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They were terrible in context. At least "where balls are born" is funny out of context.Ssjcell wrote: Most of those lines were good in context
That doesn't make it a good line. Why are Goku and Frieza acting like 8-year olds on the playground? Why does Goku feel the need to proclaim that he doesn't wear shoe laces?... Frieza was making fun of Goku who proves he wasn't gonna fall for that
Cringe speech was cringeAlly to good nightmare to you , Imo great line
It really doesn't take any effort to refrain from stuff like name calling and mindless bashing. It's called not being a jerk and isn't half as difficult as people pretend. If someone has an ounce of maturity then discussing another version of the show to the one you like in a respectable manner is as easy as breathing.Majin Buu wrote:In my experience, it takes a lot of effort on both sides to ensure that those discussions don't devolve into flame fests or in general create any animosity. It's an inherently divisive issue because both sides are passionate about their preferred version. My point is that most of this divisiveness wouldn't exist with a proper dub.90sDBZ wrote:You're missing my point. I never denied that the fanbase has been divisive and even sometimes outright toxic. I'm saying that those kinds of fans choose to act that way. Having different fans preferring different versions isn't inherently a bad thing. It's only a problem when a loud minority of people make it a problem by mindlessly hating on the other version and being jerks towards those who like it. I'll say this one more time; those fans choose to act that way and there's absolutely nothing forcing them too. It's perfectly possible to discuss the differences between the 2 versions without descending into madness.
The fact that all those fans were able to get so much joy from watching it is more than enough to justify its existence.
The fact that dub fans continuously try to argue that replacing the score was necessary for DBZ to be a success in America says otherwise.
Again, most of this wouldn't even be an issue with a proper dub since there would inherently be less differences between the versions to get heated about in the first place. The root cause of this divisiveness is the fact that the dub is a fundamentally different show from the original due to all the changes Funimation made to it. You seem determined to talk around this and act like it's all just people being assholes when that's just a symptom. Even when people aren't being assholes about it, at the end of the day we're still left with an American fandom that is severely fractured by being into two very different shows that happen to have the same name and same basic plot.90sDBZ wrote:It really doesn't take any effort to refrain from stuff like name calling and mindless bashing. It's called not being a jerk and isn't half as difficult as people pretend. If someone has an ounce of maturity then discussing another version of the show to the one you like in a respectable manner is as easy as breathing.
Using the dub as an excuse for people being assholes is the same as the old argument that horror movies turn perfectly normal people into murderers, or the mothers who tried to get DB banned from TV because it "poisons their children with violence". In other words you're pointing the blame in the wrong place and making all kinds of excuses instead of acknowledging the root of the problem, the individuals themselves. A bad egg is a bad egg to begin with and nothing to do with the dub.
And why beyond your own dislike of the dub shouldn't these discussions be happening in the first place? When you take the loud minority of jerks out of the equation you're left with fans who can discuss the differences in a civil way which is totally harmless and even makes for some interesting comparison.ABED wrote:it's simply that the discussions wouldn't/shouldn't exist.
Now you're essentially saying that anything that causes controversy shouldn't exist because it might upset a few people on the internet and "force" them to treat eachother in a way they wouldn't dream of doing beyond their keyboard. The reality is that there will always be disagreements on the internet and in the real world, and quite frankly it would be boring if it wasn't that way.Majin Buu wrote:Again, most of this wouldn't even be an issue with a proper dub since there would inherently be less differences between the versions to get heated about in the first place. The root cause of this divisiveness is the fact that the dub is a fundamentally different show from the original due to all the changes Funimation made to it. You seem determined to talk around this and act like it's all just people being assholes when that's just a symptom. Even when people aren't being assholes about it, at the end of the day we're still left with an American fandom that is severely fractured by being into two very different shows that happen to have the same name and same basic plot.
Even when you take the later, better dubs into account, American fans are going to be coming into them from different places depending on which version of Z they liked, which will inevitably color their perception of these later dubs, maintaining the fractured nature of the American fanbase.
And even in discussions where people aren't being outright dicks to each other, it tends to get pretty heated and can generate animosity; because again, the versions are fundamentally different and people are simply passionate about their preferred version.
We sort of got that with the Pioneer/Ocean dub of the 3 movies at least.ABED wrote:It shouldn't exist because the dub as it exists is god awful. They should've done a high quality dub with an accurate script, original music, and experienced voice actors.
This makes me wonder what Funimation would have done had there not been the Z split and it was all just “Dragon Ball”’for 444 episodes. Would they have deemed the show a failure and given up on it after the first 13? Would they have kept trucking through? Would they have skipped to the Saiyan saga anyways or just to something more action pack-y like the Red Ribbon army saga or the Piccolo Daimou saga?Hell, it's bad enough that Toei's splitting of DB in two lead to a misconception that DB and DBZ are so vastly different. Now we get people claiming it's so different that a radically different score is necessary
But all of these points are still your personal pet peeves and don't answer the question whether the fanbase as a whole would be better off if the dub never existed. "Issues" such as people seeing Goku as a superhero are only issues to a select minority of fans. Those who still watch the dub to this day are fine with it and even like it. When a dub fan and sub fan happen to discuss Goku's character all that's needed is "Oh he was different in the original? That's interesting I might check it out sometime". Problem solved.ABED wrote:It shouldn't exist because the dub as it exists is god awful. They should've done a high quality dub with an accurate script, original music, and experienced voice actors. Whatever misconceptions about the characterizations shouldn't be because the adaptation altered the characters personalities.
It's tiresome to hear misconceptions created due to artificial reasons. For instance, whether Goku is a superhero. Hell, it's bad enough that Toei's splitting of DB in two lead to a misconception that DB and DBZ are so vastly different. Now we get people claiming it's so different that a radically different score is neccessary.
It's one thing if any misconceptions occur because people see the same thing and reach a different conclusion. That's unavoidable and happens all the time. But misconceptions like Freeza and Goku's characterizations or even entire plot points can be easily avoided by sticking close to the source material.
Having a somewhat interesting discussion about the merits of the dub aren't worth the sacrifice in quality. I'd much rather have a quality dub that I enjoyed than even a civil discussion about whether Freeza is more frightening as an aristocratic dictator or a raspy old lady sounding villain that spouts non-sensical bad jokes.
It's not about agreement. It doesn't matter if we agree on whether DB or DBZ is better, but I don't like that people have been lead to believe Goku is Superman in a gi. That didn't have to happen. It was completely avoidable had the dub adhered to the original story.
Oh if only that were so. What would also have solved the problem is not making him into a superhero to begin with. The fanbase and DB itself is better off when the story is what it is and not forced to be something else.Problem solved.
Are you implying that people wouldn't have enjoyed an accurate dub just as much? What exactly are you trying to get from this conversation? The popularity of the dub isn't due to the dub, it's a testament to Dragon Ball. There is no damn way anyone could possibly truly believe that an objectively shoddily and cheaply produced dub would've been anyone's preference ex ante.I really don't think something millions of people have enjoyed should be removed from existence just because a select few don't approve of it. I say live and let live.
Too bad it’s more like90sDBZ wrote:[.
. When a dub fan and sub fan happen to discuss Goku's character all that's needed is "Oh he was different in the original? That's interesting I might check it out sometime". Problem solved.
I don’t think anyone, even Abed, is arguing for it to be removed from existence. It exist. It’s not going away.I really don't think something millions of people have enjoyed should be removed from existence just because a select few don't approve of it. I say live and let live.
We're in complete agreement. I also enjoy the Ocean dub in spite of its flaws.I do want to add while I agree with the fundamentals on what Abed is saying (they should have done a faithful dub from the beginning) I do enjoy the FuniSabanOcean dub for what it is in spite of it’s heavy heavy flaws.
Once again, you seem bound and determined to talk around the actual point I'm making in an effort to validate the dub.90sDBZ wrote:Now you're essentially saying that anything that causes controversy shouldn't exist because it might upset a few people on the internet and "force" them to treat eachother in a way they wouldn't dream of doing beyond their keyboard. The reality is that there will always be disagreements on the internet and in the real world, and quite frankly it would be boring if it wasn't that way.
I mean could you imagine a world where we all agreed on every little thing, all liked the same thing, and debate was totally unheard of? We would literally run out of stuff to talk about.
If a person truly can't cope with the idea of someone else disagreeing with them then maybe the internet isn't the best place for them to be.
At the end of the day the fans who choose to act like 12 year olds arguing on the playground are only a minority, and in my book that doesn't outweigh the joy the millions of fans got watching the old dub.
Both Abed and I have been telling you exactly why the American fanbase would have been better off with a better dub. You just don't want to acknowledge that a lot of the divisiveness surrounding the dub is the result of the dub being so fundamentally altered from the original (when it never needed to be).But all of these points are still your personal pet peeves and don't answer the question whether the fanbase as a whole would be better off if the dub never existed.
A world where the dub was accurate from the start can only ever be speculation no matter how you argue it. We can't ever know for sure whether the changes hurt or helped the overall success. Maybe they helped it, maybe they hurt it, or maybe the difference would be negligible. The dub we got was and still is a massive success. That's an undisputable fact which is much more relevant than any speculation either side could make.ABED wrote:Oh if only that were so. What would also have solved the problem is not making him into a superhero to begin with. The fanbase and DB itself is better off when the story is what it is and not forced to be something else.Problem solved.
Are you implying that people wouldn't have enjoyed an accurate dub just as much? What exactly are you trying to get from this conversation? The popularity of the dub isn't due to the dub, it's a testament to Dragon Ball. There is no damn way anyone could possibly truly believe that an objectively shoddily and cheaply produced dub would've been anyone's preference ex ante.I really don't think something millions of people have enjoyed should be removed from existence just because a select few don't approve of it. I say live and let live.
I'm talking about a world where the crappy dub we got never existed. You can't miss what was never there.
I already addressed your point. The number of people who enjoyed and still enjoy the dub far outweighs the number who go online looking for arguments. In other words the dub taken purely as is without any speculation made more people happy than it made angry.Majin Buu wrote:Once again, you seem bound and determined to talk around the actual point I'm making in an effort to validate the dub.90sDBZ wrote:Now you're essentially saying that anything that causes controversy shouldn't exist because it might upset a few people on the internet and "force" them to treat eachother in a way they wouldn't dream of doing beyond their keyboard. The reality is that there will always be disagreements on the internet and in the real world, and quite frankly it would be boring if it wasn't that way.
I mean could you imagine a world where we all agreed on every little thing, all liked the same thing, and debate was totally unheard of? We would literally run out of stuff to talk about.
If a person truly can't cope with the idea of someone else disagreeing with them then maybe the internet isn't the best place for them to be.
At the end of the day the fans who choose to act like 12 year olds arguing on the playground are only a minority, and in my book that doesn't outweigh the joy the millions of fans got watching the old dub.
Both Abed and I have been telling you exactly why the American fanbase would have been better off with a better dub. You just don't want to acknowledge that a lot of the divisiveness surrounding the dub is the result of the dub being so fundamentally altered from the original (when it never needed to be).But all of these points are still your personal pet peeves and don't answer the question whether the fanbase as a whole would be better off if the dub never existed.
We'll have to agree to disagree since I'm just repeating myself now.
They weren't there when DB was at its peak in the US.And why aren't they nostalgic for the Menza/Jonson scores too?
I know you want to claim this is a slam dunk argument, but plenty of people are nostalgic towards the previous cast.Are they somehow objective about voice acting but not music?
