Fan Perceptions of Son Goku's characterization: Then vs Now

[RandomGuy96]

Wrong on both counts. It's neither lazy nor did Goku make any elaborate plans. He began training Goten and Trunks to fuse, but that's a very simple plan.

Don't try to change the subject. I said meticulous, not elaborate. And it was meticulous. Goku planned for all outcomes, because he recognized that it was important Earth have a protector. He recognized that it was more important than him having a good fight, and threw away the chance at a good fight to accomplish this plan. Super Goku would never do this.

If Goku believes it's his job to defend the Earth, he doesn't do a great job of it since he puts the Earth in jeopardy several times. It sometimes works out for the best, but that's an unintended benefit.

His awareness of his role as Earth's protector in the Buu arc, and his decision to stay dead for the sake of not attracting attention to Earth, debunks this headcanon. It's not unintended. He acknowledges this role. He's just inconsistent about when he applies it because Toriyama is lazy.

If you think he proactively tries to end threats, you're just wrong. He NEVER proactively ends threats unless it's immediate.

A meaningless distinction, and another attempt to change the subject. He doesn't even try to proactively end immediate threats in Super.

I believe you misunderstand the character as you don't truly understand what Goku means by fighting for fun and pride. It's brought up in Battle of Gods. He doesn't like having to rely on others to defeat an enemy, but he'll do it out of necessity. That doesn't mean he throws away his love of fighting out of the whims of the plot. He's pragmatic.

He's pragmatic except when he's not; he wants to bypass fighting Raditz or Super Buu altogether yet also wants Golden Freeza, who already became stronger than him in 4 months, to get even stronger. His character is not consistent. He goes from wanting to team up at the soonest opportunity to disdaining the whole idea of teamwork depending on the chapter, even in the original manga. But he was still more consistent there than he is in any of the new stuff.

I wouldn't bring up Vegeta's role in the Kid Buu fight. He was the one who destroyed the Potara earing first.

Kibitoshin offered a brand new unbroken pair later, Goku rejected them and then regretted it. Then in Super he just doesn't want to use fusion or even teamwork ever again, for no reason at all.

None of your examples prove your point.

You having terrible reading comprehension is not my problem.

[ABED]

The idea of Earth's protector is brought up, but it's not what the story was EVER about and Goku mostly pays lip service to it. It's not his raison d'etre. Toriyama tried to make a whole thing about the next generation taking over but abandoned that idea almost as soon as he started it. As a consequence the final arc has a very unfocused feeling. The actual ending centering on Goku is far more consistent with his character. It's not about him or finding a successor to save the world. It's about Goku finding ever higher mountains to climb. And even the point Goku makes at the end of the Cell arc is pure lip service. Goku mostly wants to meet the powerful fighters in the afterlife.

Goku planned for ALL possible outcomes? When? Coulda fooled me with how surprised he was and how none of his plans ultimately worked the way he wanted if at all.

A meaningless distinction, and another attempt to change the subject. He doesn't even try to proactively end immediate threats in Super.

It's a vital distinction! Goku lets bad guys go explicitly because he wants a better fight and Dr. Gero create the cyborgs for the sake of a fight. However, when confronted immediately with an innocent life in danger, he will actively try to stop the threat. I did not change the subject. How is that not on subject? You keep ducking the cyborg issue.

He doesn't bypass Raditz. And Golden Freeza was never stronger than Goku. Teaming up with Raditz is pragmatic when he literally can not even hope to win on his own. He only seems to do so immediately because of how quickly it's proven that he can't survive a one on one fight. Raditz defeated him with a single knee to the stomach. You dropped important context. Goku's pragmatic when he has no other option, at least not one he can see.

Goku rejected them and then regretted it.

People can seemingly act inconsistent, but still be consistent in their psychology. Toriyama isn't writing him out of character to facilitate plot. Of course Goku regrets it. He was likely going to die without them. I think he honestly thought he and Vegeta might be able to win against Kid Buu until he was proven to be mistaken. Even he was shocked by how powerful Kid Buu was.

I'm glad Toriyama ultimately doesn't make it a superhero story because we have plenty of them.

[KBABZ]

Raditz was different because he had captured his son and said he'd slaughter the Earth if Goku didn't do the same. It was about far more than just that fight at that point and Goku was constantly reminded of it in Gohan. For that battle, Goku was more bent on having Raditz killed (which I will admit is at odds with how Toriyama wrote the character much later for Vegeta/Nappa) than engaging in a sparring battle.

Honestly I think later examples of Goku letting characters like Vegeta and Frieza go are him sort of forgetting what's at stake and focusing on the "hey this guy is fun to fight!" aspect. Krillin has to remind him of it when he's told to not kill Vegeta with Yajirobe's sword, and there are many moments in the fight with Frieza, particularly early on, where Goku is taking the fight far too casually considering who Frieza is and what's at stake. It takes Frieza killing Krillin, wounding Piccolo and threatening to slaughter Gohan for him to take the fight seriously in terms of why he's supposed to be defeating Frieza in the first place, outside of being the victor in martial arts.

[ABED]

There's that, but also, there was no fight to be had. Goku knew he stood ZERO chance of winning when he had lost quicker than Peter McNeeley did to Mike Tyson.

I don't think Goku has ever forgotten what's at stake, but knowing the stakes and acting on them are two different things and like I said, Goku is very concrete bound.

I'm glad he doesn't turn into a proactive protector of the good. He's still heroic, but he's not a superhero. I have seen plenty of those. This sort of character is new to me. From what I'm reading it seems many get frustrated by Goku not becoming Earth's protector.

[KBABZ]

I'm glad he doesn't turn into a proactive protector of the good. He's still heroic, but he's not a superhero. I have seen plenty of those. This sort of character is new to me. From what I'm reading it seems many get frustrated by Goku not becoming Earth's protector.

I agree as well, because those stories (as seen with Gohan's breif stint as the main character) often devolve into the usual life-balance that many other stories and comics tread ground on. Goku doesn't have that dual life aspect because he isn't going out of his way to find injustice to right, so he's able to focus more on training and his personal life (aka eating, haha), and so the story itself is able to focus more on fighting the current villains than having bits where Goku's like "Oh no, we're in a city! Better find some contrived way to protect my identity!". About the only time Goku appears like a protector is during the Red Ribbon Arc, and that's mainly because they're both after the same things and Goku develops a personal hatred of them because of their actions in the past.

I mean it says a lot that nearly every single movie and every single arc focused around a villain typically starts with the protagonists bumping into the villain as a matter of circumstance, or that it's the villain who seeks out our heroes, not the other way around.

[jjgp1112]

I always found Toriyama's notion that Toei Goku is too heroic puzzling. People use him reviving a bird in movie 5 as proof but honestly, him giving Freeza Ki and another chance to not be a rotten scumbag despite him killing Krillin as way more of a heroic thing to do.

Goku's actions and specifically his dialog to Freeza when he donates energy is nothing on the level of his tireless monologue about protecting Earth in DBZ movie 3 and literally bringing a bird back to life in DBZ movie 5.

Koyama's infatuated with Goku serving as a protector and having the character both know and constantly state he's a protector, whereas — as stated in the two citations I've provided above — Toriyama's version of the character will certainly do those things and knows they're good things to do, but they're not his sole driving force.

Going beyond this and back to Movie 5 - "HEY GUYS WHAT ABOUT THE ANIMALS" when he was recovering under the rock is pretty much peak Toei Goku.

His deal with Frieza was certainly altruistic, but I don't think it was at all out of some righteous sense of heroicness - he pitied him and was naive enough to think he wouldn't bother him again.

Wrong on both counts. It's neither lazy nor did Goku make any elaborate plans. He began training Goten and Trunks to fuse, but that's a very simple plan. Goku thinks off the cuff most of the time.

If Goku believes it's his job to defend the Earth, he doesn't do a great job of it since he puts the Earth in jeopardy several times. It sometimes works out for the best, but that's an unintended benefit. No one here is claiming Goku doesn't care about innocent lives.

Goku never abandoned his love of fighting for fun and pride. He lets Vegeta go for that very reason. If you think he proactively tries to end threats, you're just wrong. He NEVER proactively ends threats unless it's immediate. He didn't against the cyborgs. Teaming with Piccolo was a move he did out of necessity to survive. Goku is very concrete bound. I believe you misunderstand the character as you don't truly understand what Goku means by fighting for fun and pride. It's brought up in Battle of Gods. He doesn't like having to rely on others to defeat an enemy, but he'll do it out of necessity. That doesn't mean he throws away his love of fighting out of the whims of the plot. He's pragmatic.

I wouldn't bring up Vegeta's role in the Kid Buu fight. He was the one who destroyed the Potara earing first. None of this is contrived. He acts in character the whole time. None of your examples prove your point.

Yup, nd going back to the Raditz thing, it was made VERY clear that he was not thrilled about that battle. He was trying to rescue his son, and that superceded everything - he went as far as outright saying that he'd normally be excited meeting a guy as strong as Raditz, but instead he was terrified. He'd do anything to rescue his son, so that doesn't really fall into the Saiyan lust for battle.

[Kid Buu]

It just seems to me that Toriyama just alters the characters mindset to fit the dramatic nature of a scene. The Android/Cell arc is full of these.

[ABED]

Yup, nd going back to the Raditz thing, it was made VERY clear that he was not thrilled about that battle. He was trying to rescue his son, and that superceded everything - he went as far as outright saying that he'd normally be excited meeting a guy as strong as Raditz, but instead he was terrified. He'd do anything to rescue his son, so that doesn't really fall into the Saiyan lust for battle.

He's not inconsistent. He's not excited every single moment of every battle. Even against Vegeta at first he has this moment where he's excited because Vegeta's so strong. It's like to you guys battle lust means it consumes them every single second of every single battle and that nothing else can be a priority at any point. That's not how Goku is. He can definitely prioritize fighting to protect someone, but he still will make questionable decisions for the sake of a fight, usually when he's in control or when there's some distance. That's not lack of consistency.

What is your fundamental point?

[Kuwabara]

He's not inconsistent. He's not excited every single moment of every battle. Even against Vegeta at first he has this moment where he's excited because Vegeta's so strong. It's like to you guys battle lust means it consumes them every single second of every single battle and that nothing else can be a priority at any point.

Going to go ahead and agree that characters don't necessarily have to be 100% consistent across all situations. Context is important in terms of the narrative, and people change their minds or react differently to familiar situations all the time based on a billion different factors, it's part of being a person.

[jjgp1112]

Yup, nd going back to the Raditz thing, it was made VERY clear that he was not thrilled about that battle. He was trying to rescue his son, and that superceded everything - he went as far as outright saying that he'd normally be excited meeting a guy as strong as Raditz, but instead he was terrified. He'd do anything to rescue his son, so that doesn't really fall into the Saiyan lust for battle.

He's not inconsistent. He's not excited every single moment of every battle. Even against Vegeta at first he has this moment where he's excited because Vegeta's so strong. It's like to you guys battle lust means it consumes them every single second of every single battle and that nothing else can be a priority at any point. That's not how Goku is. He can definitely prioritize fighting to protect someone, but he still will make questionable decisions for the sake of a fight, usually when he's in control or when there's some distance. That's not lack of consistency.

What is your fundamental point?

I was agreeing with you.

[SaiyanGod117]

There has been a lot more hate on Goku’s character ever since Super started, which shouldn’t be surprising as the writers for the Super anime made his unlikable traits quite a bit more noticeable as well as flanderized him.

[ABED]

Yup, nd going back to the Raditz thing, it was made VERY clear that he was not thrilled about that battle. He was trying to rescue his son, and that superceded everything - he went as far as outright saying that he'd normally be excited meeting a guy as strong as Raditz, but instead he was terrified. He'd do anything to rescue his son, so that doesn't really fall into the Saiyan lust for battle.

He's not inconsistent. He's not excited every single moment of every battle. Even against Vegeta at first he has this moment where he's excited because Vegeta's so strong. It's like to you guys battle lust means it consumes them every single second of every single battle and that nothing else can be a priority at any point. That's not how Goku is. He can definitely prioritize fighting to protect someone, but he still will make questionable decisions for the sake of a fight, usually when he's in control or when there's some distance. That's not lack of consistency.

What is your fundamental point?

I was agreeing with you.

I didn't get that, apologies.

[MajinMan]

There has been a lot more hate on Goku’s character ever since Super started, which shouldn’t be surprising as the writers for the Super anime made his unlikable traits quite a bit more noticeable as well as flanderized him.

The only time I’ve really had an issue with his flanderizing was during some scenes in the Future Trunks arc. I still believe that a lot of people, specifically dub only fans, were shocked that the real Goku is almost completely different than the one they’re used to, and that that’s what initially caused the uproar.

[Attitudefan]

Here's the thing, when Goku let's Vegeta go, he admits it is a bad idea and it really is just a selfish request. He's not stupid. It's not like he wants Vegeta to be let go and assumes everything will be alright and doesn't understand the consequences of these actions. Goku DOES understand that he is doing something that is not right!

By God, Goku was home schooled by the Turtle Hermit and he learned to count and do math! This is established by the fact that Goku realized he wasn't as old as he once thought before when he is fighting in his first tournament! Goku is NOT DUMB nor does he have a low IQ. This is what I love about a serialized series, we see Goku grow and mature into a man that is more adapted to the world around him. This is established that he could take care of a child for 5 years with his wife. He goes from a hick from the sticks who doesn't know what a car is to taking care of a family. He is not a special needs person; Goku is a fully functioning adult.

In hindsight, Saiyan arc Goku is probably the most mature Goku. His introduction as a father and teaming up with Piccolo, shows that he has matured as a fighter and a person. He puts ego aside to save those in need. Compare that to when he fights J.R. in the tournament an arc prior, where he refuses help, is the juxtaposition needed to show his maturity's development over a 5 year period.

If he can't count up to 10 in Super, than this is just a flanderization of his character. He was able to count and do math as a child, and have more functional abilities as he continues to age, such as raising a family in his off-period from fighting. Yet, now he cannot count or know what kissing is... purely a plothole and flanderization of his traits of being naive and ignorant to some societal norms. In Z, Goku is never really shown to misunderstand situations anymore unlike his child version of himself.

[KBABZ]

If he can't count up to 10 in Super, than this is just a flanderization of his character. He was able to count and do math as a child, and have more functional abilities as he continues to age, such as raising a family in his off-period from fighting. Yet, now he cannot count or know what kissing is... purely a plothole and flanderization of his traits of being naive and ignorant to some societal norms. In Z, Goku is never really shown to misunderstand situations anymore unlike his child version of himself.

It is a plothole because in the 21st TB interview alongside Krillin he directly says that he's corrected his age because Launch told him which order the numbers are (11 and 13, I believe), both of which are of course after ten. Not to mention he could always get 70% of the way before that considering he has no trouble knowing how much seven (as in, seven Dragon Balls) is.

[Attitudefan]

If he can't count up to 10 in Super, than this is just a flanderization of his character. He was able to count and do math as a child, and have more functional abilities as he continues to age, such as raising a family in his off-period from fighting. Yet, now he cannot count or know what kissing is... purely a plothole and flanderization of his traits of being naive and ignorant to some societal norms. In Z, Goku is never really shown to misunderstand situations anymore unlike his child version of himself.

It is a plothole because in the 21st TB interview alongside Krillin he directly says that he's corrected his age because Launch told him which order the numbers are (11 and 13, I believe), both of which are of course after ten. Not to mention he could always get 70% of the way before that considering he has no trouble knowing how much seven (as in, seven Dragon Balls) is.

Exactly. Hence, his character in Super is flanderized.

[Xell]

It wasn't until I rewatched a portion of Dragonball (in the form of Kai: TFC to be exact), that I realised Toei had sort of messed up Goku's character in Super.

Goku's always had his fairshare of goofball moments throughout the series, but it's dialled to the extreme in Super. It actually reminds me of the Simpsons where Homer Simpson's idiocy has reached a ridiculous level in the most recent seasons; to the point of obnoxiousness and it being unfunny (in my opinion, of course).

I'd grown so used to Goku's DBS character, that I was actually blown away by how much of a leader he comes across as in The Final Chapters. He shows initiative and actually seems to have a few braincells (albeit, making a fair few mistakes in typical Goku fashion).

[Lord Beerus]

If he can't count up to 10 in Super, than this is just a flanderization of his character. He was able to count and do math as a child, and have more functional abilities as he continues to age, such as raising a family in his off-period from fighting. Yet, now he cannot count or know what kissing is... purely a plothole and flanderization of his traits of being naive and ignorant to some societal norms. In Z, Goku is never really shown to misunderstand situations anymore unlike his child version of himself.

It is a plothole because in the 21st TB interview alongside Krillin he directly says that he's corrected his age because Launch told him which order the numbers are (11 and 13, I believe), both of which are of course after ten. Not to mention he could always get 70% of the way before that considering he has no trouble knowing how much seven (as in, seven Dragon Balls) is.

Exactly. Hence, his character in Super is flanderized.

In Super, Goku has shown to able to work and trade very well as a vegetable farmer, and the test prior to the Universe 6/7 tournament shows that he has, at the very least, an average level of intelligence in basic subject like maths considering he passed it. And the two part episode with Krillin in the Forest of Fear shows he has a grasp on metal and physiological aspects as he figured out how to defeat the mirages of the villains by clearing and calming his mind.

However, I do agree that naivety and hunger for battle were exaggerated on some occasions in Super. But I wouldn't say he's gotten dumber.

And I have to ask where this whole "Goku can't count to 10" business even originated from. Because I can't recall where that is implied.

[Lord Frieza]

I think that Goku suffers from that is the oppasite of say Superman or Batman.

Those are characters who as I like to think of it, have a lot on their mind. Superman spends forever worrying about the world, worrying about not doing harm and is a god wanting to be human deep down. Batman is someone driven to insanity by a traumatic even, has forsaken normality for justice and who greatest enemy is the only person who deep down truly understand him and his pain. Goku is totally different. If can describe how I see it, those super heroes minds a like an iceberg, theirs a lot hidden under the surface with more to learn the deeper you go. Goku's mind is like a open plain, it's not that he lacks character or intellect but everything in his head is on an even footing. He's caring but can equally be selfish, he can get made but dose not hold grudges, he intelligent but the majority of that is dedicated to his one passion. The Goku you'd meet in person is the same Goku you'd meet if you went inside his head.

The problem as I see it is that because Goku's character is very, this is not the right word but lets say "Simple", its very easy to mess up his character if you push him to even a bit to much one way or another. Personally I think Goku's true character, at it's best, was portrayed from the beginning of the manga through to the saiyan arc. Here Goku's character is at it's most balanced. Pretty much everything else is were you'll see issues. In the anime Goku is made, in small ways, more heroic that he actually is. In the manga, Goku during the middle of the Frieza arc are is like his old self but some aspects can seem a bit off. However from the later part of that arc there many times that he is made more "saiyan" and certain negative aspects of his character got pushed harder. GT Goku is Hero Goku while Super Goku is best described as Poisonous Goku, this is not to say it's all out bad but that negative aspects of his character are as exaggerated as his heroic GT counterparts good ones are.

Going onto a different aspect to all this this is why a true "Evil Goku" could never come to pass in any believable way. Yes you could have say, him becoming Kakarot again and being an evil saiyan but he would not be Goku, see Turles. Also possession/body swapping/mind control dose not truly count either as it's some a##hole doing bad things in his body, not Goku himself. Goku simple lacks character traits that would allow him to turn evil.

[ricky84]

The problem, in my opinion. Isn't the fandom. Its that Goku has literally been around for decades and people don't know how to properly categorize him as a character. They tend to make him too simplistic and talk in terms of absolutes. Goku is .... so ..... etc.

The fact is when we see Goku, he is an intelligent, yet naive individual. Good-natured and Good hearted enough to continue to ride the Nimbus, thus the idea of there being "poison" wouldn't jive with a major plot point of his ability to ride the Nimbus. But the consistency problems don't end there.

In Z, we see one of the first acts is for Goku to run the entirety of Snake way, he has an immediate understanding of what it means to run 1 million Km or miles depending on the translation. We also see in the Buu saga he is able to tell time at the World Martial Arts tournament and even performs mental math to determine how much time he has in minutes until the fighting begins.
Yet we zoom over to Super and in the very first episode he is portrayed as a bumbling idiot only caring about training such that he ruins his crops, has Goten nearly crash his tractor, and then can't seem to understand the difference between 100,000 and 1 million zenny are the very end. This also ignores his seeming issue with having trouble conceptualizing grade school numbers 5-6 when they are getting the Saiyans to perform the SSG ceremony.

These are just some quick examples of why the fandom is constantly at war. Because we have a complex character between portrayed in many ways which seem at odds with one another and previous characterization.

Please. DB(Z) Goku was dumb enough not to know the difference between boys and girls (which is an intuitive thing that doesn't need to be taught), thought marriage was a type of food, was constantly being fooled and scammed by strangers, made blatantly dumb decisions like letting dangerous villains live just so he can fight them again, not killing Dr. Gero before he creates the Androids, giving Cell a senzu bean, not killing Fat Buu when he could, etc. Seriously, Goku has always been consistently portrayed as stupid outside of combat. Just where do you think Team4Star got their jokes and portrayal of Goku from? It aint from Super, but the original series itself. The idea of him being more intelligent in the original manga/DBZ is pure nostalgic nonsense:

"Goku fights bad guys, he trains more, he fights increasingly evil bad guys, and eventually he grows up and turns from a little tiny dumb kid to a normal-sized, slightly less dumb adult." - Jason Thompson, House of 1000 Manga https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/house- ... 2011-03-10

And the idea of him being smarter in the DBS manga is ridiculous lmao. In the DBS manga can't even tell the difference between being pregnant and fat and doesn't even show any tactical smarts in combat like he does in the anime. Just compare any Goku vs Hit fight in the anime to their only fight in the manga to see what I mean.