Canon after Toriyama?

[Desassina]

Why do we have to make up scenarios that didn't happen to go against an established idea? I shake my head in disapproval. Might as well argue with "not happened".

It has strong implications when Toriyama's involvement in Dragon Ball Online didn't make it a follow up to the series.

Huh? What do you mean?

Akira Toriyama was involved with plot points and art for Dragon Ball Online. He didn't acknowledge it as a follow up like he did with Dragon Ball Super. Therefore, it is not canon, with continuity or acceptance having played its role.

[Cetra]

Why do we have to make up scenarios that didn't happen to go against an established idea? I shake my head in disapproval. Might as well argue with "not happened".

Because that's literally the only thing you can do if you want to ignore blatantly obvious logic when it comes to decisive power and rights. I shake my head not in disapproval (which by the way sounds ridiculous, you are a random stranger I will never see in my entire life, I don't need your approval) but because this response reflects perfectly what's wrong with this community. "Not happened" is no argument against something like that. That's not how to disregard the decisive power of creative authority and to discuss the rights of proprietors. And for the record, your "not happened" is wrong. George Lucas dislikes a lot of ideas about Star Wars. And he cannot do a single thing about it. Ridley Scott hates a lot of ideas the other creative authorities have brought into the Blade Runner series (e.g. he insits on Deckart being a Replicant but both the writer of both movies as well as the director of the new one as well as a new writer of the new ones are completely against it). But that does not change the fact that he is not the sole decisive authority. Those are just two of many examples. You are literally taking the stuff that you want and disregarding logic and law itself to not move away from your position. As well as is your "established idea" also totally incomplete. You have also just taken what you needed. That's not how to argue but what should I expect from the internet, the problem already begins from you by reflecting your missing dedication about proper discussion by misusing a word that is no adjective as an adjective like many others do that just want to argue about canonicity for the sake of arguing. But of course you will go on and write your response that will not move us forward because that's what happens 95% of the time a person on this planet says something, so whatever.

[Desassina]

edited out.

[Cetra]

Finally! You stopped taking jabs and decided to straight into a beat down. Now that's what I would expect from a "random internet user". I hated those shots taken indirectly through passive aggressive behaviour. Feed on that anger my boy!

There was not a single response that was "passive aggressive" but nice trolling attempt to cover up your provocative post from 4 hours ago.

Terminator's creative rights are returning to James Cameron. He didn't like having them stolen from the new rights holders. That's one of the "many examples not cited".

Even that goes through the a process of law and the does not change the fact that a person who owns something while another one does not has the power over that instance. Something that you once again ignored.

This doesn't deserve a new post, so I'll edit this one... LMAO! I've been working for 3 hours straight. Get a life my boy.

You are very skilled at repeating the "my boy" all the time but I am pretty sure you are a lot younger than me, otherwise you would not ignore people's arguments just to troll them and call logically funded arguments "beat down". Actually that is quite psychotic and shows that you are really trying to distract to actually disregard the arguments like you did over a week ago when you edited a post instead of posting me a PM. But whatever - you are reported. May the mods handle this.

[Desassina]

The discussion is over. We ended it through messages and I apologized. No need for action due to my behaviour.

[Cetra]

Fine, but I would still prefer if Ajay or anyone else destroys the last 6 posts or so to bring back the flow.

[PsionicWarrior]

Because that's literally the only thing you can do if you want to ignore blatantly obvious logic when it comes to decisive power and rights. I shake my head not in disapproval but because this response reflects perfectly what's wrong with this community.

Well I mean that's like, your opinion lol
By your logic if some random clown would by the IP and start make Broly canon or transforms Goku in a little girl you will regard it as canonical, sure, your call lol

[Cetra]

Not again ...

First of all: Please do us a favor and drop these annoying lols. I am not the only one in this forum you annoy with a lol after 99% of your sentences as you must have seen by now when other people responded with stuff like "why don't you add a couple more lols" or mocked you with a reply that contained a lol after each line and the likes.
Second: No, that's not "my opinion". It is incredible that you want to ignore simple law of ownership. Stop twisting my argument - that are very elementary so they should be pretty easily be understood by someone who does not argue for merely polemic reasons - if you do not even understand it (as you have shown multiple times in one of your posts where you claimed I would say everything official is canonical which was not close to what I said) or even worse, defend stuff that is not legal. While you relied on over-exaggeration in your argument just to troll, no, if that "random-clown" owns enough share of the franchise together with the decisive rights that I have mentioned ad infinitum, THEN what he says, goes. Even if it is a "random clown", whatever that means. You cannot just be all "oh, I don't like that person that owns (part of) a franchise and/or rights to decide its fate so that person has no say in that" as if your opinion as consumer matters so much. That is not how the rights of an owner are written. People love Kojima Hideo for what he did for Metal Gear. And they hate what Konami lately does with the franchise. But Konami owns Metal Gear. And Kojima-san cannot change that. As can't his fans. Now next time you answer please either stop using lols or stop disrespecting law and that of course if people invest their money to get certain stuff, e.g. an entire franchise, a share of it or at least decisive power (you know, there is a reason why no one of you can bring in an actual argument against right holders, because there is no argument against it so the only way for you is to either disregard that argument or try to mock your way through - instead you should actually accept it because you cannot change that) - whatever you want to choose - I am fine, as long as your posts show a change. Or alternative 3: Stop answering me if you do not want to do any of that.

[PsionicWarrior]

I don't see why I should change the way I post to please you, I am not being insulting or showing disrespect (unlike you branding me as troll lol), and yeah we already had this discussion elsewhere and will likely never agree lol

[Jackalope89]

Not again ...

First of all: Please do us a favor and drop these annoying lols. I am not the only one in this forum you annoy with a lol after 99% of your sentences as you must have seen by now when other people responded with stuff like "why don't you add a couple more lols" or mocked you with a reply that contained a lol after each line and the likes.
Second: No, that's not "my opinion". It is incredible that you want to ignore simple law of ownership. Stop twisting my argument - that are very elementary so they should be pretty easily be understood by someone who does not argue for merely polemic reasons - if you do not even understand it (as you have shown multiple times in one of your posts where you claimed I would say everything official is canonical which was not close to what I said) or even worse, defend stuff that is not legal. While you relied on over-exaggeration in your argument just to troll, no, if that "random-clown" owns enough share of the franchise together with the decisive rights that I have mentioned ad infinitum, THEN what he says, goes. Even if it is a "random clown", whatever that means. You cannot just be all "oh, I don't like that person that owns (part of) a franchise and/or rights to decide its fate so that person has no say in that" as if your opinion as consumer matters so much. That is not how the rights of an owner are written. People love Kojima Hideo for what he did for Metal Gear. And they hate what Konami lately does with the franchise. But Konami owns Metal Gear. And Kojima-san cannot change that. As can't his fans. Now next time you answer please either stop using lols or stop disrespecting law and that of course if people invest their money to get certain stuff, e.g. an entire franchise, a share of it or at least decisive power (you know, there is a reason why no one of you can bring in an actual argument against right holders, because there is no argument against it so the only way for you is to either disregard that argument or try to mock your way through - instead you should actually accept it because you cannot change that) - whatever you want to choose - I am fine, as long as your posts show a change. Or alternative 3: Stop answering me if you do not want to do any of that.

Or, on the flipside, you could not post walls of text.

[Cetra]

Or, on the flipside, you could not post walls of text.

And why should I do that? So people have less details to understand the position where this comes from and then bring in the same arguments that have been brought up over again and thus I cannot speed up the whole argument with a lengthy post that instantaneously covers a lot more than a shorter one where people would only wait to respond to 1-2 liners? "Walls of text are too much" arguments are useless in this situation and only ask for shorter posts that would only once more lure in shorter responds that are entirely predictable and can be made redundant by answering the possible responses in advance. There is a reason why I rather write a longer paragraph than a one-liner. This recommendation would make sense if a paragraph written would be problematic because it is too much to read, too distracting, e.g. As it only exists to speed up the argument by immediately summarizing a lot of necessary stuff this is not the case.

[Jackalope89]

Or, on the flipside, you could not post walls of text.

And why should I do that? So people have less details to understand the position where this comes from and then bring in the same arguments that have been brought up over again and thus I cannot speed up the whole argument with a lengthy post that instantaneously covers a lot more than a shorter one where people would only wait to respond to 1-2 liners? "Walls of text are too much" arguments are useless in this situation and only ask for shorter posts that would only once more lure in shorter responds that are entirely predictable and can be made redundant by answering the possible responses in advance. There is a reason why I rather write a longer paragraph than a one-liner. This recommendation would make sense if a paragraph written would be problematic because it is too much to read, too distracting, e.g. As it only exists to speed up the argument by immediately summarizing a lot of necessary stuff this is not the case.

It's called "paragraphing". Breaking up walls of text in paragraphs of about 6 lines or 6 sentences tops. It makes it easier for EVERYONE to read. Not my fault you can't be bothered to press the "Enter" button every so often.

[shadowmaria]

(and probably Dragon Ball GT) events do not take place in the "main continuity", but their events certainly did happen in another dimension of Universe 7. As Toriyama himself said it and games (which are also official sources) work and expand on the concept.

Toriyama has never said this about GT.

Also the games do not affect canonical standing in any capacity. IF they did, I'd like to see why Vegeta's never used Super Saiyan 3 after he gained it after the fight with Buu (per the first time he got that in a game - I believe it was Raging Blast)

Dragon Ball timeline displayed at Tenkaichi Budosai 2017 event.
GT takes place after DBS/DBZ.

I believe and always took this to mean that Toei Animation and Shueisha are stating that GT still happens after the events of Super, despite the (only) contradictions being Frieza being alive and Kibito Kai being defused.

[sunsetshimmer]

I believe and always took this to mean that Toei Animation and Shueisha are stating that GT still happens after the events of Super, despite the (only) contradictions being Frieza being alive and Kibito Kai being defused.

Yes, Toriyama probably doesn't take GT into account, but TOEI and Shueisha do.
Anyway, there are other contradictions like complete lack of god forms and golden Frieza, Pilaf gang being old or Trunks actually knowing 17 (in GT he only recognized him because he had similar energy to 18). But i don't think they even care.

[VegettoEX]

The discussion is over. We ended it through messages and I apologized. No need for action due to my behaviour.

That's not how things work. While we certainly appreciate and encourage people reflecting on and course-changing inappropriate behavior, that does not in and of itself excuse and wipe out prior infractions. Everyone is responsible and accountable for their actions. Appropriate account action can and will be taken if and when necessary.

Attitudes in general are way off course in this thread and should be reigned in according to the community guidelines.

[Desassina]

I can only get you to sanction me I gotta find a topic that is worth of your attention for things better than that.

[sintzu]

I believe Toei Animation and Shueisha are stating that GT still happens after the events of Super, despite the (only) contradictions being Frieza being alive and Kibito Kai being defused.

There are plenty of other contradictions such as the new forms and Super stating that there's no life left in U7 while GT is the opposite with the planets they visit. Although Toriyama isn't taking GT's events into account, I think once he's done Toei will either make something that connects everything together or remake GT to fit within Super's story. GT is now at a point thanks to super where it's popular and profitable enough to take a second chance at with an anime so hopefully they get things right the 2nd time around.

[shadowmaria]

I believe Toei Animation and Shueisha are stating that GT still happens after the events of Super, despite the (only) contradictions being Frieza being alive and Kibito Kai being defused.

There are plenty of other contradictions such as the new forms and Super stating that there's no life left in U7 while GT is the opposite with the planets they visit. .

Universe 7 has 28 planets with life. Including GT's worlds plus everything in the Universe from Super, etc., there's still less than 28 planets.

And what I listed above are strictly two that can't be hand-waived.

[linkdude20002001]

I'd like to point out that there can be multiple canons based on what you're reading/watching/who-you-ask. The Tenchi Muyo! series has like three different canons. All official. Now, as far as I'm aware, in DB there hasn't been any stated "official canons", so that leaves it up to the fans to decide. The DB canon, despite only having four TV shows, is a LOT more complicated than Tenchi's eight, so I can understand fans not agreeing... But it's okay to have different canons. It should be expected in fact.

[ABED]

I'd like to point out that there can be multiple canons based on what you're reading/watching/who-you-ask. The Tenchi Muyo! series has like three different canons. All official. Now, as far as I'm aware, in DB there hasn't been any stated "official canons", so that leaves it up to the fans to decide. The DB canon, despite only having four TV shows, is a LOT more complicated than Tenchi's eight, so I can understand fans not agreeing... But it's okay to have different canons. It should be expected in fact.

I agree that there can be different canons, but fans don't determine what's canon. At best, we can speculate.