Canon after Toriyama?

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:41 am

Shineman wrote:it seems that non-canon is often used negatively against something one does not like personally, etc
Well no it's just that it's non-canon lol
Quality or personal preference does not depend on canon lol

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:18 am

Shineman wrote:I posted this a while ago in regards to how canon should be treated (not for this franchise, but for all fictional content).
Shineman wrote:I think it might be a whole a lot of easier to defined canon as something like this:

Canon as a collection of accepted works. In the case of Dragon Ball, every form of Dragon Ball—official produced material—is accepted in the Dragon Ball canon. That includes movies, Dragon Ball Heroes, every single officially produced video games, clothing line, that Dragon Ball logo on a soda can produced officially by the right-owners, etc.

Non-Canon does not (and shouldn't) exist in this definition -- because it's redundant (nowadays, it seems that non-canon is often used negatively against something one does not like personally, etc). Whether or not things fit in a timeline has no bearing on their canon status.

As for what fits what, this should be referred as "continuity". A canon can have multiple continuities (i.e Marvel and DC). For Dragon Ball, obviously, there is a "main continuity" which states certain events actually happened, while others are simply cast off in their own continuities. For example, Broly films do not exist in the "main continuity" but exist as their own, respective continuity. It should be noted that contradictions/lack of explanations has no bearings in continuities. Until stated otherwise, it should be treated as part of that said continuity.

With that said, going off of official statements, the main continuity should look this:
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman [Stated as a Prequel of Dragon Ball]
Dragon Ball [Manga/Anime/Kai]
Dragon Ball Super [stated to occurred between the 10 years between Boo Arc and the Last Chapter. The manga was declared as a promotional material for the Anime, but it can count as well.]
Dragon Ball GT [Sequel to Dragon Ball and stated as a "Grand Side Story" of Dragon Ball]

Anything else falls within their own continuities.

I agree a franchise can have seperate continuities, dimensions or realities. 'Canon' is commonly referred to as the main continuity. GT is definitely a part of the DB-franchise, but it's not the main continuity. 'Non-canon' and 'headcanon' are sometimes used to be respectful against some creations, perceptions or ideas. It wasn't my intention to bash on GT in this case, it just isn't canon in my opinion at this point, that's all.

If we would get an indicatation in the main timelime to the events of GT, Heroes and why they occur in different dimensions for instance, from that moment onwards, they become a part of the main storyline, an explaination is given why these 'parallel universes' exist and why they are connected somehow to the main universe. From that moment on, it would become 'canon' in my eyes, because there would be a connection inside the story. Until now we haven't gotten any reference point to the events in GT perceived from the main timeline.

If there were a spinoff-series about the adventures of Trunks in an alternative future, but if he'd never have appeared in Z or Super, he wouldn't have been canon, just a part of the franchise.

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Shineman » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:09 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Shineman wrote:it seems that non-canon is often used negatively against something one does not like personally, etc
Well no it's just that it's non-canon lol
Quality or personal preference does not depend on canon lol
How so?

In order for something to be “non-canon”, the right holders of the franchise would need to have nothing do with that content (meaning, no distributions, no royalties, nothing; basically, something fan-fictions would be categorized as such).

That is where the term becomes redundant: the sheer notation that a canon is a collection of everything officially produced by the right holders—then common sense should occurred to brush away things not produced by them.
Mister_Popo wrote:I agree a franchise can have seperate continuities, dimensions or realities. 'Canon' is commonly referred to as the main continuity. GT is definitely a part of the DB-franchise, but it's not the main continuity. 'Non-canon' and 'headcanon' are sometimes used to be respectful against some creations, perceptions or ideas. It wasn't my intention to bash on GT in this case, it just isn't canon in my opinion, that's all.
Oh, don’t worry, I wasn’t harping on you (or anyone), I was speaking in broadness of sense (generalization if you will and it’s mostly based on my own personal experiences and observations) of how people use the term “non-canon” in a negative connotation of not just in this franchise, but through various other franchises as well. The term gets thrown around quite easily to disregard a work(s) based on personal distaste, “set standard” or vice versa.

It would be much, much easier to accept that every single piece of Dragon Ball (or insert any franchise here), officially produced, is canon. Now, when we start talking about “what should I follow”, then that is where continuities come in (and let’s be honest here, I think most people make the two term interchangeable when they, in my opinion, should not).

That way, instead of saying “non canon”, you can just say, in your case, GT is not part of the main continuity (whenever you consider the makeup of the main continuity).

It’s like when DC Comics reboot their comics a few times: it’s not like the big heads from DC Comics was all "Yup, they're non-canon, away with thee"; they were simply cast out of the main continuity (until recently…? Perhaps someone with more knowledge of that franchise can fill in on that regard).

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:15 am

@Shineman

I'd hate to repeat or quote myself so I kindly redirect you to previous page lol

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:59 am

That way, instead of saying “non canon”, you can just say, in your case, GT is not part of the main continuity (whenever you consider the makeup of the main continuity).
Isn't just saying the same thing? Why not just say it's not canon?

This whole emphasis on canon feels relatively new.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:33 am

ABED wrote:This whole emphasis on canon feels relatively new.
I'd say it was brought about with things like Disney breaking off the old Star Wars Expanded Universe that got a lot of people debating what "happened" and what hasn't, plus stuff like Jaco showing up and Super clashing with elements of GT. And because additional Dragon Ball media has such a loose idea on what continuity is, we get five lengthy canon topics in half a year!

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:11 am

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:This whole emphasis on canon feels relatively new.
I'd say it was brought about with things like Disney breaking off the old Star Wars Expanded Universe that got a lot of people debating what "happened" and what hasn't, plus stuff like Jaco showing up and Super clashing with elements of GT. And because additional Dragon Ball media has such a loose idea on what continuity is, we get five lengthy canon topics in half a year!
Debates about Dragon Ball's "canon", on just this forum alone, well long predates either Disney's Star Wars acquisition, Jaco, and the Dragon Ball revival material. Just type in the word "canon" into the search, and you'll find threads filled with people nitpicking this issue every bit as fiercely all the way back in 2004.

Hell for that matter, viscous debates about Star Wars canon WAAAAAY predate the Disney buyout, and date back to at least the early 90s (if not likely earlier).
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:This whole emphasis on canon feels relatively new.
I'd say it was brought about with things like Disney breaking off the old Star Wars Expanded Universe that got a lot of people debating what "happened" and what hasn't, plus stuff like Jaco showing up and Super clashing with elements of GT. And because additional Dragon Ball media has such a loose idea on what continuity is, we get five lengthy canon topics in half a year!
Debates about Dragon Ball's "canon", on just this forum alone, well long predates either Disney's Star Wars acquisition, Jaco, and the Dragon Ball revival material. Just type in the word "canon" into the search, and you'll find threads filled with people nitpicking this issue every bit as fiercely all the way back in 2004.
Well I didn't doubt that canon debating didn't happen until recently (I'm sure it goes as far back as when the first episode of DB aired in Japan with the Pilaf castle scene), I was more trying to postulate why it's so emphasized now as ABED suggests (being rather new in the DB community I have no experience in the matter).

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:11 am

I say relatively new as in within my lifetime. People feel betrayed because things that were once canon are no longer so. It boggles my mind. Those stories still exist, so who cares if they aren't canon? Are people's enjoyment that tied to what is canon?
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Shineman » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:20 pm

ABED wrote:
That way, instead of saying “non canon”, you can just say, in your case, GT is not part of the main continuity (whenever you consider the makeup of the main continuity).
Isn't just saying the same thing? Why not just say it's not canon?

This whole emphasis on canon feels relatively new.
Not exactly.

If we accept the set definition of canon as collection of accepted works officially produced by the right holders, then “non-canon” implies that the right holders have nothing to do with the product at large. Meaning, no rights, no distribution rights, no mention of it in any other works they produced, etc.

To declare anything they created, officially produced by them, whether it is an animated series, a spin-off manga or that lunch box you had as a child as non-canon would be simply wrong. Canon has no bearings of what fits in the timeline; they are simply a collection of works. Hence, why there is no argument on whether or not “the original manga needs to be declare as “canon”. It does not, it is simply is.

If someone is trying to make up on “well, what’s the main general timeline in a chronological order”, that is where continuity comes in. Usually, right holders create a general timeline (do note, some franchises do not take account to plot holes or contradictions) for the fans; obviously in something like Dragon Ball, the main continuity is not exactly clear outside of the original manga (regardless of which version of the manga).

A canon can have multiple continuities: a “main one” and sub-continuities (where stories that do not fit in the main ones due to being what-ifs, alternate, etc. can be place here).

In the case of Disney’s Star Wars, and if someone can correct me on this, the Star Wars stories, despite being casted out from the main continuity, are still canon, since they are still selling them under the Star Wars Legends banner.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:27 pm

If we accept the set definition of canon as collection of accepted works officially produced by the right holders, then “non-canon” implies that the right holders have nothing to do with the product at large. Meaning, no rights, no distribution rights, no mention of it in any other works they produced, etc.
Then are you saying canon just means produced by an official source.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:41 pm

I think it's clear what the main anime continuation is: DB / DBZ / DBS / BOG-ROF movies / a few tv specials like Bardock and Trunks.
I found many threads about this, but it wasn't my intend to start the old movies/GT-canon debate again, i rather wanted to take a look into the future.

TOEI does own the rights to make the anime, but they don't actually own the intellectual property, right?
If Toriyama sadly enough would leave us tomorrow: i don't think TOEI could do as they like, Shueisha (the manga publisher) would still first have to give their concent to what TOEI proposes or make content themselves that TOEI can execute. Like Disney owns the rights for Star Wars, they own the rights for Dragon Ball.

"The Dragon Ball Room is basically a section for handling all mediation between the author and foreign or domestic licensees and helping with editorial supervision and contracts relating to filming and commercialization of Dragon Ball and other works by Akira Toriyama. We decided to establish a new section for managing the rights of Akira Toriyamas work and other things to keep the franchise going indefinitely." (Iyoku, head of the DB Room)

So Shueishas Dragon Ball Room basically would become what the Lucasfilm Story Group is for Star Wars if Toriyama dies.

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:07 am

Mister_Popo wrote: TOEI does own the rights to make the anime, but they don't actually own the intellectual property, right?
AFAIK that's right lol

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Shineman » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:46 am

ABED wrote:
If we accept the set definition of canon as collection of accepted works officially produced by the right holders, then “non-canon” implies that the right holders have nothing to do with the product at large. Meaning, no rights, no distribution rights, no mention of it in any other works they produced, etc.
Then are you saying canon just means produced by an official source.
Precisely.

Now that I think about it, the only time something is declared "non-canon", where a rights holders (putting this in the context of Dragon Ball) sworn off something is when they removed anything (well, for the most part? I'm sure VegettoEX and anyone knowledgeable in this subject knows the nitty gritty on the explicit details) that traces back to Yamamoto's musical score.
Mister_Popo wrote:I think it's clear what the main anime continuation is: DB / DBZ / DBS / BOG-ROF movies / a few tv specials like Bardock and Trunks.
I found many threads about this, but it wasn't my intend to start the old movies/GT-canon debate again, i rather wanted to take a look into the future.

TOEI does own the rights to make the anime, but they don't actually own the intellectual property, right?
If Toriyama sadly enough would leave us tomorrow: i don't think TOEI could do as they like, Shueisha (the manga publisher) would still first have to give their concent to what TOEI proposes or make content themselves that TOEI can execute. Like Disney owns the rights for Star Wars, they own the rights for Dragon Ball.

"The Dragon Ball Room is basically a section for handling all mediation between the author and foreign or domestic licensees and helping with editorial supervision and contracts relating to filming and commercialization of Dragon Ball and other works by Akira Toriyama. We decided to establish a new section for managing the rights of Akira Toriyamas work and other things to keep the franchise going indefinitely." (Iyoku, head of the DB Room)

So Shueishas Dragon Ball Room basically would become what the Lucasfilm Story Group is for Star Wars if Toriyama dies.
Sorry about that. The reason why I place emphasized on separating canon and continuity is precisely on the subject you brought up: when Toriyama passes and Dragon Ball is still producing content in the future, it's status of "canon" (in the context where it's used as a means of "what counts" in a story-related manner) is going to get pretty muddy. Some people (again, speaking in generalization here) might sworn off that Dragon Ball canon ends the moment Toriyama leaves the franchise.

Ultimately, whether or not things are "canon" doesn't really matter in a long run, but it does become a hassle when there's a discussion going on on a product (Dragon Ball Heroes) and the first thing that comes into mind is "is this canon?".

So, to answer your question, I personally think that the canon will largely be just that: any new stories produced by the rightsholder is canon (even in the event Toriyama leaves the franchise in one way or the other). Whether or not they would fit into the main continuity is a different story (and whether or not Dragon Ball would flat out end the moment Toriyama is no longer working on Dragon Ball is also a different story, since the franchise is draining in quite a bit of dough over the years as of late).
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:07 am

Shineman wrote:
ABED wrote:
If we accept the set definition of canon as collection of accepted works officially produced by the right holders, then “non-canon” implies that the right holders have nothing to do with the product at large. Meaning, no rights, no distribution rights, no mention of it in any other works they produced, etc.
Then are you saying canon just means produced by an official source.
Precisely.

Now that I think about it, the only time something is declared "non-canon", where a rights holders (putting this in the context of Dragon Ball) sworn off something is when they removed anything (well, for the most part? I'm sure VegettoEX and anyone knowledgeable in this subject knows the nitty gritty on the explicit details) that traces back to Yamamoto's musical score.
Mister_Popo wrote:I think it's clear what the main anime continuation is: DB / DBZ / DBS / BOG-ROF movies / a few tv specials like Bardock and Trunks.
I found many threads about this, but it wasn't my intend to start the old movies/GT-canon debate again, i rather wanted to take a look into the future.

TOEI does own the rights to make the anime, but they don't actually own the intellectual property, right?
If Toriyama sadly enough would leave us tomorrow: i don't think TOEI could do as they like, Shueisha (the manga publisher) would still first have to give their concent to what TOEI proposes or make content themselves that TOEI can execute. Like Disney owns the rights for Star Wars, they own the rights for Dragon Ball.

"The Dragon Ball Room is basically a section for handling all mediation between the author and foreign or domestic licensees and helping with editorial supervision and contracts relating to filming and commercialization of Dragon Ball and other works by Akira Toriyama. We decided to establish a new section for managing the rights of Akira Toriyamas work and other things to keep the franchise going indefinitely." (Iyoku, head of the DB Room)

So Shueishas Dragon Ball Room basically would become what the Lucasfilm Story Group is for Star Wars if Toriyama dies.
Sorry about that. The reason why I place emphasized on separating canon and continuity is precisely on the subject you brought up: when Toriyama passes and Dragon Ball is still producing content in the future, it's status of "canon" (in the context where it's used as a means of "what counts" in a story-related manner) is going to get pretty muddy. Some people (again, speaking in generalization here) might sworn off that Dragon Ball canon ends the moment Toriyama leaves the franchise.

Ultimately, whether or not things are "canon" doesn't really matter in a long run, but it does become a hassle when there's a discussion going on on a product (Dragon Ball Heroes) and the first thing that comes into mind is "is this canon?".

So, to answer your question, I personally think that the canon will largely be just that: any new stories produced by the rightsholder is canon (even in the event Toriyama leaves the franchise in one way or the other). Whether or not they would fit into the main continuity is a different story (and whether or not Dragon Ball would flat out end the moment Toriyama is no longer working on Dragon Ball is also a different story, since the franchise is draining in quite a bit of dough over the years as of late).

'Canon', if you look it up, is still a word that is used to distinguish something from other material. It used to be a reference point made to material acknowlgedged by the original creator only, but a newer conception seems to look at 'canon' as 'the main continuity'. So by its meaning it's not everything a franchise produces. The word semantically is used to distinguish work from other work. One could argue whether or not its biblical reference is appropiate, as it's not needed or commonly used to sub-value other works from the same author.

All depends on 1. how the popularity of the franchise will involve and 2. what the Dragon Ball Room itself considers as main continuity.

With Star Wars some work is no longer being seen as 'main continuity' by the Lucasfilm Story Group. They seem to give importance to a main timeline that still differs from other possible timelines. Within this concept parallel universes don't interact. They are meant as 'separate' by the author.

People still value authenticity and still like to know what's the main timeframe and what's not. Definitely if Toriyama has died, fans need someone to guide them through so to speak. What's main continuity and what's not seems to be a deal for a lot of the fiction-fandom. When a new anime movie comes out, the first question on peoples mind is 'will it be 'canon'?'. News about the movie is filled with quotes and info of Toriyama. People validate that, otherwise it wouldn't be emphasized as much in the promotional material and newsletters.

If the franchise would get that big, and the spinoffs would sell as good as the stories that belong to the main continuity, they maybe are building a Marvel- or DC-like multiverse. In that case different conituities are acknowledged not only by the authors, they co-exist within the same stories and are affirmed as 'all existing', even perceived from the main continuity. From that moment on the different continuities start to interact and form one continuity that expands to (almost) everything the franchise has to offer. This is not the same however as everything is automatically 'canon' the franchise produces. For the sake of clearity, i hope they somehow keep the main continuity clear from the sidestories. Marvel and DC have grown so big there are infinite possibilities, but sometimes it gets confusing because of the endless different worlds, parallel universes ... I'd appreciate a DB-universe after Toriyama where it's still clear what the main story is about for most audiences.

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:33 pm

If Toriyama didnt write it then I dont care about it.

To me "canon" is a shorter way of saying "Toriyama's work" or "Toriyama wrote it.

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:If Toriyama didnt write it then I dont care about it.

To me "canon" is a shorter way of saying "Toriyama's work" or "Toriyama wrote it.

It's a personal choice that i respect. But why would you deprive yourself of the enjoyment of new DB-content if it's good after Toriyama?
That's basically the same if you were a heavy collector of Spider-Man comics, you'd stop reading and collecting after creator Stan Lee quit.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:48 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:If Toriyama didnt write it then I dont care about it.

To me "canon" is a shorter way of saying "Toriyama's work" or "Toriyama wrote it.

It's a personal choice that i respect. But why would you deprive yourself of the enjoyment of new DB-content if it's good after Toriyama?
That's basically the same if you were a heavy collector of Spider-Man comics, you'd stop reading and collecting after Stan Lee quit.
I mean I would probably watch it eventually but I wouldn't have any kind of "emotional investment" like if it was AT's work if that makes sense. I would go in with very low expectations watching something without Toriyama's influence.

To me, GT and the movies are a great example of how poorly things things can look without Toriyama.

IMO:
DBS=DB=DBZ>>>>>>DBGT

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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:55 pm

How long did Stan Lee actually write Spider-Man stories? DC / Marvel comics are typically written by many people over time. DB is one story with one single writer for the bulk of its existence.
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Re: Canon after Toriyama?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:06 pm

ABED wrote:How long did Stan Lee actually write Spider-Man stories? DC / Marvel comics are typically written by many people over time. DB is one story with one single writer for the bulk of its existence.

Why wouldn't the same concept be possible with DB? Different authors who create new content in the future. Or why would the content automatically be bad if Toriyama is no longer involved? That doesn't make sense IMHO.
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