Who is the best Dad in Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

Yes, yet the bond they got from it is more than simple teacher-pupil relationship

No more than the relationship between Muten Roshi and Goku.

Muten Roshi was never shown to be that close or even present in Goku's life the way Piccolo is with Gohan. Gokus studied under Muten Roshi for 3 month, then only met with him once every couple of years.

This isn't about how much time they've spent together. The nature of both relationships is the same. Both go beyond mere student-pupil relationship.

[Michsi]

No more than the relationship between Muten Roshi and Goku.

Muten Roshi was never shown to be that close or even present in Goku's life the way Piccolo is with Gohan. Gokus studied under Muten Roshi for 3 month, then only met with him once every couple of years.

This isn't about how much time they've spent together. The nature of both relationships is the same. Both go beyond mere student-pupil relationship.

It is partly about how much time they spend together. Muten Roshi was never shown to be that involved with Goku's life outside of training whereas Piccolo is with Gohan. If anything, I'd say Muten Roshi and Krillin are way closer as he practically lived with him.

[ABED]

It's not because both times it was about training for an impending threat. That doesn't make Piccolo fatherly. At least Goku and Muten Roshi meet each other recreationally, even if only during tournaments. Muten Roshi and Goku have great affection for each other. Why does your argument constantly boil down to someone doing something MORE than someone else? Yes, Kuririn and Muten Roshi are closer. That doesn't take anything away from Goku and Roshi's relationship.

What moments lead anyone to believe Piccolo is MORE of a father to Gohan than Goku?

[Michsi]

You're the one that brought Muten Roshi as comparison. As important as Muten Roshi is to Goku, the story made more efforts to show a stronger emotional connection between Piccolo and Gohan . Also, I don't think Piccolo is a better father to Gohan than Goku, but I do think they are closer to the Goku/ Gohan relationship than Goku/MutenRoshi. Gohan himself said he loves Piccolo about as much as his father and this was just after the saiyan saga. In the Cell arc, when Goku tells Gohan to imagine Cell trying to kill someone he cares about he mentiones himself or Piccolo, effectively putting Piccolo on the same level of importance as himself.

I do have examples that could be used for arguing that Piccolo is a better parental figure, but as I said, I'm not actually taking any sides here.

[ABED]

You're the one that brought Muten Roshi as comparison. As important as Muten Roshi is to Goku, the story made more efforts to show a stronger emotional connection between Piccolo and Gohan . Also, I don't think Piccolo is a better father to Gohan than Goku, but I do think they are closer to the Goku/ Gohan relationship than Goku/MutenRoshi. Gohan himself said he loves Piccolo about as much as his father and this was just after the saiyan saga. In the Cell arc, when Goku tells Gohan to imagine Cell trying to kill someone he cares about he mentiones himself or Piccolo, effectively putting Piccolo on the same level of importance as himself.

I do have examples that could be used for arguing that Piccolo is a better parental figure, but as I said, I'm not actually taking any sides here.

I really don't think that's the case at all. Goku is shown to have a profound and deep connection with Roshi, so much that he senses the death of his own master. This was prior to Goku mastering the ability to control and sense ki. It was done for dramatic emphasis in order to show the connection between Goku and his master. Goku spends a very similar amount of time with Kuririn as he does Muten Roshi and yet no one finds the idea that they are best friends to be ridiculous. I don't recall Gohan saying he loves Piccolo AS MUCH as his father, regardless, what I see demonstrated is a very similar bond between the two pairings, but I would still say Muten Roshi is still more fatherly. Piccolo mostly taught Gohan how to fight. Giving his life to save Gohan was an amazing moment, but not something Muten Roshi wouldn't do. And he's taught Goku lessons that extend beyond fighting.

It's quite the leap to say that telling Gohan to imagine Cell killing someone he cares about means he's putting himself on the same level of importance.

Point being, it's very possible to have a profound bond between master and pupil without it being akin to a parent/child relationship.

What examples show Piccolo is a better parent? Is it the single line during the Cell Games that everyone goes on and on about?

[Michsi]

I really don't think that's the case at all. Goku is shown to have a profound and deep connection with Roshi, so much that he senses the death of his own master. Goku spends a very similar amount of time with Kuririn as he does Muten Roshi and yet no one finds the idea that they are best friends to be ridiculous.

You'd be surprised, but some really do.

It's quite the leap to say that telling Gohan to imagine Cell killing someone he cares about means he's putting himself on the same level of importance. It's a HUGE leap. It's a Titanic size leap.

It really isn't, but I can't force you to see it my way.

Point is, the story provides a lot more scenes for Gohan and Piccolo. Not to mention that we know Gohan and Piccolo see each other regularly during the 7 year gap whereas Goku didn't even go to tell Muten Roshi he became a father.

What examples show Piccolo is a better parent?

I'll give just one : Piccolo loosing his mind when Gohan fights Cell. He is so distraught that he can't even sense that Gohan was alive after Cell kicks him through a cliff and sensing ki should be one of his specialties. Being that worried to the point of frenzy is normal parental behavior, whereas looking on with self-assured glee isn't.

[ABED]

the story provides a lot more scenes for Gohan and Piccolo. Not to mention that we know Gohan and Piccolo see each other regularly during the 7 year gap whereas Goku didn't even go to tell Muten Roshi he became a father.

That doesn't make Piccolo a father. They are friends. Goku doesn't see Kuririn that much and yet Kuririn's death sets him off twice. It's possible to have a profound bond without spending much time together.

I'll give just one : Piccolo loosing his mind when Gohan fights Cell. He is so distraught that he can't even sense that Gohan was alive after Cell kicks him through a cliff and sensing ki should be one of his specialties. Being that worried to the point of frenzy is normal parental behavior, whereas looking on with self-assured glee isn't.

In this example, Goku knows Gohan better than Piccolo. Being worried about someone you care about isn't limited to parental behavior. Goku has shown concern for Gohan when he feels that concern is warranted. Goku is self assured because he knows Gohan's strength. Goku has given his life to protect Gohan as well. And let's not forget that he was going to leave the healing tank before he was fully healed to save Gohan from Freeza. The only reason he doesn't is because he senses Piccolo. Everything Piccolo has done, so has Goku. Goku never abandoned Gohan before he knew Gohan had the ability to take care of himself.

[Michsi]

the story provides a lot more scenes for Gohan and Piccolo. Not to mention that we know Gohan and Piccolo see each other regularly during the 7 year gap whereas Goku didn't even go to tell Muten Roshi he became a father.

That doesn't make Piccolo a father. They are friends. Goku doesn't see Kuririn that much and yet Kuririn's death sets him off twice. It's possible to have a profound bond without spending much time together.

Well Piccolo and Gohan have both. Also, Piccolo being considered a father figure has been mentioned in interviews btw.

What's also been mentioned is that Goku has no parental insticts, but who cares what the author thinks, right?

I think you have very odd view of what constitutes being a father. Even in this example, Goku knows Gohan better than Piccolo. Being worried about someone you care about isn't limited to parental behavior. Goku is self assured because he knows Gohan's strength. Goku has given his life to protect Gohan as well. Everything Piccolo has done, so has Goku. Goku never abandoned Gohan before he knew Gohan had the ability to take care of himself.

Yeah, being scared and worried over seeing your kid in a dangerous situation is really odd.....

[ABED]

Well Piccolo and Gohan have both. Also, Piccolo being considered a father figure has been mentioned in interviews btw.

What's also been mentioned is that Goku has no parental insticts, but who cares what the author thinks, right?

It's interesting trivia, but that's not the story, that's someone else's analysis and opinion. Narratives are about showing, not telling. Goku is shown to be protective of Gohan.

Yeah, being scared and worried over seeing your kid in a dangerous situation is really odd.....

Which Goku has been shown to do. Go back and look at the post because I gave another example. Everything Piccolo has been shown to do that you use as proof of Piccolo being a better father, Goku has also done. Goku does show concern when he believes there is reason to worry.

And can we please stop with the sarcasm? If all your responses end in a sarcastic comment, it seems like you aren't actually interested in discussing this.

[Michsi]

It's interesting trivia, but that's not the story, that's someone else's analysis and opinion. Narratives are about showing, not telling. Goku is shown to be protective of Gohan.

The interviewer is the one that brings that, meaning others have more than picked up on this on their own. The story shows it very well IMO. Yes, Goku is protective, but that's like the minimum requirement for a parent.
Others have picked up on this side withouth needing those interviews which again shows the story tells it just fine. The interview was just to show that there was legitimate intent behing portraying Goku like this.

Which Goku has been shown to do. Go back and look at the post because I gave another example. Everything Piccolo has been shown to do that you use as proof of Piccolo being a better father, Goku has also done. Goku does show concern when he believes there is reason to worry.

And can we please stop with the sarcasm? If all your responses end in a sarcastic comment, it seems like you aren't actually interested in discussing this.

I don't use it except for extreme cases like my how my view of fatherhood is odd here because I think being scared witless and showing strong emotions over your child being put in danger is natural and actually a far more normal parental behavior.

Goku starts to worry after a wake-up call which he shouldn't have needed in the first place. He knows Gohan's power better, nothing else. I'm not going to go over this example again. I've already said all there is to say about this scene.

[ABED]

The interviewer is the one that brings that, meaning others have more than picked up on this on their own. The story shows it very well IMO. Yes, Goku is protective, but that's like the minimum requirement for a parent.

That's a HUGE requirement for a parent. Half of parenting is keeping the damn kid alive. Goku has given his life for Gohan.

I don't use it except for extreme cases like my how my view of fatherhood is odd here because I think being scared witless and showing strong emotions over your child being put in danger is natural and actually a far more normal parental behavior.

And I would argue that dropping an innocent child on an uninhabited island unprepared is a no-no when it comes to parenting. Gohan is constantly in danger. Facing Cell was nothing new and somehow Goku's supposed to lose his mind over a fairly standard attack?

You're cherry picking. That's not the norm for Goku. It was extreme but he given what he saw in the RST, he was justified in believing Gohan had it handled and a simple smack into the . It's an unfair comparison because you aren't comparing it to Piccolo at his worst. He left Gohan to survive in the middle of nowhere when he was at his most vulnerable. Again and again you disregard contrary evidence. Have you once acknowledge that Goku knows Gohan doesn't want to fight? No because it's a lot more convenient to point out Piccolo's line and disregard something that undercuts your argument entirely. So far the only example you gave is a single line of dialog.

And how is it that I've given examples that SHOW Goku being protective of his son, but you give an example of Piccolo TELLING us he's concerned and you think that is sufficient proof for your case?

[PsionicWarrior]

ABED, we're not saying Piccolo is an ideal father or more fatherly than Goku (if you really want to compare with IRL they're both terrible lol), we're saying Piccolo has developed a bond with Gohan that makes him his spiritual father of some sort lol
I don't find the bond between Goku and Roshi to be of same nature lol

Both Goku and Piccolo have given their life for Gohan.

Fixed lol

[Michsi]

And I would argue that dropping an innocent child on an uninhabited island unprepared is a no-no when it comes to parenting.?

This right here is the reason why I even touch this damn "fan debate"in the first place. No one with a ounce of common sense would think that Piccolo in the beginning was a decent adult, never-mind a good parental figure, but the whole point of is that he grows out of this. Leaving that very important context of Piccolo not yet having come to care about Gohan and only saw him as a weapon to use against the saiyans, to use as comparison to Goku, now that is cherry-picking.

Have you once acknowledge that Goku knows Gohan doesn't want to fight?

Does he? Because all I remember is that he says he can then later concentrate on becoming a scholar. If that line is supposed to be interpreted as Goku already knowing that Gohan doesn't love fighting the way he does, the very reason he gives Cell a senzu, then that makes him even worse. So I wouldn't go use that as a counter-example. it really doesn't help his case.

. That's not the norm for Goku.

He does this again when he leaves the fate of the earth in the hands of Goten and Trunks, and before someone inevitably says "he didn't have the energy to fight" Piccolo outright tells him "why didn't you at least try" and he comes clean as says he thinks the kids should be the ones to defeat because they are the future. Just like with Gohan, he was wrong.

Add to this the fact that he makes no effort to connect with Goten and his only reaction to finding out that he has another kid is mild surprise. And lets not forget when he breaks the potara because he wants a good fight even though the life of his family and friends depend on him winning.

And since you seem to think me only giving one example is cherry-picking instead of just me limiting the discussion to one example, I'll give one more. When Piccolo finds out Gohan supposedly died, he falls to his knees and starts shaking, Goku practically mentions Vegeta's and Gohan;s death in the same breath. I noticed that lackluster reaction when I first read the manga and then years later Toriyama comes and says that Goku doesn't really view Gohan and Chichi any differently than the rest of his friends.

Again, I don't think Goku or Piccolo are better or worse than the other, just that a case can be made for both. Either way, neither of them belongs in the "best dad" thread.

[ABED]

Leaving that very important context of Piccolo not yet having come to care about Gohan and only saw him as a weapon to use against the saiyans, to use as comparison to Goku, now that is cherry-picking.

You can act all exasperated, but I never dropped context or cherry picked. I know he grows, but this counts just as much as the rest of Goku's actions count for him, not just one damn moment. You have to include the totality.

Does he? Because all I remember is that he says he can then later concentrate on becoming a scholar. If that line is supposed to be interpreted as Goku already knowing that Gohan doesn't love fighting the way he does, the very reason he gives Cell a senzu, then that makes him even worse. So I wouldn't go use that as a counter-example. it really doesn't help his case.

Yes. That's what that means. And it doesn't matter whether Gohan wants to fight. Why in the hell would it matter if Gohan WANTS to fight. Gohan is the only one that can stop him. You constantly act as though Goku made Gohan fight Cell and that is completely incorrect. Every time this discussion happens, without fail, people forget that Gohan was the only who could defeat Cell. What he wants in that moment is irrelevant to the discussion. If he doesn't stop Cell, whatever else he wants to do is meaningless by comparison.

Kuririn's near death at the hands of Freeza isn't what got Goku to nearly get out of the healing tank before he was ready, it was Gohan. Actions speak louder than words.

Again, I don't think Goku or Piccolo are better or worse than the other, just that a case can be made for both. Either way, neither of them belongs in the "best dad" thread.

You coulda fooled me given how vociferously you've defended Piccolo.

[PsionicWarrior]

About Goku giving a senzu to Cell you need to have Saiyajin blood to understand lol

[Michsi]

Leaving that very important context of Piccolo not yet having come to care about Gohan and only saw him as a weapon to use against the saiyans, to use as comparison to Goku, now that is cherry-picking.

You can act all exasperated, but I never dropped context or cherry picked. I know he grows, but this counts just as much as the rest of Goku's actions count for him, not just one damn moment. You have to include the totality.

A bit of rhetoric does not mean exasperation and I know full well I can't change your mind on this. Debates are almost always more for onlookers than the debaters themselves so while I don't intend to convert the "opponent" I do want any eventual thrid party to look what arguments are brought up and how they are refuted.

To compare Piccolo from when he was a bad guy to Goku, who has not gone through any development like that, is fallacious. It's like saying "well at least he is better than the devil". Piccolo isn't Gohan's dad, which makes his attachment and level of dedication to Gohan all the more meaningful. The Cell arc example is relevant because you actually have them side by side to see their reaction to the same thing. If we're going to go through every stage than we can also take into account that Piccolo tried to kill Goku at some point, which is also not something a decent person should do.

Yes. That's what that means. And it doesn't matter whether Gohan wants to fight. Why in the hell would it matter if Gohan WANTS to fight. Gohan is the only one that can stop him. You constantly act as though Goku made Gohan fight Cell and that is completely incorrect. Every time this discussion happens, without fail, people forget that Gohan was the only who could defeat Cell. What he wants in that moment is irrelevant to the discussion. If he doesn't stop Cell, whatever else he wants to do is meaningless by comparison.

Because he shouldn't have planned it like that in the first place. I really have a hard time seeing this your way. It all comes down to Goku's behavior and priorities. If he knows that Gohan doesn't want to fight why does he act so surprised when Piccolo repeats that to him? Why does he send Gohan out there on his own and gives Cell a senzu if he knows his son that he won't enjoy or appreciate the gesture?
Gohan does not get angry the way Goku thought he would , Gohan does not defeat Cell on his own, Goku's plan blows up in his face and he even apologizes to everyone because of it. Someone had to die in order for Gohan to obtain the power he needed. Goku displays a level of unparalleled recklessness and arrogance at assuming Gohan would perform exactly as he would and if he knew his son that well, than he wouldn't look like a deer caught in the head lights later.
The reason he asks for senzsu in order to get out there and help Gohan is because he realizes he's done something wrong. The length some people go to find excuses for him in this scenario, despite the fact that the character himself freaking admits he messed up is astounding to me.

You coulda fooled me given how vociferously you've defended Piccolo.

I do, because the same way the "worst dad" joke with Goku went unchecked and unchallenged,I don't want this argument to spread either. And I mentioned that I don't care for the debate from the very beginning, but I do have a problem with unfair comparisons.

[ABED]

I understand full well I won't be changing your mind, but at least maybe I can get you to look at the totality and not just one moment out of context. Piccolo wasn't a bad guy when he trained Gohan. At worst, he was an anti-hero, but he's mostly a curmudgeon. Lets not forget that's whom Gohan forged his bond with.

And once again, you go on and on and on about Goku's plan and forever refuse to acknowledge that Gohan was the only one with the power to defeat Cell. It's not something Goku planned on. It doesn't matter if Gohan wants to fight. It's a crappy situation, but one that wasn't forced on Gohan by his father. It was forced on him because of his bottomless well of potential. If Gohan doesn't fight, the world ends. It's that simple.

Why does he send Gohan out there on his own

Because he's the only one who can win! Where is the confusion about this coming from?

The writing in this part of the story is so bad. Gohan never had cold feet like this except for the Saiyan arc. He's so out of character at this point. It's all inorganic drama.

I mentioned that I don't care for the debate from the very beginning, but I do have a problem with unfair comparisons.

Then don't debate. You don't have to continue responding. It's just Dragon Ball, so why does it matter if you think I'm making an unfair comparison? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Life goes on. It's just a kid's show.

[Michsi]

I understand full well I won't be changing your mind, but at least maybe I can get you to look at the totality and not just one moment out of context. Piccolo wasn't a bad guy when he trained Gohan. At worst, he was an anti-hero, but he's mostly a curmudgeon. Lets not forget that's whom Gohan forged his bond with.

He is very much a villain at that point, and he was more than happy to kill Goku alongside Radditz. He makes that very clear. While he may not be much like his father, something that is pointed out, he still cares for no one, is completely ruthless, and doesn't think of Gohan as anything other than means to an end.

And once again, you go on and on and on about Goku's plan and forever refuse to acknowledge that Gohan was the only one with the power to defeat Cell. It's not something Goku planned on. It doesn't matter if Gohan wants to fight. It's a crappy situation, but one that wasn't forced on Gohan by his father. It was forced on him because of his bottomless well of potential. If Gohan doesn't fight, the world ends. It's that simple.

Because he's the only one who can win! Where is the confusion about this coming from?

But. he. couldn't. Goku thinks Gohan can attain that power by simply fighting Cell. But he didn't. He was wrong about Gohan. Gohan's potential is just a small part of him. What about his personality, about what makes him tick, and what it is that gets Gohan in a fightign mood.

The writing in this part of the story is so bad. Gohan never had cold feet like this except for the Saiyan arc. He's so out of character at this point. It's all inorganic drama.

Gohan doesn't get cold feet, though. He was never scared.
I liked this moment, and while it could've been handled better, I think it's interesting and unique. And this side of Goku as this nonchalant careless person is then consistently portrayed in the Buu arc.

Then don't debate. You don't have to continue responding. It's just Dragon Ball, so why does it matter if you think I'm making an unfair comparison? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Life goes on. It's just a kid's show.

I don't care for the best dad debate but I do care about people dragging characters down unnecessarily. I think people are right in thinking Goku's parenting skills are questionable, that doesn't mean I think Gohan would've been better off being taken in by Piccolo.
As I said, this isn't necessarily about this debate so much as about others. You could've always stopped continuing too. I like debating about stuff I like, and I'd rather flex my debate muscles on something light and inconsequential like Dragon Ball than something serious, since I never have fun with those.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's not something Goku planned on.

I was under the impression Goku planned about his son beating Cell already quite early, remember him saying with a smile he cannot defeat Cell, all his hopes -and as you rightly say he was right- were on Gohan lol

[Michsi]

It's not something Goku planned on.

I was under the impression Goku planned about his son beating Cell already quite early, remember him saying with a smile he cannot defeat Cell, all his hopes -and as you rightly say he was right- were on Gohan lol

Yeah, when he goes to Master Karin he asks him to check his power and compare it to Cell, and then Karin tells him that Cell is still stronger. Goku's not all surprised at this or even worried, which confuses Gohan too.