So I rewatched Dragon Ball GT

[Bullza]

This month I went through Dragon Ball GT for the third time having not watched it for years now, probably 2011 or so. Like most people I never really liked it but this time around I took people's advice from here and I watched it with the Japanese music and it was definitely more bearable.

Here's just a run down of my collection of thoughts on the show that people don't really care about but I just want to share anyway. So to go from the beginning.

Black Star Dragon Saga

This was the absolute low point of the series, easily. The first two episodes were actually not that bad, they were still on Earth and the main characters were around. Once they leave Earth the series goes to shit.

One of the main reasons it's so bad and one of the worst things about GT as a whole is Pan. Whenever Pan is at the front and center the series takes a nosedive. I have no idea what they were thinking when they decided on that personality for the character.

Aside from that it's all very childish and very episodic. I can see why Funimation completely skipped most of it over.

Baby Saga

This is the high point of the series. This is when they realised what they were doing was boring so they made it more like DBZ. From when they reach M-2 it improves significantly and throughout to the end of the saga except for the episode where Goku played that dice game with Sugoro, it had a decent and lengthy run.

They went back to Earth, they brought some of the other characters into it more. Baby was the best villain in GT though he wasn't great.

Super Saiyan 4 I will never understand why it's so popular. The fight with Baby itself wasn't that great because they ruined it by making him an ape which meant no actual hand to hand fighting could be done.

The last episode of the saga where Piccolo dies was probably the best episode in the series. This saga did have some good ideas which it didn't pull very well at all.

Super 17 Saga

From this point GT had no story at all. This was a short and forgettable saga. Pan wasn't around much so that was a plus and they gave the other characters more to do so that was another plus.

But there was no story at all, Dr Myuu and Dr Gero team up, the Android 17's fuse together, he fights Goku for a bit, he dies and then it's all over.

Also the animation really took a dive here.

Shadow Dragon Saga

This was a longer saga and yet it still had no story to it. It had a good idea with the Dragon Balls being used against them from over use but then there's nothing else to it really. The Shadow Dragons show up, spread out and then by the next episode they've already apparently made their impact even though it's just a day or so later.

They're toxic and doing damage to the Earth so Goku and Pan go out to fight and beat them and that's it, that's all there is to the story.

The start of this saga where they come across the first four Dragons is the next lowest point In the series and naturally Pan is a main character at this point again. The latter half is better but it's also pretty boring. Vegeta finally has something to actually do after having done nothing for about 60 episodes. The ending was pretty good though, better than DBZ at least.

Random Pros

1. It had some good ideas.

2. It showed more of the Universe.

3. The animation was mostly consistent.

4. The music was alright.

5. Vegeta's mustache was funny.

Random Cons

1. Tien and Yamcha I'm pretty sure never uttered a word in the series.

2. Gohan does nothing.

3. Piccolo was in perhaps 5 episodes.

4. The Power scaling was a mess.

5. The American Music and the Narrator tried to make a really campy show sound edgy and cool and it sounds ridiculous.

6. Making Goku a kid was a terrible idea.

7. Uub was wasted entirely.

Overall

It's mediocre, it was at its best from around episode 25-40, at that point it was probably a 6/10. At its lowest probably a 4/10 so overall perhaps 5/10. Any comparison to Dragon Ball Super to me is absolutely laughable.

Even though Super has its flaws as well it is a drastically superior show in almost every single way. Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really. Super always had the main characters around and GT didn't for long portions. Super has the better story, animation, music, original characters, humour and fight scenes. GT.....maybe the better ending if I had to give it something.

[sintzu]

I tried re-watching it 2 years ago but episodes 6-15 killed it for me. I'm trying again but this time with the Japanese cast and I decided to skip those 10 episodes and just continue ep5 with ep16. I've finished 15 episodes (1-5 & 16-25) and so far it's pretty boring while the episodes I skipped were outright terrible. Goku being turned into a kid is the worst thing the franchise has ever done. The idea of the dragon balls being spread across different planets is a great one as it could've expanded the dragon world but the stories they told before M2 were just a waste of time. They couldn't have picked a more odd selection of characters if they tired as Goku, Trunks and Pan have little to nothing in common so there's never that excitement to see them together. The initial team Of Goku, Goten and Trunks would've been a far better one as they have more in common with one another. General Rilldo is a cool looking character with interesting abilities but his fight with Goku was very lackluster and the way he was "defeated" was nothing short of insulting. Baby being in charge of the machine mutants was a nice surprise as it seemed like he was just another being created for "world domination". The focus has finally shifted to earth and Goten is about to fight Baby which gets us away from space and Goku's team.

So far it's not the most interesting thing they could've come up with and is a far cry from the excitement I was having watching Super, despite it also having issues but I plan on watching till the end.

[ABED]

This was a longer saga and yet it still had no story to it.

Are you saying the story is bad or do you literally mean there is no story? If it's the latter, that's just not true. What constitutes a story? It's a series of interconnected events that leads to a climax and resolution. The very basic story is the abuse of the DB's leads to them turning evil and releasing powerful dragons. The dragons cause destruction, therefore Goku goes looking for them to stop them. The story's execution is lackluster much of the time, but it is a story.

Goku, Trunks and Pan have little to nothing in common so there's never that excitement to see them together

That's a good thing. You want ensembles to have differences.

GT is full of good ideas but bad execution. A big reason is the lackluster fights. They're boring and lack impact.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I tried re-watching it 2 years ago but episodes 6-15 killed it for me. I'm trying again but this time with the Japanese cast and I decided to skip those 10 episodes and just continue ep5 with ep16. I've finished 15 episodes (1-5 & 16-25) and so far it's pretty boring while the episodes I skipped were outright terrible. Goku being turned into a kid is the worst thing the franchise has ever done. The idea of the dragon balls being spread across different planets is a great one as it could've expanded the dragon world but the stories they told before M2 were just a waste of time. They couldn't have picked a more odd selection of characters if they tired as Goku, Trunks and Pan have little to nothing in common so there's never that excitement to see them together. The initial team Of Goku, Goten and Trunks would've been a far better one as they have more in common with one another. General Rilldo is a cool looking character with interesting abilities but his fight with Goku was very lackluster and the way he was "defeated" was nothing short of insulting. Baby being in charge of the machine mutants was a nice surprise as it seemed like he was just another being created for "world domination". The focus has finally shifted to earth and Goten is about to fight Baby which gets us away from space and Goku's team.

So far it's not the most interesting thing they could've come up with and is a far cry from the excitement I was having watching Super, despite it also having issues but I plan on watching till the end.

I never understood why they didn't have Goku revert back to being an adult after the first arc, you then had the stupidest thing ever with him going from a kid to an adult when going SS4... at least they could have made it so that SS4 permanently broke the spell.

[sunsetshimmer]

I can't agree with almost anything said. And there is no single excuse for FUNimation skipping the first arc that had the most character development. Without it, entire plot of Giru's betrayal was completely wasted because he is only introduced to be said to betray everyone in the same episode. Entire Pan x Giru relationship change is skipped.

One of the main reasons it's so bad and one of the worst things about GT as a whole is Pan.

Pan is the best part of this saga to me and her lack in Baby saga is the biggest downside of that arc

they realised what they were doing was boring so they made it more like DBZ

Funny how you make it sound like DBZ being better than DB was a fact

From when they reach M-2 it improves significantly

Since when M-2 episodes are part of Baby saga?

Baby was the best villain in GT though he wasn't great.

Can't wait to see your definition of great villain if the only DB villain with motive and decent backstory + original design isn't great.

Super Saiyan 4 I will never understand why it's so popular

Probably because of original look, badass character, biggest kill count in shortest series and being a reference to saiyan origins

From this point GT had no story at all

It has a story. Dr Myuu and Dr Gero built a powered-up version of 17 in hell and make him fuse with regular 17 to make Super 17. They also release people from hell. That sounds like a story to me. Good? Bad? Short? Long? Doesn't matter. Saying it doesn't have a story is ignorant af. Even Copy-Vegeta saga has a story.

yet it still had no story to it

Look above. Still ignorant.

The start of this saga where they come across the first four Dragons is the next lowest point

Funny how most people say only the last 3 dragons were interesting because they were typical boring DBZ villains with no personality except Nuova. But hey, at least they looked like dangerous villains. The first four dragons except Rage were better written and in actual DB style.

The Power scaling was a mess.

Give me an examples of power scalling worse than DBS

Making Goku a kid was a terrible idea

For me it's where GT was already better than DBZ since adult Goku was never interesting at all and kid Goku was awesome. Even though him being a kid in GT was a bit faked and forced since only his body became younger. Also, Goku somehow became a bit smarter and wasn't afraid to kill. Just like when he was a child in original series.

Any comparison to Dragon Ball Super to me is absolutely laughable.

Agreed. GT is still far above Super.

Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really.

That's probably the biggest bs you said. GT actually feels like a continuation, time has passed, things have changed, people have grown up.
DBS feels like another DBZ saga, not actual series. I'd even say it feels like another episodes of Buu saga since time has stopped for everyone. The only characters in Super that got any real development were Gohan and Videl. Goten and Trunks didn't change at all, personality and design wise despite ToP taking place 6 years after Buu saga. And Maron is still a baby despite being older than Gohan in Saiyan saga and being about in GT Pan/Bra age, being one year younger than Gohan from Cell games. DBS didn't even change a main cast. Everyone is the same and looks the same, even wearing the same outfits. For GT, you had Pan, you had adult Trunks with new personality different than his future self. There was Uub and Goten with also completely new personality and design. Also, Bra as minor character. So please, don't tell me that DBS feels like continuation, because unlike some of previous things you said, this is no matter of opinion. It's a fact that GT feels more like actual sequel which - surprise - it actually is. DBS is midquel.

I can tell you main cast of DB or GT and you will know what series i am talking about.
If i told you DBS main cast, you won't know if i talk about DBZ or DBS.
That's a difference.

[sintzu]

Goku, Trunks and Pan have little to nothing in common so there's never that excitement to see them together

That's a good thing. You want ensembles to have differences.

Differences are good without a doubt but the way GT handled them wasn't as they were boring together. At least with Goten you could develop his relationship with Goku and we'd see how him being a kid affects it. We could see how far he and Trunks came along in their training and how they work off one another in battle.

At least they could have made it so that SS4 permanently broke the spell.

That would've made sense. I think they thought kids couldn't "relate" to adult Goku so that's why they kept him like that...despite adult Goku being an icon worldwide.

There is no single excuse for FUNimation skipping the first arc that had the most character development. Without it...

Without it GT wouldn't have as bad of a reputation as it does. Even skipping just part of it like what I'm doing makes GT a much, much better show. Yeah I have issues with it but at least I'm able to watch it, those episodes killed it for me last time I tried.

Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really.

That's probably the biggest bs you said. GT actually feels like a continuation, time has passed, things have changed, people have grown up, DBS feels like another DBZ saga.

The feel I and many expect out of a DB product is excitement, something GT complete failed at. Super may have failed at time progression but it more than made up for it in other areas, especially the fights.

[TheGreatness25]

When I was a kid in ye olden days of 1998-2001 when I first heard about GT, I was pumped. I couldn't care less what the story was or how it would go, I would have watched (and if I were able to buy) anything with the title "Dragon Ball" in it. But then, when the series came over onto Toonami in 2003 (was it?), I didn't even follow along. I recall having a couple of episodes on in the background while I was doing something else and never really got into it. That is until one day I was flipping through channels and it was Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta looking to become Gogeta. That episode sucked me in and I actually really enjoyed it. Of course by this point, I've known about Super Saiyan 4 for several years and have marveled at pictures that I could find online. But that episode really made me want to watch more. In 2005 I collected the first "Lost Episode" release and really enjoyed those first few episodes.

If I look at it overall, it's hit and miss with me. For one thing, I really enjoy that it's just a continuation of Dragon Ball. It seems to go down the natural path that was set by Akira Toriyama at the end of Z. I like the little hodgepodge of randomness that is in the first arc (different villains in every episode, etc.), like the machine mutant stuff, really like Baby, and love the idea of the evil dragons. Super 17 was alright, I guess. I enjoyed the interaction that he had with 18. I loved anything related to Super Saiyan 4. I enjoyed any interaction that the characters had between Goten (possessed by Baby) against Gohan, then Gohan against Vegeta, etc. I loved those fights, as short as they were. And that ending was absolutely perfect. And I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually liked Vegeta's hair (sans mustache).

On the flip side, I hated that Goku became a kid again. It seemed unnecessary and I did feel that he should have at least reverted back to his adult self at some point. The pacing was terrible where some things seemingly dragged on forever, while cool moments seemed to just kind of happen in the blink of an eye. I didn't like the women's design in the series where they had gigantic heads and tiny little bodies. I think my only real complaint about the series was the pacing, actually. It makes me wonder what they could have done if they had more time.

Still, I always appreciated GT and rather enjoy it. I think it's a nice "side story" (I bet everyone here has read that line a billion times). I think that with the always-expanding Dragon World, I really would like to see a sequel to GT. There are two stories that I'd love to see being springboarded from Dragon Ball: (1) a pre-Goku arc that focuses on Ox King's and Gohan's training with Muten Roshi and (2) a continuation to GT that would take place between Goku leaving and the Goku Jr. stuff. I could even go for some Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. action. I could go for a Dragon Ball Online or Xenoverse themed story. Basically, I would gladly watch anything Dragon Ball related, anything at all... except the Saiyan stuff and what happens in that gap between the Boo fight and end-of-Z lol I'm burned out on that especially the Saiyan stuff. I feel like at this point, it's beating a dead horse -- that stuff wasn't interesting and adding more and more layers to it just makes it infuriating when you realize that the story keeps changing and will become so retconned that it can literally change every year depending on how the wind blows. I don't like that take on the story writing, so I'd rather they just leave the concrete story the hell alone.

[ABED]

Differences are good without a doubt but the way GT handled them wasn't as they were boring together. At least with Goten you could develop his relationship with Goku and we'd see how him being a kid affects it. We could see how far he and Trunks came along in their training and how they work off one another in battle.

I disagree. I though Pan, Trunks, and Goku (and Giru) played well off each other. It was an enjoyable dynamic. What you are talking about is purely about battles. It's a martial arts story but you still need more than that. You wish they devloped Goku's relationship with Goten, but has is that in essence difference or better than developing Goku's relationship with his granddaughter?

I liked seeing the group including Giru become a family of sorts. I just wish Pan had become little more than the damsel in distress.

[Dbzfan94]

[quote="sunsetshimmer"
Since when M-2 episodes are part of Baby saga? [/quote]

It kind of is. It directly starts the events leading to Baby's awakening.

[sunsetshimmer]

It kind of is. It directly starts the events leading to Baby's awakening.

It doesn't make it part of Baby saga. Just like Baby saga isn't part of Super 17 saga just because killing Myuu resulted in creating Super 17.
M-2 episodes are still part of Black Star Dragon Ball saga.
Baby saga officialy starts with episode 23 and they leave M-2 at the very start of episode.

[TheGreatness25]

Were the arcs ever really split up in the Japanese version? If not, we can kind of make them into whatever we want. Like how lots of people throw Namek and the Ginyu stuff into the "Freeza arc/saga." In recent years, it's become the "Namek arc," but once upon a time, it was just the "Freeza saga."

[ABED]

It kind of is. It directly starts the events leading to Baby's awakening.

It doesn't make it part of Baby saga. Just like Baby saga isn't part of Super 17 saga just because killing Myuu resulted in creating Super 17.
M-2 episodes are still part of Black Star Dragon Ball saga.
Baby saga officialy starts with episode 23 and they leave M-2 at the very start of episode.

It's not a good comparison. The Baby arc arguably begins before even M-2 when we're first introduced to the Para Para brothers who are working for Dolltaki who is working for Dr. Mu who we find out was created by Baby. Even if you don't agree, how does the Baby arc not begin even after he's introduced? The first time we see him is 22. There is not really a Black Star DB arc. An arc requires there to be a beginning, middle, climax, and an end. The Black Star DB "arc" doesn't have a climax nor end.

[Robo4900]

It kind of is. It directly starts the events leading to Baby's awakening.

It doesn't make it part of Baby saga. Just like Baby saga isn't part of Super 17 saga just because killing Myuu resulted in creating Super 17.
M-2 episodes are still part of Black Star Dragon Ball saga.
Baby saga officialy starts with episode 23 and they leave M-2 at the very start of episode.

It's not a good comparison. The Baby arc arguably begins before even M-2 when we're first introduced to the Para Para brothers who are working for Dolltaki who is working for Dr. Mu who we find out was created by Baby. Even if you don't agree, how does the Baby arc not begin even after he's introduced? The first time we see him is 22. There is not really a Black Star DB arc. An arc requires there to be a beginning, middle, climax, and an end. The Black Star DB "arc" doesn't have a climax nor end.

The official Toei starts and ends of arcs are 1-22 for Black Star, 23-40 for Baby, 41-47 for Super #17, and 48-64 for Evil Dragons.

I agree it's an odd structure that doesn't really make a ton of sense(I think Funimation was close with their changing the start of the Baby arc to be #17, but I'd place it one episode earlier, that was the Black-Star arc sort of "Finishes" with the desert planet stuff with Pan. It means the arc essentially ends with one final self-contained episode before we get into M-2, and Baby starts to come around), but probably best to stick with the official numberings.

[Bullza]

Are you saying the story is bad or do you literally mean there is no story?

Well no not literally, close though. There was nothing to what was going on. The Shadow Dragons formed, spread out and then Goku and Pan just went from one to the next until they defeat them all. That's all it really was, a string of fights. There was a paper thin consequence of there being some negative energy spreading around just to justify what was happening.

Pan is the best part of this saga to me and her lack in Baby saga is the biggest downside of that arc

Why were you so angry with your response? Well anyway Pan is surely the worst Dragon Ball character ever produced, the only character who can actually make the series as a whole go downhill whenever she's around. It still wouldn't be any good with out her but it'd be an improvement in the same way as the Baby Saga when she wasn't around as much.

Funny how you make it sound like DBZ being better than DB was a fact

I said nothing of the sort so that's silly.

Since when M-2 episodes are part of Baby saga?

M-2 was when Baby was introduced, it was the planet he was from.

Can't wait to see your definition of great villain if the only DB villain with motive and decent backstory + original design isn't great.

I also didn't say he was a great villain because he certainly isn't so that's twice you've tried to put words in my mouth.

Give me an examples of power scalling worse than DBS

Goku turns Super Saiyan for enemies like Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud but then is able to defeat Rilldo without transforming even though Rilldo is said to be incomparable from all those up till then.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku gets stomped by Baby whereas Majuub puts up a much better fight against a far stronger version of Baby. Yet later Majuub couldn't even hurt Super 17 after wailing away at him but Super Saiyan Goku can punch him half way around the Earth.

Even though Vegeta was considerably weaker than Goku throughout the whole show, Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta was confident he'd beat Syn Shenron whereas Super Saiyan 4 Goku could not and was only stronger after everyone pushed him far above his limits.

DBS feels like another DBZ saga

And that's exactly why it's considered much better. It just feels like more of Dragon Ball Z. GT never felt like Z, it tried to be like the original Dragon Ball and failed and then it tried to save itself by being more like Z but was a poor man's version of it.

[ABED]

You don't have to stay with the official numberings. There's no test and they dont make sense anyway. How could the Baby arc not begin when he's introduced?

GT's structure is interesting, but people don't watch for structure, they watch for story.

That's all it really was, a string of fights. There was a paper thin consequence of there being some negative energy spreading around just to justify what was happening.

Stories don't have to be complex to be a full story. The consequences if they fail is the extermination of all life on Earth.

[Robo4900]

DBS feels like another DBZ saga, not actual series.

I never got that sense from Super. At best, it felt like a poor man's DB during some of the filler. Outside of that, it always struck me as a series trying to imitate the series people seem to pretend Dragon Ball Z was, instead of actually following up on the tone and style of the original.

GT never felt like Z, it tried to be like the original Dragon Ball and failed and then it tried to save itself by being more like Z but was a poor man's version of it.

It was never like Z. The reason it came into its own was because it finally stopped trying to recreate the magic of the previous runs, and did its own thing in its own style, something Super still has yet to do, which is a lot of why I give it so much credit for doing what it did, despite the fact that ultimately it's merely an okay show.

That's all it really was, a string of fights. There was a paper thin consequence of there being some negative energy spreading around just to justify what was happening.

Y'know, this is the funniest thing here... This is always how I saw Super, and GT avoiding this trap is exactly why I like it.
Rather than just being "oh now we have to fight this guy. oh now we have to fight this guy. oh now we have to fight this guy. sorry, i think i might have spilled some characterisation on the last fight, won't happen again. now here's an even longer, even more bloated and unnecessary fight to end the arc." like Super was, GT took its time to actually do stuff with the characters and such. Rather than the show being constructed around certain fights being able to happen, and certain characters getting thrown together, GT was plotted a certain way which lead to certain fights and interactions happening as a method through which to tell the story.
There are pros and cons to writing character-driven vs plot-driven, and both are fine ways to write something, but Super's problem is that the characterisation within its character-driven plot is nonexistent. Meanwhile, GT is plot-driven, yet manages to get some really great characterisation in there. It tends to spotlight one or two characters at a time, and give them their proper time in the limelight, so you're able to get a really satisfying thing, meanwhile Super just throws everyone together and expects you to enjoy just seeing them hanging around, even though it means nothing as far as their character development or the overall narrative is concerned.

You don't have to stay with the official numberings. There's no test and they dont make sense anyway. How could the Baby arc not begin when he's introduced?

GT's structure is interesting, but people don't watch for structure, they watch for story.

Fair enough. Still, I think it's easier to refer to things in a standardised way so we all understand each-other and don't have to have a whole discussion about exactly where the arcs start and begin.

[ABED]

Good point about GT becoming its own thing. If the fights were better, that could make up for so much. While the fights were boring, Toei had the good sense to not have the fights drag for 10-20 episodes. The fight against Baby is just shy of 10. It's like 8 or 9 episodes long.

[PFM18]

The next time I watch it I'll watch it in japanese and I'll see if it changes things for me. The two times I watched it before were very difficult to get through it for me. I just think it is boring.

That said, I think the Baby Arc is REALLY good. Probably better than the Buu Arc in DBZ. Everything else is trash though.

[Robo4900]

Good point about GT becoming its own thing. If the fights were better, that could make up for so much. While the fights were boring, Toei had the good sense to not have the fights drag for 10-20 episodes. The fight against Baby is just shy of 10. It's like 8 or 9 episodes long.

Exactly. And a lot of time is spent doing stuff other than just having them up against each-other throwing punches and such.

Honestly, I've never really been that big a fan of fights in Dragon Ball. Watching Goku and Vegeta beat the crap out of each-other for 10 episodes sounds like utter torture to me, and I consider the weakest part of the Saiyan arc to be the parts where it's just the two of them coming to blows.
The thing that makes the fights good for me is when there's actually stuff going on; Vegeta fights Boo to give Goku a moment to regain his power, and during this short bout, Vegeta is just trying his absolute best to just survive and fight back for long enough. That really works for me; we're not just watching a couple of people punching each-other, we're watching someone fight a losing battle just so he can hold off this unstoppable force for just a moment. And naturally, that wears off eventually, because you can only get so much mileage out of it, but thankfully it doesn't actually last that long, so that bout is short but sweet, and IIRC it's immediately followed by the "You are No. 1" speech, which is pure brilliance, and caps off Vegeta's character arc in Z very nicely. A shame Super's never followed up on this, and that GT's following up on it was so subtle it was basically just a background detail until his spotlight in the rather annoying flashback episode. But, I digress...

So, in GT, you get Goku fighting Baby, but there's lots of interesting stuff going on in the fight; Goku runs out of power, and needs to bluff, Baby turns into an ape, etc.
I do think the Baby fight is a bit too long, in fact I think most fights in Dragon Ball go on too long -- early Dragon Ball got it right, with the tournament arcs being a perfect example, where each fight would last an episode, maybe an episode and a half, and in that time, the entirety of the creative and interesting things that can be done in the fight are explored, then the winner usually solves the puzzle of how to overcome the opponent's fun gimmick, and the fight is over basically immediately. Plenty of meaty goodness in the fight to keep it interesting beyond just "oh now they're punching each-other. oh now they're punching each-other but faster. oh now one of them is even faster. and now one of them is glowing a new colour."

Ultimately, yeah, GT's fights aren't particularly well-choreographed or pretty, but really, there aren't many big fights in GT anyway, so it's never that big of a problem as far as I'm concerned; the Baby fight is the only really long one, all the rest are rather short bouts like Goku vs Redjic, or the fights with the Evil Dragons. Yi Xing Long is kind of in the middle-ground between the two in terms of length, but it's broken up into lots of smaller things; Goku vs Yi Xing Long, Gogeta vs Yi Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku vs Yi Xing Long, etc. So, it's varied enough that it nearly justifies its length. Nearly. It is still just a tad too long, but it's to a lesser extent than I'd say that for most fights in Dragon Ball. And as I have noted before, it kind of follows the formula set out by the old tournament arcs: Lots of smaller fights where each opponent has a fun gimmick to overcome, then it ultimately culminates in one big longer, climactic fight to cap things off. So, I quite appreciate that; it sort of makes the whole arc a fun throwback to the old tournament arcs in a fairly subtle and really neat way that doesn't carry any of the baggage of actually doing a tournament arc at this point in the story.

The next time I watch it I'll watch it in japanese and I'll see if it changes things for me. The two times I watched it before were very difficult to get through it for me. I just think it is boring.

That said, I think the Baby Arc is REALLY good. Probably better than the Buu Arc in DBZ. Everything else is trash though.

The sub really does improve it. It's not something that'll turn the show into solid gold, but it improves the show, and the vibe the show's supposed to evoke is a lot clearer, which makes it more enjoyable.

Honestly, I'm not a massive fan of the Baby arc. It's okay, but I prefer the Evil Dragons arc. Love the stuff on M-2 aswell, though. And actually I really like the stuff on Imegga.

[sunsetshimmer]

Why were you so angry with your response?

I wasn't?

Pan is surely the worst Dragon Ball character ever produced

*Best character

M-2 was when Baby was introduced, it was the planet he was from.

And since when Baby was introduced on M-2 lmao? Are you sure you actually watched GT?
Everything that happened on M-2 was part of Black Star saga except for beginning of EP23 (start of Baby saga) where they leave planet.

I also didn't say he was a great villain

And when did i say you did lol? Funny how you are blaming me for something you just did.

Goku turns Super Saiyan for enemies like Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud but then is able to defeat Rilldo without transforming even though Rilldo is said to be incomparable from all those up till then.

Goku simply got stronger in all those months. Ledgic was nowhere near Rildo. And Goku was about equal to Ledgic as well. He just asked him to stop holding back so he turned SSJ and trashed him. Mutchy had long range and speed. He wasn't strong because Trunks SSJ easily killed him. Sigma Force had all data about Goku that was obsolete at this point.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku gets stomped by Baby whereas Majuub puts up a much better fight against a far stronger version of Baby. Yet later Majuub couldn't even hurt Super 17 after wailing away at him but Super Saiyan Goku can punch him half way around the Earth.

Because Goku got stronger in another year? And why do you think Super 17 really got hurt from that considering he blocked next punch and EVERY next move easily? Next punch seemed to hurt him but it turned out he just faked it and blocked Goku's fist saying his level is disappointing. I agree that Majuub shouldn't be reduced to this but other than that there are no big issues here.

Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta was confident he'd beat Syn Shenron

Stop making fake quotes. He never said anything like that. Goku said it, not Vegeta.

And that's exactly why it's considered much better.

Of course. Because DBZ was always overrated and most popular so DBS doesn't even try to look as something different than DBZ.
Blaming GT for not feeling like DBZ is the most sad argument you could give. Yeah, let's blame GT for being Dragon Ball GT and not Dragon Ball Z 2.

The next time I watch it I'll watch it in japanese and I'll see if it changes things for me. The two times I watched it before were very difficult to get through it for me. I just think it is boring.

That said, I think the Baby Arc is REALLY good. Probably better than the Buu Arc in DBZ. Everything else is trash though.

English version of GT is trash and i say it as fan of dubbed DBZ.

I don't know why, but Buu saga is pretty underrated. I mean Baby and Buu sagas are my two favorite arcs, but in top DB sagas list i very often see Baby saga and even Shadow Dragons sagas higher than Buu saga.

It's not a good comparison. The Baby arc arguably begins before even M-2 when we're first introduced to the Para Para brothers who are working for Dolltaki who is working for Dr. Mu who we find out was created by Baby. Even if you don't agree, how does the Baby arc not begin even after he's introduced? The first time we see him is 22. There is not really a Black Star DB arc. An arc requires there to be a beginning, middle, climax, and an end. The Black Star DB "arc" doesn't have a climax nor end.

Those two sagas are just connected. And Baby's appearance as well as Giru proving that he is a friend work as conclusion.
The reason why Baby saga starts from EP23 is that it's when Baby himself take control of everything and when he starts his own plan.
Before that, even on M-2, the main goal of villains was to get dragon balls which fits well with this saga being "Black Star Dragon Ball" saga because it's time where both protagonists and antagonists look for them.