What makes canon so important for the fandom

[GT_Goten10]

What makes canon so important/not so important for you?

[PsionicWarrior]

universe consistency lol

[ABED]

The only thing I find important about it is I like stories to keep track of their own continuity. However, strict adherence to making things canon (like any attempt to make Super and GT both canon) feels fruitless and unimportant. If something is thrown out of the canon, those stories still exist. GT still exists whether Toei regards it as canon.

[Vijay]

I personally dont care bout canon or not

DB leads to Z (insert Super/Heroes here) eventually culminating into GT is my "canon"

I dont put much thought into specials/OVA's or movies as well

Of they fit into universe, cool

If they dont, cool

In fact, I've seen HXH, FMAB, YYH,Naruto fandom to embrace canonicity very strictly as it comes only from their author/creator

With DB fandom, we got tons of "what-if" films, OVA's, specials from TOEI, Tobyle apart from Toriyama

So I'd say, lets keep it loose.

[sintzu]

It's important because we need to know what counts and what doesn't. So far Toriyama has only taken his stories into account while writing so as long as he's the head writer his stories are the canon.

[Luso Saiyan]

The only thing I find important about canon is continuity and consistency. People shouldn't be left guessing what's part of the story and what isn't, which events have happened and which haven't. That doesn't mean works that aren't canon can't be enjoyed, nor does it mean they should be automatically avoided. Anyway, Dragon Ball is virtually pretty clear cut as far as what's part of the main story, irrespective of what the official stance is.

[Saturnine]

The fact that I don't have to worry about stuff like Yamcha > Perfect Cell > SSj Goku > Yamcha.

[VegettoEX]

I'd wager there are actually two camps that actively "care" about it to the point of bringing it up again and again, particularly in cases where it wasn't part of the discussion to begin with:

(1) THE QUAINT GROUP: NEW FANS

At one point in time, Dragon Ball was easy: there was the original manga, and the TV series adaptation. There wasn't much of a concern, except maybe in cases where things contradicted one another between the two mediums... though all of these could still be resolved by "one was in the manga, one wasn't". The contemporary movies added a little extra confusion, but not really: it was obvious what they were to anyone with a passing familiarity. GT didn't really add as much to conversation as one might think, considering it was short, only existed as an anime, and that was that.

But Dragon Ball isn't so "simple" anymore. Ask someone what Bardock's story is and see what you get back. Does he have a kind heart or is he a genocidal maniac? Does he die or is he captured in time? Is he a Super Saiyan or is he a Masked Saiyan?

Nevermind that, though. This shit is impenetrable for new, incoming fans:

"Dragon Ball Super is a sequel series that starts before the original series' end and doesn't replace in chronological time but replaces in effective story-telling a previously-produced continuation of the series; it also re-tells two movies of the same nature, one of which was released earlier that same year."

Fucking WHAT?

When someone new to Dragon Ball asks if something is "canon", what they're effectively really asking (even if they don't know it) is: "What should I pay attention to that is currently considered the 'true' version of the story? There is an overwhelming amount of material, and for the time being, my primary interest is in consuming the entirety of the series as a complete whole without extraneous material that may not be relevant to, covered in, or perhaps may even contradict this mainline story."

That's something I can empathize with. One of the things that attracted me to manga/anime over, say, American comics was the fact that they seemed to all have explicit beginnings, middles, and ends. You could consume all of it. It was all just right there. An entire story. No X-Men and Uncanny X-Men and also House of M is going on affecting the entire Marvel universe oh and also there's a four-part miniseries for this character going on over here. Nope: start with episode 1, end with episode X. Congratulations: you've seen it all.

You can't do that with Dragon Ball (anymore, if ever at all). It's a hard sell, and it's hard to describe to people. You may not think it is, but that's because you (and I, and all of us) live and breathe this stuff day in and day out and already know everything.

They're asking for help and guidance in navigating this massive franchise. That's an honest question. It's one asked in earnest. It should be welcomed with a smile, open arms, and with concise, factual descriptions rather than condemnation.

(2) THE OTHER GROUP: STRENGTH DEBATES

It always come back to this, doesn't it?

There's always an argument. There's always an in-bad-faith "debate" (a word that has lost all meaning). There's always a need to one-up another person, to cite some passage and ride off into the sunset claiming victory over the peons looking to discuss Dragon Ball GT's musical score, but hey thanks for letting everyone know the series isn't canon that's indeed very relevant to the discussion.

I joke, but not really.

Like, I don't even really know what else to say. It's ubiquitous. The vast majority of "canon" debates are people looking to win online arguments about which character could beat which character.

-----------------

People have been debating this shit with Dragon Ball longer than some of you have probably been alive, and before the series even ended its original serialization.

For me? It doesn't matter one way or the other, except in cases where I'm "doing my job" of documenting the franchise and its production and I see misinformation. When I correct information, I'm not looking to "win" or even coerce someone into "liking" something that I might prefer; it's simply a matter of "that person never said that thing that way" and/or "that's not how that thing was made".

Personally, I have no real interest in some mainline "canon" because I'm too deep in this franchise to exclusively care about something like that. If I were to pick up another new, long-running franchise... yeah, I'd probably want to know what (if anything) was considered "canon" so I didn't "accidentally" start reading/watching things that might not be relevant anymore. If and when I get "into" this new thing and then decide I'd like to check out some of the older ancillary stuff, even if it doesn't "count" anymore... that makes much more sense for my free time!

And ya' know what, that solidly puts me right up into my Group #1 up there, bringing my explanation full circle .

[Cipher]

The inability to accept a lack of control over the indifferent universal forces that press upon our lives as we inch ever closer to the grave.

[shadowfox87]

The word, "canon", is not important to me as much as "continuity". When people say there is no canon, I do disagree. The truth is that the canon is "undefined" with respect to Dragon Ball Super. However, before DBS, it was pretty clear what the canon was - the original DB/DBZ manga. Hence, that should still not change with respect to DB and DBZ. Original works of Toriyama like DB Minus, Jaco the Patrolman, etc. are still canon. It's only unclear for Dragon Ball Super. There are split parties now for anime camp and manga camp.

So what do I care about? I care about logical consistency and continuity. Does it make sense? Both the anime and manga have differences but that's fine. We have to look at each separately and evaluate only the consistencies within the same story. That is, the anime is canon to itself and the manga is canon to itself. The questions we should ask then is - Did the anime contradict itself? Did the manga contradict itself? As long as it states and establishes facts that don't contradict later in the story, then for me, that's a logical continuity. Note that, for me, these aren't "retcons". A retcon is a new piece of information that gives a different interpretation of previously established facts. However, that retcon does not directly contradict anything. For example, Vegito's defuse time limit STILL does not contradict anything in DBZ. This is because Vegito defused inside Buu's stomach and there was never an explanation for it! What characters say and do are subjective and cannot be taken as fact. If the Elder Kai says something, he also can be wrong because he may not have all the information. The Elder Kai fused with a witch permanently, so he said what he said based on his own experience since it is rare for the potarra to be used exclusively for mortals.

[ABED]

A retcon is different from a reveal. A retcon usurps previously known information and acts like it was always the case. A reveal gives the audience information it didn't already have. Often times it's revealed the information the audience was given wasn't in fact true. For instance. Retcons do bother me they are contradictory. Goku being an alien isn't a retcon because we never knew his origin. The anime creates filler that too often contradicts information that Toriyama explains later, like the origin of the DB's (although Muten Roshi prefaces his statement) and Dr. Frappe being the creator of the cyborgs. That bugs me because it's the author(s) not paying attention to their own continuity.

GT being thrown out of canon doesn't bother me, especially since it happened nearly 20 years later.

[Luso Saiyan]

Original works of Toriyama like DB Minus, Jaco the Patrolman, etc. are still canon. It's only unclear for Dragon Ball Super.

Maybe it's just me, but unless we are talking about an IP with a long history of different interpretations of the same story and/or characters (most superhero IPs being a good example), I'll always fall back to the works of the original author to know what's canon and what isn't (since companies will often count everything in without regard to artistic intention/integrity for the sake of expanding the brand and cash in on it).

That's why in the case of Dragon Ball, I find it a much more worthwile discussion to find out the level of involvement of Toriyama in any given work. To me, that's what's canon too. Specially in the absence of an official policy.

[shadowfox87]

That's why in the case of Dragon Ball, I find it a much more worthwile discussion to find out the level of involvement of Toriyama in any given work. To me, that's what's canon too. Specially in the absence of an official policy.

Yes, exactly. Canon is not something that is exclusive to DB. Everything in the world of stories, artwork, shows, etc. has used this word and it is defined the same way. There are other anime and manga that also use it the same way. Anything shown in the anime that's not in the manga is considered "filler". That's how we know what is filler in animes like Naruto and One Piece. The problem is that it is unclear what Toriyama's involvement is in DB Super since he sends drafts to both Toyotaro and Toei and each adapt them differently. This is what creates the confusion. Hence, for DB Super, it is correct to say that there is "no canon" or that the "canon is undefined". However, I think it is incorrect to say that "there is no canon at all in Dragon Ball".

[Luso Saiyan]

The problem is that it is unclear what Toriyama's involvement is in DB Super since he sends drafts to both Toyotaro and Toei and each adapt them differently. This is what creates the confusion.

And the confusion in the case of Super is understandable. But unfortunately most discussions on this issue fall back to power levels and/or "this is canon because I like it better". Which at the end of the day is a very empty discussion. Hence why I said it's much more interesting to discover what Toriyama did and approved, when and where.

[shadowfox87]

And the confusion in the case of Super is understandable. But unfortunately most discussions on this issue fall back to power levels and/or "this is canon because I like it better". Which at the end of the day is a very empty discussion. Hence why I said it's much more interesting to discover what Toriyama did and approved, when and where.

You can only do that with interviews. That's exactly what I did already. I gathered all of the instances describing Toriyama's involvement and put them into one thread. The thread in question is in my signature below. You should read it. However, one should still look at "continuity" and logic. If we see SSG Goku appear for example out of nowhere in the ToP without any explanation of why he didn't use it before and nobody surprised to see it, that's a red flag. If SSG Vegeta appears out of nowhere in the anime, then that's a red flag.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

And the confusion in the case of Super is understandable. But unfortunately most discussions on this issue fall back to power levels and/or "this is canon because I like it better". Which at the end of the day is a very empty discussion. Hence why I said it's much more interesting to discover what Toriyama did and approved, when and where.

You can only do that with interviews. That's exactly what I did already. I gathered all of the instances describing Toriyama's involvement and put them into one thread. The thread in question is in my signature below. You should read it. However, one should still look at "continuity" and logic. If we see SSG Goku appear for example out of nowhere in the ToP without any explanation of why he didn't use it before and nobody surprised to see it, that's a red flag. If SSG Vegeta appears out of nowhere in the anime, then that's a red flag.

A red flag for what exactly? Goku hasn't used it because he simply chose not too prior to the ToP that's it, like SS3 he uses it sometimes but not always (hadn't used it since Beerus then whipped it against Trunks).
In fact they gave an explanation for it very well in the episode it was used to combat Dyspo's speed and to further conserve stamina. Non of which were applicable in previous arcs.

[shadowfox87]

A red flag for what exactly? Goku hasn't used it because he simply chose not too prior to the ToP that's it, like SS3 he uses it sometimes but not always (hadn't used it since Beerus then whipped it against Trunks).
In fact they gave an explanation for it very well in the episode it was used to combat Dyspo's speed and to further conserve stamina. Non of which were applicable in previous arcs.

SSJ3 is completely different and has a perfectly logical reason NOT to use it since it drains a lot of stamina. SSG drains LESS stamina than SSB. Whis goes on to say during the ToP that it was "smart" for Goku to use SSG before SSB against Dyspo, that it conserves his stamina and allows him to use the full power of SSB in short bursts - the same explanation given in the manga.

Why wouldn't it be applicable in previous arcs? Conserving stamina against Zamasu and Hit don't matter? It is what caused Vegeta to lose his battle with Hit in the first place because he didn't conserve stamina and turned into an SSB against Cabba. In the manga, Vegeta utilized the strategy of switching between SSG and SSB against Black that gave him an edge.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It depends who you ask. As has been said, some care a lot, others don't at all.

The problem is when you want to recommend Dragon Ball to someone. It used to be much more simple with the manga, anime and movies all being their own thing, but now with Minus, the recent movies and Super it has become a lot harder. There is always ifs and buts about how relevant something new is, and with the movie retellings and new Super manga we've seen things being written over and playing out differently.

Its become so messy its really best not to care about consistency of storytelling, that should be the writer's job, not the fans.

Thankfully we can still treat Heroes as its own thing not to be taken too seriously in terms of the main timeline, but really nothing is out of the realm of possibility now.

[Luso Saiyan]

A red flag for what exactly?

I agree. It's not something that requires further explanation and is not exactly something illogical either. That kind of pedantic concern over trivial power/transformation related stuff is what I consider to be part of the 'power level'-type of discussion.

[ABED]

Its become so messy its really best not to care about consistency of storytelling, that should be the writer's job, not the fans.

It's not the fans' job to worry about it, but it is a concern because logical inconsistency can impede a reader's emotional investment.