Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by KBABZ » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:10 pm

Personally I always interpreted that Jr. is a separate individual from Daimao, although that is mainly from FUNi influence. To me the appeal of the character arc is that originally, Jr is a person who was given a mission to accomplish by his father and was created to do it, but grows out of it. Initially he's more than happy to carry it out, but his approach is quite different. He never spawns any offspring, and I could never see Daimao bothering with the pretense of the TB to get to Goku; he'd kill him on the spot. Nor could I see Daimao ever considering taking Gohan on as an apprentice; he would train himself and wouldn't bother with a student (if he wanted one he could have easily spawned one). In the FUNi Kai scene Kami says that here's been a change in Piccolo since he was reborn, and I personally interpret that to mean that Jr. is a fundamentally different individual from his father.

As the story goes on, Junior upkeeps his father's goal, but over time (whether he realizes it or not) he grows out of his father's shadow and the mission he was given. He discovers the true origin of himself and Kami and gets to visit Namek again. He makes new friends and allies beyond Gohan. And personally I believe that it moved him spiritually, and again when he and Kami remerge together. He has his brief outburst after meeting Cell that he still intends to take over the world, but even Krillin (who was killed by his father's actions) knows him well enough to know it was just a brief outburst. Eventually, Jr. doesn't even bother with his father's mission because he's a better person. For me that arc ties in very nicely with family tradition and inheritance of your parent's business and craft, and how for Jr. he must subvert that to grow as a person.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Toriyama's clear on this point, Piccolo Jr. is both father and son. As you said, he's fundamentally different, though the question is "why?"
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:25 pm

ABED wrote:Toriyama's clear on this point, Piccolo Jr. is both father and son. As you said, he's fundamentally different, though the question is "why?"
Yes, and the answer to that is not made clear. It's something that is up to interpretation. You previously said you're looking for an absolute answer, a yes/no in response to whether the theory you echoed in the opening post of this thread is correct or not, but while the greater question of "Why?" that you posit here has a great many answers, the yes/no question you're attempting to boil this down to regarding this one theory you seem to be stuck on has no possible answer.

You are asking "Is this theory about Piccolo gaining a soul when he was reborn true?", and that question cannot have an answer; that theory is one potential answer to the greater question of why Piccolo underwent such a grand change after his rebirth, but since there is no clear answer in the text of the manga and the show, and no external sources such as the Daizenshuus shed light on this(Though even if they did, I would still somewhat dispute the value of secondary sources like the Daizenshuus), the theory you refer to is only one possible answer, one possible interpretation. But, there can be no "Correct" answer, only a most commonly-accepted theory, the intent of the original author, and numerous alternative theories. Which one is right? Whichever one you consider right. And others may consider that answer wrong, with a different answer being what they consider to be the truth.

So, I'm happy to continue the debate about the merits of this theory, and naturally as a part of that I will offer my own interpretations of the events we're discussing, but if all you seek is a simple yes/no answer regarding this one theory, and you will counter my arguments about alternative interpretations with the fact that you opened this thread looking for a different kind of answer, all I can say is: Tough. That's not how interpretation of such things work, nor is it how conversation works, and all you'll accomplish by shutting this aspect of the conversation down is driving people(Or perhaps just me, I suppose) away, and totally killing off a large portion of where this conversation can go, vastly limiting the scope of the possible answer we may give you... You may have started the conversation with an initial question, but that doesn't mean you get to decide how the others involved converse, otherwise what's even the point in anyone other than yourself talking?
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:22 am

Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:Toriyama's clear on this point, Piccolo Jr. is both father and son. As you said, he's fundamentally different, though the question is "why?"
Yes, and the answer to that is not made clear. It's something that is up to interpretation. You previously said you're looking for an absolute answer, a yes/no in response to whether the theory you echoed in the opening post of this thread is correct or not, but while the greater question of "Why?" that you posit here has a great many answers, the yes/no question you're attempting to boil this down to regarding this one theory you seem to be stuck on has no possible answer.

You are asking "Is this theory about Piccolo gaining a soul when he was reborn true?", and that question cannot have an answer; that theory is one potential answer to the greater question of why Piccolo underwent such a grand change after his rebirth, but since there is no clear answer in the text of the manga and the show, and no external sources such as the Daizenshuus shed light on this(Though even if they did, I would still somewhat dispute the value of secondary sources like the Daizenshuus), the theory you refer to is only one possible answer, one possible interpretation. But, there can be no "Correct" answer, only a most commonly-accepted theory, the intent of the original author, and numerous alternative theories. Which one is right? Whichever one you consider right. And others may consider that answer wrong, with a different answer being what they consider to be the truth.

So, I'm happy to continue the debate about the merits of this theory, and naturally as a part of that I will offer my own interpretations of the events we're discussing, but if all you seek is a simple yes/no answer regarding this one theory, and you will counter my arguments about alternative interpretations with the fact that you opened this thread looking for a different kind of answer, all I can say is: Tough. That's not how interpretation of such things work, nor is it how conversation works, and all you'll accomplish by shutting this aspect of the conversation down is driving people(Or perhaps just me, I suppose) away, and totally killing off a large portion of where this conversation can go, vastly limiting the scope of the possible answer we may give you... You may have started the conversation with an initial question, but that doesn't mean you get to decide how the others involved converse, otherwise what's even the point in anyone other than yourself talking?
But if you want to keep arguing, fine. I think your view that 5 years just thinking in solitude after his defeat is enough to begin his change of character is weak sauce. I understand why you don't like the mystical aspect I've postulated, and I'm sympathetic to it in essence, but your interpretation about why he changed is what I find weak. He spends 100 years trapped with nothing to do but think and he doesn't change a bit, but 5 years and he's no longer a demon? He had already started changing as indicated by him fighting at the tournament and not doing anything in the three years leading up to it. The Daimao of old wouldn't have fought in a tournament. If his origins weren't inherently mystical, I would be inclined to agree with you, but Daimao is a demon of undiluted evil. Unfortunately, Toriyama doesn't expand much on what demons are in DB world, but it's safe to say that demons are more than just evil people. There's something metaphysically different, otherwise victims of most of the villains wouldn't wind up in the afterlife. Clearly something is going on more than a change of heart.

A better example than your hypothetical Vegeta one is Angel/Angelus from Buffy. In that world, vampires don't have souls. They have no conscience. They love destruction and death. Murder doesn't bother them. Angelus became one of the worst vampires ever with not only a huge body count, but due to his cruelty. He was never going to change. However, when he was cursed with a soul, he gets a conscience and free will. He doesn't suddenly become a good guy, either. It takes him time and effort to grow. Piccolo is in a very similar boat. I don't think a mystical catalyst cheapens either character's change. In your Vegeta example, you are saying it's an instant change from bad to good. It's not. Piccolo's change wasn't a light switch. It just gave him the capacity to change. Same with Angel. Even with souls, both Angel and Piccolo commit evil acts.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by linkdude20002001 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:39 am

I read about half the first page, and I’d like to say that I’m in favor of Robo4900’s mindset. As soon as Ma Junior appears in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budōkai, he was obviously very different from the Daimaoh that was pure evil and trying to conquer the world. Ma Junior, having to grow up from childhood, probably saw good people unlike before, which could lead to a mostly evil guy with some good in him (the opposite of the name-less son of Katats). I think even Gokuh said in the tournament that he seemd less evil...but I could be misremembering.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:42 pm

The difference between the two is Piccolo Jr. saw good people?
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:07 am

Always saw it as the old guy being the father and Piccolo being the son. That's what they start calling each other and that's what Kami calls them before recombining with Piccolo in the Cell Arc.
Piccolo's claims of being a reincarnation are just hyperbole, meant to frighten everyone and convince himself of his goals.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:57 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Always saw it as the old guy being the father and Piccolo being the son. That's what they start calling each other and that's what Kami calls them before recombining with Piccolo in the Cell Arc.
Piccolo's claims of being a reincarnation are just hyperbole, meant to frighten everyone and convince himself of his goals.
Reminds me of my theory that Freeza saying "5 minutes" was just something he pulled out of his ass to intimidate people.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:01 pm

Given the connection to Kami, it's safe to say we can take him at his word. Also, he grows from newborn to full grown adult in a span of three years. He's not a normal Namekian.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by linkdude20002001 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:53 am

ABED wrote:The difference between the two is Piccolo Jr. saw good people?
It could be that simpel. We learn and become who we are by what we see.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Michsi » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 am

First of all, my apologies, I sped trough this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating something that's already been said.

I think I remember the post referenced in the OP because I was in that discussion and here is what I remember: it started with how Funimation supposedly made a mistake by not making the reincarnation bit more evident with Piccolo and his father - which, from what I recall, is actually not accurate, as in Funimation dub of OG Dragon Ball, not only do they have both father and son be voiced by the same VA, they have Piccolo Jr. talk almost exclusively as if it was actually him Goku fought and killed three years prior.

I think Kunzait also said that the reason Piccolo Jr. was able to change was precisely because of the reincarnation, as the reincarnation process pretty much means a purification of the soul and that the reason this was never elaborated in the show because his is something that someone born and raised in Japan/Asia would've understood.

It's actually the original Japanese version that is more ambiguous on the matter. As the story progresses, though, the father/son relationship seems to take precedence over the reincarnation. Toriyama talks about them as if they are separate characters and even Kami makes that disction right before they fuse.

Personally, I also think they are two separate characters. The reincarnation aspect still stands as Piccolo, but I don't think they share the same soul. It's more like the "role of god's evil side/demon king" has been passes on along with his powers and connection to god.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:24 am

linkdude20002001 wrote:
ABED wrote:The difference between the two is Piccolo Jr. saw good people?
It could be that simpel. We learn and become who we are by what we see.
Daimao saw plenty of good people. Problem is he wanted to murder them.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by KBABZ » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 am

The main difference to me between Daimao and Jr. is that Daimao is literally an incarnation of evil, and Jr. doesn't entirely fit that despite following his previous self's goals. I have a hard time imagining Daimao having any of the compassion Jr. does because I feel he's absolutely incapable of it (outside of his spawn when they get killed).

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:01 am

ABED wrote:
linkdude20002001 wrote:
ABED wrote:The difference between the two is Piccolo Jr. saw good people?
It could be that simpel. We learn and become who we are by what we see.
Daimao saw plenty of good people. Problem is he wanted to murder them.
More accurately, Daimao saw good people, and then went on to either murder them, have someone else murder them, or was busy trying to murder someone else, and thus never paid attention. Junior had to live several years as a child, and grow in this world. It's like I've said all along: Daimao was too busy trying to kill everyone to take the time to think about any of this, or observe any human behavior.
KBABZ wrote:The main difference to me between Daimao and Jr. is that Daimao is literally an incarnation of evil, and Jr. doesn't entirely fit that despite following his previous self's goals. I have a hard time imagining Daimao having any of the compassion Jr. does because I feel he's absolutely incapable of it (outside of his spawn when they get killed).
So, you don't see him being capable of compassion, except for when he is? I think you may want to think this through a little more, dude... :lol:
Michsi wrote:as the reincarnation process pretty much means a purification of the soul and that the reason this was never elaborated in the show because his is something that someone born and raised in Japan/Asia would've understood.
I honestly think this is kind of a cop-out answer... :lol:
"they don't say this in the story but its true because if you are japanese you'd know" is what it boils down to, and... IDK, just sounds dismissive of potential criticism of the theory. Not to throw shade on Kunzait, I'm sure that wasn't his intention, but the way the "it's a japanese thing" point is being used in this thread that I've seen so far has been very much of the "nah this theory is better than yours because japanese culture i guess?" with no actual discussion or exploration of what aspects of Japanese culture this fan theory you guys are going all in on exactly play to, no discussion of how these tie into Toriyama himself, nothing about the relevance of authorial intent in media vs how it comes off from others' points of view, etc...

This is a potentially very deep well of discussion, but so far all my attempts to dig into that have kind of been pushed aside in favour of "nah i prefer my fan theory over yours thanks"... >_<
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:49 am

More accurately, Daimao saw good people, and then went on to either murder them, have someone else murder them, or was busy trying to murder someone else, and thus never paid attention. Junior had to live several years as a child, and grow in this world. It's like I've said all along: Daimao was too busy trying to kill everyone to take the time to think about any of this, or observe any human behavior.
There's little reason to believe Piccolo Jr. observed humans either before or after the 23rd TB. He lived in solitude and trained and dwelled on getting revenge. Actually taking the time to observe people is a flimy reason for such a reversal.

I understand where you are coming from. If he becomes good for any reason that's not volitional, it seems to undercut the progress he makes, but I disagree for two reasons: 1) He was a being pure evil created by the child of Katatsu shedding the evil from himself. It's an interesting philosophical idea, is Daimao technically evil if he didn't have a choice? And 2) Piccolo Jr. still does some evil things, including killing an island full of people, so he still comes a long way even if he isn't the same Piccolo Daimao.

And Piccolo doesn't show compassion for his spawn. That's tribalism, not love.
point is being used in this thread that I've seen so far has been very much of the "nah this theory is better than yours because japanese culture i guess?" with no actual discussion or exploration of what aspects of Japanese culture this fan theory you guys are going all in on exactly play to, no discussion of how these tie into Toriyama himself, nothing about the relevance of authorial intent in media vs how it comes off from others' points of view, etc...
That was the whole point of the thread! I'm ignorant of those aspects of JPN culture and so I was trying to get someone who knows the subject to chime in.
This is a potentially very deep well of discussion, but so far all my attempts to dig into that have kind of been pushed aside in favour of "nah i prefer my fan theory over yours thanks"... >_<
Then you missed the point I was making. I wasn't positing a theory, I was asking a question. And I have said several times, I understand where you are coming from. What I'm dismissing is that I don't think we've gotten to that part of the discussion yet.

There is thread about Tenshinhan's origins where Toriyama talks about Tenshinhan's third eye. "In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised by the evil Tsuru-Sen'nin [Crane Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes." So it stands to reason that Toriyama has borrowed other ideas from Asian religions/folklore and used them in his stories even if they aren't brought up explicitly. I don't consider that a cop out as much as possibly bad writing as even if it's understood by your target audience implicitly, it still hasn't been properly contextualized in your story.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by KBABZ » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:10 am

ABED wrote:
More accurately, Daimao saw good people, and then went on to either murder them, have someone else murder them, or was busy trying to murder someone else, and thus never paid attention. Junior had to live several years as a child, and grow in this world. It's like I've said all along: Daimao was too busy trying to kill everyone to take the time to think about any of this, or observe any human behavior.
There's little reason to believe Piccolo Jr. observed humans either before or after the 23rd TB. He lived in solitude and trained and dwelled on getting revenge. Actually taking the time to observe people is a flimy reason for such a reversal.

I understand where you are coming from. If he becomes good for any reason that's not volitional, it seems to undercut the progress he makes, but I disagree for two reasons: 1) He was a being pure evil created by the child of Katatsu shedding the evil from himself. It's an interesting philosophical idea, is Daimao technically evil if he didn't have a choice? And 2) Piccolo Jr. still does some evil things, including killing an island full of people, so he still comes a long way even if he isn't the same Piccolo Daimao.
I think it bears mentioning that any instances of Piccolo Jr. from when Daimao spits out his egg up until his reveal at the TB qualification hall are anime-exclusive. Jr. burning the elderly home, freaking out the men on the ship, running away from dogs after stealing from a house and discovering his abilities, and saving the girl from being crushed by rubble before the tournament (among others) weren't in the manga.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Michsi » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:41 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Michsi wrote:as the reincarnation process pretty much means a purification of the soul and that the reason this was never elaborated in the show because his is something that someone born and raised in Japan/Asia would've understood.
I honestly think this is kind of a cop-out answer... :lol:
"they don't say this in the story but its true because if you are japanese you'd know" is what it boils down to, and... IDK, just sounds dismissive of potential criticism of the theory. Not to throw shade on Kunzait, I'm sure that wasn't his intention, but the way the "it's a japanese thing" point is being used in this thread that I've seen so far has been very much of the "nah this theory is better than yours because japanese culture i guess?" with no actual discussion or exploration of what aspects of Japanese culture this fan theory you guys are going all in on exactly play to, no discussion of how these tie into Toriyama himself, nothing about the relevance of authorial intent in media vs how it comes off from others' points of view, etc...

This is a potentially very deep well of discussion, but so far all my attempts to dig into that have kind of been pushed aside in favour of "nah i prefer my fan theory over yours thanks"... >_<
I wasn't sold on that version as well, especially since other Japanese shows treat the reincarnation plot/ theme differently as well, so there is no set-in-stone cultural symbolism that can be applied in this case either.

Additionally, there was an old DB game with a side-story or something that had Piccolo Jr. meet his father in hell, so I suppose it's safe to say that they are mostly treated as separate characters. The reason why Piccolo Jr. was different from the original pretty much from the very beginning is precisely because he was also the child of the Demon King and not strictly his reincarnation/copy. He was meant to be seen as his own character and not the old Demon King under a new guise.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:46 pm

We aren't saying he's a copy. He's both at the same time. It's a Jesus/God thing where they are both father and son simultaneously.
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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by Michsi » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:03 pm

I used the word "copy" because iIrc, they actually do use that word to describe Jr. in relation to his father at some point in the translated version. I think the actually word in Japanese means "clone" or "doppelganger" , but the point is that I don't think it's 100% correct.

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Re: Piccolo Daimao / Piccolo Jr.

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:29 pm

Michsi wrote:I used the word "copy" because iIrc, they actually do use that word to describe Jr. in relation to his father at some point in the translated version. I think the actually word in Japanese means "clone" or "doppelganger" , but the point is that I don't think it's 100% correct.
I think we're getting caught up in the nomenclature. I and others aren't arguing that Piccolo Jr. is a clone or doppelganger, but he's clearly more than a mere son. He's not a typical Namekian either. He has all of Daimao's memories and his connection to Kami. He grew up to full adult in three years even though Dende takes much longer to reach maturity. He's also not a demon like his father as evidence of Raditz going to the afterlife, a point that Kami makes clear.

Piccolo Jr. is both father and son, as trippy as that sounds. As I recall even the other characters don't talk about Daimao as if he was Piccolo's father.
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