PsionicWarrior wrote:Calling it a rehash because it tries to be in the DB and Z spirit at times is dishonest IMO, Super brought tons of new stuff on the table by expanding the lore and introducing new characters with unique abilities lol
First two arcs were quite literally rehashes of material we'd seen as little as a few months earlier.
Disregarding those, we have...
- A tournament arc that does nothing that hadn't already been done before -- bunch of guys, most of whom have some kind of unique gimmick, who fight the protagonists for an episode or two in which the full extent of what their gimmick means in a fight can be explored, and eventually countered;
- The return of Trunks fighting a doppelganger of Goku who acts nothing like him but is really strong and aims to destroy the world in a plot that basically combines the Piccolo Daimao and Androids arcs together, but without any of the subversive twists that made them major game-changers for the series at the time;
- Another tournament, which tries to bring something new to the table by introducing Dragon Ball's ~15th villain whose only real innovation is "Stronger than everyone else", and its fourth or fifth where the way of defeating him is bringing in a new form(Sorry, did I say a new form? I meant two. And of course, there is that third one that looks very familiar...).
Again, I'm not criticising the series here, believe it or not. This is a perfectly valid way to make a follow-up to a beloved work; Star Wars did it exceptionally well with The Force Awakens, and I can praise that film to no end.
PsionicWarrior wrote:sunsetshimmer wrote:That's what happens when Toriyama works on DB
Please do not forget Toriyama ALSO created the whole DB to begin with and if side products are being created is only because it was a hit first cheers lol
It is a rather different situation, though. Unlike DB and Z, Toriyama wasn't directly putting the story out himself, he just writes an outline, lets Toei deal with it, then collaborates with Toyotaro to create the manga version. In the original run, if there was something that didn't pan out as well as he thought it would when it's actually committed to the page, he could just twist it around, subvert it, or otherwise refocus things to get around the issue. It also helps that back then, he would basically just write things as he came up with them, allowing him to totally change the direction the story is going in without compromising any plans he had going. Toei would then adapt whatever was going on into an anime. With Super, he just hands in his overall plot in full, and Toei have to figure out how to make it work.
sintzu wrote:Both are the next chapter of the story and both tried to cater to fans who liked the original. The real difference between the 2 is that one failed while the other succeeded. I don't know how you can watch GT's 1st episodes and say it's original when it not only tried to recapture the feel of early DB but it also did the same gags.
About half of the first 8 or 10 episodes basically were a return to the roots of the franchise, which didn't really work out so well. They didn't have Toriyama writing the stories, so the Toriyama-esque episodes early on didn't come off well at all. However, some of that material -- Imegga, in particular -- showed what the series would evolve into just a few episodes later when things moved to M-2, where new stories would be told in a very different style and way to what had come before would take place.
So, yes, the very early portion of GT was derivative, but that pointedly didn't work, so they switched things over and did stuff like the Luud cult, M-2, and very soon, the entire Baby storyline.
Judging the entire series based on this early period where they were just finding their feet is rather foolish, though. It would be like judging Star Trek: The Next Generation based on its first season, and as any fan will tell you, season 1 of TNG is crap, and doesn't represent the show itself at all; judging it based on this early period where the show was still floundering to find its niche is a monumentally bad idea.
Take note of the fact that when I criticise Super, while I will take pot shots at the first two arcs, which were literally just rehashes of the two movies everyone had already seen only a few months prior, I don't really judge the series on much else than the U6, Black, and ToP arcs.
sintzu wrote:What did GT do differently ? It tried to recapture what early DB did and when that failed it tried to recapture what mid-late DB & Z did which also failed. The only reason it ended was because it was dead on arrival and that was the only thing it could do. Not only is Super a very healthy brand name but it also skyrocketed the franchise to heights I don't think it reached even during the original manga's run. If GT was that successful it wouldn't have ended cancelled after a year and a half.
GT did a lot differently. Imegga, Luud, and M-2 all have a pulpy space adventure vibe that Dragon Ball had never really had. It was like Dragon Ball does Flash Gordon. This kind of vibe continued quite strongly throughout the series, and kind of defined what the series would be like, in much the same way as the Piccolo Daimao arc defined what everything until the Boo arc would be like.
In addition, the actual plots themselves were generally very unique, and in general the style was different from what Dragon Ball had done before; Toriyama would have never done anything like GT in the manga. Sure, some of the early episodes I addressed above are very Toriyama-esque, but that was very much to their detriment; when GT was in full swing, it was a style of storytelling that was distinctly not Toriyama-esque, and it told stories Toriyama would never have told. A lot of people don't like it for that, but I consider that its biggest strength; Dragon Ball had already undergone some seasonal rot, and as much as I do love the Boo arc, the series was very much on its last legs at that point, so a complete lateral move in a new direction was exactly what the show needed to last in any meaningful way.
Of course, it didn't last. As you say, it was dead on arrival; ratings had been on a slow downturn across the Boo arc, and while there was a small boost for the people who decided to tune in for the final few episodes of Z, GT's ratings stayed at about the same level as you see in the mid-Boo arc for most of its run, with a slow decline as more and more people checked out of the series due to fatigue from 11 years of continuous weekly Dragon Ball... The Japanese audience was just kind of done with the show by the time the Boo arc was getting into full swing, so even if GT had been the greatest piece of media in the entire franchise, the show was already dead.
GT pointedly is not particularly disliked outside of the USA; it's not loved like DB and Z are, but general feeling on GT just isn't the negative picture the American fandom likes to paint of it. The franchise was dying, Toriyama was smart to end it when he did, and no matter what Toei put on TV after Z, it was going to be doomed to the same treatment GT got; decent-ish but still somewhat disappointing ratings that justified one short renewal(Remember, the original series order for GT was 40 episodes. It was renewed for 24 more episodes after this. It wasn't just a case of "This sucks, cancel it now", it's a case of renewing it once, but defining these 24 episodes as their last batch), but nothing more.
Does this mean GT's reputation is entirley undeserved? No. There are tons of ways you could criticise GT, tons of things you could point to that are totally valid reasons as to why it didn't and shouldn't do as well as DB and Z did. However, completely decrying the series and calling it an unmitigated disaster that's universally hated is just a tad uncalled for, and somewhat naive given the generally positive(Though somewhat lukewarm compared to its precessors) reception it has across the rest of the world.
sunsetshimmer wrote:sintzu wrote:The problem is that everything we were told and shown was wasted when Baby decided to leave his people behind once Goku beat him, by doing that he just ended up being another bad guy.
Well, none of them were really Tuffles so it's not like he abandoned his race. They were still earthlings and saiyans just with Tuffle mentality.
It's hard to call that lose as a lose to Tuffles race. Besides, Goku and othrers already started to heal people with sacred water.
I mean, they didn't even have the Tsufurian mentality, they were just brainwashed to like and follow whatever Baby wants, and even then, as you say, Goku was curing everyone with the water. So not only were they not his people, but they were quickly losing their status as his disciples.
Even if Baby and Goku were on even ground, he would be losing overall due to all the people turning on him, so Baby's only real option was to leave. If he got lucky, he could have retreated to a planet that wouldn't be quite so prepared to defend itself against him so he could amass greater forces to accomplish his goal with. Ultimately, Baby is the last of the Tsufurians; until he's managed to get the species to have a proper return, his survival is paramount, so if his plan is going south, and Goku has nearly killed him, he needs to get out of there and figure out a plan B.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
. I might finish it up sometime down the road (an episode here and there) but as things stand I highly, highly doubt my opinion will change about it which is very unfortunate because I've defended GT a lot in the past and even recently but my memory from 10 years ago was clearly not accurate.
