Did Goku Mature While Training w/ Mr. Popo

[ABED]

I've decided to make this its own thread, but I've seen this claim for years now - Goku matured and started showing mercy after his training with Mr. Popo. I disagree for several reasons. First, he's shown granting enemies mercy before the 23rd TB and he's shown killing enemies without mercy afterwards. It's tempting to claim he has changed because there are many examples of him killing lackies in DB, but my retort is he doesn't fight an army in those numbers after the fall of the RRA. He usually fights one on one battles against fewer numbers of enemies and they are all given names and distinct personalities.

Lastly, if he changed, Toriyama would make a point of focusing on it. Sure he would show it, but he would also have characters comment on it and focus on the development, like he did with characters like Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Vegeta.

All this is why when fans claim his training with Kami/Popo made him more merciful, I think they are reaching an erroneous conclusion.

[sintzu]

I think he was maturing and changing ever since he ran into Bulma so whatever changes he went through while training with Popo was simply the next stage in a development process that started long ago.

[Kokonoe]

I was under the impression he just got more mature with age which is normal.

[KBABZ]

I think the big mistake a lot of fans make is assuming that Goku had changed significantly; particularly with the flanderization in Super, the emphasis tends to be that he's still a kid on the inside. My favourite example of that is him not noticing that he never needed a haircut in the Cell arc. I would argue that he matured more as a martial artist before that: in the 22nd TB he is very mature and prescient in the way he analyzes battles, especially when you compare him to Krillin. Prime example being in the Jackie/Tien fight where Krillin is arrogant and says Jackie will wipe the floor with Tien, but Goku has a much more realistic assessment of their capabilities and says it's 50/50. He's way ahead of where Krillin is as a martial artist.

You mentioned that if Toriyama would have made a point over if Goku had changed. Funnily enough, the only way he does is over how Goku hadn't changed; the way Bulma identifies him as Goku in the anime when meeting at the 23rd TB is he thinks she has a fever because of her lipstick. Time and again we get nods and references to "same old Goku" after he grows up, after all. The main way Goku had changed at that point is his height!

On being more merciful than before, that's BS. One of his lines in the first episode (in the dub at least, please spare me) was "I really don't like to hurt anybody, but he left me no choice!". More than that, he specifically spares Tao Pai-Pai when he feigns an honorable defeat, and he spares Piccolo Jr. when everyone else tells him not to (including Kami and Mr. Popo, the very pair at the crux of this argument and who wanted to have Piccolo killed), something that happens again with Vegeta and Frieza. Anyone who knows Goku's character at that time knows that Goku is a pretty big pacifist, and that extends to the Z era stuff where he starts sparing opponents because they provide a good fight (and to anyone who says the RRA raid was bloodthirsty, then I point to him getting Raditz, his own brother, killed as an example of that in Z). It ties in very well with his Tournament-bred methodology of fighting where it's about beating your opponent, not killing them, and he gets very upset when people take things too far, such as Tien on Yamcha.

[Kokonoe]

I think the big mistake a lot of fans make is assuming that Goku had changed significantly; particularly with the flanderization in Super, the emphasis tends to be that he's still a kid on the inside. My favourite example of that is him not noticing that he never needed a haircut in the Cell arc. I would argue that he matured more as a martial artist before that: in the 22nd TB he is very mature and prescient in the way he analyzes battles, especially when you compare him to Krillin. Prime example being in the Jackie/Tien fight where Krillin is arrogant and says Jackie will wipe the floor with Tien, but Goku has a much more realistic assessment of their capabilities and says it's 50/50. He's way ahead of where Krillin is as a martial artist.

You mentioned that if Toriyama would have made a point over if Goku had changed. Funnily enough, the only way he does is over how Goku hadn't changed; the way Bulma identifies him as Goku in the anime when meeting at the 23rd TB is he thinks she has a fever because of her lipstick. Time and again we get nods and references to "same old Goku" after he grows up, after all. The main way Goku had changed at that point is his height!

On being more merciful than before, that's BS. One of his lines in the first episode (in the dub at least, please spare me) was "I really don't like to hurt anybody, but he left me no choice!". More than that, he specifically spares Tao Pai-Pai when he feigns an honorable defeat, and he spares Piccolo Jr. when everyone else tells him not to (including Kami and Mr. Popo, the very pair at the crux of this argument and who wanted to have Piccolo killed), something that happens again with Vegeta and Frieza. Anyone who knows Goku's character at that time knows that Goku is a pretty big pacifist, and that extends to the Z era stuff where he starts sparing opponents because they provide a good fight (and to anyone who says the RRA raid was bloodthirsty, then I point to him getting Raditz, his own brother, killed as an example of that in Z). It ties in very well with his Tournament-bred methodology of fighting where it's about beating your opponent, not killing them, and he gets very upset when people take things too far, such as Tien on Yamcha.

Goku is always Goku that is true, but I mean you are still the same person as you get older, there are just certain things you mature in over time. Goku is still naive as a personality trait, but the way he conveys himself later on is one of more experience and wisdom.

You can tell by his actions in the Cell and Buu saga with him wanting to pass the torch over as one example of his maturity that rose overtime.

[KBABZ]

Goku is always Goku that is true, but I mean you are still the same person as you get older, there are just certain things you mature in over time. Goku is still naive as a personality trait, but the way he conveys himself later on is one of more experience and wisdom.

You can tell by his actions in the Cell and Buu saga with him wanting to pass the torch over as one example of his maturity that rose overtime.

True, and by the 22nd he's definitely figured out men from women without physical contact. But I don't think his approach towards his intended outcome of a battle has ever changed: if they're suitably bad, he'll fight, and to the death if he feels they are utterly irredeemable (like with Buu, or Frieza post-Namek). And if they offer a chance at redemption, he'll let them take it (no matter how faked it might be, which can make him rather reluctant). If they're a good sport he'll want them as a training partner. That to me permeates through all of the series, not just in the Z stuff.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yeah almost certainly... Mr. Popo specifically taught Goku not to be so reckless while fighting.

Also in Z he's shown to know the birds and bees.

[ABED]

And if Toriyama really meant to say that Goku had become more merciful after training with Kami and Popo, it would seem at odds with his views on his character. It's also at odds with most of Goku's actions such as letting Vegeta live so he can fight him and letting Dr. Gero finish the cyborgs even though he has advanced warning.

[OhHiRenan]

I don’t think training with Popo and Kami made Goku more merciful, but there’s definitely a subtle shift in his character going into the 23rd Budokai. He’s still the same old Goku as other have mentioned, but Toriyama definitely presents him as a bit more collected and aware. It’s also less a result of training with God as it is a natural progression of his growth we’ve seen prior.

[Ssjcell]

Well it's complicated on one hand after his training with popo he did spare a lot of opponents Vegeta piccolo frieza . On the other hand I don't see a huge change after his training remember he was solely focused on stopping piccolo throughout his training. One way or the other this guy needed to be stopped he was piccolo a guy who went from destroying cities to setting prisoners free. I think on one school of thought Goku was probably torn as to if this piccolo was truely king piccolo or someone else entirely. This may have been a catalyst for Goku sparring piccolo at least and sense Vegeta didn't kill anyone on earth that could have caused Goku to spare him.

[kemuri07]

The problem with basing Goku's maturity on his willingness to spare his enemies ignores the tonal shifts of early DB to the King Piccolo arc. Dragonball during the RxR was still very much a comedy anime. So yeah, Goku technically did murder literally an entire army--we're also not supposed to take it that seriously.

[Desassina]

Mr. Popo made a man out of Goku while Kami nailed him by the tail. It's no wonder that he spared his opponents to get a partner in life.

[Cure Dragon 255]

OMG Did you just say Kami and Mr POPO RAPED GOKU!? WHAT!?

[The Patrolman]

Mr. Popo made a man out of Goku while Kami nailed him by the tail. It's no wonder that he spared his opponents to get a partner in life.

Had to take a minute to stop laughing at that comment

[Tian]

Mr. Popo made a man out of Goku while Kami nailed him by the tail. It's no wonder that he spared his opponents to get a partner in life.

This contest is over. Give this man the $10000

[Doctor.]

I don't think it's intentional writing on Toriyama's part but I do think he changed. He had no problem killing Tao, Drum, Tambourine and Piccolo Daimao, whereas he offered chances to Raditz, Vegeta, Nappa, the Ginyus and Freeza. Goku outright refusing to kill the Ginyus and Freeza when he had the chance was put on the spotlight in the Namek arc so at least that part was intentional. Freeza pushes him over the edge and finally forces him to 'kill' and from there on he has no problem killing (or suggesting they should kill) future enemies.

Toriyama likely thought Goku sparing his enemies in the Saiyan and Namek arc would make him more sympathetic and Freeza finally pushing him over the edge after squandering two chances would be a neat bit of character writing, but everything surrounding it is inconsistent as all hell and I can only justify it through headcanon.

[ABED]

Mr. Popo made a man out of Goku while Kami nailed him by the tail. It's no wonder that he spared his opponents to get a partner in life.

This contest is over. Give this man the $10000

What am I missing? What's funny? Why is this clever?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Because they raped a child! And that's just totes hilarious.


UGH.


That was a Nex Carnifex tier post which means its REALLY FUCKING AWFUL!