Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

it is an opinion that you cannot just declare to be wrong. Furthermore, in my opinion, they are completely different.

I can and I will. Are there world ending stakes at the end of DB or not? Is the end of DB as comedic as the beginning or not?

Just to be clear: There are plenty of fans that feel that way. You can't say that all of their opinions are wrong. It's a feeling not fact. It's clearly not wrong because lots of people feel it. So... I dont' know where you're coming from.

Sailor Moon also has world-ending stakes and comedy, but I wouldn't say it's just like Dragon Ball. Like... I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. You're arguing feelings and because you feel one thing, you're saying that others' feelings are "verifiably wrong." I'm not getting it. But whatever. As long as you keep that mindset, then yeah, you'll never understand why others could like Dragon Ball Z but not Dragon Ball. It's not that you can't understand, it's that you just don't want to accept the fact that not everyone shares your feelings.

I'm not arguing feelings. I'm arguing tone, which while not quantifiable, you can clearly see is different between the beginning and end. The Pilaf arc is a gag manga. Kuririn's killed at the end of the 22nd TB and Goku is on a mission of revenge as Piccolo sets out to murder anyone who stands in his way. That darkness pervades the entire are.

Maybe I'm not being clear, but I'm not arguing which series anyone should prefer. I'm arguing that Z is NOT radically different from DB. If you think that, then I suggest you actually reread my comments. You wouldn't have to go that far because I don't know what statement leads you to believe I'm saying you should like DB more than DBZ.

You claiming DB is DBZ like but only at the very end is verifiably wrong. The last third of the series has A LOT in common. That's not the tail end.

[sintzu]

Gaffer Tape brings up a very good point I never thought of which not only applies to DB but a lot of things such as the example he mentioned in Star wars. Ifyou start something in the middle where things are at an all time high then going back isn't going to be easy. Take GTA as another example, if you just started playing it with IV then good luck trying to go back to the older, classic ps2 era games. I never played San Andreas but decided to go back after playing V and could never get into it. Yeah I get why it's so popular cause back then it was the best thing ever but thanks to me playing what came after first I can never experience what everyone else experienced back in 2004.

[TheGreatness25]

And I don't know what statements leads you to believe that I think that you think that others should like DB more than DBZ. But whatever, this is going nowhere. Lots of people don't think that Z feels like DB and that's what they don't like about DB. That's it.

[Lord Beerus]

Because they're idiots. I hate to sound like an asshole, but that's the truth. Who in their right mind would voluntarily decide to skip out on nearly HALF of story? And on top of that, debatably, the better half of the story?

They're idiots for not preferring something? Yeah that does make you an asshole, no offense.

It's not a matter of preference -- it's the fact you're skipping nearly half the story, and still believing you're getting the most out of Dragon Ball when you're absolutely not.

Are there shifts in the tone of the story and time skips in the narrative? Yes. But they occur across the story and don't abritatrily happen in grand significance when the Saiyan arc kicks into high gear.

I mean, part of what makes the Saiyan arc fantastic is having the knowledge of what came before it. The idea of Piccolo and Goku teaming up, the reveal of Goku being alien, Piccolo bonding with Gohan, and guys like Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Kami dying carry much less poignancy, drama and emotional resonance when you aren't aware of the journey's and development those characters go through before Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa appear.

Dragon Ball is one story, despite how the anime may want to create some differentiation by throwing in a "Z" at the end of the anime that covers the Saiyan arc and beyond portions of the manga. The events of the fist anime still naturally flow into what happens five years in-universe. So I don't see any justification to say that you can prefer to watch Dragon Ball Z and refuse to watch Dragon Ball, when at its core, it's same story.

[ABED]

And I don't know what statements leads you to believe that I think that you think that others should like DB more than DBZ. But whatever, this is going nowhere. Lots of people don't think that Z feels like DB and that's what they don't like about DB. That's it.

I never believed that. Please stop arguing against a point I never made. The issue is whether DB is different than Z, not which is better.

Lord Beerus just made the same points I did, perhaps better, but still the same points.

[TheGreatness25]

And I don't know what statements leads you to believe that I think that you think that others should like DB more than DBZ. But whatever, this is going nowhere. Lots of people don't think that Z feels like DB and that's what they don't like about DB. That's it.

I never believed that. Please stop arguing against a point I never made. The issue is whether DB is different than Z, not which is better.

Lord Beerus just made the same points I did, perhaps better, but still the same points.

Whew, boy...

You wouldn't have to go that far because I don't know what statement leads you to believe I'm saying you should like DB more than DBZ.

I was responding to this little nugget you put in. I have no idea where you got that I believe that you're saying I should like DB more than DBZ.

The only point I'm arguing is solidifying my position that DB and Z feel different. All the other stuff is just a bunch of walls of text. They do feel different becaue they are. And that's about all I have to say.

[Forte224]

Honestly, I'm more concerned with why a lot of people I know marathon Super in like a couple weeks but refuse to go back and watch any of the original material. They call the old stuff boring but enjoy Super. I guess it's paced similarly to modern anime and it has triumphant moments with triumphant music like other modern anime and that's all people are looking for? I dunno.

But, here's my theory for why Z fans refuse to watch DB. It's because they don't even watch Z. It's what they grew up with on Toonami, they caught most of the episodes, declared themselves huge Z fans, but they can't be bothered to watch it again. And if they can't watch their proclaimed "favorite show ever" again, why would they watch the show they only bothered with a few times on Toonami and got bored with when there were no scouters or super saiyans?

Bit of a generalization, but I genuinely feel that a huge, huge chunk of "hardcore Z fans" haven't actually watched it in over a decade, outside of maybe part of the Saiyan arc when the OBs, blu rays first started coming out.

[ABED]

And I don't know what statements leads you to believe that I think that you think that others should like DB more than DBZ. But whatever, this is going nowhere. Lots of people don't think that Z feels like DB and that's what they don't like about DB. That's it.

I never believed that. Please stop arguing against a point I never made. The issue is whether DB is different than Z, not which is better.

Lord Beerus just made the same points I did, perhaps better, but still the same points.

Whew, boy...

You wouldn't have to go that far because I don't know what statement leads you to believe I'm saying you should like DB more than DBZ.

I was responding to this little nugget you put in. I have no idea where you got that I believe that you're saying I should like DB more than DBZ.

The only point I'm arguing is solidifying my position that DB and Z feel different. All the other stuff is just a bunch of walls of text. They do feel different becaue they are. And that's about all I have to say.

"As long as you keep that mindset, then yeah, you'll never understand why others could like Dragon Ball Z but not Dragon Ball." Is the kind of statement that leads me to think you're arguing about preference for one series over the other. I'm not. I'm saying anyone who claims DB and DBZ are different is wrong because they are. Many of the elements you talk about being in Z started earlier and no not at the tail end. The changes you make are a few in a long line of changes over the course of DB. That fact is a bit of much needed context in this discussion.

Given how ignorant (for lack of a better word) many people are about these sorts of issues (e.g. people's lack of understanding about the distinction between reboots and revivals, aspect ratios, etc.) it wouldn't surprise me in the least if DBZ fans viewed DB as a prequel series.

[KBABZ]

My point about video games is that it's not nearly as much about the story as it is the gameplay.

That kinda of depends on the game. Mass Effect very much emphasizes its story, while a game like Burnout has absolutely none. Metal Gear is a pretty good example of a story that is so continuity-heavy that you'd have to be crazy to try and get yourself into the story without prior research. And there are games which focus almost entirely on story!

[ABED]

If the game is focused entirely on story, why make it a game? For the player at its core, it's about gameplay, even continuity heavy games. I love a good story regardless of medium, but I'm far more concerned about taking out the enemy with my sniper rifle than I am in following the narrative. Movies, TV shows, novels are all about narrative. It's not audience participation.

[Robo4900]

Gaffer Tape brings up a very good point I never thought of which not only applies to DB but a lot of things such as the example he mentioned in Star wars. Ifyou start something in the middle where things are at an all time high then going back isn't going to be easy. Take GTA as another example, if you just started playing it with IV then good luck trying to go back to the older, classic ps2 era games. I never played San Andreas but decided to go back after playing V and could never get into it. Yeah I get why it's so popular cause back then it was the best thing ever but thanks to me playing what came after first I can never experience what everyone else experienced back in 2004.

Yeah, that is an issue. The problem is, you are starting from the beginning of the run with OG Dragon Ball. Watching Z is like skipping to season 5 of Next Gen; you're starting when the show was at its height, and going back to the beginning can make it difficult to get into, but by refusing to give those earlier seasons a chance, you're missing out an all the classic contents of seasons 2-4, and the nuggets of pure gold from season 1.
(Though TNG's first season was actually pretty bad, so... Perhaps it's more like Buffy The Vampire Slayer or Angel...?)

I think a lot of the anti-DB fans would find a much easier time with this if they committed themselves to not giving up until they're well into the Red Ribbon arc. By that time, the show had established its style, was really twisting itself around with clever subversions of your expectations, and had become something that those more familiar with Z could more easily identify as being Dragon Ball.
My general advice to newcomers tends to be "Watch the first 28 episodes before making judgements. If you're on the fence and can't really decide at that point, continue on a bit further." for this reason(Although usually, I phrase it more like "Pick up the Season 1 DVD box set, and don't judge it until you've finished the season", since the UK Season 1 box set is episodes 1-28, and the USA one is 1-31). Ultimately, as much as the 21st Tenkaichi is my favourite arc in the franchise, and the Pilaf arc is a really solid arc full of a lot of really fun moments, it's all very weird and slightly hard to get into if you're not used to it, so you really need to stick with it for some time if you're unsure, or just aren't connecting with it quite yet.

Thing about pre-Red Ribbon Dragon Ball is that the stories are very small-scale; just a few characters getting into some kind of situation involving just a few of them, often with some kind of crazy weird fantasy/sci-fi twist that makes it really goofy and interesting. When Red Ribbon comes along, it goes on a much larger scale, as the Red Ribbon Army is a worldwide organisation running in opposition to Goku, which can gel a lot better if you're used to aliens trying to destroy the planet, distant worlds where alien dictators are seeking to conquer all life in the universe, evil cyborgs trying to destroy the planet, or big genie monsters killing everyone.
A worldwide organisation bent on finding the Dragon Balls is much more in-line with this kind of story than an incompetent idiot and his two cronies trying(And constantly failing) to take over the world with the Dragon Balls, or Roshi giving Kuririn and Goku a Karate Kid-style training regime, leading to a tournament where the only real ongoing story is about the whole "Jackie Chun" situation, which ends up being entirely a character-based thing revolving around the final fight, as much as I love these two arcs, and the more villain-centric style of the stories of the Red Ribbon, 22nd Tenkaichi, Piccolo, and 23rd Tenkaichi arcs are just much more accessible for fans who are more familiar with Z.

[ABED]

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

[sintzu]

My general advice to newcomers tends to be "Watch the first 28 episodes before making judgements. If you're on the fence and can't really decide at that point, continue on a bit further."

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

Episodes 14-28 are pure gold. I honestly don't know how a DB fan (or a fan of anything fun) can watch those episodes and not enjoy them. The first 13 are also good but like Toriyama said, it was those episodes where DB really took off, both financially and critically.

[Robo4900]

My general advice to newcomers tends to be "Watch the first 28 episodes before making judgements. If you're on the fence and can't really decide at that point, continue on a bit further."

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

Episodes 14-28 are pure gold. I honestly don't know how a DB fan (or a fan of anything fun) can watch those episodes and not enjoy them. The first 13 are also good but like Toriyama said, it was those episodes where DB really took off, both financially and critically.

14-28 are indeed pure gold. But, as I say, they're not the villain-centric type of stories Z fans would be familiar with. The advice of trying the 22nd Tenkaichi is not a bad idea, but I think Red Ribbon is the place to direct Z fans to aim for(And, as I say, I think it should be more of a "Watch the first X episodes" approach). When you start to get the parts where Goku faces off against individual generals, mercenaries, etc(Silver, White, Murasaki, Blue, Tao Pai-Pai), that's kind of what sewed the seeds for the more villain-centric approach pretty much the entire rest of the franchise from that point on would do, and I think that's the point when Z-only fans would start to turn onto the show, if the 21st Tenkaichi didn't already have that effect.

[majinwarman]

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

I think that it is fine advice though I wouldn't like to skip episodes that are crucial to the story of the series.

[Robo4900]

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

I think that it is fine advice though I wouldn't like to skip episodes that are crucial to the story of the series.

I mean, given how most events in the early arcs tend to be built on in some way later on, and how the Red Ribbon arc had a direct sequel in the Cell arc(Which, at least in the original Z anime, even included the return of Tao Pai-Pai himself briefly), you're always going to miss important stuff if you skip material.

[ABED]

As much as I don't like suggesting people skip over large portions of the story, if they don't like the first 28 episodes, then skip to the 22nd TB or at least the Piccolo Daimao arc if they want something more familiar.

I think that it is fine advice though I wouldn't like to skip episodes that are crucial to the story of the series.

I mean, given how most events in the early arcs tend to be built on in some way later on, and how the Red Ribbon arc had a direct sequel in the Cell arc(Which, at least in the original Z anime, even included the return of Tao Pai-Pai himself briefly), you're always going to miss important stuff if you skip material.

I know, but apparently there are plenty of fans that are fine with it seeing as how they started 1/3 of the way through the story.

[JEFFMAN219]

Because they're idiots. I hate to sound like an asshole, but that's the truth. Who in their right mind would voluntarily decide to skip out on nearly HALF of story? And on top of that, debatably, the better half of the story?

Sad but true. I don't understand why DB is so underappreciated by the majority of the fan-base. In my opinion the story and character development was better in DB then it was in Z.

[Robo4900]

I don't understand why DB is so underappreciated by the majority of the fan-base. In my opinion the story and character development was better in DB then it was in Z.

Plus, the anime adaptation of the DB part of the story is so much better than the anime adaptation of the Z part of the story. DB's filler was meh at worst, but generally ranged from decent to great. Z's filler ranged from god-awful abomination to pretty good, with a few stand-out great episodes, but because the filler wasn't enough to hold them back from catching up to the manga, Z was massively padded out and given pretty awful pacing in several areas, which makes the Freeza arc in general a real grind.
It kind of works in the Saiyan arc, since you feel the exhaustion the fighters are going through, and I think the slow pacing of that whole part adds to the story, but basically the moment they set off for Namek, I find the pacing to just be such a drag. This is in stark contrast to DB, which never really dragged at all, and in fact the additions made for the anime there were often of great benefit to the story(The explanation of the Dragon Balls being a cutaway to the Pilaf gang was an anime addition, which I consider to be one of many things that elevates at least that early part of the first arc above the manga. Though, I've only read the first few chapters of the manga, so I can't really comment beyond that, unfortunately). One fun addition that some people like to criticise unfairly was Roshi explaining the alternate origin of the Dragon Balls(The origin about the one big Dragon Ball, which had Dragon Ball Densetsu playing over it), which I think is a really neat way of expanding the mythology of the world. Of course, it turned out to be not true at all, but it's neat to know these myths exist.

I know, but apparently there are plenty of fans that are fine with it seeing as how they started 1/3 of the way through the story.

Exactly. And I'm trying to suggest a remedy for that, not just a way to move the problem forward.

[ABED]

Exactly. And I'm trying to suggest a remedy for that, not just a way to move the problem forward

If the solution doesn't work, all I'm suggesting is they watch something closer to what they are familiar with.