So I rewatched Dragon Ball GT

[Bullza]

They're aliens or otherworldly beings. They don't have to meet Earthly expectations

Of course but I'm just saying they're plain bad character designs. Dragon Ball Z has some great character designs. Dragon Ball Super has good ones as well, Champa, Vados, Hit, Magetta, Zamasu, Toppo and so on.

GT...ehhh they just looked lame.

The Shadow Dragons hardly even resembles Dragons. One was a bird, one was a mole and one was humanoid female. Nova and Eis had the exact same design, did they run out of ideas after just six?

Only Omega Shenron looks any good.

[mute_proxy]

Of course but I'm just saying they're plain bad character designs. Dragon Ball Z has some great character designs. Dragon Ball Super has good ones as well, Champa, Vados, Hit, Magetta, Zamasu, Toppo and so on.

GT...ehhh they just looked lame.

The Shadow Dragons hardly even resembles Dragons. One was a bird, one was a mole and one was humanoid female. Nova and Eis had the exact same design, did they run out of ideas after just six?

Only Omega Shenron looks any good.

Now lets switch sides and imagine that Super was Toei's brain child (since we know how much people love hating things non Toriyama). An evil green Kaioshin and an evil Goku? Wow, so original. A fat Winnie the Pooh knockoff, a lava eating robot, a big fat Lorax knockoff (Toppo), a Freeza clone? Seriously, did they run out of ideas? Champa and Beerus had the exact same designs only one was fat. Vados is just a female Whis with a different color palette. Jiren the stereotypical grey alien on steroids. A fukin female Broly?? Laaaame.

That's what it looks like watching people discuss GT. The designs are bad because it's GT, not because they're actually bad. And that's dumb.

[Shaddy]

Or maybe, y'know, they legit don't think they're good.

Super has plenty of awful character designs, but every GT character has hideous oversaturated color schemes (especially fucking mustard yellow smeared EVERYWHERE) and half of every villain has tiny eyes with giant hairless brows, a giant chin and a stocky build that makes them look uglier than literally any other villain. Don Kee, Rilldo, Ledgic, Mutchy, Dolltaki, two out of three Para paras, Nuova, Eis, and Syn Shenron. Even if it were an attractive design it would get old fast.

I'd say Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru is a better designer than Yamamuro in terms of actual artwork, but god do the trends in his actual concept work annoy me.

Anyway the point is, people like or dislike things because they like or dislike them, not some stupid vendetta against you and your boring twenty year-old cartoon.

[Bullza]

Now lets switch sides and imagine that Super was Toei's brain child (since we know how much people love hating things non Toriyama). An evil green Kaioshin and an evil Goku? Wow, so original. A fat Winnie the Pooh knockoff, a lava eating robot, a big fat Lorax knockoff (Toppo), a Freeza clone? Seriously, did they run out of ideas? Champa and Beerus had the exact same designs only one was fat. Vados is just a female Whis with a different color palette. Jiren the stereotypical grey alien on steroids. A fukin female Broly?? Laaaame.

That's what it looks like watching people discuss GT. The designs are bad because it's GT, not because they're actually bad. And that's dumb.

Well having an unoriginal character design and a ugly character design are two different things. Yes Zamasu and Goku Black don't have original character designs but they are good character designs.

Whereas this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is over designed and doesn't look like it fits with the rest of the series where did those clothes even come from?

Botamo wasn't anything special but Magetta has a genuinely good character design, one of the better ones actually.

This

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Looks drastically better than this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That one from GT just looks completely awful and a mess.

Toppo, Champa, Jiren and Vados do have pretty good designs. Not the very best but they're not awful like in GT. I mean what are these?

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

Why does everything just look so childish? Even worse than that, they even messed up when it came to Vegeta by giving him a mustache, Goku is suddenly very tan and Goten has laughable looking hair. So even when they had good character designs to begin with they somehow still found a way of messing them up.

You know how Ribrianne had an intentionally ugly character design, that's basically what you got with GT except it wasn't​ intended and they just were ugly.

[Timetraveller]

Now lets switch sides and imagine that Super was Toei's brain child (since we know how much people love hating things non Toriyama). An evil green Kaioshin and an evil Goku? Wow, so original. A fat Winnie the Pooh knockoff, a lava eating robot, a big fat Lorax knockoff (Toppo), a Freeza clone? Seriously, did they run out of ideas? Champa and Beerus had the exact same designs only one was fat. Vados is just a female Whis with a different color palette. Jiren the stereotypical grey alien on steroids. A fukin female Broly?? Laaaame.

That's what it looks like watching people discuss GT. The designs are bad because it's GT, not because they're actually bad. And that's dumb.

Well having an unoriginal character design and a ugly character design are two different things. Yes Zamasu and Goku Black don't have original character designs but they are good character designs.

Whereas this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is over designed and doesn't look like it fits with the rest of the series where did those clothes even come from?

Botamo wasn't anything special but Magetta has a genuinely good character design, one of the better ones actually.

This

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Looks drastically better than this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That one from GT just looks completely awful and a mess.

Toppo, Champa, Jiren and Vados do have pretty good designs. Not the very best but they're not awful like in GT. I mean what are these?

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

Why does everything just look so childish? Even worse than that, they even messed up when it came to Vegeta by giving him a mustache, Goku is suddenly very tan and Goten has laughable looking hair. So even when they had good character designs to begin with they somehow still found a way of messing them up.

You know how Ribrianne had an intentionally ugly character design, that's basically what you got with GT except it wasn't intended and they just were ugly.

Super is a show that's full or recolors like all the transformations and unoriginal designs like the superheroes in spandex. I can be selective too.

The strongest being in the universe looks like this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Some of the strongest fighters in the multiverse look like this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Transformations in the show are literally recolors of past designs

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The other evil Vegeta in the series looks like this

[spoiler][/spoiler]


I'm not going to lie, I thought GT's robots had a better design that Magetta too. The designs in DBS were too kid-friendly (toned down). They reused a lot of the designs like not aging Trunks or Goten probably to make the characters familiar with what we grew up with. I'm not saying there aren't any good designs. Beerus and most of the angels have great designs. Toei's design for UI was a step in the right direction in terms of them not using Toriyama's recolors.

[sintzu]

I just finished episode 30 and...I'm done. EP30 was the worst and most cringe worthy thing I've ever seen. This show is just boring with every potential great idea or moment being wasted in favor of the worst execution and fight choreography. I really went into this with a positive and open mind but so far it's been one disappointment after another. Ssj4 is truly the only saving grace this show has and without it I honestly don't think it'll qualify for a 1 out of 10 rating as its done nothing right besides it. I know that's not the most fair thing to say about something I haven't finished but with what I saw and what I know about what comes later on... . I might finish it up sometime down the road (an episode here and there) but as things stand I highly, highly doubt my opinion will change about it which is very unfortunate because I've defended GT a lot in the past and even recently but my memory from 10 years ago was clearly not accurate.

I've complained countless times about Super but compared to GT it's a 10 out of 10 masterpiece which says a lot about GT's lack of quality as Super itself is very flawed, both in comparison to the original 2 anime and other franchises.

[sunsetshimmer]

They're aliens or otherworldly beings. They don't have to meet Earthly expectations

Of course but I'm just saying they're plain bad character designs. Dragon Ball Z has some great character designs. Dragon Ball Super has good ones as well, Champa, Vados, Hit, Magetta, Zamasu, Toppo and so on.

GT...ehhh they just looked lame.

The Shadow Dragons hardly even resembles Dragons. One was a bird, one was a mole and one was humanoid female. Nova and Eis had the exact same design, did they run out of ideas after just six?

Only Omega Shenron looks any good.

While DBS has some good designs, none of those you mentioned are good except Hit.

Zamasu is just kaioshin. Champa is fat Beerus and Vados is female Whis. Magetta is more original but i can't call him good in any way. And yes, he looks a bit better than Sigma Force, but Sigma Force are the WORST designs in GT.

Oceanus true form looked like dragon. And what did you expect? Fighting against 7 big shenron copies? All of them were unique. You stick to the word "dragon" too much. Porunga doesn't look like dragon to me either. The same goes for Super Shenron who looks like legendary Pokemon.


Also, how is Baby Vegeta overdesigned? It's just that Goku Black has lazy design.
Baby Vegeta could just look like Vegeta for fanservice reasons but they actually decided to make him look unique and mix his design with Baby. He looks like that becasue Baby was evolving inside his body and was becoming him more and more.

Toppo, Champa, Jiren and Vados do have pretty good designs. Not the very best but they're not awful like in GT. I mean what are these?

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

I don't see any problem here. Naturon looks great to me. Sheela is actually pretty hot. Sugoro is comedic character, i don't find his design any worse than Monaka. Zoonama well, he isn't great but i don't see anything wrong with him either.
And honestly, i could ask the same. What are these?

[Bullza]

I can be selective too.

I wasn't being selective though, I named most of the main characters. Amongst the villains of the show, Don Kee, Gale, Sheela, Ledgic, Para Brothers, Mutchy, Sigma Force, Baby Vegeta 3, Rage, Naturon and Oceanus Shenron all have crappy designs.

Rildo is decent, a couple forms of Baby Vegeta are alright because it's really just Vegeta, Super 17 is alright and Syn Shenron is fairly good.

Transformations in the show are literally recolors of past designs

You know full well that image does the difference no justice. These aren't that alike

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Zamasu is just kaioshin. Champa is fat Beerus and Vados is female Whis.

Just a Kaioshin? You make that sound like it's an automatic negative. Yeah he belongs to the same race as Shin but he still has a good design. Same with Champa and Vados they might be somewhat similar but as long as they're good that's all that matters.

Oceanus true form looked like dragon. And what did you expect? Fighting against 7 big shenron copies? All of them were unique. You stick to the word "dragon" too much. Porunga doesn't look like dragon to me either. The same goes for Super Shenron who looks like legendary Pokemon.

They're literally called Shadow Dragons and one of them looks like a mole, the thing that least resembles a dragon. Oceanus' true form somewhat resembled a dragon but it was mainly shown as a woman.

Haze Shenron at least sort of resembled a dragon so that's no excuse for the one that looks like a chicken.

Also, how is Baby Vegeta overdesigned? It's just that Goku Black has lazy design.

They stuck too much on him and made him look tacky. Goku Black wasn't lazy, it was simplistic and those were always the best designs. You know when you see these DBAF fan designs and they look over the top and ridiculous? It's because GT started that.

By the end he didn't even resemble Vegeta at all and one of the things they kept mentioning was how they couldn't hurt him because he had their friends body which is kinda lost when it doesn't look like him. They should have stopped at this.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And honestly, i could ask the same. What are these?

Two of those are intentionally ugly, they're part of a parody. Clone Vegeta....looks like a purple Vegeta and Maji Kayo...he was alright.

Super also had these

[spoiler]

















[/spoiler]

You two are singling out the ones that are particularly weak whereas I was referring to them as a whole including how they messed up the main characters like Goku and Vegeta. They did introduce dozens of characters at once so yeah there's gonna be some naff ones.

Super Saiyan 4 Goku is acceptable but then Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and particularly Gogeta just look goofy. Suddenly he just gets red hair out of nowhere even though Gotenks and Gogeta in Fusion Reborn never got a new hair colour, they had the same black colour but no in GT it's red for no reason.

[ABED]

Baby Vegeta's design was not that complicated.

[PsionicWarrior]

Teat Vegeta is at least as bad as mustache Vegeta imo lol
Btw I thought this thread was to put a refreshed GT opinion after watching it again, why is it turning into GT vs Super again, word of caution last two threads that went this route were brutally closed with red warnings from the site owner lol

[sintzu]

I thought this thread was to put a refreshed GT opinion after watching it again, why is it turning into GT vs Super again ?

It's hard not to compare them as they're both sequels to the original story.

[Robo4900]

I thought this thread was to put a refreshed GT opinion after watching it again, why is it turning into GT vs Super again, word of caution last two threads that went this route were brutally closed with red warnings from the site owner lol

Inevitably, any time GT is mentioned, its detractors will appear in full force recycling the same things that they say in every thread. To counter it, its fans reply in full force recycling the same things they say in every thread. 99% of the time, the Super comparison is brought up by someone, and the thread devolves into Super vs GT. And just like Super itself, the thread becomes a rehash of everything we've already seen before, just with new windowdressing.

I do wish we could have a GT thread one of these days where we actually dig into things, talk about it, and have a measured critical discussion that doesn't just boil down to "gt sux" "no" "yes" "no and its not canon either bcuz super" "lol no super sux" "no u" "no u" "no u" "no u" "no u"...
There's a lot to discuss about GT that doesn't boil down to the stuff that every GT thread devolves into, it's like how internet discussions of Mass Effect inevitably turn to "dat ending tho lol" or Last Jedi becomes "i hate it becuz it sukd" "u hate it so u must be racist" "no u" "no u" "no u" "no u" "no u"...

It's hard not to compare them as they're both sequels to the original story.

Super pointedly isn't a sequel, it's an interquel, as is appropriate given its status as the series that tries to recapture the nostalgia of the original rather than GT's strategy of moving on and doing new things. And that's not to disaparage Super, either; both are valid routes to go for a follow-up to an old, beloved work, in fact Star Wars has done it both ways and succeeded massively at it.
Ultimately, Super and GT cater to two very different kinds of Dragon Ball fan, though. GT caters to people looking for the next chapter in the story, Super caters to people looking to return to something they have fond, distant memories of. They ultimately don't compare very well, because they're totally different beasts. It's kind of the opposite problem of comparing DB and Z, since DB and Z are the same story, it's just that they were arbitrarily split up based on when it was convenient for the staff to move over, and they could find an epoch to change the title at for marketing reasons. So, you're really comparing two parts of the same thing, which is rather odd. Really, DB and Z should be discussed as one work because that's how it was always supposed to be, and Super and GT should be discussed separately because they're vastly different series with vastly different goals made in vastly different time periods by a completely different staff for a vastly different audience with a vastly different idea of what they want out of a Dragon Ball series.

You want to enjoy a nostalgic celebration of a franchise that's been on hold for 14 or 21 years(Depending on if you're originally an English or Japanese fan) which attempts to bring back the old feeling and keep it going forever? Super is your series.
You want to try a different take on Dragon Ball that will subvert your expectations, and do things no other Dragon Ball series would dare try which brings this beloved classic to a close after a grand 11-year run? GT is your series.

[sunsetshimmer]

Just a Kaioshin? You make that sound like it's an automatic negative.

Well yeah, because it's much easier to make good design when you base it on already existing and good design.
It's hard to fail Zamasu's design when he is just another kaioshin.

They're literally called Shadow Dragons and one of them looks like a mole, the thing that least resembles a dragon. Oceanus' true form somewhat resembled a dragon but it was mainly shown as a woman.

Well Naturon looked like a mole because he had a mole body. In his true form he didn't look that much different compared to other dragons.
And Oceanus looking like that obviously made her more memorable and fun.

By the end he didn't even resemble Vegeta at all

Well that was the point. He started to turn into Baby more and more, but he still had saiyan characteristic.
You may call Goku Black a simplicity but it doesn't make Baby overdesigned. It's just more original and more creative.
He actually has pretty simple look, he just doesn't look like Vegeta. There is nothing complicated about his design seriously.

Super also had these

[spoiler]

















[/spoiler]

Well. Hit has good design.
Future Trunks is just pathetic
Mai is good
Fused Zamasu is decent in manga, in anime he doesn't look good at all
That fox thing i don't even know what is it sorry, but it isn't anything special really, completely forgettable design
Basil (i think?) is okay
That monk is just awful
Belmod is bad
Toppo is pretty good in that form only
Jiren is boring as hell and that pic is just naked Jiren with some aura. Remove that aura and there isn't anything worth seeing.

Well Super and GT has different style for designs. GT's designs were more futuristic, sci-fi and based on machines and monsters while DBS designs are either more human or based on animals. The only exception are Shadow Dragons which looked more classic. The most classic designs from GT are those from "A Hero's Legacy" and those are characters that i could totally see as one of the strongest in some universe in Super considering what kind of characters were there in tournament.

[Bullza]

Well Naturon looked like a mole because he had a mole body. In his true form he didn't look that much different compared to other dragons.

But why did they have to give him a mole body. The Shadow Dragon idea was pretty good, we hadn't seen anything like a humanoid dragon before and then they go and have one, a half serious villain that is essentially this.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And why is he brown there but he's purple when he's larger? Even the colouring is inconsistent in the show.

He actually has pretty simple look, he just doesn't look like Vegeta. There is nothing complicated about his design seriously.

There's too much on him. If you look at Frieza he's very simple looking and iconic. Majin Buu is the same, he's just a fat pink bumble gum with a cape. Baby Vegeta has too much going on, why does he have white hair? He took over Goten and Gohan and they still had gold hair when he went Super Saiyan so why does Vegeta randomly have white hair?

There's another Vegeta hair inconsistency with Super Saiyan 4. Vegeta has black hair.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But when he becomes Super Saiyan 4 he now has brown hair.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Why? When Goku went Super Saiyan 4 his hair colour stayed black.

Future Trunks is just pathetic
That fox thing i don't even know what is it sorry, but it isn't anything special really, completely forgettable design
That monk is just awful
Jiren is boring as hell and that pic is just naked Jiren with some aura. Remove that aura and there isn't anything worth seeing.

What's wrong with Trunks? Majora is inspired by Chinese martial arts whereas Muchirim has an Indian inspired design. It's good when they design characters from different cultures. Jiren still looks cool without the aura.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You want to talk about pathetic character redesigns then what's this?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He looks like he's come out of a 80's gay club. It's that bad that it's funny nowadays.

[sintzu]

Super tries to recapture the nostalgia of the original rather than GT's strategy of moving on and doing new things. GT caters to people looking for the next chapter in the story, Super caters to people looking to return to something they have fond, distant memories of.

DB and Z are the same story, it's just that they were arbitrarily split up based on when it was convenient for marketing reasons. DB and Z should be discussed as one work because that's how it was always supposed to be.

You want to try a different take on Dragon Ball that will subvert your expectations, and do things no other Dragon Ball series would dare ? GT is your series.

Both are the next chapter of the story and both tried to cater to fans who liked the original. The real difference between the 2 is that one failed while the other succeeded. I don't know how you can watch GT's 1st episodes and say it's original when it not only tried to recapture the feel of early DB but it also did the same gags.

Agreed.

What did GT do differently ? It tried to recapture what early DB did and when that failed it tried to recapture what mid-late DB & Z did which also failed. The only reason it ended was because it was dead on arrival and that was the only thing it could do. Not only is Super a very healthy brand name but it also skyrocketed the franchise to heights I don't think it reached even during the original manga's run. If GT was that successful it wouldn't have ended cancelled after a year and a half.

[sunsetshimmer]

But why did they have to give him a mole body. The Shadow Dragon idea was pretty good, we hadn't seen anything like a humanoid dragon before and then they go and have one, a half serious villain that is essentially this.

Well they wanted to make a plottwist of him just acting as idiot and actually possessing someone for entire time, but mole worked good because it also made Naturon connected to earth element. All dragons had some connections to elements like water, fire, wind.

And why is he brown there but he's purple when he's larger? Even the colouring is inconsistent in the show.

Well that's just his transformed body. He is also blue after absorbing Pan. I don't see a reason to try to apply any logic to it. He was just designed that way.
SSJ is yellow, SSJG is red, why is SSJ Blue well...blue? Adding yellow to red doesn't make blue. You see?

There's too much on him. If you look at Frieza he's very simple looking and iconic.

There isn't much. He actually looks a lot like adult Baby, he just has more human body with hair, skin and different suit color.
Does he look overdesigned to you? I don't think he is more complicated than Frieza. Besides, Frieza's 2nd and especially 3rd form doesn't look simple to me as well.
And why does Goku Black has pink hair? Baby was evolving and chose Vegeta as his main host. He not only had just white hair. His face looked already different as well. White hair is result of turning SSJ by saiyan-tuffle hybrid.

But when he becomes Super Saiyan 4 he now has brown hair.

SSJ4 didn't meant to have consistent look. Gogeta SSJ4 had red hair. I don't really think base Gogeta has red hair as well.
Everyone look unique as SSJ4 and that's it. Once again, it isn't any plothole, he was just designed that way, just like SSJ3 doesn't have eyebrows. Why? Base Goku has eyebrows. Why not as SSJ3?

What's wrong with Trunks? Majora is inspired by Chinese martial arts whereas Muchirim has an Indian inspired design. It's good when they design characters from different cultures. Jiren still looks cool without the aura.

If you compare him to DBZ Trunks he looks pathetic. He is slim and has blue hair. Something that still wasn't explained. Bulma asked Kid Trunks if the one from capsule has the same hair color as him. They even avoid talking about this color. When they showed Kai restrospection they showed it in black&white to avoid showing purple hair on Trunks. Being inspired doesn't mean being good to me honestly. Jiren looks boring. There isn't anything special about his look. He just looks like generic ufo, just muscled.

You want to talk about pathetic character redesigns then what's this?

That's what happens when Toriyama works on DB
And i'm sure it was meant to be funny. Toriyama was never serious and i don't think he wanted Vegeta to look serious and fight with that moustache.

[PsionicWarrior]

And just like Super itself, the thread becomes a rehash

Calling it a rehash because it tries to be in the DB and Z spirit at times is dishonest IMO, Super brought tons of new stuff on the table by expanding the lore and introducing new characters with unique abilities lol

That's what happens when Toriyama works on DB

Please do not forget Toriyama ALSO created the whole DB to begin with and if side products are being created is only because it was a hit first cheers lol

[ABED]

GT wasn't a good series, but the series suffered big time from coming straight off of DBZ which was already sufferering from audience exhaustion. DB had been on air for nearly a decade straight and the manga even longer. It's hard to say with certainty that GT wouldn't have gotten a similar reception that Super has if it came after a two decade long break.

[Timetraveller]

You know full well that image does the difference no justice. These aren't that alike

That's how Toriyama designed them. The CGI aura doesn't change the fact that they're essentially recolors.

Also, how is Baby Vegeta overdesigned? It's just that Goku Black has lazy design.

They stuck too much on him and made him look tacky. Goku Black wasn't lazy, it was simplistic and those were always the best designs. You know when you see these DBAF fan designs and they look over the top and ridiculous? It's because GT started that.

Fans were recoloring Super saiyan forms ever since SS1 made its debut 30 years ago. Mainly because actually coming up with new designs is more difficult than just coloring the hair a different color. There's a difference between simplicity and straight up tracing and changing the color scheme, which is what Toriyama did in Super.

You want to talk about pathetic character redesigns then what's this?

He looks like a regular dude from the 90s.....with a mustache. You know our style's change as the years go on and you get older, right? Could you imagine what the older folk/older gen would think if they saw the tight pants people wear today?

Jiren's design was a generic (bald) grey alien head placed on the generic design of a superhero in spandex.

There were some interesting designs like Murichim but they appeared for seconds and made no real impact on the show. That's what happens when you focus on quantity over quality. 80 new characters introduced in one arc, 74 of them fodder with no development and minimal screen time. There's bound to be at least a few decent to good designs like Dyspo and Obuni.

[sintzu]

That's what happens when Toriyama works on DB

Please do not forget Toriyama ALSO created the whole DB to begin with.

Toriyama said in an interview (that you can fine in the translation section) that he made those GT designs based on what was asked of him from Toei's staff so that Vegeta design was most likely what they asked him to design. It's also known that they changed it because Toriyama's daughter (or someone related to him) told Toei it looked ugly.

GT wasn't a good series, but the series suffered big time from coming straight off of DBZ which was already suffering from audience exhaustion.

Even with the audience being a bit burned out, things wouldn't have turned out the way they did had GT not been so bad. DB, despite its many strengths, is a Shonen battle series yet somehow, someway, GT completely messed that up.