Your Personal Canon

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RandomGuy96
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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:04 pm

I love that there are now three mutually contradictory, equally Toriyama-approved versions of how Goku met Beerus. Maybe now people will stop getting so hung up on "canon." For me, I'd say:

-Bardock special.
-Jaco the Galactic Patrolman.
-Dragon Ball manga, 42 volumes including the kanzenban ending.
-Movies 1 (Garlic Jr.), 5 (Cooler), 9 (Bojack), 13 (Hildegarn), and 14 (Beerus).
-Certain bits of anime-only content, such as Gohan's training in the Saiyan arc, the Otherworld Tournament, Gregory, the Buu Kaioshin flashback, and Vegeta traveling in space in the Android arc.
-2008 Jump special.
-Super manga (I suppose excepting the contradictory BOG stuff)
-Certain bits of the Super anime (e.g. baseball episode).
-Xenoverse series.
-Official guidebooks related to any of the above.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Bullza » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:19 pm

It's very difficult to say now. You have three different versions of the same story. I wouldn't say any one of them in particular is specifically canon, just the over all story in general.

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F should be the most canon version of that story as it was written by Toriyama himself.

The Dragon Ball Super anime clearly shares the same continuity and is a sequel to Dragon Ball Z Kai and not Dragon Ball Z which is strange in itself.

It retells the two movies and then continues with the new stories that are in continuity with the previous sagas as opposed to the movies.

And now you have Toriyama writing another movie which will be acting as a continuation of the Super anime which has filler characters that weren't in the manga. So none of it is straight forward but probably the best way to look at it is to say.

1. Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

2. Dragon Ball Minus

3. Dragon Ball Volume 1-16

4. Dragon Ball Volume 17-42 / Dragon Ball Z Kai

5. Dragon Ball Super Anime

6. Dragon Ball Super: Broly

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Forte224 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:23 pm

Bullza wrote:It's very difficult to say now. You have three different versions of the same story. I wouldn't say any one of them in particular is specifically canon, just the over all story in general.

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F should be the most canon version of that story as it was written by Toriyama himself.

The Dragon Ball Super anime clearly shares the same continuity and is a sequel to Dragon Ball Z Kai and not Dragon Ball Z which is strange in itself.

It retells the two movies and then continues with the new stories that are in continuity with the previous sagas as opposed to the movies.

And now you have Toriyama writing another movie which will be acting as a continuation of the Super anime which has filler characters that weren't in the manga. So none of it is straight forward but probably the best way to look at it is to say.

1. Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

2. Dragon Ball Minus

3. Dragon Ball Volume 1-16

4. Dragon Ball Volume 17-42 / Dragon Ball Z Kai

5. Dragon Ball Super Anime

6. Dragon Ball Super: Broly
How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:22 pm

Bullza wrote: Battle of Gods and Resurrection F should be the most canon version of that story as it was written by Toriyama himself.
If you're going to be a purist, only the scripts should be canon. Most of the movies themselves consist of original content, as the scripts were "just a memo" that Toei had to work with. For example, pretty much every action scene is entirely Toei's work.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -comments/
It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo. It’s simply something I idly dashed off for the staff, just to help explain the flow of the story and the dialogue! Never in a million years did I think it would get published. If any of you are trying to become scriptwriters, please don’t use this as an example!!
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:27 pm

Kanzeban manga + Bardock: Father of Goku + DBS Manga
Battle Powers List (Manga)

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pm

Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
If I were to take a guess, I'd say that it's because when Super flashes back to Z content, it's the Kai version specifically. What makes that complicated though is that certain filler episodes directly refer to content that only appears in the original Z, such as Yamcha being a baseball player. That implies that it's a continuation of Z and not Kai... unless you take it's inclusion to be more of a mythology gag to Z but still a continuation of Kai...

This is why people bring up personal canon, because this shit gets confusing to sort out and everyone has a different approach based on their tastes and preferences.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Forte224 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:50 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
If I were to take a guess, I'd say that it's because when Super flashes back to Z content, it's the Kai version specifically. What makes that complicated though is that certain filler episodes directly refer to content that only appears in the original Z, such as Yamcha being a baseball player. That implies that it's a continuation of Z and not Kai... unless you take it's inclusion to be more of a mythology gag to Z but still a continuation of Kai...

This is why people bring up personal canon, because this shit gets confusing to sort out and everyone has a different approach based on their tastes and preferences.
Yeah, using Kai footage is nowhere near enough evidence to say it's specifically a continuation of Kai. If that were the case, the scene with Freeza, Cell, etc watching Goku vs Boo would make no sense at all since in Super we see where Freeza really is. Not that it matters, I just found it funny that he decided to say it was clearly a continuation of Kai when that makes no sense.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:57 pm

Forte224 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
If I were to take a guess, I'd say that it's because when Super flashes back to Z content, it's the Kai version specifically. What makes that complicated though is that certain filler episodes directly refer to content that only appears in the original Z, such as Yamcha being a baseball player. That implies that it's a continuation of Z and not Kai... unless you take it's inclusion to be more of a mythology gag to Z but still a continuation of Kai...

This is why people bring up personal canon, because this shit gets confusing to sort out and everyone has a different approach based on their tastes and preferences.
Yeah, using Kai footage is nowhere near enough evidence to say it's specifically a continuation of Kai. If that were the case, the scene with Freeza, Cell, etc watching Goku vs Boo would make no sense at all since in Super we see where Freeza really is. Not that it matters, I just found it funny that he decided to say it was clearly a continuation of Kai when that makes no sense.
Personally I can kinda see the logic to it, plus you get to say that GT continues from Z and Super continues from Kai, but like anything regarding Dragon Ball canon it isn't as simple as that!

The scene with Frieza and Cell in hell makes no sense I agree, but the mistake kinda makes sense since TFC started a full month before RoF was even teased.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Bullza » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:20 am

Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
Well Super pulls from Kai's filler. Gregory and Miss Piza who are in Kai are also in Super. The whole subplot involving Bulma, Captain Ginyu as a Frog and him ending up on Earth is a thing in Super.

On the other hand filler that was in Z that wasn't in Kai isn't referred to. When Goku used Kaioken with the Super Saiyan Blue, the Elder Kai commented on how it couldn't have been done with the other Super Saiyan forms and it's why Goku hasn't used it in a very long time even though he did use it with Super Saiyan when he fought Pikkon.

Of course characters like Pikkon, Olibu and the Grand Kai are never shown or even referred to at all even when they were trying to find powerful fighters for the Tournament.

It would make sense because Super aired directly after Kai and is what the kids would be familiar with which is probably why they didn't refer to anything from Z's filler.

At least from what I can recall anyway.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:30 am

Bullza wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
Well Super pulls from Kai's filler. Gregory and Miss Piza who are in Kai are also in Super. The whole subplot involving Bulma, Captain Ginyu as a Frog and him ending up on Earth is a thing in Super.

On the other hand filler that was in Z that wasn't in Kai isn't referred to. When Goku used Kaioken with the Super Saiyan Blue, the Elder Kai commented on how it couldn't have been done with the other Super Saiyan forms and it's why Goku hasn't used it in a very long time even though he did use it with Super Saiyan when he fought Pikkon.

Of course characters like Pikkon, Olibu and the Grand Kai are never shown or even referred to at all even when they were trying to find powerful fighters for the Tournament.

It would make sense because Super aired directly after Kai and is what the kids would be familiar with which is probably why they didn't refer to anything from Z's filler.

At least from what I can recall anyway.
Seeing how the upcoming movie involves scenes from DB Minus, Bardock's special becomes filler, it was used at the very beginning of Kai, and then there's the filler with Freeza watching Buu's fight with the rest of the guys in hell while in Super he's hanging under a tree all the time. It's really as much of a continuation to Z as it is to Kai since in reality it's the same thing, one's just a little trimmed.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by KBABZ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:50 am

Bullza wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
Well Super pulls from Kai's filler. Gregory and Miss Piza who are in Kai are also in Super. The whole subplot involving Bulma, Captain Ginyu as a Frog and him ending up on Earth is a thing in Super.

On the other hand filler that was in Z that wasn't in Kai isn't referred to. When Goku used Kaioken with the Super Saiyan Blue, the Elder Kai commented on how it couldn't have been done with the other Super Saiyan forms and it's why Goku hasn't used it in a very long time even though he did use it with Super Saiyan when he fought Pikkon.

Of course characters like Pikkon, Olibu and the Grand Kai are never shown or even referred to at all even when they were trying to find powerful fighters for the Tournament.

It would make sense because Super aired directly after Kai and is what the kids would be familiar with which is probably why they didn't refer to anything from Z's filler.

At least from what I can recall anyway.
And Yamcha playing baseball?

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Bullza » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:56 am

Wasn't that a Toriyama idea anyway? That could still be a thing I suppose.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by KBABZ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:58 am

Bullza wrote:Wasn't that a Toriyama idea anyway? That could still be a thing I suppose.
It was, but my point was that the Baseball filler wasn't in Kai at all, that was only in the original Z, but it's referenced in Super.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Bullza » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:22 am

KBABZ wrote:It was, but my point was that the Baseball filler wasn't in Kai at all, that was only in the original Z, but it's referenced in Super.
Was it directly referenced to?

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by KBABZ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:44 am

Bullza wrote:
KBABZ wrote:It was, but my point was that the Baseball filler wasn't in Kai at all, that was only in the original Z, but it's referenced in Super.
Was it directly referenced to?
Wasn't there a filler episode in Super where he returns to baseball?

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Bullza » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:21 am

KBABZ wrote:Wasn't there a filler episode in Super where he returns to baseball?
There was an episode where he plays Baseball and it may have been implied he had an history with it but I'm not sure how much it was alluded to the past.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by simtek34 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:30 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
Well Super pulls from Kai's filler. Gregory and Miss Piza who are in Kai are also in Super. The whole subplot involving Bulma, Captain Ginyu as a Frog and him ending up on Earth is a thing in Super.

On the other hand filler that was in Z that wasn't in Kai isn't referred to. When Goku used Kaioken with the Super Saiyan Blue, the Elder Kai commented on how it couldn't have been done with the other Super Saiyan forms and it's why Goku hasn't used it in a very long time even though he did use it with Super Saiyan when he fought Pikkon.

Of course characters like Pikkon, Olibu and the Grand Kai are never shown or even referred to at all even when they were trying to find powerful fighters for the Tournament.

It would make sense because Super aired directly after Kai and is what the kids would be familiar with which is probably why they didn't refer to anything from Z's filler.

At least from what I can recall anyway.
Seeing how the upcoming movie involves scenes from DB Minus, Bardock's special becomes filler, it was used at the very beginning of Kai, and then there's the filler with Freeza watching Buu's fight with the rest of the guys in hell while in Super he's hanging under a tree all the time. It's really as much of a continuation to Z as it is to Kai since in reality it's the same thing, one's just a little trimmed.
The scene of Burdock facing off against Freeza was in the Manga. There is a month in between when Burdock and Gine send Kakarrot to Earth and when Freeza destroys the planet, so it is plausible that the Special still could happen.
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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:36 pm

simtek34 wrote: The scene of Burdock facing off against Freeza was in the Manga. There is a month in between when Burdock and Gine send Kakarrot to Earth and when Freeza destroys the planet, so it is plausible that the Special still could happen.
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They show Kakarrot leaving the planet during the destruction of the planet too.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by simtek34 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
simtek34 wrote: The scene of Burdock facing off against Freeza was in the Manga. There is a month in between when Burdock and Gine send Kakarrot to Earth and when Freeza destroys the planet, so it is plausible that the Special still could happen.
Image
They show Kakarrot leaving the planet during the destruction of the planet too.
Oh. Forgot that part of the episode.

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Re: Your Personal Canon

Post by Forte224 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:00 pm

Bullza wrote:
Forte224 wrote:How is Super specifically a continuation of Kai but not Z?
Well Super pulls from Kai's filler. Gregory and Miss Piza who are in Kai are also in Super. The whole subplot involving Bulma, Captain Ginyu as a Frog and him ending up on Earth is a thing in Super.

On the other hand filler that was in Z that wasn't in Kai isn't referred to. When Goku used Kaioken with the Super Saiyan Blue, the Elder Kai commented on how it couldn't have been done with the other Super Saiyan forms and it's why Goku hasn't used it in a very long time even though he did use it with Super Saiyan when he fought Pikkon.

Of course characters like Pikkon, Olibu and the Grand Kai are never shown or even referred to at all even when they were trying to find powerful fighters for the Tournament.

It would make sense because Super aired directly after Kai and is what the kids would be familiar with which is probably why they didn't refer to anything from Z's filler.

At least from what I can recall anyway.
That...actually makes sense. Fair enough.

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