Poor, poor Goten.

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Poor, poor Goten.

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:49 am

He's nothing more than a means for Trunks to acquire a stronger form through fusion.

He's got it worse than Yamcha, even. :(
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by KBABZ » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:11 am

Having watched Kai, I really liked Goten's character as he's very chip and cheerful, and voiced very adorably. But as is obvious, completely wasted as a character, a leftover product of when Gohan was attending high school.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:25 am

You forgot that he is also a means for Goku to get mad, like we clearly saw in the Zamasu arc. If Broly will be way too powerful for Goku to beat, just have him kill Goten and that should make Goku really mad. See? Goten can be relevant to the plot, in his own way.

Hey, at least he is not considered an absolute joke by 90% of the viewers like Yamcha, Tien and Krillin.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:05 am

If there is something I really would like to know, is how his fanbase (if there is such a thing) is doing. The guy doesn't do anything on his own, hell, he isn't even capable of growing up by himself. He would only grow up if Trunks ever grow up, otherwise as long as the latter keeps being erroneously portrayed, so does Goten.

What's the point of the character anyway? I mean, that reflects in the games too, apart from Heroes, which he got to be a Time Patroller, got the Ultimate transformation and got a nice "screentime" and role in Ultimate Mission X, I don't remember anything else that makes him stand out.
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:13 am

He should become a villain ;)
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by shadowmaria » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:26 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Hey, at least he is not considered an absolute joke by 90% of the viewers like Yamcha, Tien and Krillin.
And the people that think like that generally haven't seen Dragon Ball and most of their exposure has been Yamcha's death to the Saibaman, Krillin's meme'd existence, and then Tien only put up a(n excellent) fight against Nappa, proved to be able to stall Semi-Perfect Cell, was able to take Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed) by surprise before getting knocked out.

I have no respect for those people.

Goten, on the other hand, started off as an excellent tag-team partner to Trunks, but then became an entertaining but annoyingly dropped into being a plot device for Fusion. With that said, he looked great in Broly: Second Coming and especially Bio-Broly; however Dragon Ball Super severely dropped the ball and sadly he (and Trunks to a degree) had absolutely nothing of note to do aside from in the first episode and in the Planet Potaufeu arc.

A right, damn shame too. Kid Goten has sadly become less and less relevant as we hurdle towards the end of Z.

Thankfully the end of Z seemed to give him direction about becoming a more hardened martial artist, training with Goku and all that. Furthermore, Dragon Ball GT also honoured Goten's development as a child to becoming a late teen/young adult in a peaceful world (stupid haircut, a girlfriend, cell phone), and he had a lot of great showings considering the peace time against Baby, Super #17, and even Omega Shenron. He couldn't do much in the grand scheme of things aside from sending villains back to Hell, but still put up a solid showing without being solely Trunks' tag-team partner

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Kokonoe » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:49 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Hey, at least he is not considered an absolute joke by 90% of the viewers like Yamcha, Tien and Krillin.
I'd say he's even worse.

Tien has his own school and is completely self sufficient in his training, and is that is always his main focus. He also has had some pretty cool moments like his fight with Goku in Dragon Ball, and him holding off Imperfect Cell.
Krillin has Android 18, a daughter, and is now a police officer. He also achieved a lot during his lifetime and this is kinda the final few chapters of his life so it makes sense why he has settled down.

What is Goten exactly? He is Goku fan service that never took off and ended up being fusion fodder for Trunks. There's not much that goes on inside his head, he has no real unique thoughts or personality traits, and without Trunks he's practically worthless. Even though Yamcha is a joke no question, but he is still his own person.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:42 am

Goten feels more half of a gimmick than an actual character. I never really found him interesting on his own, and the fact they still haven't bothered to age him (and Trunks) up yet kinda speaks volumes for the complete apathy they have towards Goten (and Trunks)
ekrolo2 wrote:He should become a villain ;)
Don't you start. :P

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by KBABZ » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:41 am

Grimlock wrote:What's the point of the character anyway?
I believe that he's an artifact of when the story was more about Goten and high school. He probably would have had more potential there before Fusion was introduced and he could act more as an independant character, but then Toriyama shifted the direction of the story to the Tournament and then Buu, all the while moving the focus away from the next generation and back to Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:29 am

He doesn't need to be a front-and-cemter character. He represents what I really enjoy about Dragon Ball -- he represents that life goes on. Nobody really cares that Marron was never really utilized, right? Why is Goten any different? He served his little role in the Gohan/Great Saiyaman story, and that was it. Not every character needs to be a big focus of the story. In fact, as a character, he'd never ever live up to his father's legacy. You can make Goten the main protagonist of the entire thing and people will still feel that Goku overshadows him (kind of like why Gohan was so back-and-forth).

Just because he exists and is Goku's kid, doesn't mean that he needs some big role. Again, nobody has a problem with Marron's portrayal. What's the difference? I think that people got a little too ahead of themselves when fan-writing a story in their head, while the character might have never been meant to be a big time player.

I'm also of the mindset that if the writer(s) can't come up with a genuine story, it's best to just keep the character in the background instead of shoehorning the character just because the fans might want to see that character do something. Sometimes less is more and I'd rather legitimate less than lackluster more.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by GT_Goten10 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:57 am

I just hope we will see his EOZ/GT Version sometime

Image
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:26 pm

Goten doesn't really exist outside of GT (even there he is still minor character) but i still like his DBZ version.
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Ssjcell » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:23 pm

Everyone needs to calm down goten is extremely strong for his age. I think the problem is that him and trunks just love fusion if they fought independent of each other they would develop a lot more. I think goten is doing alright he is still a strong super sayain , he's getting an education, and he has a family that loves him that's pretty good for a 9 year old boy.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:He should become a villain ;)
Don't you start. :P
Nah, I'm serious, I want somebody to make Goten Black happen and make it good.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:19 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:He should become a villain ;)
Don't you start. :P
Nah, I'm serious, I want somebody to make Goten Black happen and make it good.
Can you do it? :)

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:41 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Don't you start. :P
Nah, I'm serious, I want somebody to make Goten Black happen and make it good.
Can you do it? :)
I got something in mind, I'll PM it to you.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Bleh, I've never liked Goten. Just a one-dimensional "cute" character, which I've never liked anyway, and a transparent attempt at revivng the Kid Goku aesthetic that was of course taken to the extreme with GT. I find Kid Trunks to be an annoying brat too, but at least he's funny and I like him as a contrast to Future Trunks. You have the mild-mannered, no-nonsense personality shaped by a terrible future, and then the obnoxious shit who clearly grew up with Vegeta in his life and is essentially Bart SImpson :P
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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:54 pm

GT_Goten10 wrote:I just hope we will see his EOZ/GT Version sometime

Image
At least Dragon Ball Heroes made him relevant again which is nice

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Waluigiman » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:26 am

shadowmaria wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Hey, at least he is not considered an absolute joke by 90% of the viewers like Yamcha, Tien and Krillin.
And the people that think like that generally haven't seen Dragon Ball and most of their exposure has been Yamcha's death to the Saibaman, Krillin's meme'd existence, and then Tien only put up a(n excellent) fight against Nappa, proved to be able to stall Semi-Perfect Cell, was able to take Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed) by surprise before getting knocked out.

I have no respect for those people.

Goten, on the other hand, started off as an excellent tag-team partner to Trunks, but then became an entertaining but annoyingly dropped into being a plot device for Fusion. With that said, he looked great in Broly: Second Coming and especially Bio-Broly; however Dragon Ball Super severely dropped the ball and sadly he (and Trunks to a degree) had absolutely nothing of note to do aside from in the first episode and in the Planet Potaufeu arc.

A right, damn shame too. Kid Goten has sadly become less and less relevant as we hurdle towards the end of Z.

Thankfully the end of Z seemed to give him direction about becoming a more hardened martial artist, training with Goku and all that. Furthermore, Dragon Ball GT also honoured Goten's development as a child to becoming a late teen/young adult in a peaceful world (stupid haircut, a girlfriend, cell phone), and he had a lot of great showings considering the peace time against Baby, Super #17, and even Omega Shenron. He couldn't do much in the grand scheme of things aside from sending villains back to Hell, but still put up a solid showing without being solely Trunks' tag-team partner
I am glad I am not included.
Goten's problem itself is also his solution. It will be nice if he notices too and tries to do something about it as he realizes he looks too Goku and his mother is trying to make him a Gohan and he relies too much on Trunks or his fusion. Of course I don't know if this will make him too different or better.

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Re: Poor, poor Goten.

Post by Shaddy » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:45 am

The thing that always struck me about Goten is how much more he wants to be like his dad despite being without him for the first seven years of his life. It's in stark contrast from his brother, who lived a decent portion of your life with Goku, but ended up stepping away from fighting to pursue his academic career. Chi Chi clearly wants the same for Goten, but she trained him to fight herself (or was that anime filler?) and he obviously doesn't have the same passion for studies as Gohan. He also makes a good foul to Trunks, who's essentially the opposite, growing more arrogant and mischievous with Vegeta's influence despite his future version being much more objectively-motivated.

The problem all really starts with Gotenks. Individually, we didn't have any major grounding for Trunks and Goten's strengths, since their only major fights were with each other or the one as mighty mask. They both can go Super Saiyan but it's obviously weaker than the other's use of it. Gotenks however, was constantly up against Buu, the strongest character in the series at the time, and fought him in multiple different forms, AS multiple different forms. It was a big enough gap that pretty much everything they were individually combat-wise amounted to basically just being one half of Gotenks. This held true for Battle of Gods as well.

However, the real accentuation of the issue comes after that, timeline-wise. Or before that, I guess. Future Trunks, that is. It's all because of Future Trunks that Goten has fallen to the wayside, because his presence and popularity is likely what got Trunks his place in GT as a character, and his return in Super along with Mai pushed forward the development of kid Trunks. Goten has no future version to tether him to things, and no major chemistry with anyone other than Trunks and maybe Gohan. If Goten was born during the pre-Android timeskip like Trunks rather than after it, I have confidence that a future Goten's presence (haha Goku Black joke goes here) would keep him on a similar level to Trunks, if not slightly less due to not being involved in the android arc.

What Goten really needs is individuality. To stop acting as just an accessory to Trunks, or Goku and Chi Chi, or anyone else. He needs to meet someone new on his own, make a decision disagreeing with someone else, or hell, just get the shit kicked out of him alone. Some reason to think of him as anything else than what he has been for the majority of his presence in the series. My preference? Stop trying to apply Gohan's success, and just be a fighter. Next time Chi Chi comes out of the house saying "the fuck Goten you need to be studying", just say no! I don't want to! I'm going to McDonald's! And instantly we have a more mobile character with some actual agency.

I'm less concerned with the whole not aging them thing, it's annoying, but I'm not expecting them to pull a Chiaotzu and keep both kids as children for all eternity. They're pushing it with Super and it's movie, but if another timeskip longer than a year happens, I don't think we'll have anything to worry about.

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