Canon after Toriyama?

[Mister_Popo]

So with the Star Wars-franchise, George Lucas does no longer write the stories of the new movies, he does no longer make 'canon' himself. Lucasfilm Story Group, owned by Lucasfilm Ltd and Disney, dictates what's canon and what's not.

If Toriyama sadly enough would die one day or call it a day and no longer write more stories, could he hand over those rights to a certain entity, maybe some division within TOEI, to make further content that's an official continuation of the story and canon as such?

TOEI animation is expanding his DB-division, so i wonder if this process isn't already being prepared to some degree? Toriyama probably isn't going to keep on working til he's 75.

The original movies nor GT are considered an official part of the story / universe.
But if Toriyama would acknowledge this new 'entity' as the one who continues the official story in his name, would you still consider this continuation, although if that's not made up by Toriyama himself, as canon?

That would basically mean the official story of the franchise will never end.

[Grimlock]

There is no canon even with Akira Toriyama on board, let alone there be a canon after him. After all, nor him, nor Toei nor Shueisha have come out to dictate what is canonical and what is not. The movies (and probably Dragon Ball GT) events do not take place in the "main continuity", but their events certainly did happen in another dimension of Universe 7. As Toriyama himself said it and games (which are also official sources) work and expand on the concept.

As for the other question, it all depends on their intention. If the responsible for the work come out and say that those events happen in the "main continuity", then it does.

[Geekdom101]

There is no canon even with Akira Toriyama on board, let alone there be a canon after him. After all, nor him, nor Toei nor Shueisha have come out to dictate what is canonical and what is not. The movies (and probably Dragon Ball GT) events do not take place in the "main continuity", but their events certainly did happen in another dimension of Universe 7. As Toriyama himself said it and games (which are also official sources) work and expand on the concept.

As for the other question, it all depends on their intention. If the responsible for the work come out and say that those events happen in the "main continuity", then it does.

This is correct.

There is no canon. Stop thinking about it, much less fighting over it folks.

[ABED]

There are canons, you don't need for an explicit announcement. Anyway, it doesn't matter whether something is canon or not, as long as it's good. People put too much emphasis on these sorts of issues.

[Mister_Popo]

I did enjoy some of the filler stuff in DBZ and a lot of the movies as well. I don't explicitly need a canon-announcement to enjoy it. The question was posed to ask other fans alike what's their opinion on the matter, how they interpret it.
The original author at the moment still dictates the main storylines, if he'd let go completely, how you'd feel about it, would you consider it as an official continuation or rather something to enjoy that's different?

[KBABZ]

Dragon Ball, pretty much since the anime started, has had many many continuities that basically assure that it's all a big giant mess, because they're all self-contained to themselves (for example, Xenoverse is just Xenoverse, Heroes is just Heroes, GT is just GT), but they're all derived from the core manga. I don't think the Dragon Ball Room discussions are fretting over what's canon and what isn't at this point since it's really not a topic they care about. If they were we wouldn't have two different After Z products in GT and Super, for example. About the only canon we have is that the manga rules over all, followed by the current anime line (atm it's DB > Z > Super) and then everything else does what they want.

I don't think Toriyama's passing will really affect the canon. His involvement with Super has been debated in it's significance beyond story outlines, for example. I think it says a lot that despite his participation there, many fans still hold Super as a separate entity to the manga/Z and hold those far higher than either iteration of Super. Him being dead certainly won't change that very much for any new product going forward.

[Mister_Popo]

Super isn't 'canon' like the original manga was, but the original author still is involved to some degree in the official continuation. In the movie he will be even more involved than he was in Super. I don't say TOEI would not be able to make good stories on their own and they wouldn't be enjoyable. If the original author would no longer be involved in any way, would the story lose it's last 'straw' of authenticity?

[KBABZ]

If the original author would no longer be involved in any way, would the story lose it's last 'straw' of authenticity?

IMO not really. As I stated above, Toriyama's involvement is light at best as far as we know, and most people hold the manga as the core authentic piece of Dragon Ball, with Z a close second. Super is fun-but-optional at best I think for fans at large, so any worried about authenticity would be for naught I'd say. It kind of helps that Super has been quite base-breaking even with Toriyama's involvement.

[sintzu]

As of now Toriyama only takes his stories into account while writing so that's what's Canon but when someone else takes over they could easily change that by taking things such as the old movies into account or reintroducing their elements.

[Desassina]

Canon is a super set of the original author, in the sense that the latter is included, and not the other way around. Akira Toriyama accepts DBS as a related work in the same continuity as the one that he's the author of.

Canon [Related works [Continuity [Authorship]]]

[Cetra]

Canon is a super set of the original author, in the sense that the latter is included, and not the other way around. Akira Toriyama accepts DBS as a related work in the same continuity as the one that he's the author of.

Canon [Related works [Continuity [Authorship]]]

Yeah, no. "Canon" is Latin for scale or guideline. No more and no less. In no way or shape does it require the original original original author of something. That is just one of the many rules that fans invent for themselves. What is canonical is way easier defined through the question about the intent of creative autority and those who have property. Naturally this in most cases goes to an original author but not always. I invent something you buy my brand and decide what is canonical about it. And I have no longer any say in this unless you want me to.

And people should really stop disrespecting Shueisha and Toei's influence on the franchise.

[Desassina]

Yeah, no, but yes! You have nothing on strict set theory. Canon including Toriyama doesn't mean that other people can't try their best to get included in an outer layer. They won't take his place in the sense that every other work isn't going to get inspiration from what Toriyama himself started. Should the original author be the super set, then canon would be his to define, because it is included in everything that he does. It is obviously not the case in my post, so I suggest that you read things carefully, or get to know them before the snarky responses.

[PFM18]

There is no canon even with Akira Toriyama on board, let alone there be a canon after him. After all, nor him, nor Toei nor Shueisha have come out to dictate what is canonical and what is not. The movies (and probably Dragon Ball GT) events do not take place in the "main continuity", but their events certainly did happen in another dimension of Universe 7. As Toriyama himself said it and games (which are also official sources) work and expand on the concept.

As for the other question, it all depends on their intention. If the responsible for the work come out and say that those events happen in the "main continuity", then it does.

This is correct.

There is no canon. Stop thinking about it, much less fighting over it folks.

You always talk about this in your videos and I never really understood it.

Toriyama acknowledges GT as a seperate side story that he seems to like, Just about everybody acknowledges that the movies happen in another continuity because they don't jive with the manga or make any sense with the manga. These things are like Grimlock mentioned, "not part of the main continuity", but "canon" just gives us a word to distinguish between things that are and aren't part of the main continuity. Filler material, movies, nor GT cannot really be used in an argument discussing In-Universe ideas of the DB franchise because they do not fit. It is easier to describe these parts of the material as "non-canon." The canon is just an easy way to express what is specifically Toriyama's story rather than a collection of all the other stuff that doesn't fit in the continuity. That is all that "canon" means. I don't see how you can just say that there is no canon.

Toriyama and Toei do not actually use the word "canon" but that is perfectly fine to use for us for the purposes of recognizing what is and isn't part of the main continuity. They acknowledge that the story is segmented where some portions apply to the manga and some do not, they just do not use the literal word "canon." Just because the owners of the DB franchise do not explictly state things are or aren't canon, doesn't mean we cannot discuss these things amongst ourselves.

There IS a canon, it is just a matter of whether you care if it is canon or not. Perfectly good material can be made that isn't canon. But we get things on both sides of the spectrum.

[KBABZ]

"Canon" is Latin for scale or guideline.

Most people's interpretation of the word I find is more similar to Biblical Canon. Per Wikipedia (slightly edited for brevity):

A "biblical canon" or "canon of scripture" is a set of texts (or "books") which a particular religious community regards as authoritative scripture. The English word "canon" comes from the Greek κανών, meaning "rule" or "measuring stick".

Most of the canons listed below are considered by adherents "closed" (i.e., books cannot be added or removed), reflecting a belief that public revelation has ended and thus some person or persons can gather approved inspired texts into a complete and authoritative canon, which scholar Bruce Metzger defines as "an authoritative collection of books". In contrast, an "open canon", which permits the addition of books through the process of continuous revelation, Metzger defines as "a collection of authoritative books".

Obviously Dragon Ball works are much more complex as far as determining canon, but for me, because of how jumbled it all is, GT is canon to itself and is a branch from the anime continuity the ended with Z. Super is similarly canon to itself and also branches off from the Z anime, but isn't with GT thus far.

You always talk about this in your videos and I never really understood it.

I think what he means is that ultimately there is no one true core version of Dragon Ball outside of the manga + Jaco + DB-. There's been so many additions and variations and combinations from over the years that debating over which were "real" and which weren't is a futile effort, particularly when people hold so much stock in anime filler. It's easier to just forget it and keep it at how things branch off of each other (like my GT/Super thing above).

---

On a related note, it's worth pointing out that the Bardock TV Special basically got included into the manga canon by way of Toriyama having the Bardock cameo in the manga... which then got revised with the DB- strip, relegating the TV Special as canon only to the anime specifically. (see? Confusing!)

[Grimlock]

It is easier to describe these parts of the material as "non-canon." The canon is just an easy way to express what is specifically Toriyama's story rather than a collection of all the other stuff that doesn't fit in the continuity. That is all that "canon" means. I don't see how you can just say that there is no canon.

That goes straight into conflict that since there is no canon in this franchise, I can consider whatever I want. Who is to say I am wrong to consider Dragon Ball Online canonical? Since, according to you (plural/generic), the canon is all about Toriyama's work, we know to hell that Toriyama was involved in the game. Where is the official canon saying that I can't see it fitting with the "main continuity" since he was created to be part of it?

Without an official canon established, all I see are opinions: "this is cannon, that is not cannon" (and that damned spelling), and people voicing their opinions as if they were facts.


And just so we are clear: "Canon" is not synonym for "continuity", they are two different ideas. To be out of a continuity does not necessarily means something is not canonical, and vice-versa (which in this case, the sentence would end as "is not part of a(nother) continuity". Without such concept in this franchise, who is to say that movie villains couldn't come out of Goku Black's rift? We only didn't see it in the anime because unfortunately they like to keep themselves in the safe zone, but we see it in Xenoverse. Hell, Goku Black himself theorized that that rift could lead to another dimension. Anything could have happened in that moment if they were smart enough.

[Miracles]

There is a canon/main story/authority of Dragonball according to Toriyama.

He said Dragonball is his foundational manga and the anime. He also clearly stated the DBZ movies are a "separate dimension" story since he was "WHOLLY an audience" member to them. He also stated Dragonball GT is a "side-story."

[AnimeNation101]

There is no canon even with Akira Toriyama on board, let alone there be a canon after him. After all, nor him, nor Toei nor Shueisha have come out to dictate what is canonical and what is not. The movies (and probably Dragon Ball GT) events do not take place in the "main continuity", but their events certainly did happen in another dimension of Universe 7. As Toriyama himself said it and games (which are also official sources) work and expand on the concept.

As for the other question, it all depends on their intention. If the responsible for the work come out and say that those events happen in the "main continuity", then it does.

This is correct.

There is no canon. Stop thinking about it, much less fighting over it folks.

Wait. So basically there is no canon. All there is is different continuities. And in those continuities there are a string of projects that follow each other making up that specific continuity.

Ex)

Continuity 1: DB manga

Continuity 2: Db anime —> dbz anime —> dbs anime and dbs manga —> dbs movie

Continuity 3: DBZ movies

Continuity 4: DBGT

Continuity 5: Dragon Ball Online

Continuity 6: Dragon Ball Xenoverse —> Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2

Continuity 7: Dragon Ball FighterZ (Android 21 arc)

Continuity 8: Dragon ball Heroes —> Super Dragon Ball Heroes

Continuity 9: DBHeroes manga

Continuity 10: Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultimate Mission (3ds game) —> Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultimate Mission 2 (3ds game) —> Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultimate Mission X

Continuity 11: Reincarnated as Yamcha manga

Continuity 12: Dragon Ball Legends

And some of these continuities tend to have some of the same content as other continuities such as Cooler from dbz movies in DBGT or basically how there is something from every continuity in heroes like how there is a Super version of Goku but its not THE Super Goku from the actual Dragon Ball Super series.

Is that basically what dragon ball is?

[Grimlock]

like how there is a Super version of Goku but its not THE Super Goku from the actual Dragon Ball Super series.

There is nothing stating that that Goku is not the one from the actual Dragon Ball Super series.

Is that basically what dragon ball is?

Pretty much, yes. Although I would disagree with some of the choices you made (that's another discussion though). That's how Dragon Ball works.

[PFM18]

I guess I'm gonna just have to agree to disagree.

To me, if it wasn't written by Toriyama or had heavy involvement from Toriyama, then it isn't canon. Simple as that.

[AnimeNation101]

like how there is a Super version of Goku but its not THE Super Goku from the actual Dragon Ball Super series.

There is nothing stating that that Goku is not the one from the actual Dragon Ball Super series.

Is that basically what dragon ball is?

Pretty much, yes. Although I would disagree with some of the choices you made (that's another discussion though). That's how Dragon Ball works.

DBHeroes and DBS are different continuities. DBH doesn’t actually crossover with other continuinities. Rather, it introduces characters identical to those from other continuities into its own continuity. Goku from DBS can’t be the same Goku from the Prison Planet Arc just like how the Goku from DBLegends also isn’t the Goku from DBS. They’re all just DBS Gokus’ within their own continuity.