Dragon Ball Minus is not bad.

[Master Xar]

It's awful. The biggest crime in Minus is that it makes Goku special. That devalues most of his achievements throughout the original series, especially the ones in the Saiyan arc.

And yes, there is a plot hole in Minus. Bardock stole a pod. How could Raditz ever find it and know it's Goku? Through Freeza? Then how did Freeza not know about Goku?

In what way? Outside of his parents actually caring about their family (which is to say that doesn’t mean other saiyans couldn’t be good in their own ways) they are still just as murderous and as cruel as the other saiyans to where they send their sons. Off planet to kill entire races (and yes THEY still do this since Raditz is seen doing this)

If he were to ever track it through some sort of GPS that “history” from the pods being tracked is still there in some form if he were to ever find it in the story in the first place. You can’t just “track” something that has no track in the first place. So that means the original log of those pods being launched is still there in some form. Which is to say Raditz can just look at the lost or missing saiyan pods and any likely locations or planets Goku might be sent to from there.

And given how they set up the events Gine and Bardock aim to inform Raditz on the situation. With ambiguous circumstances after the ending from then on, they might have given Raditz limited information on Goku and his current whereabouts and not the rest for unknown reasons (some form of trouble on the end or otherwise)

... but my main point being that Gine and Bardock aimed to inform Raditz on the situation in some form which is to say it’s not a plot hole depending on how they did it and informs him on Goku.

[Master Xar]

People don't like it because they watched the Bardock Special first and they have it in their mind what Bardock is like and his personality.

You do not appear to be reading the contributions from other community members. Please make sure you are actively engaging in the discussion actually taking place, rather than the arguments you are making up and projecting out of thin air.

I don’t see how this isn’t anything not contributing to the discussion. It’s a valid point. Plenty of people get hooked on the original more than remakes, especially if the original was good. Dragonball Minus didn’t do anything to really change or crush the story as hard as people think. You see plenty of people just hating on it for bad or inexplicable reasons that I have pointed out. I don’t think this was a fair mod call-out here given that there are others on here that actually contributed less than him, this smells a bit biased here no offense

If you have something to say on the Dragonball Minus discussion just say it Mike. Don’t use your mod status like this.

[Master Xar]

I've been fortunate enough to be able to express my opinions on Minus in posts, in videos, and even in Kanzenshuu's own DB 30th Anniversary magazine, so I do run the risk of restating things I've been saying for four years. Suffice it to say, I don't like it. I think it's a complete travesty, and the best part, from a critical standpoint, is that you can easily find fault with it from so many angles. It almost sounds perverse to say, but it's almost exciting in how many ways it fails because there are so many opportunities to find "this is what not to do when telling a story" lessons.

But I'm not here for that today. What's been fascinating me of late is using "it's just a short bonus chapter, so how can you expect anything good from it?" as a defense. That kind of mentality bothers me, both because it's not really a defense so much as damning with faint praise, and because it's addressing people's criticisms by deflecting the subject away from the criticisms and rendering any further criticisms invalid by this loophole. It's not as good as it could be because it's not long enough to tell its story, but it's not fair to criticize it for that because it's not long enough to tell its story. It's basically a circular argument.

Let's look at Trunks: The Story, Toriyama's bonus chapter from the '90s, which is basically the antecedent for Dragon Ball Minus. All of the mistakes Toriyama makes in Minus are the same mistakes he had already made here. And then look at The Trunks Special, the anime adaptation of that same chapter. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who prefers Trunks: The Story over The Trunks Special. And you might be quick to rush to the same defense, that The Trunks Special has more time to tell its story. And that's not untrue. They make great use of the extra time. But The Trunks Special inadvertently reveals what the real problem is. What The Trunks Special does is turn Trunks: The "Story" into an actual story. Because it wasn't, despite the name. It was just a collection of background events that we already knew: Gohan trained Trunks, Gohan was killed, Trunks uses a time machine. All Trunks: The Story does is take those background elements and draw them onto a page. Doing that, and putting the word "Story" into your title, does not automatically turn it into a story. It's a novelty getting to see younger Trunks and Future Gohan. It's a fanservicey window into a terrible future. But it does not stand alone as a story. As a properly-utilized flashback in a chapter of Dragon Ball, it might have worked to supplement a narrative thread there. But it doesn't work as a story on its own, which is how it is presented.

The Trunks Special, however, does take that and turn it into its own story. By exploring that world in greater detail and tweaking some specifics, they're able to focus those elements into a character arc for Trunks. It's a journey for him, one that demonstrates how he becomes the person we see in the main series. He breaks away from the safety net of his mother, crossing the threshold into danger and adulthood. As one of the last people with the potential to become a Super Saiyan, he has a great responsibility thrust onto him but struggles to reach that potential. He finally does but only a great cost. Then he has to deal with his own hubris and desire for revenge, to finally understand just how over his head he is, to become humble enough to reach out to those who might be able to help him. None of that is present in Trunks: The Story. The kernels of the final point are kinda there but sped through so much that it's not even remotely effective. The Trunks Special, like The Bardock Special before it, takes us on the journey of a character finding himself, learning, growing, and failing. Trunks: The Story just regurgitates plot points we already knew that lead to an inevitable conclusion: Trunks travels back to the past, so here a few things that happened before that.

And those are the same sins that Minus commits. It's not interested in telling a story. There is no story. There are simply bullet points of backstory drawn for our convenience. There are no characters. There is no progression. There is no point. While it does "reveal" a few things we certainly didn't know, it's nothing that's really important to Dragon Ball's story, and it's not anything that's given the opportunity to be fleshed out enough to be interesting on its own. Who is Bardock? I don't know. I don't spend enough time with him. Who is Gine? I don't know. I don't spend enough time with her. What is it about Bardock that makes him the only Saiyan capable of figuring out what Freeza's up to? Is he smarter than the average Saiyan? Are all the other Saiyans dumb? I don't know. There's no chance to explore it. We don't have time to think about that. We have to make a mad dash for the ending here.

I'm sure you're all saying that proves your point. The Trunks Special has an unfair advantage in extra time. Dragon Ball Minus just doesn't have enough page space to fully explore these concepts. And you'd be right. But that's not an excuse. When you use a medium that is not suited to telling the story you want to tell, that doesn't give you a free pass to tell that story badly. That's just setting yourself up for failure. Pretty much any medium is capable of telling a compelling story. But it has to be the right story for the medium. Hell, newspaper comic strips are intended to do that in three panels! But if you tried to tell The Lord of the Rings in three panels, I daresay you'd be hard pressed to make it work. It is far too complex to engagingly tell that story in that medium. Now, of course, there are serialized comic strips. It's not really a format I care for to tell that kind of story, but even they're not trying to tell it in three panels. They're telling it over the course of months, years. Because for all the protestations of "This is only 15 pages!" coming from DB Minus defenders, all of Dragon Ball is in the 15-page format. Toriyama just never typically tried to tell a complete story in 15 pages. Because that would be ridiculous. Why does this get a pass for trying to cram an epic story of betrayal and resistance and establishing two completely unknown characters into 15 pages? Even the first chapter of Dragon Ball, which was only the introduction to a story but still had to establish two characters and the concept of the Dragon Balls, was given twice as much room as this. Hell, even Jaco, which is a comparatively smaller, more intimate story, was given ten times the space as this. As if the deck wasn't stacked against it already, Dragon Ball Minus wastes about four pages just showing fanservice and wasting time. It cuts to Freeza, not to explore his motivations, his fears, or anything like that, but just so he can exposit that he is indeed going to destroy Planet Vegeta, and so he can name drop Super Saiyan God. It cuts away to Raditz and Vegeta just so we can know what they look like as kids. It cuts away to Jaco, just so we can see that Jaco is assigned to go to earth, which we presumably already know because we just got done reading his story! I'm not saying that even that would have been enough space to really flesh out the attempt at story here, but it certainly would have helped. This needed focus to even have a prayer at developing anything engaging. But not only did it not have nearly the space it needed to tell that story, it couldn't even effectively use the space it had!

I'm a fan of silent films. And recently, I got to see the seminal Harold Lloyd comedy Safety Last! in theatres. It was a fantastic experience and reminded me just how effectively you can tell a story even if you don't have any audible dialogue. It's almost exclusively visual humor, visual storytelling, visual characterization, with just a few intertitles and personal letters to convey dialogue when necessary. A couple of days later, I watched Pulp Fiction. If you've seen that movie, you know that it is primarily dialogue. It is witty banter, characterization through verbal interaction. Just imagine trying to make Pulp Fiction into a silent film. Oh, there are definitely ways you could do it. You could present it exactly the same way and just present all the dialogue as intertitles. And then you'd have the most boring movie in existence, and you'd make it about five hours long. All of that energy present in seeing two fantastic actors verbally sparring with each other would be reduced to watching two people sitting in a booth for minutes on end never moving, silently flapping their gums, and then cutting to a black screen with words every thirty seconds to find out what it is they said. You probably could tell a similar story silently, but it would require huge amounts of reworking to present the same kinds of characterization in a way that is both visually interesting and capable of being understood with limited dialogue. And that's a huge, huge change to make a story like that and would require an exceptional amount of talent and care. In other words, the first example completely misses the expectations and limitations of the medium and tries to force a story that doesn't fit into that box. And the result is a disaster.

So I agree with all of you who say that you can't expect the same kind of detailed, epic story Dragon Ball usually tells in 15 pages. I just wish somebody had told Toriyama that, so he wouldn't have pushed along with it anyway, with predictable results.

With what angles that I haven’t already said? There isn’t any visible plotholes. The original intent of the characters is still there along with the narrative of the saiyan saga. You keep looking at it from the perspective that it’s meant to be a fleshed out story when that’s not it’s purpose in the first place. Not to mention going in-depth of the past is not Toriyama’s style. He doesn’t do big flashbacks or explain big events of the past. I’d even argue that it’s something writers should strive not to do as...

The pre-story or events of the past is not the main story. It’s just events of the past to build the world and paste of the characters and how we got from point A to point B. The past is just that. The Past... it isn’t the main story. You can use events or characters to expand on or add to the main story but at the end of the day. The past doesn’t HAVE to be a big, fleshed-out story. It can.

Like I said the Trunks Special and The Bardock Special are wonderful stories that fleshed-out Toriyama’s original setup of the past, but, that is not to discredit the originals and their story.

You can prefer or want Minus to be more fleshed out to tell a story. But that’s not the point. The main story is the one that needs to be fleshed out or expanded on. Not the past.

Who is Bardock? You’re not supposed to know. Who is Gine? You are not supposed to know. It’s a brief overview of events. It’s a sample. A taste of what is there. Not the full course meal. It’s not trying to tell a story because that’s the entire point man. It’s a addendum like someone said. It fulfills it’s objective of explaining the events of what lead up to Planet Vegeta’s destruction. It does it’s job.

Trunks and Bardock specials got expanded on because they were trying to tell a story of Toriyama’s brief description of those events and proceeds to go in detail. My point being that it’s unfair to hold the manga to such a standard as telling a big story when it’s not the point. And where do you get the idea of it...

“telling a big story of revenge and betrayal”

You are still looking at it from a biased point of view. That it has to live up to being this big fleshed-out story as the original was.

The 15 pages in that story (yes all of them) serve a purpose and explain events. Vegeta and Raditz are shown as kids off planet to show they are off-planet and shows where they are during all this, to prevent the potential plothole since Freeza called all Saiyans to be on planet. Freeza being informed on the SSJG helps back up his information on the saiyans aiding his paranoia retroactively, and this gives SSJG more believability and weight.


This thread and the posts just show me that once again it is a hatedom. A trend to hate without actually understanding the original intent to try to sound “critical” in that it’s objectively bad when it isn’t. The most you could argue is that it sort of makes Goku’s story more Superman-esque (thus less original) given that his parents actually care about him, but that’s really all.


The posts here only go on and on about how it’s so bad and how it’s such a terrible thing without even explaining why they think it objectively is bad.


Tell me one thing the Dragonball Minus fails to do in its original intent: Explain the important events and contextualize the past of the characters in 15 pages.

[Gaffer Tape]

Once again I don’t see how this is objectively bad. It’s a brief take on the Bardock Special. It’s meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date. Not every piece of a story has to be completely explained or fleshed out from the start. It leaves out plenty of potential for future events or stories to go over a explain any events Dragon Ball Minus may or may not bring to the forefront later on.

Okay, now you're trying to posit two contradictory things. I thought the defense was that this was a standalone bonus chapter. Now it's the gateway to new material? Really? It's been over four years since this thing came out. Obviously it appears that it will finally be addressed or referenced (however briefly) in the upcoming movie. But given how little we know about that, it's a bit presumptuous of you to state that "it's meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date." You're just making that up. You have no idea.

I don’t see how this isn’t anything not contributing to the discussion. It’s a valid point. Plenty of people get hooked on the original more than remakes, especially if the original was good. Dragonball Minus didn’t do anything to really change or crush the story as hard as people think. You see plenty of people just hating on it for bad or inexplicable reasons that I have pointed out. I don’t think this was a fair mod call-out here given that there are others on here that actually contributed less than him, this smells a bit biased here no offense

If you have something to say on the Dragonball Minus discussion just say it Mike. Don’t use your mod status like this.

No. It's not a valid point. It's an extremely misleading and reductive point. It's also inaccurate, at least in regards to the discussion in this forum, where people have brought forth pages' worth, if not novellas' worth, of criticism in regards to its storytelling (or lack thereof) and its problematic plot points. To reduce all of that to "you just don't like it because it's not the Bardock Special" is frustrating and, quite frankly, insulting. I'm not saying no one has made that argument, but to those of us who do bother to put forth legitimate criticisms, such arguments are even more annoying to us than they are to you, because they make us embarrassed by association. And also because there is so much fruit ripe for the picking that it seems incredibly lazy to fall back on that.

Now I'm not at all saying that it's invalid to draw comparisons between the two. For the very nature of the premise (doing a new take on an established character), that is to be completely expected. And if one take is infinitely better than the other, all it's going to do is draw attention to the other's shortcomings. But that doesn't boil down to "I hate this because it isn't the Bardock Special." It more boils down to "I hate this, and it's even more of a shame because we already have an example of this being done so well."

I can only speak for myself, but when I came into this chapter four years ago, I had no expectations of it being the Bardock Special. I didn't think it would be. I didn't want it to be. I was eager to see Toriyama's new take on this. I put all preconceptions out of my mind and read it and judged it on its own merits. And it was still terrible. And even after four years of writing and reflecting and analyzing and making videos on the subject, that opinion has not changed in the slightest.

So, yes, I definitely agree with Mike on this one. That kind of comment does not drive discussion forward. Maybe there are times when it's a legitimate complaint to make. But we've done more than enough, in this thread and countless others, to explain why we feel the way we do. You don't have to agree, and chances are you never will. That's fine. But it does make us feel like we're wasting our time putting effort into this discussion if we're just going to be met with such a dismissive rebuttal that ignores everything we've said.

Oh, and I see you've replied to my post as I've been writing this. Here we go:

Who is Bardock? You’re not supposed to know. Who is Gine? You are not supposed to know. It’s a brief overview of events. It’s a sample. A taste of what is there. Not the full course meal. It’s not trying to tell a story because that’s the entire point man. It’s a addendum like someone said. It fulfills it’s objective of explaining the events of what lead up to Planet Vegeta’s destruction. It does it’s job.

I'm not supposed to know? Then answer me why I'm supposed to like it. Why am I supposed to care? Why am I supposed to be entertained? This is such a backwards argument you're putting out here. Because you're basically defending this by saying, "It's supposed to suck! What's the problem?" And how can I defend against that? But as far as I see it, the point of any piece of fiction, any narrative, any STORY is to entertain me. What's entertaining about not knowing who the main character is or what his motivations are? And, yes, Bardock is the main characters of Dragon Ball Minus. I mean, I really don't even know what to say anymore, if the best defense you can come up with is to basically tell me that it being bad was the whole point. I mean, okay. Mission accomplished, I guess.

You keep claiming I'm looking at it from an angle that it's supposed to be something it's not. Well, I don't think it's supposed to be anything. You're the one who seems to keep assuming that it's "a setup for something grander" or some such. The only thing I think it, and any story is supposed to be, is good. And by good I mean engaging, entertaining, enlightening. Any of those three will do. Otherwise, what is the point? What is the point in wasting my time reading it if it's boring, half-cooked, meandering, and pandering, with no narrative drive or focus, no interesting characters, and ultimately damages some of the themes of the original story? Which leads me to...

As for your claim that it does not butcher the narrative of the Saiyan Arc, I wholeheartedly disagree. It completely screws up one of its most poignant and important themes. And just like in the Broli thread last week, I'm just going to have to quote myself, because I've written this far too many times.

But what really makes Dragon Ball Minus such a disgrace in my eyes is because of this exchange right here. Before they start fighting, Vegeta tries to rattle Goku by comparing their statuses in Saiyan society, saying that Goku should feel privileged to get to fight an elite, and that the whole reason Goku was sent to earth in the first place is because Saiyans are tested for combat aptitude at birth, and those with no promise are sent to subjugate weak planets like this one. However, Goku is unfazed by this insult. In fact, he says he's glad to have been considered trash because that was what allowed him to escape those very limitations his society had placed upon him. It taught him that hard work is more important than social status or a fate placed on him while he's still an infant.

Goku's journey this arc, aside from running back and forth along a boring snake, ties into finding out who he is. And it's nothing good. His native species are terrible people. His brother kidnaps his son. His other remaining kinsmen kill his friends. He's saved the world, but he was actually sent here to destroy it, and it was only through a lucky chance that that wasn't exactly what ended up happening. But that's exactly who Goku is. He's one of them. Except that he's not. Even as far back as his birth, his people rejected him, labeled him as nearly worthless, and shipped him off to do the only thing they judged him capable of doing. And that's the beautiful irony of it all. If they hadn't judged him to be inferior, he probably would have met the same fate as the rest of them and died. He certainly would never have saved earth and proven himself worthy to train under gods. Only because his fellow Saiyans concluded he had no potential did he manage to achieve it. And now he is face to face with the personification of that bigotry, and he is about to show him exactly what a low-born castoff can do and just how wrong they were about him. That despite their aspersions on him, he can be better than all of them. Unless of course you believe Dragon Ball Minus where his parents love him so much that they send him to earth so he can thrive, which is exactly what he ends up doing. Yawn. Toriyama admittedly flies by the seat of his pants, but I can't think of a greater example of where he seemingly came upon an amazing plot and character thread so serendipitously that he had no idea he did it and so never realized he was gleefully backing over it with a truck.

So it's bad enough that Dragon Ball Minus doesn't tell a story, doesn't include any real characters, and wastes a quarter of its already limited space dangling shiny things in front of the faces of its audience in the hopes of distracting them from noticing the lack of story and characters. But the fact that it tramples over perhaps the most beautiful thematic underpinnings Dragon Ball has ever presented in favor of a half-baked Superman ripoff that isn't even interesting in and of itself is its ultimate insult. The contrast between Goku and Vegeta forms the bedrock of their rivalry, which continues to be one of the most important aspects of the franchise to this day. And that conversation between them, before they take their iconic fighting stances, is what sets that in motion, what lays out that contrast. Dragon Ball Minus does not entirely destroy that premise. But it does damage it. Go ahead. Go back to the Saiyan Arc. Re-read what Vegeta says. And I already know what you're going to say: "Vegeta wasn't there. He doesn't know the real story. That's not a plot hole. Continuity is preserved." That's not the point. That's not what's important. What Vegeta says carries emotional weight. If you're having to keep a variation of the above quote in your head while you're reading that scene, you're having to dismiss what Vegeta says as incorrect. And because you're having to handwave it away as unimportant inaccuracies that aren't technically a plothole, those words are no longer resonating! They're being dismissed. They're being ignored. Their ramifications are being lost. Because Dragon Ball Minus told you they're not true. They're not worth taking seriously. And for what? Because we got to see Goku's mom. Whoopty-flippin-do.

[PFM18]

Dragon Ball Minus was completely unnecessary especially since Episode of Bardock was something that Toriyama actually enjoys. It was previously established that the Saiyan race is a bunch of savages and Goku comes from a low-class, weak, family and he is nothing special within the context of the alien warrior race that is the Saiyans. Minus portrays Bardock and Gine as these nice people and their son to be something actually special. It contradicts what the Saiyans and Goku were established to be and it doesn't actually add anything significant to the story whatsoever. I honestly can't think of anything that was executed well in the entirety of this bonus chapter.

To me, it is the worst thing Toriyama ever created DB related and it isn't even close to being close.

[shadowfox87]

I don’t see how this isn’t anything not contributing to the discussion. It’s a valid point. Plenty of people get hooked on the original more than remakes, especially if the original was good. Dragonball Minus didn’t do anything to really change or crush the story as hard as people think. You see plenty of people just hating on it for bad or inexplicable reasons that I have pointed out. I don’t think this was a fair mod call-out here given that there are others on here that actually contributed less than him, this smells a bit biased here no offense

If you have something to say on the Dragonball Minus discussion just say it Mike. Don’t use your mod status like this.

Thanks for the defense haha. My point was my own opinion to suggest that people can get primed to liking a specific version of a story because that is the one they see first. I thought it was a valid point as well.

I don't like it because it eliminates the irony behind the Goku's big revelation at the beginning of the Saiyan arc. Son Goku, who had wound up saving the world and becoming one of its most powerful fighters, is revealed to be some low-ranking alien initially sent there to conquer it. Minus undoes that, rendering the Earth as just an over-glorified day care center that his parents sent him off to with the intention of picking him up later in the event that Freeza doesn't do anything.

What makes it worse is how Goku's parents are painted as this unusual couple, with Gine herself being some softhearted and out of the ordinary Saiyan. It comes off as overly coincidental that the main character, of all people, just happened to have parents that were a bit of an anomaly. They don't even send Goku to Earth with little regard for its inhabitants and the expectation that he'll destroy everything. They flat out warn him NOT to look at the full moon. It feels utterly manufactured, as they're made to seem special precisely BECAUSE Goku is the protagonist. He's the hero, so of course his parents have to stand out and not simply be run-of-the-mill Saiyans, right???

These are issues that have nothing to do with it not being the original television special. Hell, even THAT one is guilty of making Bardock feel extraordinary to an extent. After all, Bardock being the lone Saiyan who went and stood up to Freeza right before Planet Vegeta was destroyed is pretty coincidental (and THAT'S the part that gets shoved into the manga as a reference). The special just wisely makes sure to humble Bardock at every step, having practically everything go wrong for the guy so that the big climax can actually feel like a well earned moment in the spotlight (right before someone sets him on fire and the curtains close).

Thanks for responding to my previous point. I guess this means I did contribute to the discussion. Yes, I understand your point. You didn't want Goku to be sent to Earth intentionally with the same backstory as Superman because you previously had established that Goku was sent to Earth to conquer it. However, as Goku is a baby, he would have no understanding of what Bardock and Gine were doing. He was confused even when he said bye to them. As DB starts, we know that Goku was a violent kid until he hit his head. Therefore, the initial story of Goku conquering Earth may still hold true if he didn't hit his head. I mean, he did kill his Grandpa Gohan in Oozaru afterall.

I don't agree with your second point. You find it unusual that Gine is a softhearted and an out of ordinary saiyan, but how can we even say that? Every Saiyan is different with a different personality. Why do we have to classify every saiyan as "hardhearted" and brutal. She was the first real female Saiyan we saw. Giving Goku a mother was nice. In the end, regardless of what they told Goku, he did look at the moon, so the point was mute.

The events that led up to Bardock fighting in space can STILL happen after the events of DB Minus. We have no idea what Bardock did after Goku was sent off. Remember that there are two panels of Bardock in space as a flashback in Chapter 307 of the DBZ manga, so it is canon and it did happen. DB Minus doesn't contradict that.

Dragon Ball Minus was completely unnecessary especially since Episode of Bardock was something that Toriyama actually enjoys. It was previously established that the Saiyan race is a bunch of savages and Goku comes from a low-class, weak, family and he is nothing special within the context of the alien warrior race that is the Saiyans. Minus portrays Bardock and Gine as these nice people and their son to be something actually special. It contradicts what the Saiyans and Goku were established to be and it doesn't actually add anything significant to the story whatsoever. I honestly can't think of anything that was executed well in the entirety of this bonus chapter.

To me, it is the worst thing Toriyama ever created DB related and it isn't even close to being close.

Toriyama stated he liked Naho Ooishi's story as a way of respecting her. In an interview between her and him, she asked if we would see Bardock again, and he responded, "You really like Bardock don't you? Unfortunately, he's dead and too weak."
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -super-qa/


Episode of Bardock was released on Dec. 17, 2011 and DB Minus was released on April 4th, 2014. If we was really satisfied with the Episode of Bardock, why did he release his own version of the story? It's because he didn't imagine Bardock in the same way other authors did. He has a right to write his own story the way he sees it regardless of how fans like it or not.

He was also asked by Naho Ooishi about Bardock's personality. Toriyama said unlike other Saiyans who are cold-hearted, Bardock possess calm judgment and a small measure of humanity.


I mean he was directly asked about Bardock's personality right here. You're stating that you wanted Bardock to not be this "nice" person but more of a savage. Toriyama disagrees. Why do all saiyans have to be "savage"?

Also, you should not that most if not all of DB Minus will be incorporated in the upcoming movie so it will just reinforce that backstory.

[Master Xar]

Once again I don’t see how this is objectively bad. It’s a brief take on the Bardock Special. It’s meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date. Not every piece of a story has to be completely explained or fleshed out from the start. It leaves out plenty of potential for future events or stories to go over a explain any events Dragon Ball Minus may or may not bring to the forefront later on.

Okay, now you're trying to posit two contradictory things. I thought the defense was that this was a standalone bonus chapter. Now it's the gateway to new material? Really? It's been over four years since this thing came out. Obviously it appears that it will finally be addressed or referenced (however briefly) in the upcoming movie. But given how little we know about that, it's a bit presumptuous of you to state that "it's meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date." You're just making that up. You have no idea.

I don’t see how this isn’t anything not contributing to the discussion. It’s a valid point. Plenty of people get hooked on the original more than remakes, especially if the original was good. Dragonball Minus didn’t do anything to really change or crush the story as hard as people think. You see plenty of people just hating on it for bad or inexplicable reasons that I have pointed out. I don’t think this was a fair mod call-out here given that there are others on here that actually contributed less than him, this smells a bit biased here no offense

If you have something to say on the Dragonball Minus discussion just say it Mike. Don’t use your mod status like this.

No. It's not a valid point. It's an extremely misleading and reductive point. It's also inaccurate, at least in regards to the discussion in this forum, where people have brought forth pages' worth, if not novellas' worth, of criticism in regards to its storytelling (or lack thereof) and its problematic plot points. To reduce all of that to "you just don't like it because it's not the Bardock Special" is frustrating and, quite frankly, insulting. I'm not saying no one has made that argument, but to those of us who do bother to put forth legitimate criticisms, such arguments are even more annoying to us than they are to you, because they make us embarrassed by association. And also because there is so much fruit ripe for the picking that it seems incredibly lazy to fall back on that.

Now I'm not at all saying that it's invalid to draw comparisons between the two. For the very nature of the premise (doing a new take on an established character), that is to be completely expected. And if one take is infinitely better than the other, all it's going to do is draw attention to the other's shortcomings. But that doesn't boil down to "I hate this because it isn't the Bardock Special." It more boils down to "I hate this, and it's even more of a shame because we already have an example of this being done so well."

I can only speak for myself, but when I came into this chapter four years ago, I had no expectations of it being the Bardock Special. I didn't think it would be. I didn't want it to be. I was eager to see Toriyama's new take on this. I put all preconceptions out of my mind and read it and judged it on its own merits. And it was still terrible. And even after four years of writing and reflecting and analyzing and making videos on the subject, that opinion has not changed in the slightest.

So, yes, I definitely agree with Mike on this one. That kind of comment does not drive discussion forward. Maybe there are times when it's a legitimate complaint to make. But we've done more than enough, in this thread and countless others, to explain why we feel the way we do. You don't have to agree, and chances are you never will. That's fine. But it does make us feel like we're wasting our time putting effort into this discussion if we're just going to be met with such a dismissive rebuttal that ignores everything we've said.

Oh, and I see you've replied to my post as I've been writing this. Here we go:

Who is Bardock? You’re not supposed to know. Who is Gine? You are not supposed to know. It’s a brief overview of events. It’s a sample. A taste of what is there. Not the full course meal. It’s not trying to tell a story because that’s the entire point man. It’s a addendum like someone said. It fulfills it’s objective of explaining the events of what lead up to Planet Vegeta’s destruction. It does it’s job.

I'm not supposed to know? Then answer me why I'm supposed to like it. Why am I supposed to care? Why am I supposed to be entertained? This is such a backwards argument you're putting out here. Because you're basically defending this by saying, "It's supposed to suck! What's the problem?" And how can I defend against that? But as far as I see it, the point of any piece of fiction, any narrative, any STORY is to entertain me. What's entertaining about not knowing who the main character is or what his motivations are? And, yes, Bardock is the main characters of Dragon Ball Minus. I mean, I really don't even know what to say anymore, if the best defense you can come up with is to basically tell me that it being bad was the whole point. I mean, okay. Mission accomplished, I guess.

You keep claiming I'm looking at it from an angle that it's supposed to be something it's not. Well, I don't think it's supposed to be anything. You're the one who seems to keep assuming that it's "a setup for something grander" or some such. The only thing I think it, and any story is supposed to be, is good. And by good I mean engaging, entertaining, enlightening. Any of those three will do. Otherwise, what is the point? What is the point in wasting my time reading it if it's boring, half-cooked, meandering, and pandering, with no narrative drive or focus, no interesting characters, and ultimately damages some of the themes of the original story? Which leads me to...

As for your claim that it does not butcher the narrative of the Saiyan Arc, I wholeheartedly disagree. It completely screws up one of its most poignant and important themes. And just like in the Broli thread last week, I'm just going to have to quote myself, because I've written this far too many times.

But what really makes Dragon Ball Minus such a disgrace in my eyes is because of this exchange right here. Before they start fighting, Vegeta tries to rattle Goku by comparing their statuses in Saiyan society, saying that Goku should feel privileged to get to fight an elite, and that the whole reason Goku was sent to earth in the first place is because Saiyans are tested for combat aptitude at birth, and those with no promise are sent to subjugate weak planets like this one. However, Goku is unfazed by this insult. In fact, he says he's glad to have been considered trash because that was what allowed him to escape those very limitations his society had placed upon him. It taught him that hard work is more important than social status or a fate placed on him while he's still an infant.

Goku's journey this arc, aside from running back and forth along a boring snake, ties into finding out who he is. And it's nothing good. His native species are terrible people. His brother kidnaps his son. His other remaining kinsmen kill his friends. He's saved the world, but he was actually sent here to destroy it, and it was only through a lucky chance that that wasn't exactly what ended up happening. But that's exactly who Goku is. He's one of them. Except that he's not. Even as far back as his birth, his people rejected him, labeled him as nearly worthless, and shipped him off to do the only thing they judged him capable of doing. And that's the beautiful irony of it all. If they hadn't judged him to be inferior, he probably would have met the same fate as the rest of them and died. He certainly would never have saved earth and proven himself worthy to train under gods. Only because his fellow Saiyans concluded he had no potential did he manage to achieve it. And now he is face to face with the personification of that bigotry, and he is about to show him exactly what a low-born castoff can do and just how wrong they were about him. That despite their aspersions on him, he can be better than all of them. Unless of course you believe Dragon Ball Minus where his parents love him so much that they send him to earth so he can thrive, which is exactly what he ends up doing. Yawn. Toriyama admittedly flies by the seat of his pants, but I can't think of a greater example of where he seemingly came upon an amazing plot and character thread so serendipitously that he had no idea he did it and so never realized he was gleefully backing over it with a truck.

So it's bad enough that Dragon Ball Minus doesn't tell a story, doesn't include any real characters, and wastes a quarter of its already limited space dangling shiny things in front of the faces of its audience in the hopes of distracting them from noticing the lack of story and characters. But the fact that it tramples over perhaps the most beautiful thematic underpinnings Dragon Ball has ever presented in favor of a half-baked Superman ripoff that isn't even interesting in and of itself is its ultimate insult. The contrast between Goku and Vegeta forms the bedrock of their rivalry, which continues to be one of the most important aspects of the franchise to this day. And that conversation between them, before they take their iconic fighting stances, is what sets that in motion, what lays out that contrast. Dragon Ball Minus does not entirely destroy that premise. But it does damage it. Go ahead. Go back to the Saiyan Arc. Re-read what Vegeta says. And I already know what you're going to say: "Vegeta wasn't there. He doesn't know the real story. That's not a plot hole. Continuity is preserved." That's not the point. That's not what's important. What Vegeta says carries emotional weight. If you're having to keep a variation of the above quote in your head while you're reading that scene, you're having to dismiss what Vegeta says as incorrect. And because you're having to handwave it away as unimportant inaccuracies that aren't technically a plothole, those words are no longer resonating! They're being dismissed. They're being ignored. Their ramifications are being lost. Because Dragon Ball Minus told you they're not true. They're not worth taking seriously. And for what? Because we got to see Goku's mom. Whoopty-flippin-do.

1.) yes. It is meant to setup things for potential for the main story later on. That is the entire point of the past in any lore in a story. If it adds nothing to the main story in some form or another than it is basically a spinoff and is worthless in the grand scheme of the main plot. The more ambiguous it is, the more potential it has to be expanded on in key moments in the main story later on like the Super Saiyan lore was explored before the transformation. So no it isn’t “contradictory” ambiguity of events leaves far more potential to tell a story than everything being explained in detail. It limits story flexibility to avoid plotholes when everything is too tightly written, and/or overtly-complex.

Ambiguity and subtlety is KEY to storytelling and potential for later. Even with how generic Jiren’s backstory is, it’s ambiguity leaves potential for the future, why else are people so interested in the “evildoer” that killed Jiren’s parents? Ambiguity.


2.) You are not meant to care. You are not meant to be vastly entertained. This is a brief take on the events in The Bardock Special, and change the events and keep it simple and ambiguous to use that information inlay a later date. The pre-story is not the main story dude. The past and lore is meant to contextualize the main story and the roots/past of the characters. It’s not meant to be a story. Hell it’s not supposed to be that explained in the first place. Storytelling is telling the main story in the present everything else is extra.

3.) you are in favor of the original special and hold it up to a standard over Minus. You quite literally said in your last post that “it’s a not telling a story of revenge and betrayal” you still do in this post. You keep going on about how it’s supposed to be this fleshed out story like the original. The past is not supposed to be overly explained in any fictional medium. It is heavily discouraged to do that in storytelling. Minus opens up a lot more doors by being ambiguous with the past. The Bardock special while it is a well told story it has less potential for future events because it tells its events so thoroughly and fleshes out and explains more than Minus did.

4.) I said it before and I’ll say it again Dragonball Minus does little to nothing to ruin that narrative. The saiyans are still murderous pieces of shit, Earth is still acknowledged as a backwater garbage planet that would be easy for Goku to survive in. If anything it enhanced that narrative of Earth being a shit planet with Goku being an outcast, because unlike the other saiyans, Goku doesn’t have a set purpose to go out and conquer the planet. The planet he was sent to was completely on a whim and would be relatively easy to take over if he kept his saiyan instincts (which he didn’t) it vastly enhanced that narrative that Goku is the outcast, that he doesn’t have a purpose even by Saiyan standards.

[Gaffer Tape]

This thread and the posts just show me that once again it is a hatedom. A trend to hate without actually understanding the original intent to try to sound “critical” in that it’s objectively bad when it isn’t. The most you could argue is that it sort of makes Goku’s story more Superman-esque (thus less original) given that his parents actually care about him, but that’s really all.

And once again, you're just demonstrating how you're sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to anyone other than those that support your viewpoint. Again, I don't care if you agree. But if you can't get any more out of this thread than that, then you're either incapable or unwilling to actually read what anybody else is writing. And, seriously, who are you to presume you and you alone understand what "the original intent" is? Did Toriyama tell you in person what the intent is? If not, you're really not in a position to tell anyone else that they don't understand the intent just because we don't like it.

You are not meant to care. You are not meant to be vastly entertained.

And I just don't get this! At all! This should be an endgame statement right here. Again, you're the one defending this pile of dreck, and the highest praise you can give it is admitting it's neither engaging nor entertaining. In other words... IT'S BAD! What are you even trying to prove at this point? It's not bad because it's bad? I mean, geez. I don't need to criticize Minus anymore. You're doing a better job of making it look unappealing than I ever could. "You Are Not Meant to Care. You Are Not Meant to be Vastly Entertained." Boy, if that doesn't sum up Minus in a nutshell, I don't know what does. I'm just not sure if that works better as the official marketing slogan or as a warning to those considering reading it.

You keep going on about how it’s supposed to be this fleshed out story like the original.

No, I'm not. It's not supposed to be a fleshed out story because the original was a fleshed out story. It's supposed to be a fleshed out story because that's the point of telling a story. If the story is not fleshed out, that means it is not effectively presenting its ideas and concepts. It's skimming. It's being lazy. It's not resonating. And I don't know why I'm even writing any of this at this point, because any criticism I'm going to bring up is something you're going to respond to by saying something that essentially boils down to, "Well, it's supposed to be bad. You expecting it to be good is placing unfair expectations on it. But stop saying that it's bad because you're just being a hater."

This is pointless. I'm beginning to think you didn't start this thread to have a discussion or debate. You just want your view parroted back at you. And anyone who disagrees is just "being a hater" or "doesn't understand." Please, please feel free to prove me wrong. I mean, I'd much rather be debating the plot points of Minus and whether or not they hold any merit. But instead I find myself having to justify why I'm even allowed to have a negative opinion in the first place and engaging in head-spinning logic puzzles that Minus isn't bad because it's not supposed to be good.

[Master Xar]

This thread and the posts just show me that once again it is a hatedom. A trend to hate without actually understanding the original intent to try to sound “critical” in that it’s objectively bad when it isn’t. The most you could argue is that it sort of makes Goku’s story more Superman-esque (thus less original) given that his parents actually care about him, but that’s really all.

And once again, you're just demonstrating how you're sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to anyone other than those that support your viewpoint. Again, I don't care if you agree. But if you can't get any more out of this thread than that, then you're either incapable or unwilling to actually read what anybody else is writing. And, seriously, who are you to presume you and you alone understand what "the original intent" is? Did Toriyama tell you in person what the intent is? If not, you're really not in a position to tell anyone else that they don't understand the intent just because we don't like it.

You are not meant to care. You are not meant to be vastly entertained.

And I just don't get this! At all! This should be an endgame statement right here. Again, you're the one defending this pile of dreck, and the highest praise you can give it is admitting it's neither engaging nor entertaining. In other words... IT'S BAD! What are you even trying to prove at this point? It's not bad because it's bad? I mean, geez. I don't need to criticize Minus anymore. You're doing a better job of making it look unappealing than I ever could. "You Are Not Meant to Care. You Are Not Meant to be Vastly Entertained." Boy, if that doesn't sum up Minus in a nutshell, I don't know what does. I'm just not sure if that works better as the official marketing slogan or as a warning to those considering reading it.

You keep going on about how it’s supposed to be this fleshed out story like the original.

No, I'm not. It's not supposed to be a fleshed out story because the original was a fleshed out story. It's supposed to be a fleshed out story because that's the point of telling a story. If the story is not fleshed out, that means it is not effectively presenting its ideas and concepts. It's skimming. It's being lazy. It's not resonating. And I don't know why I'm even writing any of this at this point, because any criticism I'm going to bring up is something you're going to respond to by saying something that essentially boils down to, "Well, it's supposed to be bad. You expecting it to be good is placing unfair expectations on it. But stop saying that it's bad because you're just being a hater."

This is pointless. I'm beginning to think you didn't start this thread to have a discussion or debate. You just want your view parroted back at you. And anyone who disagrees is just "being a hater" or "doesn't understand." Please, please feel free to prove me wrong.

1.) no I could tell by looking at it, and that it’s a short story. Of course I don’t know Toriyama personally dude, that is suffice to say you don’t either with the “Saiyan Saga narrative.” Art and storytelling is left up to interpretation up that point since it’s a faulty argument.
Dude nobody here gave me any legitimate objective reasons as to why it’s bad, yours are still completely subjective in that you want it to be a fleshed-out story (which again is bad storytelling since this is a pre-story)

2.) nice strawman dude. I already explained in the post you just fucking quoted. I’m here to have a discussion. If you aren’t going to reply to the full post don’t bother in the first place. I’m not going to repeat myself so read it again and reply in full I don’t time for petty nonsense. If you don’t get it...

A.) You don’t know how storytelling works.
B.) You are biased in favor of the Bardock special.
C.) you don’t want to discuss and reply to my full argument because you have nothing to say to reply.

Pick one.

3.) another strawman. Stop taking out snippets and reply to the whole thing to make my point “easier” to reply to since you want to take me out of context. I’m not going to bother discussing with you if you are going to do this repeatedly. Read it again/Reply in full context of my point or don’t bother.


I didn’t. No one has anything objective here to say besides shadowfox. You are starting to strawman me and take me out of context to not look bad. But sure let’s come up with this narrative now when you are losing the argument so you could leave on the moral high ground

[Jackalope89]

I like Minus, whether or not others do, whatever. You're free to disagree with me.

Bardock is still a Space Pirate that has no qualms about slaughtering other sentient life, but yet, as depicted in Father of Goku, actually cares for fellow Saiyans. Minus just happens to extend that to his family. Bardock also just happens to catch on that its fishy that all Saiyans are being recalled back from assignments at the same time, and figures something awful is about to happen. Rather than magically being gifted the ability of foresight because, deus ex machina.

Its a short chapter, and fine for what it is. Not to mention it finally answered the long-wondered question of who Goku's mother was. Which would also explain, not only Goku's more friendly personality, but also how Gohan doesn't like to fight. And the head injury Goku took wiped away what few memories he had of Planet Vegeta.

[Cipher]

I do think it harms the story thematically, but for its length and presentation (not to mention two-decade removal from the original run and connection to another work), I also find it difficult to get worked up over. The most I might say is that Toriyama didn't need to include it or might have found a more interesting use for fifteen or so pages, Dragon Ball-related or otherwise.

[Master Xar]

Look I’m coming from this at a storytelling perspective and being fair to what it is. People like Gaffer (I just saw his video on Minus as “MistareFusion”

have the same general opinion that “more explanation and more story = better storytelling” and that it’s supposed to be some big story when it isn’t supposed to be in the first place. It’s a short story that quickly goes over the events of The Bardock Special from Toriyama’s take. In that layout of intent it isn’t meant to be a big fleshed out story nor is it objectively bad for doing so. You could prefer or want a more fleshed out story, but again there is little to no in-story inconsistency, plot-holes, bad dialogue, etc.

It isn’t a story and that’s the fucking point. It’s a short 15 page manga just going over the events. From a storytelling perspective this is far better as a setup from a pre-story, short, sweet, and to the point. It leaves things and events ambiguous from the fast pace that can be used later on in the actual story in the present. Past snippets or events not have to do with the main story aren’t part of the main story.
Mistare argued how it was the “backstory to Goku” when it really only is him before and a bit after the destruction of Vegeta

My point being that it gets too much crap for what it is. That too many people were expecting some big story here when they were hungry for Dragonball material and they have sour grapes because they didn’t get what they wanted.

[Shiro97]

Look I’m coming from this at a storytelling perspective and being fair to what it is. People like Gaffer (I just saw his video on Minus as “MistareFusion”

have the same general opinion that “more explanation and more story = better storytelling” and that it’s supposed to be some big story when it isn’t supposed to be in the first place. It’s a short story that quickly goes over the events of The Bardock Special from Toriyama’s take. In that layout of intent it isn’t meant to be a big fleshed out story nor is it objectively bad for doing so. You could prefer or want a more fleshed out story, but again there is little to no in-story inconsistency, plot-holes, bad dialogue, etc.

It isn’t a story and that’s the fucking point. It’s a short 15 page manga just going over the events. From a storytelling perspective this is far better as a setup from a pre-story, short, sweet, and to the point. It leaves things and events ambiguous from the fast pace that can be used later on in the actual story in the present. Past snippets or events not have to do with the main story aren’t part of the main story.
Mistare argued how it was the “backstory to Goku” when it really only is him before and a bit after the destruction of Vegeta

My point being that it gets too much crap for what it is. That too many people were expecting some big story here when they were hungry for Dragonball material and they have sour grapes because they didn’t get what they wanted.

What even is your "storytelling perspective" because i'm getting really mixed messages as to what you actually think a story should and shouldn't be, and more to the point how can you be fair about what it is. It isn't anything, it's just a bunch of stuff that happens and then it ends as abruptly as it starts. You're none the wiser as to who anyone is or why it is that they came to the conclusions they did. What's the point in that. Calling it a setup or pre-story doesn't help it either, what is it even setting up?

I just don't really get where you're coming from with all this. What's not to be mad about. All Dragon Ball Minus is is supplementary material disguised as a story, and a pretty shitty one at that.

[KBABZ]

I disagree with people who dislike DB- for their stated reasons, but this thread is in no way a hatedom.

[Master Xar]

Look I’m coming from this at a storytelling perspective and being fair to what it is. People like Gaffer (I just saw his video on Minus as “MistareFusion”

have the same general opinion that “more explanation and more story = better storytelling” and that it’s supposed to be some big story when it isn’t supposed to be in the first place. It’s a short story that quickly goes over the events of The Bardock Special from Toriyama’s take. In that layout of intent it isn’t meant to be a big fleshed out story nor is it objectively bad for doing so. You could prefer or want a more fleshed out story, but again there is little to no in-story inconsistency, plot-holes, bad dialogue, etc.

It isn’t a story and that’s the fucking point. It’s a short 15 page manga just going over the events. From a storytelling perspective this is far better as a setup from a pre-story, short, sweet, and to the point. It leaves things and events ambiguous from the fast pace that can be used later on in the actual story in the present. Past snippets or events not have to do with the main story aren’t part of the main story.
Mistare argued how it was the “backstory to Goku” when it really only is him before and a bit after the destruction of Vegeta

My point being that it gets too much crap for what it is. That too many people were expecting some big story here when they were hungry for Dragonball material and they have sour grapes because they didn’t get what they wanted.

What even is your "storytelling perspective" because i'm getting really mixed messages as to what you actually think a story should and shouldn't be, and more to the point how can you be fair about what it is. It isn't anything, it's just a bunch of stuff that happens and then it ends as abruptly as it starts. You're none the wiser as to who anyone is or why it is that they came to the conclusions they did. What's the point in that. Calling it a setup or pre-story doesn't help it either, what is it even setting up?

I just don't really get where you're coming from with all this. What's not to be mad about. All Dragon Ball Minus is is supplementary material disguised as a story, and a pretty shitty one at that.

Because it just does what it should in those 15 pages. Go over the events in the pace it can give in those 15 pages. It’s meant to give a basic overview and explain the setup and plot points for later events like The Saiyan Saga, builds up on things that weren’t introduced meta-wise like SSJG. It leaves a lot unexplained so that the story isn’t locked down by potential plot-holes in the current story. it’s a short story meant to contextualize the later events. The past being left ambiguous let’s writer have more flexibility to bring up new villains like Broly, other saiyans, Freeza, etc. without creating risk of plotholes

It hits the key points that without creating many if not at any at all objective writing faults besides the Superman-esque thing, but still very egregious as it being a short story doesn’t have room to flesh that out to make it it’s own. The more you summarize something, the less outright unique it’ll be. You can’t always see a story as this big fleshed out thing with all major plot points and established characters. You can’t expect that in a short story nor can you say it’s objectively bad for doing so.

It is a simple 15 page story and I feel there is nothing wrong with going that direction.

[Master Xar]

I disagree with people who dislike DB- for their stated reasons, but this thread is in no way a hatedom.

I felt that it was because I had asked what was wrong with Minus for doing what it was doing with it’s intentions and people just keep repeating “it’s just so bad... because” without offering anything of substance to it. People can have their opinions of it for not liking the Minus manga’s direction with Bardock’s personality, the ages, art style, etc. that’s all fine with me. But at the end of the day I made this thread to call-out anyone who says the Dragon Ball Minus is bad from a an objective writing, and storytelling perspective and no one is offering any insight on that.

[Captain-Sora]

Thanks for responding to my previous point. I guess this means I did contribute to the discussion. Yes, I understand your point. You didn't want Goku to be sent to Earth intentionally with the same backstory as Superman because you previously had established that Goku was sent to Earth to conquer it. However, as Goku is a baby, he would have no understanding of what Bardock and Gine were doing. He was confused even when he said bye to them. As DB starts, we know that Goku was a violent kid until he hit his head. Therefore, the initial story of Goku conquering Earth may still hold true if he didn't hit his head. I mean, he did kill his Grandpa Gohan in Oozaru afterall.

The possibility of Goku still wrecking everything is besides the point. At the end of the day, the people sending him there are still doing it for the sake of protecting him as well as hoping he DOESN'T ruin everything, which still ultimately takes away from the aforementioned irony behind Goku's development into a savior.

I don't agree with your second point. You find it unusual that Gine is a softhearted and an out of ordinary saiyan, but how can we even say that? Every Saiyan is different with a different personality. Why do we have to classify every saiyan as "hardhearted" and brutal. She was the first real female Saiyan we saw. Giving Goku a mother was nice. In the end, regardless of what they told Goku, he did look at the moon, so the point was mute.

The news leading up to Minus established that Gine was a peculiar case, with Toriyama describing Goku's mother as an atypical Saiyan. Just because there's the possibility other of outliers doesn't suddenly make her that much less unique if she's still made out to be unusual. The point is that she and her whole relationship with Bardock are made out to be special for the sake of being special. The issues behind who she is and the actions she and Bardock made are not rendered moot just because Goku didn't pay heed to their words.

The events that led up to Bardock fighting in space can STILL happen after the events of DB Minus. We have no idea what Bardock did after Goku was sent off. Remember that there are two panels of Bardock in space as a flashback in Chapter 307 of the DBZ manga, so it is canon and it did happen. DB Minus doesn't contradict that.

I KNOW that there are panels of his end in the manga. I outright stated that the manga referenced it. What I didn't state was that I wish the events of the special still happened, so I don't know where you're going with this or how it helps to alleviate the issues I have with Minus when they're still present, whether Bardock's situation depicted in the special still more or less happened or not.

I would argue that them thinking different perfectly explains why Goku survived in the first place. In the original special, a big plot-hole is that apparently Goku was sent out while Frieza was ordering everyone back; either those two scientists were defying orders, or there are hundreds of other worlds with unrecalled baby Saiyan pods, which sort of spoils Goku and Vegeta being the last Saiyans, not to mention the story later bending over backwards having to explain how other Saiyans survived like with Broly, Trunks and the Super trio. With Minus, Bardock and Gine thinking differently from other Saiyans is why they send Goku away, when every other Saiyan just blindly follows orders. If the two were like other Saiyans, they wouldn't have sent Goku away to begin with.

That's not a plot-hole, just an oversight made by Freeza. The message sent was intended for the Saiyans out doing their job, telling them to head on home. Freeza isn't that overly concerned about destroying EVERY single Saiyan in existence. His main fear are them all banding together and rebelling with great numbers. Having a couple in his control isn't as much of a concern, and he can pick them off later if he really wants to. It was also the special that depicted Goku being sent out while Freeza's plan was being set in motion, so if we were to ignore it and focus solely on the manga, it's quite plausible Goku could've been sent out before any commands were given anyway.

Gine's softer personality to me also semi-explains why Goku has a softer personality after hitting his head; he got that from his mother.

That would render Goku as someone who is inherently different and special compared to other Saiyans, which would make it worse, not better for me. It would make it seem as if his bump on the head merely "triggered" something always inside of him, and that it was pretty much destined to happen.

[Cipher]

I felt that it was because I had asked what was wrong with Minus for doing what it was doing with it’s intentions and people just keep repeating “it’s just so bad... because” without offering anything of substance to it. People can have their opinions of it for not liking the Minus manga’s direction with Bardock’s personality, the ages, art style, etc. that’s all fine with me. But at the end of the day I made this thread to call-out anyone who says the Dragon Ball Minus is bad from a an objective writing, and storytelling perspective and no one is offering any insight on that.

I've seen nothing but people do exactly that, over both paragraphs and videos.

It is bad writing; it is bad storytelling. Events are given to us without structure, payoff, or even, really, an attempt at investment. Bardock and Gine are ciphers. It's pure exposition.

This happens to not bother me a great deal, because I find it hard to take much issue with roughly a dozen pages of bonus expository content connected to a larger story--in neither marketing nor content is there any attempt to disconnect it from the greater series it serves as a prequel anecdote to--but I also can't fault anyone for taking more issue than I do with the fact that it's essentially a Wikipedia paragraph. Toriyama's a master of doing actual stories, allowing for attachment to, and payoff from, new characters within the same page space, so it's not as if he had to go with the purely expository mode he did.

That said exposition also isn't interesting nor capable of providing thematically helpful context for the greater story is another mark against it. While I can't understand being too fussed over it, I can certainly understand the sentiment behind singling it out as Toriyama's worst short (if indeed it should even be considered its own short--but then the context only changes whether it's an unfortunate stand-alone or an unfortunate extra chapter in a larger work).

[Shiro97]

Look I’m coming from this at a storytelling perspective and being fair to what it is. People like Gaffer (I just saw his video on Minus as “MistareFusion”

have the same general opinion that “more explanation and more story = better storytelling” and that it’s supposed to be some big story when it isn’t supposed to be in the first place. It’s a short story that quickly goes over the events of The Bardock Special from Toriyama’s take. In that layout of intent it isn’t meant to be a big fleshed out story nor is it objectively bad for doing so. You could prefer or want a more fleshed out story, but again there is little to no in-story inconsistency, plot-holes, bad dialogue, etc.

It isn’t a story and that’s the fucking point. It’s a short 15 page manga just going over the events. From a storytelling perspective this is far better as a setup from a pre-story, short, sweet, and to the point. It leaves things and events ambiguous from the fast pace that can be used later on in the actual story in the present. Past snippets or events not have to do with the main story aren’t part of the main story.
Mistare argued how it was the “backstory to Goku” when it really only is him before and a bit after the destruction of Vegeta

My point being that it gets too much crap for what it is. That too many people were expecting some big story here when they were hungry for Dragonball material and they have sour grapes because they didn’t get what they wanted.

What even is your "storytelling perspective" because i'm getting really mixed messages as to what you actually think a story should and shouldn't be, and more to the point how can you be fair about what it is. It isn't anything, it's just a bunch of stuff that happens and then it ends as abruptly as it starts. You're none the wiser as to who anyone is or why it is that they came to the conclusions they did. What's the point in that. Calling it a setup or pre-story doesn't help it either, what is it even setting up?

I just don't really get where you're coming from with all this. What's not to be mad about. All Dragon Ball Minus is is supplementary material disguised as a story, and a pretty shitty one at that.

Because it just does what it should in those 15 pages. Go over the events in the pace it can give in those 15 pages. It’s meant to give a basic overview and explain the setup and plot points for later events like The Saiyan Saga, builds up on things that weren’t introduced meta-wise like SSJG. It leaves a lot unexplained so that the story isn’t locked down by potential plot-holes in the current story. it’s a short story meant to contextualize the later events. The past being left ambiguous let’s writer have more flexibility to bring up new villains like Broly, other saiyans, Freeza, etc. without creating risk of plotholes

It hits the key points that without creating many if not at any at all objective writing faults besides the Superman-esque thing, but still very egregious as it being a short story doesn’t have room to flesh that out to make it it’s own. The more you summarize something, the less outright unique it’ll be. You can’t always see a story as this big fleshed out thing with all major plot points and established characters. You can’t expect that in a short story nor can you say it’s objectively bad for doing so.

It is a simple 15 page story and I feel there is nothing wrong with going that direction.

But it isn't a story, it doesn't tell you anything. It just relays information to you and you're supposed to give a shit because it goes with the assumption that you already know all of it anyway. I mean just for the sake of argument, if had read Jaco without any prior knowledge of DragonBall and then came to the end and read Dragon Ball Minus. What would I have to take away from that? There's some dude called Bardock and some guy called Freeza, I have no idea who they are or why I should care about what it is they're doing because they story doesn't care enough to tell me.

Point I'm trying to make is that it sucks at being a story in and of it's self and it also sucks at being a competent backstory for DragonBall. All this hot air about it being more ambiguous so as to set up things for later just sounds like a flimsy excuse because it doesn't really contextualise later events either. Sure Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God but it isn't relevant to either Dragon Ball Minus or Battle of Gods apart from the form appearing in the latter, but Freeza isn't present in that story nor is it really all that relevant when he does show up.

[Master Xar]

I felt that it was because I had asked what was wrong with Minus for doing what it was doing with it’s intentions and people just keep repeating “it’s just so bad... because” without offering anything of substance to it. People can have their opinions of it for not liking the Minus manga’s direction with Bardock’s personality, the ages, art style, etc. that’s all fine with me. But at the end of the day I made this thread to call-out anyone who says the Dragon Ball Minus is bad from a an objective writing, and storytelling perspective and no one is offering any insight on that.

I've seen nothing but people do exactly that, over both paragraphs and videos.

It is bad writing; it is bad storytelling. Events are given to us without structure, payoff, or even, really, an attempt at investment. Bardock and Gine are ciphers. It's pure exposition.

This happens to not bother me a great deal, because I find it hard to take much issue with roughly a dozen pages of bonus expository content connected to a larger story--in neither marketing nor content is there any attempt to disconnect it from the greater series it serves as a prequel anecdote to--but I also can't fault anyone for taking more issue than I do with the fact that it's essentially a Wikipedia paragraph. Toriyama's a master of doing actual stories, allowing for attachment to, and payoff from, new characters within the same page space, so it's not as if he had to go with the purely expository mode he did.

That said exposition also isn't interesting nor capable of providing thematically helpful context for the greater story is another mark against it. While I can't understand being too fussed over it, I can certainly understand the sentiment behind singling it out as Toriyama's worst short (if indeed it should even be considered its own short--but then the context only changes whether it's an unfortunate stand-alone or an unfortunate extra chapter in a larger work).

Again. Most of that is still subjective.

It is a short story meant to give more context on the future events. It gives a basic insight on things like how his parents were as people. How Freeza has gathered all the Saiyans on the planet at once so he didn’t miss any. Where Vegeta and Raditz were on all this. Giving more build-up and context on SSJG and give Freeza more reason to be paranoid. Raditz’s information being egregious (and yes while DB- ended after that point it’s still a point.)

You aren’t meant to get that invested if at all since it is a short story. People keep looking at it as if it’s meant to be a long one. It is mostly an exposition dump from the lack of room to flesh out a full-blown story, but again I see no fault in that since it’s just going for explaining the events of of Planet Vegeta’s destruction in 15 pages as a bonus chapter to a manga he was already currently working on.

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat it. Minus does nothing objectively wrong. It is a short story meant to inform, and give a quick background on Planet Vegeta destruction in 15 pages. That is it. Not to entertain or tell a big story. It is essentially a short guidebook on the past and there is nothing wrong in doing that, you can not like that direction, but that’s still subjective. Pre-story story is not the main story, it can enhance it in some form, but really have an “exposition dump” isn’t an innately bad thing.