Do you still think Gohan should've been the main character?

[zDBZ]

I don't know what MistareFusion's thoughts on Buu are going to end up being, but I'll borrow from one of his Cell saga videos - good storytelling and character development > Wuxia conventions. And I cannot understand the logic that a character who's reluctant to fight can't be the main character of a fighting-based series. That whole premise sets up a lot of potential for conflict, dramatic and comedic. And whenever Toriyama did something with that - in the Saiyan, Cell, and first two-thirds of the Buu saga - the results were good, in turns funny and harrowing for Gohan and for the other characters depending on him, and there were variations in how Toriyama wrote that sort of material. Did it always make for the most exciting and dynamic action sequences? Maybe not, but it made for good story, and what action there was in relation to that story was better for it.

True, I worded that poorly. It's not that you can't a reluctant hero type, it's just that... Gohan's not a compelling example of one. What Gohan lacks that a lot of other Dragon Ball characters have for me is charisma, and that matters a lot. In fact, I would argue that the charisma present in so much of the cast is what allows them to get invested in characters who really aren't that deep when you start breaking them down and what allows them to like a lot of the cast in-spite of their... frequently questionable moral actions.

Fair enough. To me, though, Gohan is charming and endearing. He doesn't have those traits of Piccolo's or Krillin's that you mentioned, true; what he does have is a polite, shy, gentle disposition and a scholarly mind, with something of an adventurous streak even if he doesn't enjoy combat. That's a very charismatic character IMO, and one with a lot of potential as a series lead.

Clearly. But while it made something of a difference, it didn't solve their problems. That's one big qualification for a deus ex machina. The earrings aren't a big cheat because it is only another means of reaching the same end. If they had won using them, I would agree, but they didn't. It doesn't bug me because of the fusion. Toriyama could've easily written that Vegeta knew the dance by watching in the afterlife. I buy that Vegeta's a quick study. Where the convenience comes in is that what was supposed to be permanent ends up being temporary for unexplained reasons. I'm of course not counting Super's explanation. Taking away that downside without a good explanation makes it all feel too easy.

It's not arbitrary. Everyone is out of options. Until then, there was Gohan, now it was only Goku. Did it come at the expense of those story threads? Maybe, but it was sure as hell far better than them taking over. Vegeta coming there last minute is irrelevant. And you only seem to be considering the story threads of the final arc and not DB as a whole.

In this case it would be as the story was never about the next generation. It was one person's story and his journey to reach greater heights.

I think people care WAY more about the idea of the next generation taking over than the execution because I can't think of a single story where it was ever for the better after a long run with the same main character(s) to have others take over. It's about what I call "emotional equity". Granted, Gohan's been around a while, but DB doesn't reflect him, and Goten & Chibi Trunks were just introduced. Why make them the focal point? If it happens, let it be the coda, not a protracted (not to mention boring) arc.

The earrings solve the immediate story problem in an arbitrary manner. That fits the definition to me. And I don't object to fusion being used at that moment either; I object to the method and the characters involved.

Dragon Ball doesn't tell one unified story either. It's a serialized narrative, with an internal continuity, and each arch follows from and sometimes builds directly off of what came before it. But this ain't Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire. The first hunt for the dragon balls is a self-contained narrative. While the first Budokai arc grows out of pieces of that story, it's very much its own narrative too. And so on, and so on. The Buu saga is connected to the past arcs and builds on some of them in certain areas, but it's its own story as well, and with a fair amount of time distance from the previous events. And while Goku, again, may have still been the hero up until the Cell saga, the story trended toward a more ensemble approach with its cast - arguably first in the King Piccolo saga, but definitely in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas.

[ABED]

Your objection to the characters involved doesn't hold water. Vegeta gets a temporary reprieve at the last minute because it was only at that point that they were out of options and the entire universe was on the line.

It's not one single story in the sense you state (nor did I remotely imply), but it is definitely the adventures of its main character. You're splitting hairs. That in no way changes the fact that it's from beginning to end about Goku and his growth as a warrior. The other stories revolve around him. The Buu arc not building off directly from events doesn't make it self contained. It's still part of the greater story of DB and changing the main character at 11th hour is ill advised. No matter how much you want to argue that the Buu arc is self contained, it's not. It's still part of the greater story of Son Goku. The way the Buu arc plays out in large part because of the characters journeys to that point and the decisions they make as a result. They aren't hermetically sealed stories.

What is it about Gohan that you like as the main character? What concretes can you say work for the betterment of DB as a whole and not just the Buu arc?

Why is DB better for making Gohan its main character after a decade? I would rather have Toriyama always planned Goku taking the spot again, but if he had gone with his initial plan, it wouldn't have been for the better. Perhaps a more coherent story arc, but not a great ending for DB. It's a sloppy course correction, but a correction nonetheless.

That's a very charismatic character IMO, and one with a lot of potential as a series lead.

Maybe, but not Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is a series that doesn't take itself overly serious. It's quirky and goofy. That's not Gohan. He's a good supporting character.

[KBABZ]

To be clear for zDBZ, Deus Ex Machina mans The Hand of God, where the characters are in an inescapable situation to the point where the writer is put in a corner, and so a completely hitherto unexplained solution comes out of nowhere and rescues our heroes, almost certainly defeating the threat to begin with.

ABED is correct in that the Potarra Earrings are NOT a Deus Ex Machina, because they do not solve their current situation and do not defeat the bad guy, despite how effective they are with Goku and Vegeta. The resulting Vegetto fusion is of course incredibly powerful and in all likelihood would have defeated Super Buu, but Toriyama goes out of his way to defuse them soon after and remove the earrings to help make the finale have more tension. Instead, to me it's classic Toriyama "write it by ear" style writing and is typical of how he approaches these things.

They're introduced using some pretty well-considered backstory with Old Kai that explains why he looks like a pair of testes, and it starts to hype up a new fusion (Goku + Somebody else) just at its core idea, much like the Fusion Dance did. Vegeta is then returned from the afterlife mainly so that he can be in the same location as Goku will be so that they can fuse on the battlefield and produce the "ultimate" character to fight the bad guy. However this character is immensely powerful to the point where the whole thing is a game, which doesn't have a lot of tension for a finale, so he's written to instead be toying around as a bid to play for time so Buu can attempt to absorb him, under the very good logic that Vegetto wants to save his absorbed friends first. Vegetto of course defuses when going inside to remove this story-breaker character, and later Goku and Vegeta destroy the earrings so that Vegetto cannot show up again so the final battle isn't a tensionless cakewalk. Toriyama uses the previously-introduced Saiyan Pride as the reasoning, but to me at least it's always come off as just an excuse to get them to destroy the earrings.

This isn't something Toriyama's exactly unknown for doing because he has a history of doing it. Frieza powering up to 100% was a way to put a bit of tension back into the fight with Super Saiyan Goku. Perfect Cell coming back with a Zenkai boost after Goku defeated him the first time has always come off as Toriyama having his cake and eating it too after realizing the first instance was rather anti-climactic. Not to mention all the other more minor instances where characters have pulled out the "oh but I was just toying around" excuse or Zarbon being like "Haha, you've forced me to transform!". Even Frieza's transformation to his fourth form feels quite rushed with arbitrary reasoning ("I'm going to grant you the horror of seeing it!"). But at no point does Vegetto actually save the day handily for everybody because Toriyama went out of his way to make sure that wouldn't happen.

[zDBZ]

Deus ex machina is defined as "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty." No, the earrings don't defeat Buutenks (or Buuhan). They are nevertheless a sudden, unexpected, and contrived solution to the apparently insurmountable challenge of a lack of a viable way to defeat Majin Buu at that moment in the story - and the challenge of making Goku relevant to the plot again and able to be a viable Buu opponent again. Old Kai's life swap has the same problem, and is the more egregious of the two IMO.

Your objection to the characters involved doesn't hold water. Vegeta gets a temporary reprieve at the last minute because it was only at that point that they were out of options and the entire universe was on the line.

It's not one single story in the sense you state (nor did I remotely imply), but it is definitely the adventures of its main character. You're splitting hairs. That in no way changes the fact that it's from beginning to end about Goku and his growth as a warrior. The other stories revolve around him. The Buu arc not building off directly from events doesn't make it self contained. It's still part of the greater story of DB and changing the main character at 11th hour is ill advised. No matter how much you want to argue that the Buu arc is self contained, it's not. It's still part of the greater story of Son Goku. The way the Buu arc plays out in large part because of the characters journeys to that point and the decisions they make as a result. They aren't hermetically sealed stories.

I didn't claim that the sagas were hermetically sealed; I explicitly acknowledged that they were tied together. But each has a beginning, middle, and end. They are their own stories, connected though they may be. And yes, Goku is the main character through most of them, and one of the only consistent themes of the series is that there's always another adventure and another, greater opponent out there. But not all the other sagas "revolve" around Goku, and I've already said, there was a trend toward an ensemble cast well before Buu, with the mantle being passed in the Cell saga, not the Buu saga. And I fundamentally reject the idea that changing protagonists was a bad thing; you're not going to sway me on that, and I'm not going to sway you either.

What is it about Gohan that you like as the main character? What concretes can you say work for the betterment of DB as a whole and not just the Buu arc?

I feel like I've talked about this in the thread, but to lay it all out in one place:

I like his personality. I like his reluctance to fight. I think his story in the back end of the Cell saga is fantastic, covering a wide range of emotions and offering some great spectacle too. His connections to Piccolo and Krillin, different to his father's, make for a good dynamic between primary and secondary characters. I like the "slice of life" episodes that open the Buu saga; Gohan in high school, being the big brother, playing superhero; I'd have gladly seen more of these moments. His relationship with Videl is my favorite "romance" in Dragon Ball (and another thing I'd have liked more of), and the way it acts as a catalyst for everyone's entry to the Budokai is nicely done. His story once Majin Buu becomes a threat is very good; I like that his lack of training over the years has consequences, both silly and serious, and the way it affects him going forward. I like his conduct after Old Kai's spell does its thing - asking for his father's gi, being aware that Buu's self-destruct was a feint, realizing Dende's still alive, etc. And I like that, though he is presented as the protagonist for much of the Buu saga, he isn't presented as the exclusive "the One Sure Thing" that will stop Buu; Goten and Trunks get significant development as well, and the saga, in following theirs and Gohan's training in parallel, suggested that a group effort not unlike the final fight with Vegeta in the Saiyan saga was possible.

And Gohan as the protagonist from the end of the Cell saga on works for me because it's a change, and a change that was given a set-up and payoff. I don't have a problem with Goku as a protagonist; I like Goku, and the earlier Dragon Ball arcs are great. But I also like the story told at the end of the Cell saga where Goku recognizes that his son has a better chance of victory than he does, and comes to the conclusion himself that he'd rather not offer himself up as a trouble magnet but go on to explore the afterlife, with his son taking up the mantle on Earth. That's not a rare story, but I think Dragon Ball told it well, and was a significant evolution for Goku as well as Gohan. Backtracking on those ideas and essentially ignoring them - even when they get re-stated within the Buu saga - is a detriment to Goku's character as well as Gohan's.

Maybe, but not Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is a series that doesn't take itself overly serious. It's quirky and goofy. That's not Gohan. He's a good supporting character.

From the King Piccolo arc up until the Buu saga, Dragon Ball gets progressively more serious. It's never without levity and cartoony gags, but the Saiyan, Freeza, and Cell sagas are most certainly not goofy. Things do start to get goofy again in the Buu saga, and I think that belies any notion that Gohan is to earnest (or "serious-minded," as Master Roshi put it in the manga) to function as the lead in such a series.

[RandomGuy96]

I would take literally anyone as protagonist over Goku by the end of the Buu arc. He's completely insufferable as a character from then up to the modern day.

[ABED]

But Vegetto doesn't defeat Buu. I don't find the Potarra contrived. It's just another means to do a technique that's already been introduced. If it had actually solved their problem, I might agree. How is this ANY more contrived than "just sit there as I stick my hands out at you and you get more power with no effort on your part"?

The theme is not just a greater opponent, but it's a greater opponent for Goku. He goes looking for greater opponents, Gohan doesn't. Toriyama tried to make the handoff in the Cell arc, but it was so clumsy that it was essentially Goku fighting Cell with Gohan acting as his proxy. This isn't a superhero story. Goku isn't Earth's greatest protector so the idea that he's passing a mantle is BS. It's paid lip service to, since Goku very often puts the world in danger. He's not it's protector because he's not a superhero. Also, it was not a story that was told well. Gohan needed his hand held at every single turn during the Cell Games. Gohan having more power than Goku doesn't make him a better choice for the lead at that point. You may like the Great Saiyaman material, but I don't find it compelling. There's no conflict whatsoever. And in a story that deals with world ending stakes, street level crime is hardly an interesting problem for the lead character to be dealing with. None of the reasons you mentioned makes him a compelling lead in DB. It makes him a nice superhero, but DB isn't a superhero story. Gohan becoming an academic and a family man is a much more logical ending than him taking over as lead. It's one that doesn't change the nature of the story. And I must have missed the part where Goten and Trunks develop because even after Chichi's murdered in front of them, Gotenks is still goofy. He's more concerned with showing off than fighting for the fate of the universe. I don't see any development whatsoever.

That's not a rare story, but I think Dragon Ball told it well

By making Gohan weak willed and needing his father to tell him what to do at every single turn? Gohan's use in the Cell arc is god awful and doesn't point to a character worthy of taking over either in universe or taking over the story. His story in the Buu arc isn't much better. He's shown to have slacked off and how does he gain the power to take down the bad guy? Sitting on his ass and having his "untapped" power drawn out of him again. That's not a good story.

And I fundamentally reject the idea that changing protagonists was a bad thing; you're not going to sway me on that, and I'm not going to sway you either.

What series can you name, other than DB apparently, that swaps out its lead after a long run and is the better for it?

is a detriment to Goku's character as well as Gohan's.

Completely disagree, forcing Gohan into that lead role was a detriment to his character. He was far more compelling as a supporting character. Goku deserves better than to just pass the torch to someone because they are stronger. He's a character that constantly strived towards something more.

You talk about set up and pay off, which I believe in as well, but you miss that the biggest set up is Goku's return from the dead are a huge reason for Buu's release. Had Goku not returned from the dead, Vegeta never would've agreed to go to the TB, seen Babidi's magic, and turned on everyone to force Goku to fight him, thus giving Babidi the power he needs to release Buu. Leaving Goku out of the resolution is a huge mistake. And as I said, Vegeta doesn't complete his arc if he's just relegated to a useless sacrifice.

Gohan's too passive to be a compelling lead which is the most damning evidence. That at the end of the day is the most salient point in favor of him not being a good lead.

[KBABZ]

I dunno this just sounds like Status Quo is God stuff here simply because it's been going for that long so why change? I think Gohan deserved a fair shake at being the protagonist given that the story was leaning him towards it.

By making Gohan weak willed and needing his father to tell him what to do at every single turn? Gohan's use in the Cell arc is god awful and doesn't point to a character worthy of taking over either in universe or taking over the story. His story in the Buu arc isn't much better. He's shown to have slacked off and how does he gain the power to take down the bad guy? Sitting on his ass and having his "untapped" power drawn out of him again. That's not a good story.

I think he was capable of making his own decisions. Cell arc makes sense since Gohan is still young and needs Goku's tutelage to become a better fighter. Buu arc, or at least the start, has Gohan acting very independently, and I think he would have continued that if Goku were unable to return for a day. Having Gohan sit still was terrible in that "yeah it's supposed to be" kinda way, but it's also the B Plot so it didn't need to be something herculean because the A Plot is where the action is at (it's also a drawn-out version of what happened on Namek). If Gohan's training WAS the A Plot then I guarantee that it would have been written to be much more interesting.

(also he trains with the Z Sword for a bit in a manner that harkens back to classic Turtle School weight training, so there's that)

[ABED]

It's not merely "why change" it's that Gohan doesn't have nearly the emotional investment that Goku does with the audience and his character isn't suited for DB. I have no desire for DB to turn into a superhero show. Goku's motivations may not be unique within the genre, but his motives are different than anything coming out of US TV.

You think Gohan wasn't given a real opportunity. I think he was and he's not a character well suited for it. Gohan is an employee given a promotion he wasn't right for and got pushed back down. The problem isn't him getting pushed back down, it's him getting the promotion in the first place.

It's not teaching Gohan needs, it's agency. Things happen to him. He doesn't make things happen.

I'm fine with certain changes to the status quo, but this is the one where I take a hardline stance. I've never seen changing out the main character done well. If a story goes as far as it can with its main character, then it's time to end the story. If you want to keep the world going, then spin off a new one, but don't switch the lead.

[zDBZ]

You talk about set up and pay off, which I believe in as well, but you miss that the biggest set up is Goku's return from the dead are a huge reason for Buu's release. Had Goku not returned from the dead, Vegeta never would've agreed to go to the TB, seen Babidi's magic, and turned on everyone to force Goku to fight him, thus giving Babidi the power he needs to release Buu. Leaving Goku out of the resolution is a huge mistake. And as I said, Vegeta doesn't complete his arc if he's just relegated to a useless sacrifice.

Vegeta was already planning to enter the tournament before Goku announced he was coming back for it. Goku's coming back had nothing to do with Babidi's minions being present, or with Supreme Kai entering. But I haven't disputed that Goku's involved in the events of the Buu saga or that his actions don't matter. He just doesn't have a story, and the saga actively promotes other characters as the mains and as the ones set to be responsible for defeating Buu.

Gohan's "passivity" isn't a problem for me. He doesn't initiate action himself very often, but when he does end up involved in something, he can and does act decisively and independently; I'm thinking of the plans he makes in the Freeza saga, electing to help Trunks investigate the time machine, and his choices throughout the Buu saga. KABAZ already covered what I would've said in response to the idea that Gohan needing support from Goku is "god awful" in the Cell saga. And I don't need Dragon Ball to be a superhero story either. There's a reason I listed Gohan's Saiyaman antics under the "slice of life" category, and described them as "playing superhero." Gohan isn't a Superman-type figure any more than his dad is. "Passing the mantle" is in reference to the protagonist's role, not to any concept of a superhero. But given the large chunk of Dragon Ball material that isn't concerned with "fate of the world" level stakes, I don't know why the early parts of the Buu saga should be inherently less interesting just because galaxies aren't on the line. If the character interactions are lively and entertaining and the story is well-told, a smaller-scale plot is just as if not more engaging than an epic.

As to other series with shifting protagonists (not necessarily under the same circumstances, but with a similar broad concept in mind) - Green Lantern, Flash, X-Men, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings on a shorter timescale.

[ABED]

Vegeta was already planning to enter the tournament before Goku announced he was coming back for it. Goku's coming back had nothing to do with Babidi's minions being present, or with Supreme Kai entering. But I haven't disputed that Goku's involved in the events of the Buu saga or that his actions don't matter. He just doesn't have a story, and the saga actively promotes other characters as the mains and as the ones set to be responsible for defeating Buu.

Vegeta wouldn't have allowed Babidi to make him a Majin had Goku not been there. It was because Goku only had one day that Vegeta became so desperate to fight him that he allowed Babidi to make him a Majin so he could force his long time rival into a battle. Without all this, Babidi doesn't get the required power. Goku and Vegeta mopping up their mess makes WAY more sense and is a far better payoff than whatever the other characters were doing. Others may have been set up to take the reigns but I think Toriyama's course correction was the right move. The next generation weren't as interesting as Goku and Vegeta.

Gohan's "passivity" isn't a problem for me. He doesn't initiate action himself very often, but when he does end up involved in something, he can and does act decisively and independently

No need for quotes. Gohan is passive when he's in the spotlight. He doesn't act decisively and independently when he's the lead which is exactly when you need him to have those qualities. Goku has to tell Gohan what to do and when to do it. Gohan is ready to give up had Goku not told him to give it his all. Before then, sure, he's helpful, but that's part of the reason I don't like the Cell Games and beyond for Gohan. He becomes less independent and active. A passive character in the lead isn't good writing. Make excuses that he's young and needs more guidance all you want, but that's exactly why he shouldn't be the lead. He becomes the lead when he's ready. Toriyama didn't go that route and so we get stuck with a main character who has to be told what to do and when to do it.

Gohan is far more of a superhero than Goku is. He fits the mold of a traditional hero than a wuxia hero like Goku whose fundamental goal is to fight stronger and stronger opponents. What do you think Gohan would be driven to do if he was the main character?

The slice of life stuff is completely overrated. It's fine in small doses, but the Great Saiyaman is too long and even the much loved driving episode is awful. The Great Saiyaman stuff in particular is bad because it's drawn out and there's little conflct. Gohan can stop street level crime in his sleep. There's no challenge, there are no stakes, barely even personal ones. So what if anyone finds out his secret identity? I'm more than fine with a personal scale story, but navigating high school politics in DB world isn't interesting. I don't want more of that in DB. The stakes of the TB's in DB were very personal. Even when they become the fate of the world, the stakes for Goku were about winning the tournament. That's DB. Gohan stopping some thugs on the street is not.

Green Lantern, Flash, X-Men, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings on a shorter timescale.

Bad examples using the X-Men, a song of fire and Ice and The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is a spin off, A song of fire and ice and X-Men are ever changing ensembles from damn near the beginning. I never found Wally or the other Flashes as interesting as Barry. I said after a long run. Out of all the things you names, only GL and Flash have single leads. I can't really speak to GL as I didn't read it. I have a passing familiarity with it.

[ricky84]

Gohan simply doesn't work as a protagonist of a Shonen series (not to say he's a bad character). He doesn't have the drive nor an interesting life-goal that fits the genre like say Naruto (wants to be Hokage), Luffy (wants to be the greatest pirate a find the One Piece), Goku (wants to be the best fighter he could be), Gon (wants to find his father), etc.

Goku fits perfectly as DB's protagonist. The only under characters that could possibly work as the protagonist are Vegeta, Future Trunks and the three U6 saiyans (believe it or not, especially Caulifia).

[zDBZ]

Gohan is far more of a superhero than Goku is. He fits the mold of a traditional hero than a wuxia hero like Goku whose fundamental goal is to fight stronger and stronger opponents. What do you think Gohan would be driven to do if he was the main character?

Study. Read. Enjoy the countryside he lives in. Help out with his family. Be polite but awkward around people. Gets involved in fights and battles and perilous quests when compelled to. What we saw at the start of the Buu saga, basically. Where the conflict - a lighthearted one, to be sure - ended up being his relationship with Videl and what that led to.

The Cell saga is a transitional one, and given that - and Gohan's age and demeanor - needing support and guidance makes sense. His doubt at the end also makes sense, given that he's crippled, everyone else is outmatched, the senzu are gone, Cell got a zenkai boost, and Gohan's own mistakes cost his father his life. He's in despair - with reason - and it's not a narrative vice to have a character need help coming out of that despair.

[ABED]

Gohan is far more of a superhero than Goku is. He fits the mold of a traditional hero than a wuxia hero like Goku whose fundamental goal is to fight stronger and stronger opponents. What do you think Gohan would be driven to do if he was the main character?

Study. Read. Enjoy the countryside he lives in. Help out with his family. Be polite but awkward around people. Gets involved in fights and battles and perilous quests when compelled to. What we saw at the start of the Buu saga, basically. Where the conflict - a lighthearted one, to be sure - ended up being his relationship with Videl and what that led to.

The Cell saga is a transitional one, and given that - and Gohan's age and demeanor - needing support and guidance makes sense. His doubt at the end also makes sense, given that he's crippled, everyone else is outmatched, the senzu are gone, Cell got a zenkai boost, and Gohan's own mistakes cost his father his life. He's in despair - with reason - and it's not a narrative vice to have a character need help coming out of that despair.

Wow, studying, that's so exciting to watch, especially after seeing Goku take on two Piccolos, Vegeta, and Freeza. It would be a ridiculous idea to change lead characters for those sorts of plots. The was a very lighthearted conflict between Gohan and Videl, but no stakes, not even personal ones.

It makes sense that he'd need support, but not that the main character wouldn't eventually find his footing by the end. I'm not arguing his doubt doesn't make sense, simply that none of these things are the traits of a main character. Gohan doesn't come out of it to prove his worth. There was no arc. He's told what to do by his father at every step. It's weird because that was the arc in the Saiyan arc. He has power, but no courage, but eventually finds it and decides on his own to go back and help his father against Vegeta. In the Cell arc, he doesn't want to fight, his power only comes out when he loses his temper, is at the mercy of his emotions, and loses his confidence to the point where he is ready to give up if it weren't for a pep talk by his father. Then he has to be given the strategy to defeat Cell. Perhaps this all makes sense (arguable) for a young child, but not the main character because he's never driving the car. At best, he's in the driver's seat in one of those driver's ed cars where the teacher also can control it. If Gohan overcame all these obstacles by the end, it could've been a compelling arc, but he never does. Instead of showing Gohan is worthy of the lead, it shows that Goku is the one true choice.

It's particularly telling that you wrote "when compelled to" because that's a big point I've been making. Gohan is constantly having to be compelled. He doesn't drive the narrative. Stuff happens to him. It would be okay if eventually it lead to him overcoming it all and becoming an active character with agency, but it doesn't.

The sort of stories you are talking about with Gohan as the lead sounds far more like a spin-off than DB.

[Attitudefan]

What series can you name, other than DB apparently, that swaps out its lead after a long run and is the better for it?

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure does this quite successfully. I agree with your points mainly, but there are exceptions to the rule where it works for the better. While Jojo might be an exception to the rule, it does prove, when done right, that swapping out the main character not only works, but benefits the overall narrative.

[ABED]

What series can you name, other than DB apparently, that swaps out its lead after a long run and is the better for it?

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure does this quite successfully. I agree with your points mainly, but there are exceptions to the rule where it works for the better. While Jojo might be an exception to the rule, it does prove, when done right, that swapping out the main character not only works, but benefits the overall narrative.

A lot of people have cited that, but doesn't it set up changing the leads early on? It has more in common with Power Rangers or Super Sentai where there's a common thread, but the leads change every year or so. That's not what I've been talking about for a while. I'm talking about starting a show and after 3 or so years, changing out the lead, like when they did it in Dukes of Hazzard, That 70's Show, The X-Files, One Tree Hill, and to an extent The Office. Each of these shows had a lead or leads that stayed on for years and after a while, decided to leave, and the show kept going, but were never the same. DB tried it and it didn't work.

zDBZ keeps bringing up the Great Saiyaman "arc", but to the extent it works is in part because it's relatively short. Sometimes things work BECAUSE of the limited amount of screentime. The extent that it works is because it helped show Earth in a time of peace. It allowed for the slow burn. To put it another way, just because something worked, it doesn't neccessarily follow that Toriyama should've added more of it.

[Attitudefan]

What series can you name, other than DB apparently, that swaps out its lead after a long run and is the better for it?

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure does this quite successfully. I agree with your points mainly, but there are exceptions to the rule where it works for the better. While Jojo might be an exception to the rule, it does prove, when done right, that swapping out the main character not only works, but benefits the overall narrative.

A lot of people have cited that, but doesn't it set up changing the leads early on? It has more in common with Power Rangers or Super Sentai where there's a common thread, but the leads change every year or so. That's not what I've been talking about for a while. I'm talking about starting a show and after 3 or so years, changing out the lead, like when they did it in Dukes of Hazzard, That 70's Show, The X-Files, One Tree Hill, and to an extent The Office. Each of these shows had a lead or leads that stayed on for years and after a while, decided to leave, and the show kept going, but were never the same. DB tried it and it didn't work.

zDBZ keeps bringing up the Great Saiyaman "arc", but to the extent it works is in part because it's relatively short. Sometimes things work BECAUSE of the limited amount of screentime. The extent that it works is because it helped show Earth in a time of peace. It allowed for the slow burn. To put it another way, just because something worked, it doesn't neccessarily follow that Toriyama should've added more of it.

I agree with you. For Jojo, it shocked me when it happened, but perhaps it did work because it was really early on when it was introduced in replacing the protagonist. The first arc with the original protagonist ran from January 1, 1987 – October 26, 1987 which is really short term when compared with its competition.

[zDBZ]

zDBZ keeps bringing up the Great Saiyaman "arc", but to the extent it works is in part because it's relatively short. Sometimes things work BECAUSE of the limited amount of screentime. The extent that it works is because it helped show Earth in a time of peace. It allowed for the slow burn. To put it another way, just because something worked, it doesn't neccessarily follow that Toriyama should've added more of it.

Yeah...no.

I brought up the Great Saiyaman as one of many things I liked about Gohan as the main character and wanted to see more of - that's it. "More" was never specified; as it happens, I think the anime expanded the Saiyaman material as much as one reasonably could have or should have in their filler. More important, and more enjoyable, to me in that early "slice of life" material was Gohan as the big brother and Gohan interacting with Videl, and if I could have anything in that material expanded in both the manga and anime, that would be it - those three, and Trunks, training and adventuring together, all as part of the lead-up to the Budokai and the Buu saga proper.

[KBABZ]

More important, and more enjoyable, to me in that early "slice of life" material was Gohan as the big brother and Gohan interacting with Videl, and if I could have anything in that material expanded in both the manga and anime, that would be it - those three, and Trunks, training and adventuring together, all as part of the lead-up to the Budokai and the Buu saga proper.

Oh man that stuff is fantastic. Gohan's a great big brother to Goten it's so adorable, and seeing that Trunks respects him despite being a bit of a brat was an unexpected surprise for me when I watched TFC. It's just cool seeing the characters interact and seeing where their lives are at after the seven year skip, and it's something GT uses effectively in the early episodes and before/during Baby's arrival on Earth. It reminds me a lot of when Goku visited West City and just hung out with Bulma for an afternoon before continuing the adventure.

[ABED]

zDBZ keeps bringing up the Great Saiyaman "arc", but to the extent it works is in part because it's relatively short. Sometimes things work BECAUSE of the limited amount of screentime. The extent that it works is because it helped show Earth in a time of peace. It allowed for the slow burn. To put it another way, just because something worked, it doesn't neccessarily follow that Toriyama should've added more of it.

Yeah...no.

I brought up the Great Saiyaman as one of many things I liked about Gohan as the main character and wanted to see more of - that's it. "More" was never specified; as it happens, I think the anime expanded the Saiyaman material as much as one reasonably could have or should have in their filler. More important, and more enjoyable, to me in that early "slice of life" material was Gohan as the big brother and Gohan interacting with Videl, and if I could have anything in that material expanded in both the manga and anime, that would be it - those three, and Trunks, training and adventuring together, all as part of the lead-up to the Budokai and the Buu saga proper.

You're splitting hairs. The point was that slice of life stuff is effective to the degree it is BECAUSE it is as short as it is. It's like a recipe. The amount of the ingredients is just as important as the ingredients themselves. A little bit of garlic salt on a steak adds a lot of flavor, but too much and it's ruined.

This is my unpopular opinion but those episodes are mostly boring.

FYI, I'm including the Gohan interacting with Videl and Goten as part of the Great Saiyaman "arc", not just when he's fighting crime.

[Green_Goblin]

I believe that Gohan is much more logical, realistic and humane character than Goku and that I and many others find easier to be affiliated with/attached to than just a middle-aged guy who act like a 5 years old and who only cares about "fighting strong guys" or than his grumpy and no-fun counter-part, Vegeta. IF they'll do this switch anytime after Goku will leave to train Uub, I'd be glad.