DB Endings

[Dbzfan94]

Yet super's plotline was written by Toriyama.

I dont care. All I consider canon is the original manga/anime. Everything else is supplementary.

[Toxin45]

Yet super's plotline was written by Toriyama.

I dont care. All I consider canon is the original manga/anime. Everything else is supplementary.

nah

[kemuri07]

I don't know totally how I feel about the "No end in sight" thing. I'm in this weird place where Super and DB/DBZ are 2 completely separate entities to me.

But as it stands, where Dragon Ball ends is where Dragon Ball ends in my mind. Episode 291 of Z or episode 444 or whatever you want to call it. It's complete, it's there, it's not going away. Everything else is extra credit that doesn't enhance or damper my view of the original story.

what other ways? Unless they significantly change the status quo, literally every arch will begin and end the same:

Villain starts shit
Goku and co (but let's be honest, it's only going to be Goku and Vegeta) take them on
Villain beats the shit out of the team
Goku and Vegeta dig deep, deep down into their infinite pool of potential and discover new forms
Villan gets beat.
The end.
The idea that people want DB to continue indefinitely is kind of crazy. Because what else can you do with this franchise? Doesn't matter if Goku meets new characters or worlds--it's literally going to be the same shit.

I agree with both of these. Super isnt canon to me and I just put it off to the side as some extra stuff.

Not big on the constant formula over and over just for $$ either. Idk how long they can go using that forumla. Maybe people will eventually burn out again like they did back in the 90s.

Yet super's plotline was written by Toriyama.

What does that mean? Isn't the whole thing with Super is is that Toriyama merely provided notes for both Toei and Toyotaro to follow, hence why we have two completely different versions of what's supposed to be the same story? As much as I love Dragonball, and absolutely believe that it's proof that Toriyama is a fucking genius--Toriyama now is not the same as Toriyama during the heights of his creativity. What I mean is, if Toriyama's involvement in Super is meant to legitimize that show, I think it says a lot about Toriyama's own writing abilities.

[ABED]

It's not unusual for writers to lose that magic touch.

Let's please keep this about the endings and not canonicity or Toriyama's level of involvement in Super.

[sintzu]

The idea that people want DB to continue indefinitely is kind of crazy.

Toriyama isn't going to do this forever as he's most likely buidling up to an ending, we just don't know what it is yet. If I had to guess I'll say it's a 3rd tournament between those 4 universes and u7. So far what he's done has been enjoyable so the majority of fans want to see it through to the end but once he's done that'll be another story as whoever takes over could mess things up like GT or Boruto which will result in fans dropping out.

I don't think DB should continue forever but if someone has a story to tell then I'm not against it just because it wasn't part of the original run. If it's good then that's more material to enjoy and if not then it won't hurt the original as that's a done deal and has been for years.

[sunsetshimmer]

The only series ending i actually liked was GT. It was great. Others were bad to meh.

If we talk about possible endings i think Goku dying on Namek would be a pretty good ending. Possibly the best.
Cell saga ending also could work with that Goku's speech, but saga itself didn't feel like last arc in any way.
It was just too random and meh to have Cell as final villain. Even if it was related to RR army, it didn't feel that way. Buu saga honestly felt like final arc a lot more than Cell saga.

Other than that i think it's fine how it is. I wouldn't make original DB shorter honestly.
The same goes for GT. Ending at Baby would work great since just like Frieza saga it's something about Goku's origins and would totally end any wars saiyans could have with others. But Shadow Dragons simply worked even better as an ending.

[ABED]

Given the sheer breadth of DB, I have a hard time believing anyone has a DB story to tell that feels like new ground.

[PsionicWarrior]

TBH I never felt like any endings were an actual ending and I kinda want it to stay that way
as long as it can give me the occasionally chills at least and not become something disgraceful lol

[sintzu]

Given the sheer breadth of DB, I have a hard time believing anyone has a DB story to tell that feels like new ground.

Black is one of the best things to come out of DB as a whole, not just modern DB. The multiple universes concept is interesting but has yet to reach its full potntial.

[Toxin45]

Given the sheer breadth of DB, I have a hard time believing anyone has a DB story to tell that feels like new ground.

Black is one of the best things to come out of DB as a whole, not just modern DB. The multiple universes concept is interesting but has yet to reach its full potntial.

We should explore the universes not make a tournament

[sintzu]

We should explore the universes not make a tournament

I agree as I think the Black arc should've taken place in U10 with u10 fighters taking part in it, not in Trunks' timeline.

[Toxin45]

We should explore the universes not make a tournament

I agree as I think the Black arc should've taken place in U10 with u10 fighters taking part in it, not in Trunks' timeline.

Problem is that there is too many universes to choose from.

[WittyUsername]

I would say that either the 23rd Budokai, the Freeza arc or the Cell arc would’ve each made fitting endings for the series. Frankly, I’d say that I would’ve preferred ending the series at any one of those arcs over the ending we ended up getting.

[ABED]

Given the sheer breadth of DB, I have a hard time believing anyone has a DB story to tell that feels like new ground.

Black is one of the best things to come out of DB as a whole, not just modern DB. The multiple universes concept is interesting but has yet to reach its full potntial.

What in the universe is there that would be fundamentally different than just another location? How are they any different than going to another planet in the galaxy?

[sintzu]

What in the universe is there that would be fundamentally different than just another location? How are they any different than going to another planet in the galaxy?

They haven't went to any of them yet so it all depends on how they handle it.

[ABED]

What in the universe is there that would be fundamentally different than just another location? How are they any different than going to another planet in the galaxy?

They haven't went to any of them yet so it all depends on how they handle it.

But there have been aliens from those other universes.

[Kunzait_83]

What in the universe is there that would be fundamentally different than just another location? How are they any different than going to another planet in the galaxy?

They haven't went to any of them yet so it all depends on how they handle it.

But there have been aliens from those other universes.

So far we've only met characters from other universes at two different tournament grounds: one set up by Champa on a nameless, barren planet floating somewhere in neutral space in between Universes 6 and 7 (7 being the main series' universe, and 6 being its twin universe), and the other of course being the Tournament of Power which Zen-Ou had take place literally outside all of existence in an empty void of nothingness beyond all 12 universes.

DB Super has yet to venture into any of the other universes as of yet: we've seen new characters from those universe either crossing over into ours (like when Hit briefly fights Goku on Earth in Universe 7), or fighting in tournament arenas set up in neutral space outside all of the universes entirely.

But as it stands, where Dragon Ball ends is where Dragon Ball ends in my mind. Episode 291 of Z or episode 444 or whatever you want to call it. It's complete, it's there, it's not going away. Everything else is extra credit that doesn't enhance or damper my view of the original story.

That said, had it ended with Freeza or Cell like some people wanted, I don't feel it would have been complete. Gohan's potential never accomplished much until he went SSJ2 and defeated Cell. That really felt full circle from the first time we saw him go off on Raditz. It felt right, I guess. And if it ended at Cell, I don't feel Vegeta's development would have wrapped up very well either. Finally getting the rematch with Goku (that they brought up over and over), finally admitting to having feelings for people other than himself, and finally admitting that Goku is #1 are things that I feel are crucial to his character.

Pretty much all of this. I love posts like this, because they're examining the story from mainly a narrative/character perspective rather than a "kewlness" one. In the original run of the series, most every major arc added something of substance to the narrative, to the characters' development and progression, and that of the overall universe. Even GT made advancements in all of these areas, at least for the relatively fewer/smaller core cast of series characters that it focused on.

With much of Super so far, we're getting INCREDIBLY little of that. The only characters who seem like they've had even a LITTLE bit more added to them from these stories are Future Trunks (who gets some nice fleshing out of his relationship with the main timeline's Gohan that genuinely feels like its adding something to the character), Muten Roshi (who's inspiration by his students' progress to come out of retirement and continue training is at least a solid BEGINNING of a potential/possible new arc for him and gives him INFINITELY more to do as a character than anything he's had since the 80s), #17 (who in Super has taken more or less the EXACT opposite post-Z road that GT had originally given him), and Freeza (showing him being capable of working alongside Goku and the other Z Warriors is at least a new shade to the character we've never seen before, and leaves the door open for further development down the road): and all those bits of development are exceedingly minimal and incremental and come well long after all of their original storylines and character arcs had already been satisfactorily wrapped up and concluded several decades ago.

Everyone else thus far remains more or less permanently frozen right where they've been since the end of the Boo arc. SSJ God/Blue and Ultra Instinct so far exist purely for their "cool" factor, and don't seem to have impacted Goku and Vegeta's personalities or relationship between one another in the slightest; remember when Goku reaching a new SSJ form would stir the pot and add further tension between him and Vegeta and push their rivalry forward? Kinda hard to do that now, after the end of the Boo arc had satisfactorily closed the book on all the tension in that rivalry, and Super doesn't have the balls to allow Vegeta to further grow into a more mature and caring version of himself the way that GT did because it wants to pander to people's fondness for his Cell/Boo arc incarnations.

Kuririn's episodes where he's the central focus in Super are all non-starters and simply acknowledge that he's not quite ready to throw in the towel on furthering his martial arts training just yet, and not much else beyond that. Gohan seems to be stuck in an endless perpetual loop of giving up training and settling down for a peaceful life, only to be spurred back into the fray and have Piccolo train him and bring back his power and fighting ability to their earlier heights. Poor Yamucha doesn't even get the dignity of being brought back out of retirement despite Super doing exactly that for just about everyone else, down to even fucking Muten Roshi, who's been retired ever since Daimao had been given some new ventilation for his torso.

Tenshinhan we learn has started his own martial arts school, which again is endless POTENTIAL for some real development for him (and is generally a fantastic idea for him I think that actually suits him quite well), but Super hasn't gone anywhere at all with that yet (despite ample opportunities in the Tournament of Power to do so), and he remains frustratingly wasted beyond the odd cool fight scene moments here or there. And poor Goten and Trunks aren't even allowed to visibly age past their original 7/8 year old appearances, despite their ostensibly being in their preteens at this point, and have regressed into barely present background props akin to Puar, Oolong, and Chaozu.

We can be here all day going over this, but its a moot point. Super is what it is already now, and doesn't look like its going to be changing much anytime soon, content to grind its wheels in the mud of Z's endpoint and just provide fans who aren't ready to let this series go yet (for whatever incomprehensible reason) with endless throwaway fodder that adds nothing of consequence or pushes the series in any way further forward (despite containing all kinds of ideas and concepts that could VERY EASILY do just that).

GT was also guilty of wasting a ton of characters as well, but at least it had the good sense to not even PRETEND like it was focusing on or concerned with developing just about ANY of them, and instead put all its development and emphasis squarely on the relatively few characters it was concerned with (mostly just Goku, Trunks, Pan, Vegeta, and Mr. Satan) and gave them all (along with the overall general DB universe itself) some satisfying closure.

Super not only grinds its tires in the mud without ANY of the real development given to the overall series that GT had, but it frustratingly pays lip-service to just the NOTION that it MIGHT be concerned with giving all these series regulars some real development and forward momentum... and just never quite gets around to actually doing it, despite having now had what, fucking FIVE whole story arcs now? That's one more arc than Z had and with almost nearly the same rough episode count as the original DB's anime.

As I look back on it, I'm starting to think that one of the reasons why Zamasu is probably one of Super's most successful characters is that he's one of the ONLY characters in the WHOLE series to actually have a complete arc to him. On the whole I find him to be one of the only legitimately worthwhile things to take away from Super, even if there's a bunch of other issues to be had with the general plotline of his "saga".

Its also kinda sad to say, but as I look back on it (and where its likely going to be headed in the near-future) Super has effectively proven itself to be Dragon Ball's almost EXACT equivalent (like to almost a disturbingly identical degree) to Disney's current batch of Star Wars movies: a bunch of kernels of legitimately cool new characters, concepts, and ideas with genuine potential to them that go COMPLETELY wasted and pay only deceptive lip-service to the idea of narrative forward momentum (with token "original series' creator" names working in very limited capacity behind the scenes: namely Akira Toriyama and Laurence Kasdan respectively), because the executive suits behind the whole endeavor lack the balls to actually take creative risks and move the series ahead into brand new territory or have any sort of forward progression and instead just want to endlessly wallow in "iconic" and familiar character and story beats that they know fans' love the most from the series' original classic run, hoping that that kind of shameless fanservice pandering will be enough to sustain endless profits for the foreseeable future.

The parallels between where both these franchises currently are with their new "revival" material is pretty striking to me, and also kinda depressing at how little it apparently takes to genuinely please such large swathes of fans for these things.

Its basically this whole slick routine where we get endless repetitive re-enactments of famous and once-unique and compelling stories, character arcs, and moments from each of these two series that have gripped fans' imaginations for decades now, but disguised and reskinned over JUST enough so that the marketing can have exactly enough plausible deniability to go "See? All new material! We're taking "risks" (not really) AND giving you more and more of exactly what you like and want out of these! (never mind that that's a contradiction and those two aims don't exactly line up perfectly)"

And the tragedy is that those bits and pieces of new ideas used to mask and cover over the otherwise xeroxed repetition are genuinely, legitimately cool and bursting with promise and potential to do ACTUALLY cool new things with the story and characters. A Dragon Ball multiverse with countless universes filled with all kinds of strange and more powerful new martial artists with abilities we've never encountered before is a FANTASTIC idea that genuinely COULD push the series post-Boo arc into new and increasingly even weirder and more outlandish territory.

A smart and disciplined Kaioshin driven to psychotic, homicidal madness by the whimsical, lackadaisical nature of the DB Universe and its pantheon of slacker deities and increasingly god-level mortal martial artists being allowed to run wild? That's an AWESOME villain concept that even gives the series room to get meta with itself about its own distinctive tone and sense of humor. More classic Wuxia concepts the series hasn't used yet like celestial/godly Ki and Mushin/Wuxin getting brought into the mix? Great! I'm all for it!

But all these elements that COULD make for a genuinely fantastic all new continuation of Dragon Ball are largely wasted or otherwise held back from developing into something, because there's an obvious abject fear and restraint holding the various writers at Toei (and who knows to how much of an extent Toriyama) back from really diving head-first into these all new, uncharted waters full throttle and instead constantly backpedaling and relying on old, classic DB series ideas and story beats to overwhelm the narrative and keep it from changing, developing, and progressing into something TOO far removed from where Z had left off at the end of the Boo arc.

Bring back Future Trunks and have him back in his old familiar role as doomsayer from a dark apocalyptic future, warning Goku and co. of an oncoming threat that will kill Goku and his family in the near-future. Bring back Freeza and do next to NOTHING new or interesting with him for an entire story arc featuring him as the main front-and-center villain: just have him show up with a bunch of men and slug it out with Goku and Vegeta all over again and call it a day.

Then bring back Freeza YET AGAIN, and tease at doing something legitimately new and interesting with him by forcing him to align with Goku and the others... only to have it ultimately go nowhere except leading him RIGHT BACK to square fucking one leading his evil space empire and chilling in the background ready to cause more shit for Goku and co. in the future like some cheesy Saturday morning cartoon supervillain with weekly schemes to be thwarted.

Those cool, untouched-by-DB classic Wuxia concepts? Just have them be glorified excuses for "new" (i.e. lazily recolored) SSJ transformations that no one asked for. Keep time from marching forward any and leave everyone perpetually frozen in their late-Boo arc selves. Hell we actually got a pair of AWESOME brand new dogi designs for Goku and Vegeta, and Toei couldn't even bring themselves to hang onto those for more than a couple arcs before reverting both characters back to their classic Cell/Boo arc outfits for really no good reason at all except marketability of the familiar.

A series that was once famous and notable for ALWAYS constantly changing, evolving, and reinventing itself (sometimes quite radically) is now stuck in this "the status quo is God" rut that used to be the EXACT ANTITHESIS of what it always was and represented. And that's a damn shame, because while DB was never at all perfect, these are problems that are relatively new to it (apart from a few of the old movies anyway, which of course notably did plenty of recycling of concepts) and didn't have to get introduced into its creative bloodstream (all the more so seeing as how it was already well and truly finished for decades).

And I can't help but get the impression that this is the sort of endless repetition of repackaged old ideas (thinly papered over by frustratingly cool and interesting new ones) is largely what we're gonna be in store for for some time yet; especially since it seems like enough fans are genuinely satisfied with it and just want to endlessly relive the same old shit that they remember fondly from when they were kids. And that's really too bad and a terrible waste of a series that I remember once being fairly varied and unpredictable with its overall general direction.

Maybe Super has an ending in store for us down the road that'll really knock all our socks off: its POSSIBLE, but I'm not betting money on it judging by what its had for us so far. As it stands, both Z's epilogue or GT episode 64 are both VASTLY better end-points for this series (GT's giving as water-tight closure to things as anyone could possibly ask for) and should've remained that way. As things stand, if the suits at Toei have their way, Super's ending will likely be that it HAS NO ending at all, and DB gets dragged into full-on endless franchise zombie mode for god knows how many years/decades down the road.

For those to whom that prospect is genuinely enticing and exciting: everyone's entitled to their opinion and whatnot, but mine is that y'all are crazy and need to let this shit go already.

But hey: on the bright side, if nothing else, Zamasu is a blast and a half to play as in FighterZ.

[sintzu]

As things stand, if the suits at Toei have their way, Super's ending will likely be that it HAS NO ending at all, and DB gets dragged into full-on endless franchise zombie mode for god knows how many years/decades down the road.

Based on how well it's doing financially, DB as a franchise will never end. In terms of Super, I think it'll end when Toriyama's done (yes, I fully believe he has an end point in mind) and Toei will simply start a new show with a new writer(s). I think once that happens you're going to see a lot of the older fans who grew up with the original go with Toriyama as like you said, it'll go full zombie mode (not that Super doesn't have these issues) which none of us want to see but that's the reality of this franchise based entertainment era we're living in.

[Toxin45]

They haven't went to any of them yet so it all depends on how they handle it.

But there have been aliens from those other universes.

So far we've only met characters from other universes at two different tournament grounds: one set up by Champa on a nameless, barren planet floating somewhere in neutral space in between Universes 6 and 7 (7 being the main series' universe, and 6 being its twin universe), and the other of course being the Tournament of Power which Zen-Ou had take place literally outside all of existence in an empty void of nothingness beyond all 12 universes.

DB Super has yet to venture into any of the other universes as of yet: we've seen new characters from those universe either crossing over into ours (like when Hit briefly fights Goku on Earth in Universe 7), or fighting in tournament arenas set up in neutral space outside all of the universes entirely.

But as it stands, where Dragon Ball ends is where Dragon Ball ends in my mind. Episode 291 of Z or episode 444 or whatever you want to call it. It's complete, it's there, it's not going away. Everything else is extra credit that doesn't enhance or damper my view of the original story.

That said, had it ended with Freeza or Cell like some people wanted, I don't feel it would have been complete. Gohan's potential never accomplished much until he went SSJ2 and defeated Cell. That really felt full circle from the first time we saw him go off on Raditz. It felt right, I guess. And if it ended at Cell, I don't feel Vegeta's development would have wrapped up very well either. Finally getting the rematch with Goku (that they brought up over and over), finally admitting to having feelings for people other than himself, and finally admitting that Goku is #1 are things that I feel are crucial to his character.

Pretty much all of this. I love posts like this, because they're examining the story from mainly a narrative/character perspective rather than a "kewlness" one. In the original run of the series, most every major arc added something of substance to the narrative, to the characters' development and progression, and that of the overall universe. Even GT made advancements in all of these areas, at least for the relatively fewer/smaller core cast of series characters that it focused on.

With much of Super so far, we're getting INCREDIBLY little of that. The only characters who seem like they've had even a LITTLE bit more added to them from these stories are Future Trunks (who gets some nice fleshing out of his relationship with the main timeline's Gohan that genuinely feels like its adding something to the character), Muten Roshi (who's inspiration by his students' progress to come out of retirement and continue training is at least a solid BEGINNING of a potential/possible new arc for him and gives him INFINITELY more to do as a character than anything he's had since the 80s), #17 (who in Super has taken more or less the EXACT opposite post-Z road that GT had originally given him), and Freeza (showing him being capable of working alongside Goku and the other Z Warriors is at least a new shade to the character we've never seen before, and leaves the door open for further development down the road): and all those bits of development are exceedingly minimal and incremental and come well long after all of their original storylines and character arcs had already been satisfactorily wrapped up and concluded several decades ago.

Everyone else thus far remains more or less permanently frozen right where they've been since the end of the Boo arc. SSJ God/Blue and Ultra Instinct so far exist purely for their "cool" factor, and don't seem to have impacted Goku and Vegeta's personalities or relationship between one another in the slightest; remember when Goku reaching a new SSJ form would stir the pot and add further tension between him and Vegeta and push their rivalry forward? Kinda hard to do that now, after the end of the Boo arc had satisfactorily closed the book on all the tension in that rivalry, and Super doesn't have the balls to allow Vegeta to further grow into a more mature and caring version of himself the way that GT did because it wants to pander to people's fondness for his Cell/Boo arc incarnations.

Kuririn's episodes where he's the central focus in Super are all non-starters and simply acknowledge that he's not quite ready to throw in the towel on furthering his martial arts training just yet, and not much else beyond that. Gohan seems to be stuck in an endless perpetual loop of giving up training and settling down for a peaceful life, only to be spurred back into the fray and have Piccolo train him and bring back his power and fighting ability to their earlier heights. Poor Yamucha doesn't even get the dignity of being brought back out of retirement despite Super doing exactly that for just about everyone else, down to even fucking Muten Roshi, who's been retired ever since Daimao had been given some new ventilation for his torso.

Tenshinhan we learn has started his own martial arts school, which again is endless POTENTIAL for some real development for him (and is generally a fantastic idea for him I think that actually suits him quite well), but Super hasn't gone anywhere at all with that yet (despite ample opportunities in the Tournament of Power to do so), and he remains frustratingly wasted beyond the odd cool fight scene moments here or there. And poor Goten and Trunks aren't even allowed to visibly age past their original 7/8 year old appearances, despite their ostensibly being in their preteens at this point, and have regressed into barely present background props akin to Puar, Oolong, and Chaozu.

We can be here all day going over this, but its a moot point. Super is what it is already now, and doesn't look like its going to be changing much anytime soon, content to grind its wheels in the mud of Z's endpoint and just provide fans who aren't ready to let this series go yet (for whatever incomprehensible reason) with endless throwaway fodder that adds nothing of consequence or pushes the series in any way further forward (despite containing all kinds of ideas and concepts that could VERY EASILY do just that).

GT was also guilty of wasting a ton of characters as well, but at least it had the good sense to not even PRETEND like it was focusing on or concerned with developing just about ANY of them, and instead put all its development and emphasis squarely on the relatively few characters it was concerned with (mostly just Goku, Trunks, Pan, Vegeta, and Mr. Satan) and gave them all (along with the overall general DB universe itself) some satisfying closure.

Super not only grinds its tires in the mud without ANY of the real development given to the overall series that GT had, but it frustratingly pays lip-service to just the NOTION that it MIGHT be concerned with giving all these series regulars some real development and forward momentum... and just never quite gets around to actually doing it, despite having now had what, fucking FIVE whole story arcs now? That's one more arc than Z had and with almost nearly the same rough episode count as the original DB's anime.

As I look back on it, I'm starting to think that one of the reasons why Zamasu is probably one of Super's most successful characters is that he's one of the ONLY characters in the WHOLE series to actually have a complete arc to him. On the whole I find him to be one of the only legitimately worthwhile things to take away from Super, even if there's a bunch of other issues to be had with the general plotline of his "saga".

Its also kinda sad to say, but as I look back on it (and where its likely going to be headed in the near-future) Super has effectively proven itself to be Dragon Ball's almost EXACT equivalent (like to almost a disturbingly identical degree) to Disney's current batch of Star Wars movies: a bunch of kernels of legitimately cool new characters, concepts, and ideas with genuine potential to them that go COMPLETELY wasted and pay only deceptive lip-service to the idea of narrative forward momentum (with token "original series' creator" names working in very limited capacity behind the scenes: namely Akira Toriyama and Laurence Kasdan respectively), because the executive suits behind the whole endeavor lack the balls to actually take creative risks and move the series ahead into brand new territory or have any sort of forward progression and instead just want to endlessly wallow in "iconic" and familiar character and story beats that they know fans' love the most from the series' original classic run, hoping that that kind of shameless fanservice pandering will be enough to sustain endless profits for the foreseeable future.

The parallels between where both these franchises currently are with their new "revival" material is pretty striking to me, and also kinda depressing at how little it apparently takes to genuinely please such large swathes of fans for these things.

Its basically this whole slick routine where we get endless repetitive re-enactments of famous and once-unique and compelling stories, character arcs, and moments from each of these two series that have gripped fans' imaginations for decades now, but disguised and reskinned over JUST enough so that the marketing can have exactly enough plausible deniability to go "See? All new material! We're taking "risks" (not really) AND giving you more and more of exactly what you like and want out of these! (never mind that that's a contradiction and those two aims don't exactly line up perfectly)"

And the tragedy is that those bits and pieces of new ideas used to mask and cover over the otherwise xeroxed repetition are genuinely, legitimately cool and bursting with promise and potential to do ACTUALLY cool new things with the story and characters. A Dragon Ball multiverse with countless universes filled with all kinds of strange and more powerful new martial artists with abilities we've never encountered before is a FANTASTIC idea that genuinely COULD push the series post-Boo arc into new and increasingly even weirder and more outlandish territory.

A smart and disciplined Kaioshin driven to psychotic, homicidal madness by the whimsical, lackadaisical nature of the DB Universe and its pantheon of slacker deities and increasingly god-level mortal martial artists being allowed to run wild? That's an AWESOME villain concept that even gives the series room to get meta with itself about its own distinctive tone and sense of humor. More classic Wuxia concepts the series hasn't used yet like celestial/godly Ki and Mushin/Wuxin getting brought into the mix? Great! I'm all for it!

But all these elements that COULD make for a genuinely fantastic all new continuation of Dragon Ball are largely wasted or otherwise held back from developing into something, because there's an obvious abject fear and restraint holding the various writers at Toei (and who knows to how much of an extent Toriyama) back from really diving head-first into these all new, uncharted waters full throttle and instead constantly backpedaling and relying on old, classic DB series ideas and story beats to overwhelm the narrative and keep it from changing, developing, and progressing into something TOO far removed from where Z had left off at the end of the Boo arc.

Bring back Future Trunks and have him back in his old familiar role as doomsayer from a dark apocalyptic future, warning Goku and co. of an oncoming threat that will kill Goku and his family in the near-future. Bring back Freeza and do next to NOTHING new or interesting with him for an entire story arc featuring him as the main front-and-center villain: just have him show up with a bunch of men and slug it out with Goku and Vegeta all over again and call it a day.

Then bring back Freeza YET AGAIN, and tease at doing something legitimately new and interesting with him by forcing him to align with Goku and the others... only to have it ultimately go nowhere except leading him RIGHT BACK to square fucking one leading his evil space empire and chilling in the background ready to cause more shit for Goku and co. in the future like some cheesy Saturday morning cartoon supervillain with weekly schemes to be thwarted.

Those cool, untouched-by-DB classic Wuxia concepts? Just have them be glorified excuses for "new" (i.e. lazily recolored) SSJ transformations that no one asked for. Keep time from marching forward any and leave everyone perpetually frozen in their late-Boo arc selves. Hell we actually got a pair of AWESOME brand new dogi designs for Goku and Vegeta, and Toei couldn't even bring themselves to hang onto those for more than a couple arcs before reverting both characters back to their classic Cell/Boo arc outfits for really no good reason at all except marketability of the familiar.

A series that was once famous and notable for ALWAYS constantly changing, evolving, and reinventing itself (sometimes quite radically) is now stuck in this "the status quo is God" rut that used to be the EXACT ANTITHESIS of what it always was and represented. And that's a damn shame, because while DB was never at all perfect, these are problems that are relatively new to it (apart from a few of the old movies anyway, which of course notably did plenty of recycling of concepts) and didn't have to get introduced into its creative bloodstream (all the more so seeing as how it was already well and truly finished for decades).

And I can't help but get the impression that this is the sort of endless repetition of repackaged old ideas (thinly papered over by frustratingly cool and interesting new ones) is largely what we're gonna be in store for for some time yet; especially since it seems like enough fans are genuinely satisfied with it and just want to endlessly relive the same old shit that they remember fondly from when they were kids. And that's really too bad and a terrible waste of a series that I remember once being fairly varied and unpredictable with its overall general direction.

Maybe Super has an ending in store for us down the road that'll really knock all our socks off: its POSSIBLE, but I'm not betting money on it judging by what its had for us so far. As it stands, both Z's epilogue or GT episode 64 are both VASTLY better end-points for this series (GT's giving as water-tight closure to things as anyone could possibly ask for) and should've remained that way. As things stand, if the suits at Toei have their way, Super's ending will likely be that it HAS NO ending at all, and DB gets dragged into full-on endless franchise zombie mode for god knows how many years/decades down the road.

For those to whom that prospect is genuinely enticing and exciting: everyone's entitled to their opinion and whatnot, but mine is that y'all are crazy and need to let this shit go already.

But hey: on the bright side, if nothing else, Zamasu is a blast and a half to play as in FighterZ.

Well we still have the movie coming up and also Frieza changing his evil ways is kinda jumping the shark material and also he is on the complete monster page of dragon ball. Don't compare it to Star Wars just don't. We are still awaiting the movie so just chill out already plus more video games to come.

[Toxin45]

As things stand, if the suits at Toei have their way, Super's ending will likely be that it HAS NO ending at all, and DB gets dragged into full-on endless franchise zombie mode for god knows how many years/decades down the road.

Based on how well it's doing financially, DB as a franchise will never end. In terms of Super, I think it'll end when Toriyama's done (yes, I fully believe he has an end point in mind) and Toei will simply start a new show with a new writer(s). I think once that happens you're going to see a lot of the older fans who grew up with the original go with Toriyama as like you said, it'll go full zombie mode (not that Super doesn't have these issues) which none of us want to see but that's the reality of this franchise based entertainment era we're living in.

Well there are the video games though and they probably make heroes a fully fledged anime.