Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

[ABED]

Kunzait wrote a post a few months ago about the change between Piccolo Daimao and his offspring/reincarnated self, and how when he was reborn, it came with a soul. The reason it wasn't explicitly said so is because it's basically implicitly understood in Japan. If I recall it has to do with whatever religion(s) is prevalent in Japan. Perhaps I'm remembering the post wrong, but that's the crux of this thread. I'm ignorant about Japanese culture and want a better understanding of this aspect and how it affects Piccolo's character. If I'm correct, why am I only hearing about this 20 years later?

[KBABZ]

Is the implication also that Daimao had no soul?

[ABED]

Is the implication also that Daimao had no soul?

I imagine that would be the case seeing as how he's a literal embodiment of evil.

[Robo4900]

I never even vaguely got this vibe, and it seems like a really odd inference to get and spread around tbh...

Wasn't the whole point about Piccolo Junior that Daimao transferred his spirit to the egg, and thus Junior is just Daimao, but basically just reborn. Naturally, having to go through childhood again, and the years following his defeat at the 23rd Tenkaichi changed him, but I don't think involving any mystical "he gained a soul when he was reborn" shenanigans enter into this. If anything, I think that would kind of cheapen the true character depth of Piccolo's character arc.

[ABED]

I never even vaguely got this vibe, and it seems like a really odd inference to get and spread around tbh...

Wasn't the whole point about Piccolo Junior that Daimao transferred his spirit to the egg, and thus Junior is just Daimao, but basically just reborn. Naturally, having to go through childhood again, and the years following his defeat at the 23rd Tenkaichi changed him, but I don't think involving any mystical "he gained a soul when he was reborn" shenanigans enter into this. If anything, I think that would kind of cheapen the true character depth of Piccolo's character arc.

That's arguable, but it makes more sense to me that there's something fundamentally different about the son because I can't buy Gohan's kindness changing Piccolo Daimao.

[Desassina]

Piccolo Daimao's soul on Piccolo Jr. is more like a bad father's influence on his son, who is another person made equal to him until he's strong enough to depart, and change his own way to become different according to his right to do so. More so than that, the series hinted at Kami being a Dragon Clan Namekian, with Piccolo Daimao deviating towards the Demon Clan, but expelling a Warrior type Namekian nonetheless, who went on to assimilate the former.

[Robo4900]

I never even vaguely got this vibe, and it seems like a really odd inference to get and spread around tbh...

Wasn't the whole point about Piccolo Junior that Daimao transferred his spirit to the egg, and thus Junior is just Daimao, but basically just reborn. Naturally, having to go through childhood again, and the years following his defeat at the 23rd Tenkaichi changed him, but I don't think involving any mystical "he gained a soul when he was reborn" shenanigans enter into this. If anything, I think that would kind of cheapen the true character depth of Piccolo's character arc.

That's arguable, but it makes more sense to me that there's something fundamentally different about the son because I can't buy Gohan's kindness changing Piccolo Daimao.

Not Piccolo Daimao as-is, but Piccolo Daimao after he spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got his as whooped, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

Piccolo Daimao's soul on Piccolo Jr. is more like a bad father's influence on his son, who is another person made equal to him until he's strong enough to depart, and change his own way to become different according to his right to do so. More so than that, the series hinted at Kami being a Dragon Clan Namekian, with Piccolo Daimao deviating towards the Demon Clan, but expelling a Warrior type Namekian nonetheless, who went on to assimilate the former.

That's your interpretation, and you're entitled to it, but I don't think they're just separate people who happen to be related, I think it's much deeper than that. The way Piccolo Junior's first 15 years of life went changed him quite a lot, and resulted in a very different individual out the other end. At the moment of his birth, I dont' think he was really any different from who Piccolo Daimao was, just in a child's body. But as he gained his own experiences, and became his own man, things changed.

I don't think Piccolo Junior's turn being down to him being a pure being escaping the corruption of his father is what this is. It's one way of reading it, but I personally have a massive distaste for this reading, I much prefer looking at it from the perspective of how he as a person evolved and changed, rather than any kind of metaphysical stuff being the sole factor behind his turn. It would be like saying "When Vegeta was revived on Namek, he was granted a clean slate of a soul, and from then on, he was able to redeem himself, and gain a conscience.", or something equally silly.

[ABED]

I never even vaguely got this vibe, and it seems like a really odd inference to get and spread around tbh...

Wasn't the whole point about Piccolo Junior that Daimao transferred his spirit to the egg, and thus Junior is just Daimao, but basically just reborn. Naturally, having to go through childhood again, and the years following his defeat at the 23rd Tenkaichi changed him, but I don't think involving any mystical "he gained a soul when he was reborn" shenanigans enter into this. If anything, I think that would kind of cheapen the true character depth of Piccolo's character arc.

That's arguable, but it makes more sense to me that there's something fundamentally different about the son because I can't buy Gohan's kindness changing Piccolo Daimao.

Not Piccolo Daimao as-is, but Piccolo Daimao after he spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got his as whooped, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

Even after being spared and 5 years spent preparing, Daimao is literally evil incarnate. There has to be something mystical going on. Daimao isn't a person in the way a character like Vegeta was. Vegeta is a person who lusts for power and does horrible things. He chose his actions. Daimao was the evil cast off from the child of Katatsu given physical form.

Obviously something is different in him and it's not just a change in attitude. Kami states that Raditz didn't wind up in limbo after Piccolo killed him. He's no longer a demon.

And I'm not saying a mystical reason is the SOLE reason for his change, just that it's the thing that allows for the change to occur.

[Robo4900]

That's arguable, but it makes more sense to me that there's something fundamentally different about the son because I can't buy Gohan's kindness changing Piccolo Daimao.

Not Piccolo Daimao as-is, but Piccolo Daimao after he spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got his as whooped, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

Even after being spared and 5 years spent preparing, Daimao is literally evil incarnate. There has to be something mystical going on. Daimao isn't a person in the way a character like Vegeta was.

It's deeper than that. He's not just evil incarnate, he's the selfish and destructive desires of God, everything he had to cast aside to become the all-good guardian of earth. Does that make him literal evil incarnate? Perhaps, but remember that he is still ultimately a person first and foremost. The whole point is that he is the Namekian you get by splitting that original Namekian into two halves, one of which went on to be God. But they are two people. Piccolo Daimao was first cast out from God as a fully-formed adult with the singular goal of doing all the things he was never able to achieve when he was simply a part of the being's psyche. Then he was defeated by Mutaito, then he escaped and wasted no time in trying to get his stranglehold on the world back, and then was reborn, and for the first time in his existence, had to wait around for a while, and also for the first time, actually had to grow and develop himself into the person he wants to be.

For the first time, when he became Junior, he wasn't immediately a fully-formed entity ready to take the world, he was a child who had to get a grasp of his powers again, re-train his body, and of course, prepare himself for his ultimate goal which, instead of being immediate conquest and torment of all life on earth, was his encounter with Goku 5 years from his birth. So, for the first time, Piccolo had to actually be a person idly just existing...

I don't see how any metaphysical "Gaining a soul" idiocy has to be involved in this character evolution. As I say, I think that would vastly cheapen the whole affair.

Obviously something is different in him and it's not just a change in attitude. Kami states that Raditz didn't wind up in limbo after Piccolo killed him. He's no longer a demon.

I mean, that's pretty easily handwaved; when his original body died, so did his connection to the demon clan. The fact he's no longer really huge and can't spit demon eggs out anymore kind of speaks to that.

And I'm not saying a mystical reason is the SOLE reason for his change, just that it's the thing that allows for the change to occur.

If it's the thing that allows the change to occur, then it is the sole reason for this change. You are saying that this is what allowed the change to take place, therefore surely without this, the change could never have taken place, therefore all other events being the same, this would remain the sole factor that decides this. And I utterly hate this implication of this theory.
Go ahead and say I'm wrong if you like, but that is what you and apparently Kunzait were saying -- the "Gaining of a soul" you seem so attached to apparently is why he was able to "Stop being evil", whatever that means... So, if that's the case, and if he wouldn't have been able to "Stop being evil" or whatever, then surely this is the sole deciding factor; regardless of which way this factor went, everything would have been the same aside from the outcome of whether or not Piccolo remained his old, "Evil" self, so it is the deciding factor here, in this theory.

[ABED]

I dont' think he is a person first and foremost. His creation was inherently mystical. There's nothing biological about it. He just wants destruction and death for its own sake. Given his arc of going from pure evil to hero requires more than just time. How is time any smarter than getting a soul? His origins are inherently mystical, but you balk at the idea of the beginning of his growth being neccessitated by something mystical as well. That is an awfully arbitrary line. I don't buy that if Daimao hadn't been reborn but had still been defeated, he would've made the same choices as his son.

I think Piccolo had to be reborn as something else (not a demon) for him to be open to change.

then it is the sole reason for this change.

No it's not. You still need Gohan's kindness for him to make that change. You need both.

I mean, that's pretty easily handwaved; when his original body died, so did his connection to the demon clan. The fact he's no longer really huge and can't spit demon eggs out anymore kind of speaks to that.

AH, so he is metaphysically different! Otherwise do you think his change of heart has that effect on him?

This thread isn't even really about what my preference or view is, it's to gain a better understanding. Am I right or am I wrong? It's true or false question.

[Desassina]

That's your interpretation, and you're entitled to it, but I don't think they're just separate people who happen to be related, I think it's much deeper than that. The way Piccolo Junior's first 15 years of life went changed him quite a lot, and resulted in a very different individual out the other end. At the moment of his birth, I dont' think he was really any different from who Piccolo Daimao was, just in a child's body. But as he gained his own experiences, and became his own man, things changed.

I don't think Piccolo Junior's turn being down to him being a pure being escaping the corruption of his father is what this is. It's one way of reading it, but I personally have a massive distaste for this reading, I much prefer looking at it from the perspective of how he as a person evolved and changed, rather than any kind of metaphysical stuff being the sole factor behind his turn. It would be like saying "When Vegeta was revived on Namek, he was granted a clean slate of a soul, and from then on, he was able to redeem himself, and gain a conscience.", or something equally silly.

You did two things wrong here:
1. You called it my own interpretation and said that I was entitled to it, which reads as "it's fine, mate, but that's like... your opinion", like a disparaging take on someone else's view on the subject, and I'll be damned if these discussions aren't always our opinion, without a de facto standard. Hating it was the clue, respecting it was not required, but let's not try to pass it off as baseless, because it's not, even when backing it up with an interpretation of events that took place.
2. You misinterpreted it. It's obvious that Piccolo's experiences will be different than Daimao's, because he will have lived another time and another place, faced different foes and grown to live alongside them, but the inner voice that shaped him to hate Goku first and foremost existed as an influence. Otherwise, why would Piccolo Jr, who never saw the face of Goku before, want to face him and continue with world conquest, without us knowing whether people made him an outcast or not?

Plus, the Vegeta comparison is ridiculous, because he is the same person, granted with the same soul upon revival. Every change that he went through was on his own.

[ABED]

Piccolo Jr. is also mystical in nature. While he's not evil incarnate, he's not simply an offspring who wants revenge for the death of his father. He is both father/son, hence his connection to Kami.

Vegeta isn't a good comparison because like every person, he was born tabula rasa and with free will.

[Desassina]

One thing that is still confusing to me: are Namekians born to be dragon ball makers and fighters, or can they devote themselves to that role, like Kami became a deity on Earth, by expelling one half whose devotion was the demon clan? I'm asking, because if the dragon balls were not theirs from the beginning, according to Dragon Ball Super legends of the super dragon balls, then it's not in their DNA to produce them, but their knowledge. Since Piccolo owns a few of Daimao's magic, he who is half of the original nameless Namekian, it was by a passing ritual that this fighter grew to know it, but without the knowledge of the dragon balls, which could have been secluded upon splitting.

[ABED]

One thing that is still confusing to me: are Namekians born to be dragon ball makers and fighters, or can they devote themselves to that role, like Kami became a deity on Earth, by expelling one half whose devotion was the demon clan? I'm asking, because if the dragon balls were not theirs from the beginning, according to Dragon Ball Super legends of the super dragon balls, then it's not in their DNA to produce them, but their knowledge. Since Piccolo owns a few of Daimao's magic, he who is half of the original nameless Namekian, it was by a passing ritual that this fighter grew to know it, but without the knowledge of the dragon balls, which could have been secluded upon splitting.

If I recall Namekians are either healers or warriors. There are a small number of Namekians who are capable of creating Dragon Balls and they can be either a healer like Dende and the Grand Elder, or they can be warriors like the Child of Katatsu. Kami isn't his name. It is his title. Kami means "god".

[Robo4900]

1. You called it my own interpretation and said that I was entitled to it, which reads as "it's fine, mate, but that's like... your opinion", like a disparaging take on someone else's view on the subject, and I'll be damned if these discussions aren't always our opinion, without a de facto standard. Hating it was the clue, respecting it was not required, but let's not try to pass it off as baseless, because it's not, even when backing it up with an interpretation of events that took place.

I mean, I was just intending to use it as an opening like "I acknowledge that this is a valid interpretation", to hopefully soften the blow of me totally tearing the interpretation apart. Apologies for sounding like a dick there, I was going for the opposite effect, but it looks like it backfired...

2. You misinterpreted it. It's obvious that Piccolo's experiences will be different than Daimao's, because he will have lived another time and another place, faced different foes and grown to live alongside them, but the inner voice that shaped him to hate Goku first and foremost existed as an influence. Otherwise, why would Piccolo Jr, who never saw the face of Goku before, want to face him and continue with world conquest, without us knowing whether people made him an outcast or not?

Plus, the Vegeta comparison is ridiculous, because he is the same person, granted with the same soul upon revival. Every change that he went through was on his own.

There's a fundamental difference in our interpretations here; I'm not misinterpreting anything, we're just talking about two vastly different takes on how this went down: I see Daimao and Junior as one person, you see them as entirely separate. Because of the way Junior generally holds himself, speaks, and reacts to things, I think it's pretty clear everything Piccolo Daimao was still exists within Junior's mind, and naturally when he was first born, that's all he had in his head, so that's all he was. So, given that and the fact Piccolo transferred his spirit to the egg to create Junior, it seems pretty clear to me that they are the same person, just in two different stages of their lives by a rather odd mechanic of Namekian physiology.

But, you seem to see Junior as his own entirely separate individual who just happens to have Daimao essentially whispering in his ear as a voice in his head, and I've never really given any credence to this somewhat commonly-held view of the Daimao-Junior relationship.

The reason I bring up the Vegeta comparison ties into this. Junior was born with everything Daimao was and is in his head, making him Daimao just in a child's body. The only difference here is that Vegeta was revived as an adult, and presuambly spent a brief time in the afterlife.

Piccolo Jr. is also mystical in nature. While he's not evil incarnate, he's not simply an offspring who wants revenge for the death of his father. He is both father/son, hence his connection to Kami.

Vegeta isn't a good comparison because like every person, he was born tabula rasa and with free will.

See above, re: Piccolo Daimao being nothing more than evil incarnate and that being the difference between Daimao and Junior being utterly silly to me, and re: Junior and Daimao really being the same person at the moment of Junior's birth.
Though I will note, mentioning free will does tie into my objections with the "junior gained a soul allowing him to be good" theory; saying that his metaphysical "Gaining of a soul" that was never even vaguely hinted at in the story to my recollections is the reason why he was able to become the man he became as Junior entirely goes against this; it's deciding that a metaphysical thing takes precedent over the characters themselves, and dictates how they behave, and that just seems clunky, lazy, and highly counterintuitive in a world that supposedly has free will.

One thing that is still confusing to me: are Namekians born to be dragon ball makers and fighters, or can they devote themselves to that role

I don't think this is ever clarified in the story, but I believe external materials like the Daizenshuus say that they are born to either be Dragon Ball-makers, or fighters.

Kami became a deity on Earth, by expelling one half whose devotion was the demon clan?

I don't think Piccolo was of the demon clan when he initially formed. He was initially just a part of the son of Katatsu's being. When the son of Katatsu split into God and Piccolo, while I don't think it was outright stated, I think Piccolo had to specifically choose to align himself with the demon clan, judging from various factors in the series.

if the dragon balls were not theirs from the beginning, according to Dragon Ball Super legends of the super dragon balls

Super does a lot of things that totally mess up the worldbuilding if you think about them at all. Saiyans being able to turn Super Saiyan if they focus on tingling their back kind of calls the entirety of Goku's training Gohan in the Cell arc into question, since if that's possible, and Cabbe of all people figured it out, Goku would have known about it... Beeerus telling Freeza to kil the Saiyans(?) kind of screws with all the stuff implied about why he actually did kill them, hell the mere presence of Beerus throughout such events, and his involvement with so many people calls into question why he was never mentioned before... The other universes each only having one Kaioshin instead of four makes no sense when you compare it to what we know about how Boo became the creature we know...

If Super contradicts something about previous worldbuilding, just assume it's a plot hole and move on, that's probably the easiest way to solve this.
In fact, if we can just ignore Super's existence entirely, that would please me greatly.

[ABED]

Piccolo Daimao being nothing more than evil incarnate and that being the difference between Daimao and Junior being utterly silly to me

It doesn't matter whether you like it. This thread wasn't about preferences. It's about what is or isn't.

"Gaining of a soul" that was never even vaguely hinted at in the story to my recollections is the reason why he was able to become the man he became as Junior entirely goes against this;

That's one of the questions of the thread. It's for someone who's knowledgable about Japanese culture. It wasn't stated in the story at all, but if I recall Kunzait's post, he said something to the effect of the concept of the demon being reborn with a soul is implicitly understood.

I don't think this is ever clarified in the story, but I believe external materials like the Daizenshuus say that they are born to either be Dragon Ball-makers, or fighters.

No, because Kami is clearly a fighter as well as a DB maker. They are either healers or warriors, but we're splitting hairs.

dictates how they behave, and that just seems clunky, lazy, and highly counterintuitive in a world that supposedly has free will.

Saying the world has free will and Piccolo Daimao didn't isn't counterintuitive. Certain being have free will (e.g. sentient beings, gods, etc.), but not all do. Not all beings have the same nature. Piccolo Daimao is a demon by his nature. He didn't become one. He was CREATED. Piccolo was born and wasn't a demon. I don't think that all boils down to choice.

[Robo4900]

I missed a post of yours, ABED.

Apologies.

Here's my response to it, it actually ties into your latest post quite nicely...

I dont' think he is a person first and foremost. His creation was inherently mystical. There's nothing biological about it.

Just because he was created by mystical means, doesn't mean he isn't a person. Is Majin Boo not a person?

He just wants destruction and death for its own sake. Given his arc of going from pure evil to hero requires more than just time. How is time any smarter than getting a soul? His origins are inherently mystical, but you balk at the idea of the beginning of his growth being neccessitated by something mystical as well. That is an awfully arbitrary line. I don't buy that if Daimao hadn't been reborn but had still been defeated, he would've made the same choices as his son.

I think Piccolo had to be reborn as something else (not a demon) for him to be open to change.

Yes, I do balk at the idea of his growth being necessitated by something mystical as well. Once someone is a character, a person, they have their own free will, and will do whatever they as a character what/need to do. Arbitrarily locking that behind some nonsensical mystical idea of "needing a soul to be good" is just utter nonsense. Making this odd distinction basically just decides that Piccolo Daimao was not a person. He talks, does he not? He thinks, does he not? He makes decisions, he reasons, he has wants, needs, etc... How is he not a person?

No it's not. You still need Gohan's kindness for him to make that change. You need both.

And yet, if we go with your idea of how this went, then if he had never "Gained a soul", Gohan's kindness would have been for nothing.

AH, so he is metaphysically different! Otherwise do you think his change of heart has that effect on him?

Dude, you're just being obtuse. Yes, he's metaphysically different, that doesn't make any difference to him as a person, as a character, it makes a difference to his physical presence in the world. He very obviously is not connected to the demon clan, he very obviously is not as tall as he was, he very obviously isn't spitting out demon children to carry out his will... Does that make a difference to the character at all? No, that would be stupid. The fact he's incapable of doing these things probably affects the events of the 11 years before he sacrifices himself to save Gohan, but only insofar as it changes his circumstances, forcing him to -- as a person -- confront a new reality, and potentially change... Which he did.

This thread isn't even really about what my preference or view is, it's to gain a better understanding. Am I right or am I wrong? It's true or false question.

I disagree. All interpretations here are valid, and I'm enjoying discussing this. I just happen to vehemently disagree with your interpretation, as I feel it cheapens Piccolo's character arc, and goes against the concept of free will and such.//

Piccolo Daimao being nothing more than evil incarnate and that being the difference between Daimao and Junior being utterly silly to me

It doesn't matter whether you like it. This thread wasn't about preferences. It's about what is or isn't.

Except, it absolutely is about preferences. This stuff is all subtext at best. None of this is actually clarified in the story. This is all about how we interpret the story; all such interpretations are valid, there's no way to decide who's right, only an interesting debate to be had about the merits and demerits of each interpretation. Arguing to find out who's right and who's wrong will probably be too frustrating to sustatin in a matter such as this. However, debating your interpretation of a story can yield a lot of value, and in my opinion, that is the value of this thread; not finding out who's right or wrong, but in strengthening, weakening, changing, or just simply re-examining your interpretations. Even if you don't change your mind, surely it's interesting to discuss, no?

No, because Kami is clearly a fighter as well as a DB maker. They are either healers or warriors, but we're splitting hairs.

To be fair, as I recall, this was something said in the Daizenshuus, and I always thought it was a really lame part of the worldbuilding that made very little sense, so I'd be pretty glad for us to just totally disregard that.

"Gaining of a soul" that was never even vaguely hinted at in the story to my recollections is the reason why he was able to become the man he became as Junior entirely goes against this;

That's one of the questions of the thread. It's for someone who's knowledgable about Japanese culture. It wasn't stated in the story at all, but if I recall Kunzait's post, he said something to the effect of the concept of the demon being reborn with a soul is implicitly understood.

Even if that's true, we are not Japanese, and even if an interpretation of a story is different from what the author intended, that doesn't make it invalid. Thinking for yourself about such things, and coming to a meaning that's important/relevant to you is generally regarded as a strong way of interpreting a story.
Remember, Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" is generally regarded as a genius deconstruction of dark and gritty tropes a bit like Watchmen was... But, Frank Miller wasn't trying to deconstruct anything, he was intending to play it straight. Zack Snyder did a similar thing with his screen adaptation of the Watchmen book, apparently(Admittedly, I haven't seen the film myself, only read the book), so does that mean the deconstructionist angle is wrong? No, it just means there's more than one way of interpreting a story. And that's normal.

[ABED]

And yet, if we go with your idea of how this went, then if he had never "Gained a soul", Gohan's kindness would have been for nothing.

Yes, and? You need both elements for it to work.

I disagree. All interpretations here are valid

It's my thread. I asked the question and it is a true or false question. I know because I'm the one who asked it.

Dude, you're just being obtuse.

Please don't talk down to me. There's no reason to be rude.

Even if that's true, we are not Japanese, and even if an interpretation of a story is different from what the author intended, that doesn't make it invalid. Thinking for yourself about such things, and coming to a meaning that's important/relevant to you is generally regarded as a strong way of interpreting a story.

This isn't a normative question, it's a postive question.

[Robo4900]

Yes, and? You need both elements for it to work.

Yes, and when Goku defeated Piccolo Daimao he needed both his determination, and the ultra divine plot convenience water. Does that make the ultra divine plot convenience any less of a total cop-out and any less of a lame story turn? No, if anything it cheapens the effort he put in, since it was simply something that enabled a total cop-out to occur. If we reframe Piccolo's turn from a character arc into a metaphysical transformation that happened because Goku made him be born again, then we turn a beautiful character turn into a metaphysical cop-out just as bad as if Vegeta reviving on Namek had suddenly given him a change of heart because his soul is cleansed or some bullcrap like that. It's a deus ex machina of the worst kind.

It's my thread. I asked the question and it is a true or false question. I know because I'm the one who asked it.

This is a conversation, so that's not how this works, I'm afraid.

[ABED]

Yes, and? You need both elements for it to work.

Yes, and when Goku defeated Piccolo Daimao he needed both his determination, and the ultra divine plot convenience water. Does that make the ultra divine plot convenience any less of a total cop-out and any less of a lame story turn? No, if anything it cheapens the effort he put in, since it was simply something that enabled a total cop-out to occur. If we reframe Piccolo's turn from a character arc into a metaphysical transformation that happened because Goku made him be born again, then we turn a beautiful character turn into a metaphysical cop-out just as bad as if Vegeta reviving on Namek had suddenly given him a change of heart because his soul is cleansed or some bullcrap like that.

It's my thread. I asked the question and it is a true or false question. I know because I'm the one who asked it.

This is a conversation, so that's not how this works, I'm afraid.

This isn't an example of a deus ex machina. Completely different issue.

Is Majin Boo not a person?

Which Buu? Pure Buu is a different character than fat Buu. Fat Buu took on not only the physical traits, but some of the personality traits of the beings he absorbed. That's one of the reasons he's both not as strong as his pure counterpart and why he is able change. It's due to Dai Kaioshin's influence.

This is a conversation, so that's not how this works, I'm afraid.

Then you've made this a different conversation. You are answering a completely different question.

I found the post I was looking for. Now I guess I'm looking for someone who's knowledgable about Eastern religions/folklore to expound on this.
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