the villains were considered more equal back in the day (I certainly felt that way), but in the modern era with stories such as Episode of Bardock and Resurrection F, Frieza is the more emphasized villain these days above the others.

As for picking him for the ToP, I think that Cell would have been better. Cell always seemed like the more reasonable of the two (in his Perfect Form, at least), and if his goal is to flaunt how powerful he is, the ToP would have been perfect for him.

lancerman
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by lancerman » Tue May 22, 2018 8:25 pm

As far as the popularity thing, in the west Cell is more popular than he is the East. However even in the West for the longest time DBZ was triumvirate of Freeza/Cell/Boo. There was so much iconography of that trio, especially in the dark years where we only got video games. All that said, I think Freeza was generally positioned far better. Freeza was the one who came back to kick off the following arc. Freeza was sort of the lead of the returning villains in plan to eradicate the Saiyans. Freeza had his own little solo section of Fusion Reborn. Freeza was more prominently featured when they showed the old fighters facing Boo. Freeza's brother who was a rip off of Freeza got two films. Freeza. Freeza was always referenced a lot more because of his greater connection to series lore. Freeza's arc was the best selling arc in the original manga run.

Cell's biggest moments post his arc were teaming up with Freeza in the Great Saiyaman filler and teaming up with Freeza again in the Super 17 arc.

Even in BOG the big thing that caught Beerus' attention was that Goku managed to defeat Freeza.

There was definitely more parity, but Freeza was treated a little more important.

As far as Cell being a better choice, I don't see what he adds. His power set is a combination of all the heroes. His motivation was to become perfect and then destroy the universe, which isn't something you can do much with. He doesn't really have stronger ties to any characters more than Freeza.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17543
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

lancerman wrote:As far as the popularity thing, in the west Cell is more popular than he is the East.
People keep saying this. There is no evidence to support this.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Bebi Hatchiyack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Tue May 22, 2018 9:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
lancerman wrote:As far as the popularity thing, in the west Cell is more popular than he is the East.
People keep saying this. There is no evidence to support this.
There is West support more Cell artwork than Japan who are now only Digital .........

:mrgreen:

If you get this well then see me out :arrow:
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10283
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Would cell have been a better choice?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:48 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
lancerman wrote:As far as the popularity thing, in the west Cell is more popular than he is the East.
People keep saying this. There is no evidence to support this.
If we take domestic merch into account then I think people have a point. Cell rarely gets any merchandise and when he does he rarely seems to sell well, he recently got a BWFC release but along with Gomes' awful Trunks, Cell is lowest valued figured ironically enough it was western sculptor Eric Sosa that picked Cell to sculpt too. There aren't many other options for Cell too.

It's not an exact science of course but one has to to wonder there is a reason why he has a limited poole of merch/figures.

Post Reply