Dragon Ball Minus is not bad.

[Master Xar]

Problem is that Minus' biggest faults (beyond being not much of a story) are completely separate from the special. Had the TV Special not existed, people would still definitely take issue with the problematic aspects of the short. Goku's parents being rendered unusual compared to the rest of their kin for the sake of making them feel extraordinary, and undermining the themes of the Saiyan arc (which is obviously NOT the original Bardock story) are issues that would still remain.

The issue here is a lack of understanding WHY people don't like those things. It isn't simply because people hate retroactive continuity or that we're simply being anal about how Saiyans as a whole should behave (the idea of a softhearted Saiyan in itself isn't bad, it's just WHO was conveniently made to be one of the exceptions). It's about how we don't want Goku to be elevated on some pedestal where he was practically destined to be a good natured savior. Fiction (ESPECIALLY modern Shonen anime) is saturated with stories about how the main character is connected to these out of the norm and noteworthy people, giving the impression that them becoming the hero was "always meant to be." It's TIRESOME.

Goku had an already perfect origin that acts as a subversion to the Moses/Superman-esque beginnings. He was someone NOT meant for great things. He was someone intended to raze the world he grew up on. To Earth, he was intended to be one of its worst nightmares, and to Planet Vegeta, he was slated to grow up as a nobody. However, he was able to rise above those notions and outshined those who prided themselves over being part of a superior stock. Minus takes everything away from that by painting him as precious star child who was blessed enough to have a father who somehow knew better than all the rest, and a conveniently softhearted, loving mom. He was saved BECAUSE his family was different and special. That's just disheartening as hell and it utterly bulldozes the great developments presented in the Saiyan arc. NOT THE BARDOCK SPECIAL, the SAIYAN ARC.

1.) A Simple and Quick story isn’t any better or worse or less of a story than long and complex one.

2.) And I don’t like the idea of them being “ Special “ is any better or worse. Saiyans have never been these “destined to always be evil” alien warriors. Vegeta didn’t hit his head and he changed, the same could’ve happened with Bardock and Gine (which is to they aren’t necessarily “good” namely Bardock) and it happened so that they could have leaved. The simple fact is... even in the Original Bardock Special and the circumstances around it, they were ALREADY special as Saiyans. Think about it. Bardock is one of the only FEW Saiyans to have a power level of over 10,000, not even Nappa was that high and he was an elite
Do you know who else is low-class who surpassed an elite with hard work and training? Goku. So I suppose that was destined to happen in the first place since Bardock so too now wasn’t it?
He was the only one. On multiple man team (which he is the sole survivor of, against fucking Dodoria who conveniently didn’t hit him hard enough to kill him or make sure he was dead). On one planet. With ONE SPECIFIC RACE. And ONE SPECIFIC POWER. Gained Psychic. Fucking. Powers to be the ONE SAIYAN outside of
King Vegeta and his crew to rebel against Freeza. AFTER he gave a fair warning to a WHOLE ROOM of Saiyans All conveniently within the time frame of right before the explosion of Planet Vegeta. He is the SOLE main character of the story and the ONE parent shown.

If anything Minus made him less “special” than he already was in The Bardock Special and if we take the BARDOCK TV SPECIAL and Heroes into account (even though they aren’t canon, but still) he already was more “special” than he could ever be. There is no more “conveniences” to make him more or less special. We aren’t confirmed if his power level of being higher than an elite class. He has no special powers, but deduces or has suspicions of Freeza gathering the Saiyans back on planet (which his partner does too so unless I’m missing something he isn’t the only one to rebel like in the movie) which means he has less conveniences. He isn’t the sole parent shown. He isn’t the only one suspicious of Freeza.

Outside of showing that he actually cares about his family (and showing the results aka sneaking Goku off-planet) he isn’t any more or less special than he already was beforehand.

[Doctor.]

Again, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by sticking to this "I'm just being objective!" narrative. You're not discussing anything. Like Cipher said, the only thing that is objective about Minus is that it's a 16-page comic written by Akira Toriyama in 2014. Those are the only facts in this entire discussion. You're not really "informing" anyone about how storytelling works because you don't seem to have a grasp on it yourself; if you did, you'd realize how pointless and redundant your entire thread is and you'd also realize that proper discussion can only happen when discussing and comparing opinions, and hoping to persuade one another.

[Master Xar]

Again, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by sticking to this "I'm just being objective!" narrative. You're not discussing anything. Like Cipher said, the only thing that is objective about Minus is that it's a 16-page comic written by Akira Toriyama in 2014. Those are the only facts in this entire discussion. You're not really "informing" anyone about how storytelling works because you don't seem to have a grasp on it yourself; if you did, you'd realize how pointless and redundant your entire thread is and you'd also realize that proper discussion can only happen when discussing and comparing opinions, and hoping to persuade one another.

Just did in the comment above. And offered about why it isn’t any better or worse. The criticism and argument for them being “special” is a logical fallacy and clearly biased.

[Doctor.]

Just did in the comment above. And offered about why it isn’t any better or worse. The criticism and argument for them being “special” is a logical fallacy and clearly biased.

No, you brought up the Bardock special. I don't care about discussing the Bardock special. You can't disregard the Bardock special throughout this entire thread when someone compares Minus to it, then fall back on it once it fits your narrative; that's not how it works. We're discussing Minus on its own merits and how it affects the way the Saiyan arc is read.

[Master Xar]

Just did in the comment above. And offered about why it isn’t any better or worse. The criticism and argument for them being “special” is a logical fallacy and clearly biased.

No, you brought up the Bardock special. I don't care about discussing the Bardock special. You can't disregard the Bardock special throughout this entire thread when someone compares Minus to it, then fall back on it once it fits your narrative; that's not how it works. We're discussing Minus on its own merits and how it affects the way the Saiyan arc is read.

You weren’t involved in the argument to understand the context, he was using the faulty, double standard argument that Bardock being “special” had somehow ruined the story with Minus when The Bardock Special was ALREADY Special, but it is somehow held to it supporting The Saiyan Arcs theme of the “special” vs “non-special” theme... cuz he ain’t special... what kind of backwards ass logic is that?

Here is something better for thought. Do it yourself and quit asking me. Look at Minus without having the already “established” themes and narrative in your mind, and build your own opinion and interpretation of the themes from what DB- adds or changes to The Saiyan Saga or what have you and THEN say if you preferred the Original. Quit repeating the same arguments and form your own opinion without acknowledging what you already have built in your mind. My reason for creating this thread is to show that the same arguments I could use for saying DB- is trash is the exact same arguments I could use for the Special.

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

Dragon Ball Minus is garbage, because it contradicts the own original manga and what the fans have known about Goku's past for 20+ years.

Goku wasn't sent away when he was a baby, but when he was 3 years old:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

He wasn't sent away to conquer Earth because he was a low class, but because his parents wanted to protect him.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
It's trash and according to Superman fans it makes Goku's backstory even more similarly with Superman's. The only good thing about it is Gine but that doesn't make up for it, and overall it's just another unnecessary retcon from Toriyama after have been away for so long.

Well according to some biological and maternal book about IRL kids and how to raise them, said that you are still a baby at 3 years old so no there no contradiction, as for Raditz narrative the last time he saw him was still in his tube pod at home naked, so it's still makes sens as for knowing his location well if the Galactique Patrol knew that a Saiyan baby was sent to earth I guess Raditz can know that too, and there was still one month left until the destruction of former planet plant.

Vegeta and Raditz were in the assumption that Goku was sent to eradicate Earth human but that wasn't the kind and they weren't aware of that, because they are not omniscient.

I don't see any contradiction with your pictures as exemple for Minus it fits with the Saiyan saga. As for the similarities with Superman I really don't care because in the end Goku is not a superman at all whether in terms of power or mentality. So who the hell cares !

[Captain-Sora]

And I don’t like the idea of them being “ Special “ is any better or worse. Saiyans have never been these “destined to always be evil” alien warriors. Vegeta didn’t hit his head and he changed, the same could’ve happened with Bardock and Gine (which is to they aren’t necessarily “good” namely Bardock) and it happened so that they could have leaved. The simple fact is... even in the Original Bardock Special and the circumstances around it, they were ALREADY special as Saiyans. Think about it. Bardock is one of the only FEW Saiyans to have a power level of over 10,000, not even Nappa was that high and he was an elite
Do you know who else is low-class who surpassed an elite with hard work and training? Goku. So I suppose that was destined to happen in the first place since Bardock so too now wasn’t it?
He was the only one. On multiple man team (which he is the sole survivor of, against fucking Dodoria who conveniently didn’t hit him hard enough to kill him or make sure he was dead). On one planet. With ONE SPECIFIC RACE. And ONE SPECIFIC POWER. Gained Psychic. Fucking. Powers to be the ONE SAIYAN outside of
King Vegeta and his crew to rebel against Freeza. AFTER he gave a fair warning to a WHOLE ROOM of Saiyans All conveniently within the time frame of right before the explosion of Planet Vegeta. He is the SOLE main character of the story and the ONE parent shown.

Noting the parts where the special slipped up DOESN'T alleviate the problems with Minus. It just points out how the special itself is guilty of its own issues, which I myself had already noted beforehand. I had already highlighted how convenient it was that Goku's father just happened to be the one to go up and face Freeza alone, so you're not telling me anything new here.

As it's been repeatedly said, the major problems with Minus are the effects it has on the original story, NOT how it measures up to the special and how it handles Bardock by comparison.

[DBZAOTA482]

You're right, it's not bad. It's HORRENDOUS!!!

[Master Xar]

And I don’t like the idea of them being “ Special “ is any better or worse. Saiyans have never been these “destined to always be evil” alien warriors. Vegeta didn’t hit his head and he changed, the same could’ve happened with Bardock and Gine (which is to they aren’t necessarily “good” namely Bardock) and it happened so that they could have leaved. The simple fact is... even in the Original Bardock Special and the circumstances around it, they were ALREADY special as Saiyans. Think about it. Bardock is one of the only FEW Saiyans to have a power level of over 10,000, not even Nappa was that high and he was an elite
Do you know who else is low-class who surpassed an elite with hard work and training? Goku. So I suppose that was destined to happen in the first place since Bardock so too now wasn’t it?
He was the only one. On multiple man team (which he is the sole survivor of, against fucking Dodoria who conveniently didn’t hit him hard enough to kill him or make sure he was dead). On one planet. With ONE SPECIFIC RACE. And ONE SPECIFIC POWER. Gained Psychic. Fucking. Powers to be the ONE SAIYAN outside of
King Vegeta and his crew to rebel against Freeza. AFTER he gave a fair warning to a WHOLE ROOM of Saiyans All conveniently within the time frame of right before the explosion of Planet Vegeta. He is the SOLE main character of the story and the ONE parent shown.

Noting the parts where the special slipped up DOESN'T alleviate the problems with Minus. It just points out how the special itself is guilty of its own issues, which I myself had already noted beforehand. I had already highlighted how convenient it was that Goku's father just happened to be the one to go up and face Freeza alone, so you're not telling me anything new here.

As it's been repeatedly said, the major problems with Minus are the effects it has on the original story, NOT how it measures up to the special and how it handles Bardock by comparison.

I’m not saying that either. I’m saying that if we’re judging both under the rule that “neither can or cannot support/ruin the theme of The Saiyan Arc” then they BOTH ruin it with Bardock being “special” in ANY way. I could say what is worse for one than the other.

Now you ask me. “If Bardock isn’t special or different in any way, why is he the focus of the backstory.”

And that’s the point. He shouldn’t have been the main character as this special shouldn’t have been made at all and that’s why I say “Show, Don’t Tell (in this case being the destruction of Planet Vegeta) was not needed, it supplements at takes away from the theme in their own ways, as it only served to ruin The Saiyan Arc’s theme and enhance it in their own ways, ultimately still take it away and would be better if neither was made in the first place from a storytelling perspective.

Minus enhances the theme more because the story is short, Bardock is FAR less special, the only thing special about him is that he is Goku’s Father, slightly more human than the rest, and has a pure-hearted wife. He isn’t stronger than an elite as far as we know, he has no special powers, he isn’t the only one to rebel, and isn’t the focus of some fleshed out story. It works it’s them far better than The Original Bardock Special where he is even MORE special than DB- Bardock.

Again this is going on the theme and narrative, that Goku is some form of non-special trash with zero potential with no bloodline tied to his power or who he is as a person outside of being a Saiyan, going against an elite warrior that is his opposite.

BOTH should not have been made as they are a “tell” of what Goku’s father is and ruins the themed The Saiyan Saga from that light. Backstory works absolutely best when it is short and sweet, and that’s why DB- works as better backstory for the main plot. It doesn’t ruin the narrative of Goku being special as much as The Bardock Special did.

Now from a story perspective is DB- worse than The Bardock Special? Objectively no. It’s all in what you prefer. But if we’re going by this idea that they “enhance” the themes of the Saiyan Saga DB- works far better BECAUSE it is short and not a story, if neither was made at all The Theme would be completely intact as far as The Saiyan Saga goes.

[Master Xar]

You're right, it's not bad. It's HORRENDOUS!!!

Nice how you add nothing to the discussion did you come here to shout useless statements or did you come here to discuss?

[DBZAOTA482]

You're right, it's not bad. It's HORRENDOUS!!!

Nice how you add nothing to the discussion did you come here to shout useless statements or did you come here to discuss?

Okay... *cracks knucles* you want me to discuss?

What makes Minus so bad, aside from the fact Gine (who was one of the biggest selling points for it) turned out to be generic housewife 101 and the chapter generally being a ungodly boring waste of time, it undermines the deep poetic meaning behind Goku defeating Freeza (a low-class reject avenging his fallen race) as we learn Goku wasn't really sent to Earth because he was weak and nobody wanted him but his parents wuved him. This makes Goku way too special as it establishes he was destined for greatness from birth which wasn't at all the case.

Even worse it's implied that Goku's gentle nature is inherented from his mother.

[FortuneSSJ]

Well according to some biological and maternal book about IRL kids and how to raise them, said that you are still a baby at 3 years old so no there no contradiction,

According to others, a baby and a 3 years old child is not the same thing.

as for Raditz narrative the last time he saw him was still in his tube pod at home naked, so it's still makes sens as for knowing his location well if the Galactique Patrol knew that a Saiyan baby was sent to earth I guess Raditz can know that too, and there was still one month left until the destruction of former planet plant.

Vegeta and Raditz were in the assumption that Goku was sent to eradicate Earth human but that wasn't the kind and they weren't aware of that, because they are not omniscient.

This is an assumption and goes against the facts told in the original manga.

I don't see any contradiction with your pictures as exemple for Minus it fits with the Saiyan saga.

I see two of them.

As for the similarities with Superman I really don't care because in the end Goku is not a superman at all whether in terms of power or mentality. So who the hell cares !

Most likely, everyone that wants a bit of originality to Goku's backstory.
Also the fact that the baby who was ignored by his own father and was sent away as trash to conquer a planet with weakling beings, end up becoming stronger than the Saiyans Prince who mocked his status, proving that SSJ existed and defeat Freeza, is much more enjoyable storytelling than the special kid that was sent away, because his parents loved him so much.

Good daddy/husband Bardock is also something I believe his fans weren't interested to see, after knowing his character for 20+ years and he was always popular.

[Master Xar]

You're right, it's not bad. It's HORRENDOUS!!!

Nice how you add nothing to the discussion did you come here to shout useless statements or did you come here to discuss?

Okay... *cracks knucles* you want me to discuss?

What makes Minus so bad, aside from the fact Gine (who was one of the biggest selling points for it) turned to be generic housewife 101 and the chapter generally being a ungodly boring waste of time, it undermines the deep poetic meaning behind Goku defeating Freeza (a low-class reject avenging his fallen race) as we learn Goku wasn't really sent to Earth because he was weak and nobody wanted him but his parents wuved him. This makes Goku way too special as it establishes he was destined for greatness from birth which wasn't at all the case.

Even worse it's implied that Goku's gentle nature is inherented from his mother.

*Breaks your lil’ baby knuckles*
And that comes with a simple or short story. Characters are more one dimensional than in a longer story. Is this bad for what it is? No.

And how does it “turn” Gine into a generic housewife? This is her FIRST on panel appearance. Gine’s personality I’m pretty sure was already spelled out with Akira Toriyama in an interview.

And how does that change anything from how The Bardock Special made him any more or less special? Bardock, power and role-wise was still just as much if not more so important to Goku escaping the planet as much as DB- did with Bardock and Gine sneaking him away. Bardock was already special in that he has special powers, an above Saiyan average power level, and multiple other conveniences.

If we’re going by how Bardock being “special” ruins the themes of the future story than BOTH are at fault of this by making Bardock even remotely special in any way as saying it “frames” Goku as being special too either power-wise or personality-wise

I’m looking at how they work as standalone stories. Not how they ruin future themes as they are both at fault for that. And as I’m saying how they both are at fault for this...

If you didn’t want Goku’s parents to be special in any way to make HIM seem special than you shouldn’t have wanted the backstory to focus on Bardock in the first place as he would have been special anyway...

Now are you going to actually discuss how they work as standalone stories or are you going to say they shouldn’t have been made or focused on Goku’s parents in the first place? Put your lil’ knuckles down son you aren’t intimidating anyone or soloing any threads.

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

According to others, a baby and a 3 years old child is not the same thing.

That's still a baby ! That's a biological facts !

This is an assumption and goes against the facts told in the original manga.

That's not an assumption at all lol it's more than likely, even if not told in the bonus Minus or the manga, for me it's plain logical at sight, just be a bit more like Spock.

I see two of them.

I guess you quoted the two above ?

Most likely, everyone that wants a bit of originality to Goku's backstory.
Also the fact that the baby who was ignored by his own father and was sent away as trash to conquer a planet with weakling beings, end up becoming stronger than the Saiyans Prince who mocked his status, proving that SSJ existed and defeat Freeza, is much more enjoyable storytelling than the special kid that was sent away, because his parents loved him so much.

Good daddy/husband Bardock is also something I believe his fans weren't interested to see, after knowing his character for 20+ years and he was always popular.

I'm Glad with how Toriyama handled it and I am a die hard Bardock fan! hehehe. I am also a Superman fan so for me it's nice from Toriyama to still doing his things by taking inspiration from others works of fiction, that's what I like with him and what I like in Dragon Ball, you can see how a big of nerds Toriyama is that's cute.

And I prefer this turn of event, because today everything must be Batman dark edgy ! We need more light hearted story and more positivism in this era where everything is moody and bitchy ! Lucky for me Toriyama is more about light hearted and fun story.

Someday with too much "edge" on story telling someone will cut himself

[Doctor.]

You weren’t involved in the argument to understand the context, he was using the faulty, double standard argument that Bardock being “special” had somehow ruined the story with Minus when The Bardock Special was ALREADY Special, but it is somehow held to it supporting The Saiyan Arcs theme of the “special” vs “non-special” theme... cuz he ain’t special... what kind of backwards ass logic is that?

Here is something better for thought. Do it yourself and quit asking me. Look at Minus without having the already “established” themes and narrative in your mind, and build your own opinion and interpretation of the themes from what DB- adds or changes to The Saiyan Saga or what have you and THEN say if you preferred the Original. Quit repeating the same arguments and form your own opinion without acknowledging what you already have built in your mind.

But the Bardock special doesn't matter. From what we're told in the Saiyan arc, isolated from any other material, Goku's family and Goku himself are not special. Whether you personally believe the Bardock TV special already makes Goku's family special or not is irrelevant to the fact that Minus also makes his family special, in stark contrast to what was said in the Saiyan arc.

Why do you keep saying this? Why do you keep insisting that everyone who thinks Minus ruins the themes of the Saiyan arc is just parroting someone else's opinion? No, they're not, the Saiyan arc is quite overt in the way it presents its themes, and it's there for anyone to pick up on. I've already told you that even if you look at Minus as "it's not bad, it's a different take," then the best you get is a Saiyan arc that is considerably less compelling as a result. That's not to say that the idea of a nice guy Bardock sending Goku to Earth to protect him CAN'T work, it can absolutely work depending on the execution, but Minus is completely devoid of any kind of substance to make that idea work within the confines of the original series' story.

My reason for creating this thread is to show that the same arguments I could use for saying DB- is trash is the exact same arguments I could use for the Special.

Now you're shifting goalposts. No, you can't really use the same arguments, because you seem to be ignoring the fact that it's largely execution that dictates how well a certain concept will land.

[Master Xar]

Well according to some biological and maternal book about IRL kids and how to raise them, said that you are still a baby at 3 years old so no there no contradiction,

According to others, a baby and a 3 years old child is not the same thing.

as for Raditz narrative the last time he saw him was still in his tube pod at home naked, so it's still makes sens as for knowing his location well if the Galactique Patrol knew that a Saiyan baby was sent to earth I guess Raditz can know that too, and there was still one month left until the destruction of former planet plant.

Vegeta and Raditz were in the assumption that Goku was sent to eradicate Earth human but that wasn't the kind and they weren't aware of that, because they are not omniscient.

This is an assumption and goes against the facts told in the original manga.

I don't see any contradiction with your pictures as exemple for Minus it fits with the Saiyan saga.

I see two of them.

As for the similarities with Superman I really don't care because in the end Goku is not a superman at all whether in terms of power or mentality. So who the hell cares !

Most likely, everyone that wants a bit of originality to Goku's backstory.
Also the fact that the baby who was ignored by his own father and was sent away as trash to conquer a planet with weakling beings, end up becoming stronger than the Saiyans Prince who mocked his status, proving that SSJ existed and defeat Freeza, is much more enjoyable storytelling than the special kid that was sent away, because his parents loved him so much.

Good daddy/husband Bardock is also something I believe his fans weren't interested to see, after knowing his character for 20+ years and he was always popular.

1.) So? How is that a contradiction if the interpretation of what qualifies for a baby or toddler (especially since this is a fictional alien race, that stay in their prime until they are fucking 80 years old...)

2.) So? Interpretation of events and explanations is the basis of what you judge “show, don’t tell” on if you can’t come up with an explanation as to how Raditz found out where Goku is without the story giving you a direct explanation that is a fault of you and your imagination, not of the writers.

3.) And? The Bardock Special does this too by making Bardock a fucking juggernaut among saiyans (10,000 power level) with psychic powers. And that itself is unoriginal with the Heroes’ parent being just as much of a badass as far as power goes anyway. I’m not going to fault Minus for this as it is just a retelling and it’s more of a flaw of the original special. But if we’re going by this DB- makes him way less special or “unoriginal”... outside of his personality along with Gine, he isn’t the focus of some big story.

Now let’s look at them as standalone stories outside of your preference and the 2 first points which were fallacies. What does the story do that’s any better or worse than the Original Bardock Special?

[Master Xar]

You weren’t involved in the argument to understand the context, he was using the faulty, double standard argument that Bardock being “special” had somehow ruined the story with Minus when The Bardock Special was ALREADY Special, but it is somehow held to it supporting The Saiyan Arcs theme of the “special” vs “non-special” theme... cuz he ain’t special... what kind of backwards ass logic is that?

Here is something better for thought. Do it yourself and quit asking me. Look at Minus without having the already “established” themes and narrative in your mind, and build your own opinion and interpretation of the themes from what DB- adds or changes to The Saiyan Saga or what have you and THEN say if you preferred the Original. Quit repeating the same arguments and form your own opinion without acknowledging what you already have built in your mind.

But the Bardock special doesn't matter. From what we're told in the Saiyan arc, isolated from any other material, Goku's family and Goku himself are not special. Whether you personally believe the Bardock TV special already makes Goku's family special or not is irrelevant to the fact that Minus also makes his family special, in stark contrast to what was said in the Saiyan arc.

Why do you keep saying this? Why do you keep insisting that everyone who thinks Minus ruins the themes of the Saiyan arc is just parroting someone else's opinion? No, they're not, the Saiyan arc is quite overt in the way it presents its themes, and it's there for anyone to pick up on. I've already told you that even if you look at Minus as "it's not bad, it's a different take," then the best you get is a Saiyan arc that is considerably less compelling as a result. That's not to say that the idea of a nice guy Bardock sending Goku to Earth to protect him CAN'T work, it can absolutely work depending on the execution, but Minus is completely devoid of any kind of substance to make that idea work within the confines of the original series' story.

My reason for creating this thread is to show that the same arguments I could use for saying DB- is trash is the exact same arguments I could use for the Special.

Now you're shifting goalposts. No, you can't really use the same arguments, because you seem to be ignoring the fact that it's largely execution that dictates how well a certain concept will land.

Then why does it very clearly have more hate than the Bardock Special? That is the point here. My point was originally judging how Minus doesn’t do anything wrong as a STANDALONE story. And people kept bringing up the fault of it making Bardock “Special” when it was already a retelling of the original Bardock Special in the first place I’m judging it as “Toriyama’s take on the original events on The Bardock Special” which ALREADY had flaws so I’m not going to judge it on that. That’s The Bardock Special’s own innate flaw. It already comes with naturally messing up the theme of the original saiyan arc if we were viewing the Saiyans as these always evil bastards that Goku due to growing up on Earth.

“The Bardock Special” could’ve replaced Bardock with anyone else that is a saiyan and it’d still “ruin” the theme of the original story because it would frame any saiyan as a stand-out or just as special as Goku if they were the protagonist.

This is what I meant that “backstory” is innately flawed and that it should best be left unexplained or as vague as possible and that’s why DB- works better as a backstory... to serve the main plot. It still shouldn’t have been made along with The Bardock Special. But still.

And that is why I’m judging the stories for what they are as stories and not backstories and it was already an innate flaw with telling the past to begin with.

I wasn’t moving the goalpost I was trying my best to avoid the “special” argument and wanted people to look at both stories to come to the conclusion themselves... but no. I had to basically be obvious with what I’m trying to say here, I was playing as a neutral party to encourage people to look and think and compare both stories on their own.

Now do you see what I mean?

Execution is more served to help make what the themes or nuances of a story easier to convey, but I don’t see how DB- makes that better or worse than what The Bardock Special did, I can understand the themes and nuances very clearly (at least as far as judging them as stories themselves, and not backstories) but then again this is more subjective and what you or I think works to convey the story better.

[DBZAOTA482]

*Breaks your lil’ baby knuckles*
And that comes with a simple or short story. Characters are more one dimensional than in a longer story. Is this bad for what it is? No.

And how does it “turn” Gine into a generic housewife? This is her FIRST on panel appearance. Gine’s personality I’m pretty sure was already spelled out with Akira Toriyama in an interview.

And how does that change anything from how The Bardock Special made him any more or less special? Bardock, power and role-wise was still just as much if not more so important to Goku escaping the planet as much as DB- did with Bardock and Gine sneaking him away. Bardock was already special in that he has special powers, an above Saiyan average power level, and multiple other conveniences.

If we’re going by how Bardock being “special” ruins the themes of the future story than BOTH are at fault of this by making Bardock even remotely special in any way as saying it “frames” Goku as being special too either power-wise or personality-wise

I’m looking at how they work as standalone stories. Not how they ruin future themes as they are both at fault for that. And as I’m saying how they both are at fault for this...

If you didn’t want Goku’s parents to be special in any way to make HIM seem special than you shouldn’t have wanted the backstory to focus on Bardock in the first place as he would have been special anyway...

Now are you going to actually discuss how they work as standalone stories or are you going to say they shouldn’t have been made or focused on Goku’s parents in the first place? Put your lil’ knuckles down son you aren’t intimidating anyone or soloing any threads.

First off, there was nothing special about Bardock in the TV special from an in-universe perspective. He was essentially just another soldier who was able to see the harsh truth because of a strange alien. All that's really known about him is that he's Goku father and that's all we need to know. In Minus, he is not only shown as a loving husband and father (which we know is very un-Saiyan like) but somehow instinctively knew Freeza was going to betray the Saiyans.

The original Bardock stood out mainly because he was a soldier who fearlessly fought against fate simply because he stood for what he believed in which is like the definition of badass. Something that is missing from Minus.

Even as it's own story, Minus fails because it's boring and derivative of Superman's backstory but as an expansion to Dragon Ball lore, it fails even harder for the reasons given.

Lastly, a character's first appearance is supposed to catch the audiences' interest because it's what sets the tone and gives them an idea of what they're about. If a story fails at making a character interesting off-top (especially when a story makes them out to be a big deal) then that's just bad storytelling.

That's why we almost never see Gine outside Minus.

[Doctor.]

Then why does it very clearly have more hate than the Bardock Special? That is the point here.

Simple. Because although you could argue it makes Bardock special like Minus does, what matters is not that both prequels share the same idea, but the way they're executed. Not to mention there are a plethora of other factors that contribute to the way the Bardock special better integrates itself into the original story's themes than Minus does.

You're isolating one aspect of both stories, ignoring execution, and claiming there's a double standard.

And that is why I’m judging the stories for what they are as stories and not backstories and it was already an innate flaw with telling the past to begin with.

You can do your best to detach Minus from Dragon Ball as a whole and try to judge it as its own standalone story, but you'd just be ignoring reality. Minus is a prequel, it's meant to expand on the universe of the original series, namely by showing Goku's backstory in this case. And even if you judge it as its own standalone story, there's still plenty to pick apart.

[Master Xar]

*Breaks your lil’ baby knuckles*
And that comes with a simple or short story. Characters are more one dimensional than in a longer story. Is this bad for what it is? No.

And how does it “turn” Gine into a generic housewife? This is her FIRST on panel appearance. Gine’s personality I’m pretty sure was already spelled out with Akira Toriyama in an interview.

And how does that change anything from how The Bardock Special made him any more or less special? Bardock, power and role-wise was still just as much if not more so important to Goku escaping the planet as much as DB- did with Bardock and Gine sneaking him away. Bardock was already special in that he has special powers, an above Saiyan average power level, and multiple other conveniences.

If we’re going by how Bardock being “special” ruins the themes of the future story than BOTH are at fault of this by making Bardock even remotely special in any way as saying it “frames” Goku as being special too either power-wise or personality-wise

I’m looking at how they work as standalone stories. Not how they ruin future themes as they are both at fault for that. And as I’m saying how they both are at fault for this...

If you didn’t want Goku’s parents to be special in any way to make HIM seem special than you shouldn’t have wanted the backstory to focus on Bardock in the first place as he would have been special anyway...

Now are you going to actually discuss how they work as standalone stories or are you going to say they shouldn’t have been made or focused on Goku’s parents in the first place? Put your lil’ knuckles down son you aren’t intimidating anyone or soloing any threads.

First off, there was nothing special about Bardock in the TV special from an in-universe perspective. He was essentially just another soldier who was able to see the harsh truth because of a strange alien. All that's really known about him is that he's Goku father and that's all we need to know. In Minus, he is not only shown as a loving husband and father (which we know is very un-Saiyan like) but somehow instinctively knew Freeza was going to betray the Saiyans.

The original Bardock stood out mainly because he was a soldier who fearlessly fought against fate simply because he stood for what he believed in which is like the definition of badass. Something that is missing from Minus.

Even as it's own story, Minus fails because it's boring and derivative of Superman's backstory.

Also, a character's first appearance is supposed to catch the audiences' interest because it's what sets the tone and gives them an idea of what they're about. If a story fails at making a character interesting off-top (especially when a story makes them out to be a big deal) then that's just bad storytelling.

That's why we almost never see Gine outside Minus.

BZZZTTTT. Wrong.

I’m not saying that either. I’m saying that if we’re judging both under the rule that “neither can or cannot support/ruin the theme of The Saiyan Arc” then they BOTH ruin it with Bardock being “special” in ANY way. I could say what is worse for one than the other.

Now you ask me. “If Bardock isn’t special or different in any way, why is he the focus of the backstory.”

And that’s the point. He shouldn’t have been the main character as this special shouldn’t have been made at all and that’s why I say “Show, Don’t Tell (in this case being the destruction of Planet Vegeta) was not needed, it supplements at takes away from the theme in their own ways, as it only served to ruin The Saiyan Arc’s theme and enhance it in their own ways, ultimately still take it away and would be better if neither was made in the first place from a storytelling perspective.

Minus enhances the theme more because the story is short, Bardock is FAR less special, the only thing special about him is that he is Goku’s Father, slightly more human than the rest, and has a pure-hearted wife. He isn’t stronger than an elite as far as we know, he has no special powers, he isn’t the only one to rebel, and isn’t the focus of some fleshed out story. It works it’s them far better than The Original Bardock Special where he is even MORE special than DB- Bardock.

Again this is going on the theme and narrative, that Goku is some form of non-special trash with zero potential with no bloodline tied to his power or who he is as a person outside of being a Saiyan, going against an elite warrior that is his opposite.

BOTH should not have been made as they are a “tell” of what Goku’s father is and ruins the themed The Saiyan Saga from that light. Backstory works absolutely best when it is short and sweet, and that’s why DB- works as better backstory for the main plot. It doesn’t ruin the narrative of Goku being special as much as The Bardock Special did.

Now from a story perspective is DB- worse than The Bardock Special? Objectively no. It’s all in what you prefer. But if we’re going by this idea that they “enhance” the themes of the Saiyan Saga DB- works far better BECAUSE it is short and not a story, if neither was made at all The Theme would be completely intact as far as The Saiyan Saga goes.

Try again.