Canon after Toriyama?

[ABED]

How long did Stan Lee actually write Spider-Man stories? DC / Marvel comics are typically written by many people over time. DB is one story with one single writer for the bulk of its existence.

Why wouldn't the same concept be possible with DB? Different authors who create new content in the future.

Because DB has a singular voice. Superheroes are usually crafted over time and by many different writers. I don't know why you would want it to be like American superhero comics in that way. They have a beginning and an infinite middle. DB had a beginning, middle, and until recently, an end.

[Mister_Popo]

How long did Stan Lee actually write Spider-Man stories? DC / Marvel comics are typically written by many people over time. DB is one story with one single writer for the bulk of its existence.

Why wouldn't the same concept be possible with DB? Different authors who create new content in the future.

Because DB has a singular voice. Superheroes are usually crafted over time and by many different writers. I don't know why you would want it to be like American superhero comics in that way. They have a beginning and an infinite middle. DB had a beginning, middle, and until recently, an end.

Why would you deprive yourself or not enjoy new content because the maker has changed? DC or Marvel are just an example that it is possible. Or even Star Wars if you'd like.
Toriyama will want to finish the stories he wants to tell. But i predict a very low chance Goku or the Dragonworld would disappear if Toriyama has finished his part. Within that reality you can do two things: ignore it and become frustrated because you force yourself not to enjoy it with a reason that's basically an empty box or simply relax and enjoy the new content.

The situation where we are now is a transition. It's no hardcore canon anymore. The original manga and anime were canon in my opinion. Super is filled with things Toriyama hasn't made up, and a lot of people still enjoy it.
Toriyamas soul will life on in the DB-continuity, even long after he's dead. Everything would still be based on his work and characters at the end. Even if there would still be Dragon Ball within a thousand years.

[ABED]

Why would you deprive yourself or not enjoy new content because the maker has changed? DC or Marvel are just an example that it is possible. Or even Star Wars if you'd like.

I have not been over the moon about the new Star Wars films for that reason. I like complete stories and the original trilogy was complete. I'm not inherently against new content but I've grown skeptical after seeing so many revivals being awful shells of their former selves in part because they are overly reliant on nostalgia. At least with Marvel and DC, from damn near the beginning, it was always a medium with an infinite middle and the characters get defined over time. It's not all one big story. DB was a 10 year story that had a satisfying ending.

I'm not going to force myself not to enjoy it, but I can disregard it. There are so many great stories out there, I'm not starving for content.

[Toxin45]

Why would you deprive yourself or not enjoy new content because the maker has changed? DC or Marvel are just an example that it is possible. Or even Star Wars if you'd like.

I have not been over the moon about the new Star Wars films for that reason. I like complete stories and the original trilogy was complete. I'm not inherently against new content but I've grown skeptical after seeing so many revivals being awful shells of their former selves in part because they are overly reliant on nostalgia. At least with Marvel and DC, from damn near the beginning, it was always a medium with an infinite middle and the characters get defined over time. It's not all one big story. DB was a 10 year story that had a satisfying ending.

I'm not going to force myself not to enjoy it, but I can disregard it. There are so many great stories out there, I'm not starving for content.

This again? That's why you don't watch super I see. Your a completionist it seems.

[gokaiblue]

Dragon Ball will continue in some way shape or form even after Toriyama's retirement or death. That's the only thing that is certain.

[Mister_Popo]

I agree Gokus story isn't that of a classic superheroe. He has received such astronomical powerboosts during Super that he's stronger than (most of) the Gods now, and yes there is still angel-level to attain. But somewhere it's got to end. These power-ups can't go on for another ten, twenty years ... like this, without drawning in massive cliches. Star Wars was basically Anakins story according to Lucas, he ended that story. I wished Toriyama gets the opportunity to finish Gokus. After that others could go on and explore the Dragonworld in a different way, telling different stories of different characters within the same world. I'm afraid that's wishful thinking concerning the main casts immense popularity. A lot of money is based on that and i'm afraid we'll gonna see Goku returning indefinitely. This new movie was an excellent opportunity to do a story completely in the past with different characters than the Z-fighters ... They didn't do it. I don't wish the franchise to end after Toriyama sensei. But i'd prefer other stories to be told.

[ABED]

What exactly is the appeal to keep stories going in the same world as DB without being DB?

[gokaiblue]

^
Not sure. Maybe they're just desperate for Dragon Ball to continue?

[Mister_Popo]

What exactly is the appeal to keep stories going in the same world as DB without being DB?

It would have been perfectly feasible (for Toriyama) to make the movie 'Origin of Saiyans' by telling the story that happened in the past without involving the present. It's perfectly possible to expand the same universe or continuity by exploring new characters and and its history / future. One could even fill a brand new series with such all new content. From a creators perspective that could even be challenging and rewarding. The marketeers however probably don't completely share the same opinion.

[ABED]

What exactly is the appeal to keep stories going in the same world as DB without being DB?

It would have been perfectly feasible (for Toriyama) to make the movie 'Origin of Saiyans' by telling the story that happened in the past without involving the present. He could even fill a brand new series with such all new content. The marketeers however probably don't share the same opinion.

I don't think it's mere marketing. That material is mostly interesting in how it affects the present. It's pure backstory. The time to do something like "the origin of the Saiyans" would've been around the Freeza arc. Now just feels superfluous. We've seen how prequels go. Some things don't need to be ellaborated on.

The story and world has been expanded on for years. Why can't things end gracefully? I know the simple answer is "money" but popularity does wane. New things come along all the time and gain popularity.

[Mister_Popo]

What exactly is the appeal to keep stories going in the same world as DB without being DB?

It would have been perfectly feasible (for Toriyama) to make the movie 'Origin of Saiyans' by telling the story that happened in the past without involving the present. He could even fill a brand new series with such all new content. The marketeers however probably don't share the same opinion.

I don't think it's mere marketing. That material is mostly interesting in how it affects the present. It's pure backstory. The time to do something like "the origin of the Saiyans" would've been around the Freeza arc. Now just feels superfluous. We've seen how prequels go. Some things don't need to be ellaborated on.

That's because you look at it like it needs to be perceived that way. Now you are quoting 'we've seen how prequels go', so you are welcoming the marketing aspect now while it fits you, when this was not the intend or reference point of my opinion.

[ABED]

It would have been perfectly feasible (for Toriyama) to make the movie 'Origin of Saiyans' by telling the story that happened in the past without involving the present. He could even fill a brand new series with such all new content. The marketeers however probably don't share the same opinion.

I don't think it's mere marketing. That material is mostly interesting in how it affects the present. It's pure backstory. The time to do something like "the origin of the Saiyans" would've been around the Freeza arc. Now just feels superfluous. We've seen how prequels go. Some things don't need to be ellaborated on.

That's because you look at it like it needs to be perceived that way.

I don't know what that means. Perceived what way?

If they want to do stuff in games that expands the universe, fine, but does it matter that much if it's canon?

This has nothing to do with marketing. Your edit did not make your point any clearer. I don't know what your point of contention is.

[Mister_Popo]

I don't think it's mere marketing. That material is mostly interesting in how it affects the present. It's pure backstory. The time to do something like "the origin of the Saiyans" would've been around the Freeza arc. Now just feels superfluous. We've seen how prequels go. Some things don't need to be ellaborated on.

That's because you look at it like it needs to be perceived that way.

I don't know what that means. Perceived what way?

If they want to do stuff in games that expands the universe, fine, but does it matter that much if it's canon?

This has nothing to do with marketing. Your edit did not make your point any clearer. I don't know what your point of contention is.

The content of 'origin of saiyans' concerning the past does not need to interact directly with the present to make it a good story, although it still happens within the same continuity. That's a matter of perception. I have the impression (could be wrong) you are trying to make your own point objective on subjective grounds. That's what i meant with 'it's almost like it has to be your perception for it to be valable'.
My main point was 'i can live with the fact DB's or Goku's story would end someday, but i wouldn't mind new content to feed new generations, as long it's original, good content, talented new writers could do that as well as Toriyama'. Furthermore i don't content anything. I just wanted to share thoughts and opinions about this.

[ABED]

That's because you look at it like it needs to be perceived that way.

I don't know what that means. Perceived what way?

If they want to do stuff in games that expands the universe, fine, but does it matter that much if it's canon?

This has nothing to do with marketing. Your edit did not make your point any clearer. I don't know what your point of contention is.

The content of 'origin of saiyans' concerning the past does not need to interact directly with the present to make it a good story, although it still happens within the same continuity. That's a matter of perception. I have the impression (could be wrong) you are trying to make your own point objective on subjective grounds. That's what i meant with 'it's almost like it has to be your perception for it to be valable'.
My main point was 'i can live with the fact DB's or Goku's story would end someday, but i wouldn't mind new content to feed new generations, as long it's original, good content, talented new writers could do that as well as Toriyama'. Furthermore i don't content anything. I just wanted to share thoughts and opinions about this.

It could be good, but playing the odds, it won't be. Most prequels feel like the writers tick boxes on a list. Indiana Jones explained all of Indiana's most notable traits in the first few minutes of The Last Crusade and did so more effectively than all three Star Wars prequels combined. And what about the Saiyans' origins need to be expanded on?

The new generation can go back to the original stories. Good stories pick up new readers all the time. DB is a classic. There is more than abundant canon material for new and old fans to revisit. There's no shortage of talented writers out there, but Toriyama has a voice that even Toei has a hard time imitating.

[Gligarman]

As far as I'm concerned if we're comparing this to Star Wars then I'd say most of the canon is whatever you want it to be. I do feel there are certain things you can't argue such as almost everything from the original manga. But there are so many options now that it's pretty much down to preference at this point. For example, I disregard most of the filler in the anime but I also consider Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman a must read since Jaco's origin was never animated. I also consider the half hour special, Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return, to be canon over the first arc of Dragon Ball Super.

[nato25]

I take whatever fits my preferred version of the story as canon, in addition to everything that is already canon. This means making choices sometimes, eg taking the bardock special as canon over minus.

[ABED]

Opinion has no bearing on what is or isn't canon.

[Desassina]

... but apparently, canon is a weapon against people's opinions. It seems very clear to me. It even has a dictionary definition:

[Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]
a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b : the authentic works of a writer (the Chaucer canon)
c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works (the canon of great literature)

Canon is equal to every work that is related to, accepted, and part of an intellectual property. The latter belongs to the author and the official entries under its name may not. He's only credited as the original series' creator in most TOEI studios' productions. He has contributed directly to Battle of Gods, Resurrection of F and DBS through either Toyotaro or TOEI studios, and they were stated to continue his work. Continuity does not pertain to canon, but it's only another word for acceptance in this context, because Dragon Ball GT continues the Dragon Ball Z adaptation as a "side story". It has strong implications when Toriyama's involvement in Dragon Ball Online didn't make it a follow up to the series. A succeeding artist is not enough, because Dragon Ball Heroes is not canon, and it was by Toyotaro. From here on out and in the future, Dragon Ball may be continued with official entries under its rights holders, as a trademark and not the intellectual property.

[Cetra]

"Intellectual property" is not just from the original creator of something. That would mean everything that is not made by him is the intellectual property of nobody which makes no sense. Also there is not just intellectual property but also legal property. I repeat myself: Imagine an original creator completely gives away his/her franchise. Now if some fan of that person would think same creator still would be the only one to declare something canonical - that mere thought alone is absolute madness. On the contrary. That creator would lose every right to say anything. It baffles me how this is always ignored. I invent something, I sell it completely and I still think I have the absolute say in this? FORGET it. Investing money to get rights for a brand cannot just contribute to making money by making more stuff, depending on the situation of course there can be decisive rights involved.

And in case of Dragon Ball, Shueisha alone can also do whatever they want.

[Grimlock]

It has strong implications when Toriyama's involvement in Dragon Ball Online didn't make it a follow up to the series.

Huh? What do you mean?