Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
GreatSaiyaJeff
Regular
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:53 pm

Personally, with how the Buu arc starts, it is Gohan who is now the lead. Goku passes it on to him. When Goku comes back at the end of the arc and defeats Buu, it's fine. However Gohan is shoved into the background. I think that's what bugs people. DBZ is about Goku and Gohan, but then when it comes to GT and Super, Gohan is treated more like a minor character. While that has happened to others like Tien or Yamcha, Gohan seems like he had a bigger impact that he should seem to be more relavent. Gohan doesn't even need to be a fighter, he can have a role like Bulma who uses her knowledge to help the crew. The staff just seems like they don't know what to do with him. Hopefully after the TOP, they can get a better idea what they can do with him.
"I just realized something. Honestly... it kinda doesn't matter where I go... whether I'm alive or dead... I'm still pretty dandy." - Space Dandy

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zDBZ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:50 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:To get this back on track and away from this Vegeta discourse, Dragon Ball as a series is designed with Goku in mind as the lead. He’s the only character who ties into all the series’ core theme— There’s always someone stronger, bettering yourself for the sake of bettering yourself, and passing the torch to/embracing the next generation— All these ideas are reflected in Goku’s character in major ways.

Son Goku IS Dragon Ball.
By this logic, following through on the idea of Goku moving on and leaving things to Gohan (and, by proxy, the next generation) would be more in keeping with the last theme.

I'd also argue that, as the series grows progressively darker after the Piccolo saga, the notion of bettering oneself for the sake of it is diminished, if not wholly forgotten; necessity becomes much more of a driving factor behind the training and power-ups the characters experience after that point, even as Goku still relishes the experience itself.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:46 pm

I don't see how you get from "it's darker" to "the theme of self-improvement gets pushed aside". Goku lets Vegeta go for the sake of fighting him again, and he lets Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs because he wants a good fight. That theme never goes away.

Perhaps the next generation was the last theme, but DB is more than the Buu arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:20 pm

ABED wrote:OhHiRenan is correct, though I don't know about the next generation taking over was a theme of DB as a whole. Perhaps when Goku's generation took over.
It was a theme in the 22nd Budokai, it's verified by Goku the following arc, it's reiterated by Roshi again in the 23rd Budokai, it's arguably present to some extent in the Saiyan and Namek arcs via Gohan's growth, it gets brought up again in the Cell arc through Trunks being the savior of his timeline and Gohan surpassing his father, and it's very clearly a major theme of the Boo arc, with the series ending with Goku passing the torch. And this obviously ignoring GT, where it's even more prevalent there as the series skips 100 years into the future.

I feel like you just tend to disregard it as a central theme of the series because you don't like the idea, but the idea doesn't necessarily need to be expanded upon. Z never bothered to show Oob's adventures, and had DB ended with Cell, you wouldn't have seen Gohan's life as a teenager and adult.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:39 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:OhHiRenan is correct, though I don't know about the next generation taking over was a theme of DB as a whole. Perhaps when Goku's generation took over.
It was a theme in the 22nd Budokai, it's verified by Goku the following arc, it's reiterated by Roshi again in the 23rd Budokai, it's arguably present to some extent in the Saiyan and Namek arcs via Gohan's growth, it gets brought up again in the Cell arc through Trunks and Gohan, and it's very clearly a major theme of the Boo arc, with the series ending with Goku passing the torch. And this obviously ignoring GT, where it's even more prevalent there.

I feel like you just tend to disregard it as a central theme of the series because you don't like the idea, but the idea doesn't necessarily need to be expanded upon.
I wouldn't consider it the theme of the Saiyan or Namek arcs at all. How? Gohan is a character who becomes prominent, but it's not about him taking over. By the Freeza arc, he's part of the group, but it's not setting him up to take over. It wasn't even a theme in the Saiyan arc. In the Cell arc, Trunks isn't being set up as part of the next generation taking over. It only becomes about the next generation when out of the blue, Gohan is taken from the periphery of that arc to the forefront. The times when it is about the next generation, it's explicit.

It's there in individual arcs, but it's not part of the overall arc, especially since by the 22nd TB, Goku and his generation have taken the torch.

One of my problems with the whole passing the torch is the passing part. Goku and his generation didn't ask for it, they took it. They wanted to fight. No one in Gohan's generation wanted to fight for the sake of it. It was either a means to an end, for fun, or to save the world. Gohan's one of the worst ideas to hand the baton to.

In the end, even if Toriyama did intend to make it about Gohan and his generation taking over from day one, I'm glad he didn't go through with it. It's a bad idea, not just in execution, but in theory as well. If you want to do it, do it at the very end. Skipping 100 years later doesn't make it a central theme. Goku's story was finally complete. It's a coda and if that's where you do it, fine. That's the time to do it.

Still, I don't see it as a core theme of DB. What a terrible thing to say "pass the torch." No, take it if you can.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:54 pm

ABED wrote:I wouldn't consider it the theme of the Saiyan or Namek arcs at all. How? Gohan is a character who becomes prominent, but it's not about him taking over. By the Freeza arc, he's part of the group, but it's not setting him up to take over. It wasn't even a theme in the Saiyan arc.

It's there in individual arcs, but it's not part of the overall arc, especially since by the 22nd TB, Goku and his generation have taken the torch.

One of my problems with the whole passing the torch is the passing part. Goku and his generation didn't ask for it, they took it. They wanted to fight. No one in Gohan's generation wanted to fight for the sake of it. It was either a means to an end, for fun, or to save the world.

In the end, even if Toriyama did intend to make it about Gohan and his generation taking over from day one, I'm glad he didn't go through with it. It's a bad idea, not just in execution, but in theory as well. If you want to do it, do it at the very end. Still, I don't see it as a core theme of DB. What a terrible thing to say "pass the torch." No, take it if you can.
Gohan is one of the few survivors of the Saiyan attack and he's a key player on Namek. His mixed heritage and potential keep being pointed as reasons as to why he's so powerful and will get even stronger in the future. The idea that the next generation is more powerful than the last is personified through him, regardless of whether or not he was being written at the time to take over; it's just an idea that's projected onto the future, and coincidentally it's a future we end up witnessing anyway in the Cell arc.

It's a clear part of the overall series if the 22nd tournament focuses on shifting generations, the following two arcs show this new generation in charge, and all the arcs after that are already building up the next one. The number of arcs where the theme isn't brought up in some way is lower than the number of arcs where it is.

Oob may have been pressured to accept it, but he clearly shares Goku's enthusiasm. Pan as well, from what we saw of her.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory, and I don't understand this hatred you have for the concept to the point you wouldn't even give it a chance. That's an awful thing to say, "it's a bad idea [...] in theory." A story can be written where the next generation organically picks up the torch just like Goku, Kuririn and Tenshinhan did before them. And even the idea of forcing the torch upon someone can be interesting, considering the character would have to be preoccupied in fulfilling expectations (even if they did like fighting to begin with), which could work for some good drama.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:07 pm

1 - If it's personified through him, Toriyama couldn't have picked a worse candidate. Gohan rarely if ever works for it. He's so passive.
2 - I know it's part of the 22nd TB. I've said so before, but a big difference is the narrative followed Goku in the central role. Gohan was an important character, but not the main one.
3 - I'm not a big fan of Uub. I'm okay with Pan, but that's the coda of DBZ and the manga.
4 - When has it worked out for the best? Goku was always the main character. We didn't follow someone else's story for years until Goku came along and took over the story. And they didn't pick up the torch. They surpassed the previous generation, and not just through attrition. They got stronger than any generation before them. Handing a story to another character after a long run never works well. The only way it would work is like in American comics where basically you go long enough that your previous generation of readers ages out, but they have the benefit of not being one continuous narrative. Goku has years of story and emotional attachment with the audience.

I don't know why you don't understand my point. It's never been done well that the story was as good or better for switching protagonists after a long run. After only seeing the lead switch with negative results, hopefully you see why I don't think it can be done. I've seen it happen too many times to be a coincidence.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:18 pm

ABED wrote:1 - If it's personified through him, Toriyama couldn't have picked a worse candidate. Gohan rarely if ever works for it. He's so passive.
2 - I know it's part of the 22nd TB. I've said so before, but a big difference is the narrative followed Goku in the central role. Gohan was an important character, but not the main one.
3 - I'm not a big fan of Uub. I'm okay with Pan, but that's the coda of DBZ and the manga.
4 - When has it worked out for the best? Goku was always the main character. We didn't follow someone else's story for years until Goku came along and took over the story. And they didn't pick up the torch. They surpassed the previous generation, and not just through attrition. They got stronger than any generation before them. Handing a story to another character after a long run never works well. The only way it would work is like in American comics where basically you go long enough that your previous generation of readers ages out, but they have the benefit of not being one continuous narrative. Goku has years of story and emotional attachment with the audience.
That doesn't matter. I didn't say Gohan was a well-written character or that his docile personality fit with the theme he was representing. I just said he personified the idea that the next generation is stronger than the last because of his power and role in the story, which is true.

You're not a big fan of Oob, like everyone else, because he's a blank slate.

The next generation taking over doesn't necessarily mean Goku has to take the backseat, I'm not sure why you're stuck on this idea. Personally, I wouldn't really care if he does, but there are plenty of stories you can write with a rejuvenated cast while including Goku in some way. While I think GT is bad and they executed it poorly, that's the idea they tried to go with.

It has worked out for a lot of series, I don't know why you keep saying it hasn't. Naruto, YuGiOh, Star Wars, Spiderman, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Metal Gear Solid, so on. Maybe, subjectively for you, these series ended up worse when they made the shift, but clearly some people liked the new protagonists. Japanese media is no stranger to these kinds of shifts. You say it wouldn't work out for Dragon Ball because we've been following the series for so long, and maybe you're right, but you're not forced to keep watching it if the series ever goes in that direction. Goku's story clearly ended 20 years ago, and it was a good story that ended well. And there's still more you can do with the character, I feel, but if the creativity isn't there, then let them try new things. Why do you care if some other characters take up the spotlight under the Dragon Ball brand when it changes nothing about Goku's journey?

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:24 pm

What are you saying then? Because Gohan personified the next generation taking over, Toriyama should go in that direction regardless of actual execution? The whole idea of a story is to be compelling. If the next generation isn't compelling, why would I want them to take over?

It's not the blank slate thing. I just don't care about Uub. I liked Pan from the jump (DBZ, not GT), and part of that is her cheery personality, and her familial connection.

I'm stuck on the idea because that's the point of this thread - Gohan taking over as the main character. For him to take over, Goku has to take a less prominent role.
It has worked out for a lot of series.
Such as?
Why do you care if some other characters take up the spotlight under the Dragon Ball brand when it changes nothing about Goku's journey?
Because DB IS Goku. DB was around so long, what is there left to say?
Naruto, YuGiOh, Star Wars, Spiderman, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Metal Gear Solid, so on
I haven't seen Naruto, but friends of mine that were fans find Boruto boring. Star Wars, gonna have to disagree with you there. The original trilogy's characters will always be the best. Miles Morales isn't NEARLY as interesting as Peter. Jojo - how many times must I say this? The story was set up from the start that it would follow different generations. That's inherent in the premise. Not the same thing. And video games don't count because they aren't about characters. They're about gameplay.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:40 pm

ABED wrote:What are you saying then? Because Gohan personified the next generation taking over, Toriyama should go in that direction regardless of actual execution?
I'm not saying Toriyama should have done anything. You said the next generation taking over was never a major theme of the overall series, and I said that it was there in the 22nd Budokai, it was in the background in every arc after and brought to the foreground with Cell and Boo. That's all.

I hate Gohan so I wouldn't want to see him as the main character.
I'm stuck on the idea because that's the point of this thread - Gohan taking over as the main character. For him to take over, Goku has to take a less prominent role.
Which could be done organically, with time and proper build-up. I don't think anyone is suggesting Goku should be dropped from one episode to the other.
Such as?
Read above.
Because DB IS Goku. DB was around so long, what is there left to say?
Dragon Ball was Goku when one man was writing it week-by-week alone at home, and even then you could argue if that was the case considering Toriyama himself said he was experimenting with Gohan as the MC, meaning the position of Goku as the protagonist wasn't as sacred to him as it is to some fans.

Dragon Ball now is more than Goku, it's a multi-million dollar franchise with dozens of writers coming up with ideas and potential stories and characters, with spin-offs and games already experimenting with stories where Goku isn't the central figure. It's a franchise that will go on for dozens of years into the future at this point. And unless you want it to become another Simpsons or Pokemon where the passage of time isn't a thing (something that has always been a key part of Dragon Ball) for the sake of keeping the old cast in the spotlight, a sin that has been rearing its ugly head throughout all of Super, then the characters, Goku included, will be getting older and older as more and more stories keep being told. Eventually Goku will be too old and his story will end, just like it ended 20 years ago.

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zDBZ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:46 pm

ABED wrote:I don't see how you get from "it's darker" to "the theme of self-improvement gets pushed aside". Goku lets Vegeta go for the sake of fighting him again, and he lets Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs because he wants a good fight. That theme never goes away.

Perhaps the next generation was the last theme, but DB is more than the Buu arc.
"The notion of bettering oneself for the sake of it is diminished, if not wholly forgotten."

Yes, Goku is excited to fight Vegeta, Freeza, and the Androids for its own sake. That isn't his only motive in those fights, and that isn't given equal weight to the idea that Goku and the others must fight and train to stop a grave threat to the world/Namek/galaxy. Earlier in the series, when the stakes were lower and the tone lighter, "bettering oneself for the sake of it" was stressed more as a theme and motivator, for much of the cast; as the stakes rose, it wasn't as prominent an idea.
ABED wrote:
It has worked out for a lot of series.
Such as?
You've been given two lists of series, and Doctor's was longer and better than mine. You don't have to like the concept to acknowledge it as a viable direction for a series.
Doctor. wrote:Gohan is one of the few survivors of the Saiyan attack and he's a key player on Namek. His mixed heritage and potential keep being pointed as reasons as to why he's so powerful and will get even stronger in the future. The idea that the next generation is more powerful than the last is personified through him, regardless of whether or not he was being written at the time to take over; it's just an idea that's projected onto the future, and coincidentally it's a future we end up witnessing anyway in the Cell arc.
I'll add to this that the Saiyan, Freeza, and Cell sagas are more ensemble stories than previous sagas were. Along with Gohan as the literal next generation personified being a major character, new members to the group rise to prominence as older ones fade into the background, and those older members who stay prominent see their roles change. There's no way Toriyama deliberately planned that to capitalize on a theme, but the effect is still that the idea of generational change occurs.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:54 pm

You said the next generation taking over was never a major theme of the overall series, and I said that it was there in the 22nd Budokai
Then maybe I wasn't clear. I said it has been a theme, but it has never been the or one of the themes of the overall series. It's not what the story is about. It's what individual arcs have been about.
you could argue if that was the case considering Toriyama himself said he was experimenting with Gohan as the MC, meaning the position of Goku as the protagonist wasn't as sacred to him as it is to some fans.
And yet he went back to Goku when he realized trying to switch to Gohan was a mistake.
Eventually Goku will be too old and his story will end, just like it ended 20 years ago.
I get your point, but changing the protagonist wouldn't breathe new life into the story. At some point every story needs to end. If the story can't remain creatively vibrant with Goku in the lead, there's every reason to believe it wouldn't remain so without him. If an artist is ever at the point where they think they need to change the lead of the story after years, then it's probably time to just end the whole story. If they want to spin off DB, then do so, but there's zero reason to keep DB going without Goku as the lead
You've been given two lists of series, and Doctor's was longer and better than mine. You don't have to like the concept to acknowledge it as a viable direction for a series.
Not a good one. You both named Jojo, but that doesn't count at all. They changed leads for the first time after a few months. Completely different situation. It's an anthology series, akin to Fargo, Super Sentai, or Power Rangers. You named A Song of Fire and Ice, but that doesn't switch leads. It's an ensemble story. Maybe you guys like the stories with new leads as much or more, but I don't. I've never seen it done well. I don't care for Miles Morales or Rey and Finn. Even if I did, I don't like them more than Peter or Han, Luke, and Leia.
it wasn't as prominent an idea.
It's always still there. And since when does Goku having multiple motives matter? It's always been a fundamental aspect of Goku's personality. Goku puts equal importance on winning the tournament, if not more so, than saving the world. Goku lets Vegeta go because he wants a better fight. He lets Dr. Gero finish the cyborgs because he wants a better fight. Yes, the stakes were high, but they didn't have to be. It's not just Goku. Vegeta constantly lets bad things happen for the sake of a fight. Hell, Goku lets Freeza reach his full power so he could have a better fight. It's a theme that's ALWAYS present.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:16 pm

ABED wrote:I haven't seen Naruto, but friends of mine that were fans find Boruto boring. Star Wars, gonna have to disagree with you there. The original trilogy's characters will always be the best.
That doesn't really matter, though. While I agree that Boruto is boring and modern Star Wars sucks, the fact of the matter is that they will keep going on regardless with this brand new cast. It's making money, via old fans and new ones. The quality of the product may be debatable but there are still some interesting ideas being brought up as a result of the cast change and in the hands of competent writers they would be properly explored.
Miles Morales isn't NEARLY as interesting as Peter.
That's not the point, though. I said Spiderman, but most superheroes have had examples of someone else using the costume outside of the original. While Miles is an unfortunate example of a Spidey lacking a well-written comic, there are other Spidermen that do, such as Ben, the Scarlet Spider. Or for other superheroes, see Batman Beyond.
Jojo - how many times must I say this? The story was set up from the start that it would follow different generations. That's inherent in the premise. Not the same thing.
Part 1 of Jojo is about 50 chapters long. That's a sizable amount, and quite a bit of time to get to know the characters. By chapter 50, Goku had lost the Tenkaichi Budokai. I'm sure you had grown attached to the character by then. Point is that just because switching protagonists now is the Jojo gimmick doesn't mean it was the case when it first tried it out. It just did it 50 chapters in instead of 500 and it happened to work out.
video games don't count because they aren't about characters. They're about gameplay.
You would be right if Metal Gear Solid didn't focus heavily on its story, much more than your average videogame. After following Solid Snake's story for 3 games and playing with him for the first mission of the 4th game, you change protagonist. While the change was controversial at the time, fans have warmed up to it and consider the game one of the best in the series for trying something new with its story. If that wasn't enough, the game after that is widely considered the best and it's yet another protagonist shift, and the game after that returns us to Solid Snake in his old age and is considered a disappointment.
It's what individual arcs have been about.
Two consecutive arcs, and both of them are the last in the series. It's not self-contained.
And yet he went back to Goku when he realized trying to switch to Gohan was a mistake.
Yes, switching to GOHAN was a mistake, not switching protagonists. Evidently he still believed in the whole pass the torch shtick considering he ended the series how he did and then even improved and retouched the ending on the Kanzenban release to hammer the point in even more.
If an artist is ever at the point where they think they need to change the lead of the story after years, then it's probably time to just end the whole story.
I don't know, I think the Boo arc is pretty good even though it tried changing its lead until the very end.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:23 pm

But the ending wasn't about passing the torch to Uub. It was about Goku being excited that he would have someone strong to fight. The ending is still VERY much centered around Goku's journey.
That doesn't really matter, though
So are we now changing the argument to financial success? I wouldn't argue that series can remain profitable after changing the lead, but even then that's up for debate. Regardless, I was only ever arguing about the quality. Ben Riley? The clone saga was god awful. I have seen Batman Beyond and Terry is not that interesting. The best part of that series is clearly Bruce.
Part 1 of Jojo is about 50 chapters long.
From what I've read, it lasted less than a year. Someone on this thread agreed. 50 chapters or not, it's still not years and years before the switch was made. It's still setting up the premise. I was connected to DB's characters well before the first TB. That's not the point. DB wasn't set up as an anthology series. When you make the switch absolutely matters. It's not merely when you connect with the characters because if the writer does their job right, that happens very quickly.

I've played more than enough video games to know, it's always about game play. This is a controversial point apparently, which I don't get. The character is you. You dictate the actions of the character. Your analysis comes off as rather reductive. Even though I've never played the game, if there's a disappointing entry, there are so many factors that go into making a game interesting that a change in the main character alone couldn't possibly THE reason for decline in quality.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
8000 Saiyan
I Live Here
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:43 pm

I don't think so. The end would have been rather anti-climatic.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:50 pm

Two consecutive arcs, and both of them are the last in the series. It's not self-contained.
Not for the better in either the Cell arc or the Buu arc. The most interesting parts of the Buu arc are when Goku returns through him going back to the afterlife and when he returns through Buu's defeat. The least interesting stuff is Gotenks and Gohan. I've never been a big fan of the Great Saiyaman material. Boy does that middle part of the arc sag. Partly it's because of who the torch is past to, but changing leads that deep into the story just doesn't make any ending as resonant as if we follow the same character from the beginning of their journey to the end. Goku left Mt. Paoz because there was a whole world to see full of possibilities and strong people to fight and learn from. Ending with him excited about there being more hills to climb is a far better full circle ending.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
ulisa
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:43 am

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ulisa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:39 pm

Granted, I'm a Gohan fan and I still don't necessarily agree with the angle the series took him after the Cell Games but in general, I always thought Goku eventually passing the torch made sense. Heck, when I first saw Dragonball, that was the impression I got as early as the Namek saga. We're seeing his son grow stronger and wiser and then by the time the Android saga hits, Goku is even telling him that he wants Gohan to surpass him. It sure seemed to me like they were building up the idea only to drop it in the Buu saga. I don't think the idea is a bad one; I think it was executed poorly. If they didn't want to utilize Gohan, I could see Pan working out just fine as well.

I won't argue that switching protagonists in a series is difficult to get right. It is hard to get right and you probably will lose some fans over it. That doesn't mean it can't be done though. Personally, I thought the original Flash comics did that exceptionally well---Jay Garrick starts out as the Flash, is replaced by Barry Allen who serves as the Flash from 1956 to 1986, after which his sidekick Wally West becomes the Flash for the next 18 or so years. They tried a few replacements that didn't work but ultimately Wally West as the Flash did work for a large amount of fans. Enough so that even in different universe versions, fans ask for a version of him. So, I don't think it necessarily can't be done, it just has to be done carefully.

Though, there are always going to be people that just plain don't like a switch up and that's their prerogative. I wouldn't mind seeing them try it.
We truly begin to live when we find something we're willing to die for

ClutchBangstrip
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Middle America

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:23 pm

Gohan could've been the main character n I wouldn't have mind, but I don't think he should've been the main character. I respect the powers that be n their creative direction. As long as Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball, Idc who the main character is. Jus continue the awesome battles n boy did the Buu saga have a crap ton of'em. From Goku v Vegeta II, all the way to the epic last stand where all the survivors jus laid everything on the table.

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zDBZ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:55 pm

ulisa wrote:Granted, I'm a Gohan fan and I still don't necessarily agree with the angle the series took him after the Cell Games but in general, I always thought Goku eventually passing the torch made sense. Heck, when I first saw Dragonball, that was the impression I got as early as the Namek saga. We're seeing his son grow stronger and wiser and then by the time the Android saga hits, Goku is even telling him that he wants Gohan to surpass him. It sure seemed to me like they were building up the idea only to drop it in the Buu saga. I don't think the idea is a bad one; I think it was executed poorly. If they didn't want to utilize Gohan, I could see Pan working out just fine as well.

I won't argue that switching protagonists in a series is difficult to get right. It is hard to get right and you probably will lose some fans over it. That doesn't mean it can't be done though. Personally, I thought the original Flash comics did that exceptionally well---Jay Garrick starts out as the Flash, is replaced by Barry Allen who serves as the Flash from 1956 to 1986, after which his sidekick Wally West becomes the Flash for the next 18 or so years. They tried a few replacements that didn't work but ultimately Wally West as the Flash did work for a large amount of fans. Enough so that even in different universe versions, fans ask for a version of him. So, I don't think it necessarily can't be done, it just has to be done carefully.

Though, there are always going to be people that just plain don't like a switch up and that's their prerogative. I wouldn't mind seeing them try it.
I would be genuinely curious to know what angle you would've preferred Toriyama take with Gohan after the Cell Games.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:16 am

The only time it does "work" to change main characters after an extended run is by keeping it going until the readership changes. There was a whole generation that grew up with Barry Allen or Hal Jordan as their incarnations of the characters and never knew or read any of the old stories. I don't want DB to be like mainstream American comics.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply