Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by DB_Fan1991 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:01 am

I don't appreciate being attacked for what I say. What I say is this, don't like the dub? Don't watch it plain as day. I myself like both versions. In Japanese I like the original run (DB-DBGT) and in English I prefer everything from Kai onwards.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by MarCas92 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:00 am

DB_Fan1991 wrote:I What I say is this, don't like the dub? Don't watch it plain as day.
That argument never has and never will hold any water. Art matters. Dubs matter. We have to expect more of these companies who can(and have) deliver a better product if we believe its possible as fans. Although, I don't personally care how popular DB gets, it is always important to push content creators to deliver quality material regardless of the circumstances. It isn't about whether or not your watching, it's about what we deserve as fans. Regardless of whether we like the dub or not.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:36 am

MarCas92 wrote:That argument never has and never will hold any water. Art matters. Dubs matter. We have to expect more of these companies who can(and have) deliver a better product if we believe its possible as fans. Although, I don't personally care how popular DB gets, it is always important to push content creators to deliver quality material regardless of the circumstances. It isn't about whether or not your watching, it's about what we deserve as fans. Regardless of whether we like the dub or not.
Your premise is flawed, on account of the assumption that the dub is objectively not as good as the Original version, if not better. I, and a lot of dub fans, DO expect a lot. It's just that our "a lot" is different from what yours is. WE got EXACTLY what we wanted from this dub :D !

It is my opinion that you, and some of the others, have different opinions on what a "good" dub should be. Hence, why our opinions are so different.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:46 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Zephyr wrote:How was that not already clear? He was ugly because he was falling apart. He was clearly obviously falling apart, as indicated by half of his body being a melted purple mess. His ugliness and his decomposition are very clearly inextricably tied. So if something caused one, it naturally caused the other.
Well, I didn't pick up on that the first time, and I don't think I would've picked up on it with Crunchyroll's subs; even if I had watched it multiple times. Therefore, I appreciate the FUNi dub helping me out.
Fionordequester wrote:
ABED wrote:So the writing is better because it treats the audience as though they are incapable of drawing an obvious conclusion? Look, I've missed things that should be obvious, but I prefer writers to not treat me like an idiot and incapable of getting something at some point without being spoonfed.
If by "audience that is incapable of drawing an obvious conclusion", you mean me...then yes. I enjoyed that approach more, at least in Episode 66.

Unfortunately for you, there's probably a lot of people like me that you're sharing the world with. People that are part of the audience FUNimation has to cater to.
Sorry for such a belated response. I was at work. :P

But something grabbed me in one of your earlier posts that I neglected to respond to, relevant pieces bolded for emphasis:
Fionordequester wrote:I hated Episode 66 when it first came onto Crunchyroll. It seemed like an utter disaster; a long stream of retcons and deux ex machinas, coming from writers desperately trying to wrap up the arc after spending too much time dawdling in the previous episodes. And I had no idea how Gowasu's monologue fit into the larger picture. At the time, it seemed like a random cutaway from the action I actually wanted to watch (Vegetto vs. Zamasu).

But in FUNi's dub, they were quite a bit more detailed in how they explored the themes going on in that episode. Detailed enough that I went "Ohhhhhh...so THAT'S what the point of those scenes were!". It was explaining just what was going on with Zamasu's body; and why it was possible for Trunks to defeat him, despite the overwhelming power gap.

Zamasu's body wasn't JUST becoming ugly; it was falling apart. It wasn't that Trunk's Spirit Sword was somehow way stronger than the Final Kamehameha (as it seemed when I watched it on Crunchyroll). It was that Merged Zamasu's body was becoming more and more fragile as the battle was raging on (hence Kaioshin's comment about "his body losing it's form"). And due to that, piercing attacks absolutely wrecked Zamasu's body in a way that most conventional attacks didn't (hence why the episode spent so much time lingering on when Vegetto stabbed Merged Zamasu with his Energy Sword; it was foreshadowing).
From the way you're describing things here, and from my own experience with the general atmosphere of the Episode Discussion Threads, it sounds like the first time around you were excessively caught up thinking about in-universe minutia and consistency, and logical power scaling, rather than trying to pick up on any thematic underpinning. From the sound of it, you weren't terribly happy in these departments.

Your second time around viewing them, you already knew what to expect in these departments, so they would have had less reason to take you out of the moment. And as such, I think it makes plenty of sense that you would've noticed things that you hadn't the first time around.

I'm not calling you a liar or suggesting that you don't know yourself or anything like that, but I dunno, I wouldn't sell yourself so short. I don't think you needed things spelled out for you like that at all. From what you've said about the matter, I think you just needed to go into it with a different frame of reference, is all. That the dub happened to over-explain things for your second go around is more coincidence, I think.
gokaiblue wrote:There's disagreeing with someone's opinion, and there's 10:30pm diatribes like this. Not even bothering to go point by point this time if you're going to insult my tastes in entertainment.
Not to speak for the guy, but did you not read this part of his post?
Kunzait_83 wrote:I don't mean to be the "taste police" here, and I sincerely apologize if any of what I said about your list of favorite media just now comes across that way in the slightest: I'm just illustrating a larger, community-wide point here that I think has been long, LONG lurking behind the heart of a LOT of the disagreements we've been having over the years now.
Knowing the guy as I do, I really doubt he intended to insult you; he's encouraging you to branch out more, and is suggesting that your opinion on the quality of the dub actors' performance might change as you do so.

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:33 am

Toriyama's characters and universe are ALREADY insane and whacked out deranged ALREADY. They DON'T NEED further "help" from the acting (or once again, the music) to make them even LESS dimensional and MORE on-the-nose than they already are. The Japanese anime was/is smart enough to take a crazy fantasy world (that's already enticing to kids on its face) and lend it a sense of genuine dramatic gravitas that can even keep adults engaged as well.
Kunzait, I believe I understand your point, but you can't divorce the performance from the character. If the character is acting 'insane and whacked out', then the performances should reflect that. If the character is acting subtle, so then should the performance. I think we're in at least fundamental agreement.
Your second time around viewing them, you already knew what to expect in these departments, so they would have had less reason to take you out of the moment. And as such, I think it makes plenty of sense that you would've noticed things that you hadn't the first time around.
Agreed. And it's not as though everyone is expected to get everything both surface level or subtle their first time through.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by gokaiblue » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:09 am

Zephyr wrote:
Not to speak for the guy, but did you not read this part of his post?
Kunzait_83 wrote:I don't mean to be the "taste police" here, and I sincerely apologize if any of what I said about your list of favorite media just now comes across that way in the slightest: I'm just illustrating a larger, community-wide point here that I think has been long, LONG lurking behind the heart of a LOT of the disagreements we've been having over the years now.
Knowing the guy as I do, I really doubt he intended to insult you; he's encouraging you to branch out more, and is suggesting that your opinion on the quality of the dub actors' performance might change as you do so.
Perhaps, but it still feels like an unnecessary personal attack (kinda like callong the actors "hacks" would be one for the actors).


For the record, my tastes aren't as limited as they seem. :wink:
Last edited by gokaiblue on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by gokaiblue » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:20 am

MarCas92 wrote:
DB_Fan1991 wrote:I What I say is this, don't like the dub? Don't watch it plain as day.
That argument never has and never will hold any water. Art matters. Dubs matter. We have to expect more of these companies who can(and have) deliver a better product if we believe its possible as fans. Although, I don't personally care how popular DB gets, it is always important to push content creators to deliver quality material regardless of the circumstances. It isn't about whether or not your watching, it's about what we deserve as fans. Regardless of whether we like the dub or not.

While I see your point, simply complaining won't do. Don't like the dub? Don't buy it on DVD or BluRay and don't watch it. You can still criticize it, yes, but criticize the product and the performances given by the actors, not necessarily them as a whole. Likewise, it's not best to attack those or make generalizations about those who do like the dub.

In regards to what we "deserve" as fans, I think we got it. We deserve a cast and crew who are passionate about the series and want to present it as accurately as possible while still having a little fun. Sure, I wish they wouldn't change the script because they feel they need to keepnit fresh for those who already saw it, but despite the changes, I think they're giving us a quality dub. If you don't, that's fine.
Last edited by gokaiblue on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:24 am

gokaiblue wrote:With all due respect, I would call paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph about it while also calling the actors "hacks" going crazy over the dub.
gokaiblue wrote:There's disagreeing with someone's opinion, and there's 10:30pm diatribes like this.
The underlying complaint in each of your responses seems to be, "Someone wrote a lot of stuff."

Kanzenshuu encourages long-form discussion backed with context. Our community guidelines explicitly outline that we are about: "facts, striving for accuracy, history, documentation, courtesy, open-mindedness and challenging conversations". We wouldn't still be here 20 years later propped up by a pile of, "Yeah that was fine" and "No I didn't like that" contributions.

Contrary to what you may think, you have been extended each and every one of these courtesies, even in responses you don't like. If you're not up to said challenge, perhaps this conversation isn't for you.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by gokaiblue » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 am

VegettoEX wrote:
gokaiblue wrote:With all due respect, I would call paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph about it while also calling the actors "hacks" going crazy over the dub.
gokaiblue wrote:There's disagreeing with someone's opinion, and there's 10:30pm diatribes like this.
The underlying complaint in each of your responses seems to be, "Someone wrote a lot of stuff."

Kanzenshuu encourages long-form discussion backed with context. Our community guidelines explicitly outline that we are about: "facts, striving for accuracy, history, documentation, courtesy, open-mindedness and challenging conversations". We wouldn't still be here 20 years later propped up by a pile of, "Yeah that was fine" and "No I didn't like that" contributions.

Contrary to what you may think, you have been extended each and every one of these courtesies, even in responses you don't like. If you're not up to said challenge, perhaps this conversation isn't for you.
Long posts are fine. That wasn't the issue. It was unnecessary length over the most minor of changes (still don't know how lines like "Let's go see Yamcha" or "I forgot my tractor" really affect your and/or Kanzenshuu's work) and an unwillingness to let some things go on both sides admittedly.

The whole thing started when the actors were called "hacks," which can be seen as a personal attack on them as actors (being something of an actor myself, I would take being called a "hack" personally). Even if those who threw this assertion around didn't mean for it to be read as one, those who felt it eas uncalled for (such as myself) continued to harp on them about it. This fight went on and on, and each criticism thrown towards the dub was mixed in with that.


There was also an issue of users perhaps hearing things slightly differently, and this went over and over until it escalated to the point of people's tastes in entertainment being questioned and challenged.

That's my problem. It's not the post length but the escalating tensions throughout this thread. I could be wrong in my assessment of the situation, but that's what I felt as things went on, causing me to claim people were going "crazy" over what I feel is a quality dub, and the criticsims to me seemed either rather minor or baseless. I was literally not hearing what they were hearing at times.

Long discussions on topics like this are perfectly fine, but when things get crazy, sometimes you need to step back and realize you're talking about a Japanese cartoon, which is not something to get too riled up about.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:43 am

I don't particularly care if you took it personally. Or even if Schemmel and Sabat would take it personally. Mature adults should not get carried away because somebody insulted somebody else's work.

I realize that we are in the Age of Trump, but people really don't need you to be thin-skinned for them. If your chief problem with my posts isn't the argument itself, but rather the language I use, then the nicest thing I can say is get over it. I don't really care if you were offended by my criticism of the VA's or not, but the fact that this has gone on so long is definitely telling.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:49 am

gokaiblue wrote:still don't know how lines like "Let's go see Yamcha" or "I forgot my tractor" really affect your and/or Kanzenshuu's work
Those specific lines aren't a major problem, it's what those lines represent; they're symbolic of the problems in the Funi dub, so they're pointed to as a good example of what people have a problem with.
gokaiblue wrote:The whole thing started when the actors were called "hacks," which can be seen as a personal attack on them as actors (being something of an actor myself, I would take being called a "hack" personally). Even if those who threw this assertion around didn't mean for it to be read as one, those who felt it eas uncalled for (such as myself) continued to harp on them about it. This fight went on and on, and each criticism thrown towards the dub was mixed in with that.
On one hand, I think it's super-harsh and uncalled for to call the actors hacks, but using "but the other guys said this mean thing" as fuel for your side of an argument doesn't help you at all in a discussion like this.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:56 am

Well, I just saw the “I forgot my tractor” clip, and...I don’t get it. Why exactly is that line such a big deal? If it was said during a serious moment, it would definitely be out of place, but it was said during a completely goofy scene that’s part of a filler episode. Seriously, I would think that Nappa’s “I hate the media” line in Kai would be much more controversial.

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:06 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Well, I just saw the “I forgot my tractor” clip, and...I don’t get it. Why exactly is that line such a big deal? If it was said during a serious moment, it would definitely be out of place, but it was said during a completely goofy scene that’s part of a filler episode. Seriously, I would think that Nappa’s “I hate the media” line in Kai would be much more controversial.
As Robo4900 just explained, they are easy-to-remember examples that are symbolic of the larger, systemic problem with the way FUNimation approaches these dubs.

See indeed: the consistent references to Nappa's "I hate the media!" in the All Systems Goku podcast, multiple arcs after said line was used (which, yes, was a line that I called out in my review at the time).
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:12 pm

The I forgot my tractor line, at least to me, was one of the times a little piece of added dialogue worked wonderfully. The whole scene was goofy as it was, and that to me was the icing on the cake.

The let's go see Yamcha line though was just dumb if you ask me.

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:14 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Well, I just saw the “I forgot my tractor” clip, and...I don’t get it. Why exactly is that line such a big deal? If it was said during a serious moment, it would definitely be out of place, but it was said during a completely goofy scene that’s part of a filler episode. Seriously, I would think that Nappa’s “I hate the media” line in Kai would be much more controversial.
As Robo4900 just explained, they are easy-to-remember examples that are symbolic of the larger, systemic problem with the way FUNimation approaches these dubs.

See indeed: the consistent references to Nappa's "I hate the media!" in the All Systems Goku podcast, multiple arcs after said line was used (which, yes, was a line that I called out in my review at the time).
But why is the “I forgot my tractor” line symbolic of anything? Contrary to what people here have assumed, I couldn’t care less about the Funimation dub, the same way that I don’t at all dislike the Japanese version (seriously, why did people assume that to begin with?), but I would think that if you want to cite problematic lines of dialogue in the dub, there should be much better examples than that. It’s like citing some random, jokey line of dialogue in a Marvel movie, and then claiming that one joke is symbolic of some larger problem in the MCU. I just don’t get it.

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:16 pm

DB_Fan1991 wrote:I don't appreciate being attacked for what I say. What I say is this, don't like the dub? Don't watch it plain as day. I myself like both versions. In Japanese I like the original run (DB-DBGT) and in English I prefer everything from Kai onwards.
This. I honestly do not understand people who don't like the dub (which is fine) but still CONSTANTLY complain about it and it's fan base. Sub purists will hate the dub no matter what it does, so why not just watch it?

Sub fans should stay in their lane and dub fans should stay in theirs. And if you like both, that's even better. I don't see the use in belittling people with a thinly veiled sense of arrogance because of a cartoon.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:17 pm

WittyUsername wrote:But why is the “I forgot my tractor” line symbolic of anything? Contrary to what people here have assumed, I couldn’t care less about the Funimation dub, the same way that I don’t at all dislike the Japanese version (seriously, why did people assume that to begin with?), but I would think that if you want to cite problematic lines of dialogue in the dub, there should be much better examples than that. It’s like citing some random, jokey line of dialogue in a Marvel movie, and then claiming that one joke is symbolic of some larger problem in the MCU. I just don’t get it.
How many lines would it take? From how many different types of scenes, from how many different characters? At some point, you end up just listing the entire script.
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By your own definition, you shouldn't even be here and you aren't welcome here.

This is false. We welcome your thoughts. You may be challenged along the way, but we welcome your thoughts and we're glad to have you here.
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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:18 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:But why is the “I forgot my tractor” line symbolic of anything? Contrary to what people here have assumed, I couldn’t care less about the Funimation dub, the same way that I don’t at all dislike the Japanese version (seriously, why did people assume that to begin with?), but I would think that if you want to cite problematic lines of dialogue in the dub, there should be much better examples than that. It’s like citing some random, jokey line of dialogue in a Marvel movie, and then claiming that one joke is symbolic of some larger problem in the MCU. I just don’t get it.
How many lines would it take? From how many different types of scenes, from how many different characters? At some point, you end up just listing the entire script.
Comparing a few added lines from a very accurate dub overall to the 1999 dub is a little much don't you think?

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:22 pm

VegettoEX wrote: By your own definition, you shouldn't even be here and you aren't welcome here.

This is false. We welcome your thoughts. You may be challenged along the way, but we welcome your thoughts and we're glad to have you here.
What I meant is, sub fans shouldn't watch the dub just to say "this dub is trash it's not exactly like my precious Japanese." Same as dub fans shouldn't watch the sub and say "Goku sounds like a squeaky grandma wtf is this shit." Both statements are silly. Just watch the version you enjoy and leave it at that.

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Re: Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:But why is the “I forgot my tractor” line symbolic of anything? Contrary to what people here have assumed, I couldn’t care less about the Funimation dub, the same way that I don’t at all dislike the Japanese version (seriously, why did people assume that to begin with?), but I would think that if you want to cite problematic lines of dialogue in the dub, there should be much better examples than that. It’s like citing some random, jokey line of dialogue in a Marvel movie, and then claiming that one joke is symbolic of some larger problem in the MCU. I just don’t get it.
How many lines would it take? From how many different types of scenes, from how many different characters? At some point, you end up just listing the entire script.
With respect, I don’t think comparisons to the dub of the Bardock special are warranted. That dub was so disrespectful to the Japanese version that it changed a number of plot points, and did a complete overhaul of Bardock’s character. “I forgot my tractor” doesn’t in anyway alter the story, nor does it interfere with the mood of the scene. There’s also nothing that could be considered cringe worthy about it, at least in my opinion. It’s not referencing a meme, it’s not an out of place pop culture reference and it doesn’t strike me as being out of character for Goku.

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