Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ulisa » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:41 pm

zDBZ wrote: Iwould be genuinely curious to know what angle you would've preferred Toriyama take with Gohan after the Cell Games.
Since you asked....

Honestly, I think the way Gohan is presented in Movie 9 is one of my favorites. He’s shown still having an interest in martial arts; ChiChi is accepting of it and mentions it as good exercise that gets him out of the house and his books. He’s obviously been training enough to still be at the top of his game. You can tell that if it’s outside of a battle and in spar or tournament form that he genuinely enjoys it. He’s got confidence in himself. There’s still some reluctance to enter into his “true” power, likely due to the tragedy that happened last time, but he’ll do it with some encouragement. He takes steps to protect people which I think really falls in place with his development in the Cell Saga where his trigger for even becoming Super Saiyan was not being able to protect people he cared about and hating himself for it. For him to feel so passionate about that to trigger Super Saiyan, I don’t see him suddenly dropping working at being a protector, especially since he has seen first hand what can happen.

Buu Saga Gohan disappointed me because he seemed to disregard ALL his Saiyan traits. One thing I’ve never really liked is how the Half Saiyans are written later on in the story. They’re either all Saiyan or all Earthling (and that’s not really done well either as there are earthlings who strive to improve as well) when I think a mix is a lot more interesting. For Gohan, I like the fact that he’s intelligent, likes to learn and would like to try and figure out a way around a conflict without violence. However, I also like the fact that if he’s pushed to it, he’s going to make you regret it. I like the idea he still has a Saiyan drive just not triggered by or to the same extent as his father’s. Gohan isn’t going to fight enemies because he wants a good fight but he will to protect people. They reference this quite a few times. Heck, Super even has Gohan reference his Saiyan blood is excited by a battle and that’s really what I wanted to see: a Gohan that is more a balanced mix of Saiyan and Earthling traits instead of just one or the other. Up until the Android saga, they’d been balancing those traits pretty well but after the 7 year skip, it felt like it was tossed aside. I’d love to see Gohan striving for peace and yet still feeling that call to a battle that he has to figure out how to placate.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zDBZ » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:34 pm

ulisa wrote:
zDBZ wrote: Iwould be genuinely curious to know what angle you would've preferred Toriyama take with Gohan after the Cell Games.
Since you asked....

Honestly, I think the way Gohan is presented in Movie 9 is one of my favorites. He’s shown still having an interest in martial arts; ChiChi is accepting of it and mentions it as good exercise that gets him out of the house and his books. He’s obviously been training enough to still be at the top of his game. You can tell that if it’s outside of a battle and in spar or tournament form that he genuinely enjoys it. He’s got confidence in himself. There’s still some reluctance to enter into his “true” power, likely due to the tragedy that happened last time, but he’ll do it with some encouragement. He takes steps to protect people which I think really falls in place with his development in the Cell Saga where his trigger for even becoming Super Saiyan was not being able to protect people he cared about and hating himself for it. For him to feel so passionate about that to trigger Super Saiyan, I don’t see him suddenly dropping working at being a protector, especially since he has seen first hand what can happen.

Buu Saga Gohan disappointed me because he seemed to disregard ALL his Saiyan traits. One thing I’ve never really liked is how the Half Saiyans are written later on in the story. They’re either all Saiyan or all Earthling (and that’s not really done well either as there are earthlings who strive to improve as well) when I think a mix is a lot more interesting. For Gohan, I like the fact that he’s intelligent, likes to learn and would like to try and figure out a way around a conflict without violence. However, I also like the fact that if he’s pushed to it, he’s going to make you regret it. I like the idea he still has a Saiyan drive just not triggered by or to the same extent as his father’s. Gohan isn’t going to fight enemies because he wants a good fight but he will to protect people. They reference this quite a few times. Heck, Super even has Gohan reference his Saiyan blood is excited by a battle and that’s really what I wanted to see: a Gohan that is more a balanced mix of Saiyan and Earthling traits instead of just one or the other. Up until the Android saga, they’d been balancing those traits pretty well but after the 7 year skip, it felt like it was tossed aside. I’d love to see Gohan striving for peace and yet still feeling that call to a battle that he has to figure out how to placate.
Interesting. I do enjoy how childlike Gohan seems at the beginning of Movie 9, and how much fun he seems to be having in the front half of the tournament. And Toriyama ended up writing that Chi-Chi was changed by Goku's death to the point of personally teaching Goten martial arts, so that wouldn't be an illogical move. OTOH, and I think I've written this already in this thread, I like Gohan's lack of training, or more specifically the consequences that come from that in the Buu saga. And I also like the contrast between him and the full-blooded Saiyans in the cast. To me, his non-combative adventurous streak in the earlier movies, and his Great Saiyaman antics, are where the influence of his father, if not his race, come out.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:12 pm

Gohan is a good character, but his personality and characterization just doesn't work as a protagonist of a Shonen battle series.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 am

No. Gohan was always an under developed character who always left a lot to desire, the only time he was actually pretty fucking awesome was during the Cell era and then.. that was it. Goten is sort of even worse, now that I think about it (TOEI/Toriyama never allowed him to grow but rather always be a kid).

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:41 am

Uh, the Cell arc was Gohan pretty much at his worst. In the Saiyan arc, he went through a huge period of development, and in the Cell arc, he's either in the background, or he backtracks. Gohan is at his best and most proactive during the Freeza arc.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:48 am

ABED wrote:Uh, the Cell arc was Gohan pretty much at his worst. In the Saiyan arc, he went through a huge period of development, and in the Cell arc, he's either in the background, or he backtracks. Gohan is at his best and most proactive during the Freeza arc.
Well, that's obviously your opinion so don't try to pass that off as some kind of a "fact". For me, Gohan was at his best on the Cell era as he showed his true power to the limit and avenged those he loved.

Gohan wasn't a character well developed to be a fighter but a student.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:11 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:Well, that's obviously your opinion so don't try to pass that off as some kind of a "fact".
Forgive the quick off-topic tangent here, but this whole "you're presenting your opinion as fact" thing has long ago gotten REALLY tired now. Almost NO ONE here (certainly not among the hardcore regulars at least) seriously believes that their opinion is somehow an iron clad fact. That most people don't add the qualifier "IMO" at the end of every single statement doesn't somehow mean that they thus believe that what they think subjectively is inherently a cold hard fact: it simply means that no sane human being should be expected to have to ALWAYS CONSTANTLY make sure to tack on some variation of "but this is just my opinion of course" at some point during every single solitary utterance.

In other words, when someone says something that is CLEARLY subjective, then unless otherwise noted it should be taken as a given (through simple, self-evident context) that they're simply expressing an opinion and not "telling you what's what" or something.

I think it was Gaffer Tape who noted sometime awhile back (with 1000% accuracy) that when people seem to get overly hostile and sensitive about someone "stating an opinion as fact", what's often really going on psychologically is that they just don't like it whenever someone expresses an opinion (generally one that is contrary to their own: notice how just about no one EVER makes this complaint with regards to a subjective statement that they actually AGREE with) with a level of intensity or certitude that's but an octave above what they're personally comfortable with.

Some people, typically (but hardly exclusively) younger people without a whole lot of diverse social experience under their belts, tend to react with shocked hostility towards anyone who expresses viewpoints contradictory to their own with but a microscopic ounce of confidence. Its ALWAYS been incredibly weird, tiresome, and irritatingly immature, and it really, REALLY needs to be called out on directly more often and be put to bed once and for all.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:25 pm

What he said. This is the second time you've said this to me and third time I've seen you say it overall in as many days.

The reason I find Cell Games Gohan to tiresome is because he's constantly having his anger bring out his power, but that's only so interesting. We've seen it several times and he never gets control over it. It's not that interesting to see a character at the mercy of their own ability. One thing that made his arc when we first meet him was that he was at the mercy of his emotions and finally gained control over them. By the time we get to the Cell arc, how many times had his power been drawn out?
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:19 pm

ABED wrote:What he said. This is the second time you've said this to me and third time I've seen you say it overall in as many days.

The reason I find Cell Games Gohan to tiresome is because he's constantly having his anger bring out his power, but that's only so interesting. We've seen it several times and he never gets control over it. It's not that interesting to see a character at the mercy of their own ability. One thing that made his arc when we first meet him was that he was at the mercy of his emotions and finally gained control over them. By the time we get to the Cell arc, how many times had his power been drawn out?
When did he ever gain control over his emotions? He was still letting his anger take over all the way to Freeza.

Unless you mean the time where he controls himself while in Oozaru. That fits in thematically, but it's not really in the same category as his other emotional power-ups.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:04 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:What he said. This is the second time you've said this to me and third time I've seen you say it overall in as many days.

The reason I find Cell Games Gohan to tiresome is because he's constantly having his anger bring out his power, but that's only so interesting. We've seen it several times and he never gets control over it. It's not that interesting to see a character at the mercy of their own ability. One thing that made his arc when we first meet him was that he was at the mercy of his emotions and finally gained control over them. By the time we get to the Cell arc, how many times had his power been drawn out?
When did he ever gain control over his emotions? He was still letting his anger take over all the way to Freeza.

Unless you mean the time where he controls himself while in Oozaru. That fits in thematically, but it's not really in the same category as his other emotional power-ups.
That's not letting anger take over. That's justified anger. He never lost control to the point where he was at its mercy or when he experienced retrograde amnesia of his short term memory.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:05 pm

ABED wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:What he said. This is the second time you've said this to me and third time I've seen you say it overall in as many days.

The reason I find Cell Games Gohan to tiresome is because he's constantly having his anger bring out his power, but that's only so interesting. We've seen it several times and he never gets control over it. It's not that interesting to see a character at the mercy of their own ability. One thing that made his arc when we first meet him was that he was at the mercy of his emotions and finally gained control over them. By the time we get to the Cell arc, how many times had his power been drawn out?
When did he ever gain control over his emotions? He was still letting his anger take over all the way to Freeza.

Unless you mean the time where he controls himself while in Oozaru. That fits in thematically, but it's not really in the same category as his other emotional power-ups.
That's not letting anger take over. That's justified anger. He never lost control to the point where he was at its mercy or when he experienced retrograde amnesia of his short term memory.
I agree the concept was not handled well in the way it was presented during the Cell Games, but Gohan was still clearly being controlled by his anger during all those occasions; he was just lucky it never bit him in the ass.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:09 pm

He wasn't being controlled by his anger during those battles. He's angry but he never loses consciousness or acts out of bloodlust.

Before we lose the forest from the trees, I'm drawing a distinction between those scenarios and when characters fight in a rage like when Goku loses it against Tao Pai Pai
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by zDBZ » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:What he said. This is the second time you've said this to me and third time I've seen you say it overall in as many days.

The reason I find Cell Games Gohan to tiresome is because he's constantly having his anger bring out his power, but that's only so interesting. We've seen it several times and he never gets control over it. It's not that interesting to see a character at the mercy of their own ability. One thing that made his arc when we first meet him was that he was at the mercy of his emotions and finally gained control over them. By the time we get to the Cell arc, how many times had his power been drawn out?
When did he ever gain control over his emotions? He was still letting his anger take over all the way to Freeza.

Unless you mean the time where he controls himself while in Oozaru. That fits in thematically, but it's not really in the same category as his other emotional power-ups.
FWIW, I do find Gohan's anger to have a coherent through-line up to the Cell Games, though that's almost certainly fortuitous circumstance than careful planning.

All of Gohan's outbursts, from Raditz's arrival to his confrontations with Freeza, are spontaneous. Gohan doesn't tap his anger voluntarily, and his enemies don't deliberately provoke it. It's only in preparing for the fight against Cell that Gohan's rage bursts are deliberately tapped, via Goku's plan. And when Gohan realizes what that plan is, he doesn't want to go along with it, because he's aware that when he snaps, he loses control. And that fear of losing control ends up at least partially justified, when the SSJ2 state brings out some of the worst Saiyan traits in Gohan. His anger was key to tapping the limits of his power (at that age, at least), but it comes with a downside, and it isn't what ends up saving them all.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:47 pm

I don't care if a writer creates something through meticulous planning or by the seat of their pants. That's not my issue. It's that Gohan's character "arc" in the Cell Games is so sloppy and doesn't involve him getting control. He's completely at the whim of his power and emotions. Contrast that with the Saiyan arc where he does gain control and it's when he does that he becomes useful. It's far more interesting, especially from what is supposed to be a main character.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:01 am

I'd like to see him stick around as a prominent deuteragonist more often than he does ala Vegeta in Super, but I don't think he suits the role of protagonist. He's too reactionary, even in the Cell saga which was meant to be where the shift to protagonist took place. Goku is always training and seeking out new challenges, Gohan won't fight unless a threat comes to him. That's an interesting trait that makes him stand out from many of the other characters, but it doesn't help drive the plot.

That said, I'm not a fan of the all-or-nothing approach to whether he should be a fighter or not. There's no reason he can't strive for self-improvement while looking after a career and a family. Actual human beings in the real world have to find that balance, it makes him relatable.

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Green_Goblin » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:18 am

Not necroposting, was blocked since September 15th... Gohan's high intellegence is something I relate to more as a person/audience than Goku's "I want to fight stronger people" attitude, that's it. I was glad that one of the very few good things IMHO that the Tournament of Power did was give Gohan his scenes to shine (all of his eliminations included some kind of brain using and team work, just that his elimination of Botamo was weird - if he'd managed to get him off the ground using a different and more logical method I'd be completely happy with the end result despite the forced "giving Android 17 to play the MVP" shtick they went with all along this arc).

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:19 am

Ultimately, when it comes down to it, I've always seen Goku as the main character of Dragon Ball, though Gohan definitely had that handed over to him in the Cell arc... Really, the Cell arc was very much Gohan's story, and the Saiyan and Freeza arcs did build up to that, and Gohan was most definitely the main character of a good portion of the Boo storyline, but he was kind of screwed over in Toriyama's effort to bring things to a satisfying close in that last storyline.

I think Gohan's story would have been more satisfying if he'd had more agency in the Boo arc in regards to his defeat at Super Boo's hands, or if he'd had more of an impact on the final confrontation. Might have cluttered it up a bit, but it could've been fun to see him fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta in the final battle against Boo, and honestly that whole affair was already a bit of a cluttered mess anyway, so throwing an extra character who deserved some more closure and a more satisfying ending to his arc in that storyline would have probably been to its benefit.
Perhaps the thing to do would have been to have Gohan recover once Goku and Vegeta broke him out of Boo's body, and have a couple of little moments with him realising he's made that same mistake he made in the Cell arc, and just like then he had to be bailed out by Goku, go into that a bit before the final confrontation. The confrontation itself would ultimately still be Vegeta's character moment, but before that happens, and probably afterwards, we could have had some moments from Gohan that would have made it feel less like a total snub, and more like a natural part of his character arc.

So... I suppose yes, he should have been more of a main character in the Boo arc, but aside from that -- and with it in mind that, despite my love of it, I do have a lot of criticisms with how the Boo arc went in general, so it's not like this was the one magic thing that would have made it perfect -- I'm honestly pretty happy with what we got.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:13 pm

after comparing the great fight of goku vs kefla (funny, the opponents had chemistry for their personalities of loving the fights and having confrontation between natural talent vs arduous training) with the terrible fight of gohan vs kefla (forced, without any chemistry and with rather disappointing personalities
I can answer that question ...
NO
... but
in retrospect, it is easier to understand the author's decision to continue with goku as the protagonist
1.- It is more difficult to continue a story of fight shonen if your protagonist does not like to fight
2.- Goku has more facility to make friends and rivals because he is more charismatic and has a lot of love for fights
on the contrary gohan started being an antisocial child and very overprotected by his mother, his first friend was piccolo but it was more because of the situation that forced them to be together the other friends he did on his own at school were not warriors.
3.-gohan is considered more a human than saiyan who seeks a peaceful life so only seek to defeat the villain without enjoying the fight which would take much fun to the matter regarding the fight there is no chemistry between opponents
4.- Even future gohan did not want to have the life of a warrior, he just wanted to have the life of a normal human being, which if he achieved the gohan of the present
DBZAOTA482 wrote:I mean even GT did a better job handling his character (he still trains according to the GT Perfect Files).
that is false on many levels
gohan (super) had more participation in fights than the GT in addition to having more victories
gohan (super) became stronger than gt

GT Perfect Files does not change anything .. the subject could not defeat goten

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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:22 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Really, the Cell arc was very much Gohan's story, and the Saiyan and Freeza arcs did build up to that
How was the Cell arc Gohan's story? Gohan is on the periphery for most of it and it never feels like it's purposefully doing so for the payoff at the end. Gohan's character arc is complete in the Saiyan arc. It doesn't feel like the first step towards him taking the spotlight.
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Re: Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:26 pm

My opinion is this:

If Toriyama went out of his way to build his character from the very beginning and lead to a point where Goku essentially passed the torch to him and the manga chapter is labelled "The Successor", then yes he should've been the main character no question.

You don't write all this shit to cockblock the readers later and their investment into your story. He shouldn't never wrote Gohan doing all these things and kept the focus on Goku if he didn't want to make him the main character.

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