Dragon Ball Movies HD Remaster - Amazon Video/Netflix Japan - Discussion Thread

[Danfun64]

For something like Dragon Ball, particularly the 16mm film of the main series, there's nothing to be gained from 4K, so Toei shouldn't even bother. The 35mm movies however (and the bit on Namek that used it) I think stand to gain something at least from 4K, but certainly not 8K.

FTFY. I highly doubt that 8mm would in any way be suitable for TV broadcasting a series.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Aren't Super episodes vectorized at some point? Which would mean they are effectively "resolution proof".

[Ajay]

Aren't Super episodes vectorized at some point? Which would mean they are effectively "resolution proof".

Sort of, but not really. The line art is prior to colouring, but the actual compositing and mastering is done in a 1600x900 composition in After Effects, and then scaled out to 1080p afterwards. No idea why they do it, but it's an industry-wide thing, and Super is surprisingly high on the end of that native res scale. Very few TV anime are natively above 720. Even Your Name's 4K release is just scaled up from their native 1080p master.

[Robo4900]

In plain math, 1080 to 4K is a 4x increase. 4K to 8K is a 2x increase. So mathematically it is less impressive.

For something like Dragon Ball, particularly the 8mm film of the main series, there's nothing to be gained from 4K, so Toei shouldn't even bother. The 16mm movies however (and the bit on Namek that used it) I think stand to gain something at least from 4K, but certainly not 8K.

There is a lot of misinformation there.

1080p is a framing area of 1920x1080, 4K is 3840x2160, and 8K is 7680x4320.
Assuming Dragon Ball is framed in its original 4:3 ratio, 1080p is 1440x1080, 4K is 2880x2160, and 8K is 5760x4320.

Notice the pattern here: 1080p to 4K and 4K to 8K is always a case of doubling the width and height of the frame, meaning the total difference is always a 4x increase.

In addition to this, Dragon Ball is not on 8mm. No professional production with any budget would be. It's 16mm. Scanning from Toei's negatives of the show, you should still be able to yield useful new information all the way up to 4K. 4K is about where it'll cap out though, unfortunately.
Theoretically, you could probably scan the movies in 6K or 8K, since it's 35mm film, but 8K would be about where that would cap off.

SD to HD was definitely a huge jump but when I'm watching shows and movies upscaled, I can't really tell much of a difference. Even moreso if it's Kai on DVD then it sort of looks the same as if I were watching it on Blu-ray.

Upscaling isn't HD. It's SD that's lying about being HD so it can sell more copies. It's utterly pointless.

Kai is an odd case... I have no idea what the guys mastering it were thinking, but it seems they scanned it in HD, but wanted to erase the grain, but were smart enough to know DNR is dumb, so instead they just blurred the picture massively...

Maybe I've become numb to this whole thing and don't mind the PQ as much as the next guy.

I'm incredibly picky about picture quality.

[Kuwabara]

Upscaling isn't HD. It's SD that's lying about being HD so it can sell more copies. It's utterly pointless.

I think he just meant the upscaling his TV does of SD content. Maybe you don't think highly of this process either, but upconversion of this nature usually looks fine to me as long as the TV itself happens to be of decent or better quality.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Upscaling isn't HD. It's SD that's lying about being HD so it can sell more copies. It's utterly pointless.

I think he just meant the upscaling his TV does of SD content. Maybe you don't think highly of this process either, but upconversion of this nature usually looks fine to me as long as the TV itself happens to be of decent or better quality.

Higher resolutions aren't for everyone. You could say that for cinephiles true HD is preferable to upscaled SD, whereas others are fine with the latter option. I personally like my shows and movies in full 1080p if available, but I don't fault anyone else for not needing that. Although, I don't know whether I will get that big into 4K and there's only so many titles I own that I will want to repurchase in the future.

[Kuwabara]

I would always prefer native 1080p or 4K, but sometimes that just isn't possible. A large swath of sitcoms shot/edited on videotape will never be released in HD, for example.

I still prefer some older DVDs to their Blu-ray counterparts as well, like numerous Disney releases, or the Director's Cut of Blade Runner on DVD as opposed to the Final Cut on Blu-ray. The work done on Final Cut is certainly commendable, but all of the suped up color grading and tweaking on Final Cut almost rob the feeling of the film being a work from the 80s. Terminator 2 was another one where the initial Blu-ray release stunk, thankfully that was improved in a subsequent release.

[Robo4900]

Upscaling isn't HD. It's SD that's lying about being HD so it can sell more copies. It's utterly pointless.

I think he just meant the upscaling his TV does of SD content. Maybe you don't think highly of this process either, but upconversion of this nature usually looks fine to me as long as the TV itself happens to be of decent or better quality.

I think you misunderstand. TV native upscaling is a necessary and good process.
But releasing Blu-Rays and such of standard-def content upscaled to HD, marketed as HD, is an awful lie that I hate.

I would always prefer native 1080p or 4K, but sometimes that just isn't possible. A large swath of sitcoms shot/edited on videotape will never be released in HD, for example.

I still prefer some older DVDs to their Blu-ray counterparts as well, like numerous Disney releases, or the Director's Cut of Blade Runner on DVD as opposed to the Final Cut on Blu-ray. The work done on Final Cut is certainly commendable, but all of the suped up color grading and tweaking on Final Cut almost rob the feeling of the film being a work from the 80s. Terminator 2 was another one where the initial Blu-ray release stunk, thankfully that was improved in a subsequent release.

Yeah, that's a good summation. I agree totally, though I haven't actually got around to seeing Blade Runner yet.

Problem is, Disney have been doing awful things to their movies for Blu-Ray release. Loads of companies do this(See: Funimation's work on DBZ), and it's a real shame. Sometimes you can find fan restorations online where they scanned original 35mm prints of movies, and did minimal cleaning and touching up, with the only real work being slight colour-correction, and sometimes you'll find these are superior to the official Blu-Rays(See: Star Wars, Aladdin).

I'm holding out hope that these companies see the light and put out proper, good Blu-Rays of their badly-done stuff someday. I hear Star Wars is on the path for this. And of course, Z's Blu-Rays being awful may be solved if Toei go ahead and remaster the Dragon Ball shows, as people are suggesting may be a possibility.

But, if content is not natively HD, I do not want to see it presented in HD. If it isn't native HD, just put it out in SD, and let me buy a DVD of it instead. Or put it on a BD but with tons and tons of content packed on per disc.

[Kuwabara]

I think you misunderstand. TV native upscaling is a necessary and good process.
But releasing Blu-Rays and such of standard-def content upscaled to HD, marketed as HD, is an awful lie that I hate.

I don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the latter. I just think JohnnyCashKami was talking about native TV upscaling to begin with.

Problem is, Disney have been doing awful things to their movies for Blu-Ray release. Loads of companies do this(See: Funimation's work on DBZ), and it's a real shame. Sometimes you can find fan restorations online where they scanned original 35mm prints of movies, and did minimal cleaning and touching up, with the only real work being slight colour-correction, and sometimes you'll find these are superior to the official Blu-Rays(See: Star Wars, Aladdin).

I'm holding out hope that these companies see the light and put out proper, good Blu-Rays of their badly-done stuff someday. I hear Star Wars is on the path for this. And of course, Z's Blu-Rays being awful may be solved if Toei go ahead and remaster the Dragon Ball shows, as people are suggesting may be a possibility.

But, if content is not natively HD, I do not want to see it presented in HD. If it isn't native HD, just put it out in SD, and let me buy a DVD of it instead. Or put it on a BD but with tons and tons of content packed on per disc.

One major problem Disney and Dragon Ball both share is the general audience, who don't really know any better when it comes to how film properties should be presented. That's a major hurdle for any kind of purist release, but it's worth holding out hope. I see the advent of 4K as one avenue of righting the wrongs of a lot of subpar Blu-ray releases, the recent 4K treatment of Predator is a complete 180 from the DNR House of Wax Edition of the film on Blu-ray.

Also, if you haven't seen Blade Runner yet, what are you waiting for!?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Aren't Super episodes vectorized at some point? Which would mean they are effectively "resolution proof".

Sort of, but not really. The line art is prior to colouring, but the actual compositing and mastering is done in a 1600x900 composition in After Effects, and then scaled out to 1080p afterwards. No idea why they do it, but it's an industry-wide thing, and Super is surprisingly high on the end of that native res scale. Very few TV anime are natively above 720. Even Your Name's 4K release is just scaled up from their native 1080p master.

Then what is the point?

Also which Disney Blu-Rays to avoid? I've known they do FUNimation things for a while and haven't bought any.

[Kuwabara]

Then what is the point?

Also which Disney Blu-Rays to avoid? I've known they do FUNimation things for a while and haven't bought any.

Unfortunately, every Disney Blu-ray has some level of unnecessary restoration. The worst ones in my mind are The Sword in the Stone, Dumbo, Robin Hood, and Aladdin.

This guide can give you a pretty good start on which versions of each film you should look out for, but it sadly hasn't been updated for a few years:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Recom ... s/id/15617

[KBABZ]

SD to HD was definitely a huge jump but when I'm watching shows and movies upscaled, I can't really tell much of a difference. Even moreso if it's Kai on DVD then it sort of looks the same as if I were watching it on Blu-ray.

Kai sort of, but when I see stuff from OG Dragon Ball in Kai I can tell it looks much better than my Dragon Box and Blue Brick versions.

Also yes I got my numbers wrong okay guys?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Then what is the point?

Also which Disney Blu-Rays to avoid? I've known they do FUNimation things for a while and haven't bought any.

Unfortunately, every Disney Blu-ray has some level of unnecessary restoration. The worst ones in my mind are The Sword in the Stone, Dumbo, Robin Hood, and Aladdin.

This guide can give you a pretty good start on which versions of each film you should look out for, but it sadly hasn't been updated for a few years:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Recom ... s/id/15617

Thanks for that!

[JohnnyCashKami]

Kai sort of, but when I see stuff from OG Dragon Ball in Kai I can tell it looks much better than my Dragon Box and Blue Brick versions.

Yes, you can generally notice Dragon Ball with better picture quality in Dragon Ball Kai due to being remastered and that's definitely a step up. But tbh, not a big deal for me.

I think he just meant the upscaling his TV does of SD content. Maybe you don't think highly of this process either, but upconversion of this nature usually looks fine to me as long as the TV itself happens to be of decent or better quality.

Exactly.

But releasing Blu-Rays and such of standard-def content upscaled to HD, marketed as HD, is an awful lie that I hate.

Well, regardless that you hate that's what companies do because most assume everything on Blu-ray (this is how it's actually spelled properly), is in high definition even though that's not always the case. Is this something somewhat important, in video aspect? Yes. A first world problem? Yes. A problem for the majority of the population? Nah.

[Robo4900]

Well, regardless that you hate that's what companies do

A few specific companies do it.

I realise this may sound like a nitpick, but if you're not careful about your phrasing, it can be very easy for others to infer a minor trend among a handful of companies you're talking about to be an industry-wide thing, probably one that's become standard and accepted. And, this being the internet, people are often inclined to believe such nonsense, regardless of whether you actually meant it.

(this is how it's actually spelled properly)

You mean the capitalisation?
Seems silly to quibble about tbh.

because most assume everything on Blu-ray, is in high definition even though that's not always the case.

Yes, which makes the lie even worse.

Though, realistically, people can be a lot more savvy about this than you'd think... The Amazon reviews for the upscaled Blu-Ray release of the BBC Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy series are universally "This is the same as the DVD. Don't bother." And on a similar note, while reviews of the BBC's Season 12 Blu-Ray boxset of classic Doctor Who have been positive, it's always noted that the quality is still standard-def levels of detail, just taking advantage of the high bitrate of Blu-Ray, and that the real gain in the boxset was the fact it was a full season set(Thus, while it was in print, cheaper than buying each story individually, and less of a shelf space hog), with some new bonus features.
So, I think it's clear that people are at least catching on to what upscaling is, and understanding that sometimes a Blu-Ray is only standard-def, and thus only really worth getting if it's cheaper, or includes new bonus features, and you don't already own it, which has been the response to the BBC's upscaled Blu-Rays, from what I've seen.

Is this something somewhat important, in video aspect? Yes. A first world problem? Yes. A problem for the majority of the population? Nah.

Sure. And us not having this Dragon Ball HD master is also a first world problem. And the fact the Level BDs were discontinued is a first-world problem. And the fact people in the USA couldn't get ahold of the first 13 episodes of OG Dragon Ball uncut/subtitled until 2009 was a first world problem. And the fact Dragon Ball Super's animation often sucks donkey balls is a first world problem. And, to drop a rather extreme example on you, the fact Hiromi Tsuru's death has put an end to her portrayal as Bulma is, ultimately, a first-world problem.

Your argument that this stuff is a first world problem is inherently ridiculous to my eyes. Look at Hiromi Tsuru's death -- it's sad, but if we're getting into the idea of first world problems, it's hard to not put basically all consequences of her death as far as we, the fans, are concerned down to first world problems... But when I heard the news of Tsuru's death, it hit me pretty hard. I doubt I am alone in this. And I doubt anyone except the most reprihensible would refer to this dismissively as a first world problem.

Call this stuff first world problems all you want. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Whether that's the case of Hiromi Tsuru, or a few companies being dumb about Blu-Ray releases, if something bad happens, it's still a bad thing, even if starving children in Africa wouldn't care about it.

[eledoremassis02]

New artwork

[KBABZ]

Oooh, from Amazon! Still not a fan of the logo, but I like how the Dragon Ball text reflects the one used for the manga.

[DHM211]

New artwork

Spoiler:

These look atrocious. Are they from Yamamuro?

[KBABZ]

New artwork

Spoiler:

These look atrocious. Are they from Yamamuro?

It certainly looks like it; they feel very similar to the poster art used for the three Story Arcs in FighterZ:

[DHM211]

New artwork

Spoiler:

These look atrocious. Are they from Yamamuro?

It certainly looks like it; they feel very similar to the poster art used for the three Story Arcs in FighterZ:

I had actually thought his work towards the end of Super(particularly his Ultra Instinct design and his corrections on episode 131) were really good. This is such a downgrade.