Can I just ignore Super's existence?

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Nokra » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:25 pm

Robo4900 wrote:You absolutely can ignore Super.

People will argue about "Canon" and other nonsense like that, but basically, Dragon Ball has already been a complete story four times before Super came along; the original manga run's end, the end of GT, the Kanzenban revised ending, and Kai's ending. I personally still consider the original anime run of DB, Z, and GT to be the definitive Dragon Ball experience, so as far as I'm concerned, if you don't want to consider Super, that's perfectly fine.

(And of course, if you want to get into the canon debate, good luck on getting a consensus on anime vs manga)

Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Robo4900 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Nokra wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:You absolutely can ignore Super.

People will argue about "Canon" and other nonsense like that, but basically, Dragon Ball has already been a complete story four times before Super came along; the original manga run's end, the end of GT, the Kanzenban revised ending, and Kai's ending. I personally still consider the original anime run of DB, Z, and GT to be the definitive Dragon Ball experience, so as far as I'm concerned, if you don't want to consider Super, that's perfectly fine.

(And of course, if you want to get into the canon debate, good luck on getting a consensus on anime vs manga)

Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?

The original anime run of DB, Z, and GT, as in the original three anime shows that comprised the Dragon Ball franchise, as in all the animated material from before things were kind of rebooted with 2008's JSAT special and 2009's Kai series.

Dislike GT and/or quibble that it wasn't based on a manga by Toriyama all you like, it was part of the original 1986-1997 run that -- when combined with the movies that were released across 1986-1996 -- comprised the entire franchise in its animated form until its revival 11 years later with 2008's JSAT special, and 2009-2015's Kai run on TV, which was immediately followed(One week later in fact, just like DB to Z, and Z to GT) by Super's 2015-present run. Thus, 1986-1997's Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and the related specials and movies form the original anime run, and the 2008-present Kai, Super, and related specials and movies form the revived/new anime run.

Remember that, like with Z to DB, GT's first episode ran the week after Z's final episode, and for all intents and purposes was the next chapter in the story. And as far as I'm concerned, that never stopped being the case. A lot of people seem to think the new run supersedes the old run, but given we not only have two anime runs, but also a manga run, deciding any particular run matters more than the others in any context other than "I personally find this run to be my favourite" seems just silly to me; just enjoy what you want.
And naturally, just like I say with Super, you may disregard GT if you wish. Z too, if you want. Disregard the entire 1986-1997 run if you want, even; it's not my business how you enjoy Dragon Ball. Just the fact you do enjoy it is what matters. I hate the Super anime, but I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for liking it, or considering it "Canon"(Whatever that's even supposed to mean these days), that would make me a dick, and wouldn't really be an interesting, pleasant, or constructive way to interact with the fandom.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby sunsetshimmer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Nokra wrote:Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?


DBZ anime was directly followed by GT which was official sequel and part of anime story so original run is trilogy.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Nokra » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:41 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Nokra wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:You absolutely can ignore Super.

People will argue about "Canon" and other nonsense like that, but basically, Dragon Ball has already been a complete story four times before Super came along; the original manga run's end, the end of GT, the Kanzenban revised ending, and Kai's ending. I personally still consider the original anime run of DB, Z, and GT to be the definitive Dragon Ball experience, so as far as I'm concerned, if you don't want to consider Super, that's perfectly fine.

(And of course, if you want to get into the canon debate, good luck on getting a consensus on anime vs manga)

Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?

The original anime run of DB, Z, and GT, as in the original three anime shows that comprised the Dragon Ball franchise, as in all the animated material from before things were kind of rebooted with 2008's JSAT special and 2009's Kai series.

Dislike GT and/or quibble that it wasn't based on a manga by Toriyama all you like, it was part of the original 1986-1997 run that -- when combined with the movies that were released across 1986-1996 -- comprised the entire franchise in its animated form until its revival 11 years later with 2008's JSAT special, and 2009-2015's Kai run on TV, which was immediately followed(One week later in fact, just like DB to Z, and Z to GT) by Super's 2015-present run. Thus, 1986-1997's Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and the related specials and movies form the original anime run, and the 2008-present Kai, Super, and related specials and movies form the revived/new anime run.

Remember that, like with Z to DB, GT's first episode ran the week after Z's final episode, and for all intents and purposes was the next chapter in the story. And as far as I'm concerned, that never stopped being the case. A lot of people seem to think the new run supersedes the old run, but given we not only have two anime runs, but also a manga run, deciding any particular run matters more than the others in any context other than "I personally find this run to be my favourite" seems just silly to me; just enjoy what you want.
And naturally, just like I say with Super, you may disregard GT if you wish. Z too, if you want. Disregard the entire 1986-1997 run if you want, even; it's not my business how you enjoy Dragon Ball. Just the fact you do enjoy it is what matters. I hate the Super anime, but I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for liking it, or considering it "Canon"(Whatever that's even supposed to mean these days), that would make me a dick, and wouldn't really be an interesting, pleasant, or constructive way to interact with the fandom.

I never said that I dislike gt or anything about disregarding it or dbz so I don't know why you started talking about all of that. All I was saying is that I don't really consider gt apart of the "original run" since when people say that they are usually only referring to db and z. But if you consider it apart of the original run then go ahead I guess.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby GT_Goten10 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:51 pm

I would say Original DB=DB Manga(Z&DB)
Orginal (Anime) run=DB->Bardock Special->Z->Movies/Specials->GT
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Cetra » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:49 pm

Nokra wrote:I never said that I dislike gt or anything about disregarding it or dbz so I don't know why you started talking about all of that. All I was saying is that I don't really consider gt apart of the "original run" since when people say that they are usually only referring to db and z. But if you consider it apart of the original run then go ahead I guess.


GT immediately aired after Z was done. It absolutely is part of the original run. That was the entire point. Not ending the show.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby PFM18 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:44 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Nokra wrote:Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?


DBZ anime was directly followed by GT which was official sequel and part of anime story so original run is trilogy.


It's part of the original run but it is still more of a side story than something that is or ever was part of the main continuity. When people refer to "original series" it usually doesn't refer to GT in there.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby sunsetshimmer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:05 pm

PFM18 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Nokra wrote:Says "original anime run". Mentions DBGT. Uhh...what?


DBZ anime was directly followed by GT which was official sequel and part of anime story so original run is trilogy.


It's part of the original run but it is still more of a side story than something that is or ever was part of the main continuity. When people refer to "original series" it usually doesn't refer to GT in there.


GT is considered side story to main story because it optionally goes beyond where manga ended. But it's (or at least was) totally part of anime continuity.
It just aired as next series, a sequel, the same way like DBZ aired after DB. It was produced by TOEI just like previous series, they made a sequel to their anime which was approved by Toriyama. They created anime continuity and put GT into it making Dragon Ball anime a tirlogy.

"When people" it doesn't mean they are right. They are either wrong or just ignorant trying to pretend GT doesn't exist and wasn't part of anime trilogy. It was.
Of course it isn't part of main continuity, just like DB/DBZ anime isn't. They were always just more or less accurate animated versions of real Dragon Ball story which was always manga and nothing else.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby PFM18 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:14 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
DBZ anime was directly followed by GT which was official sequel and part of anime story so original run is trilogy.


It's part of the original run but it is still more of a side story than something that is or ever was part of the main continuity. When people refer to "original series" it usually doesn't refer to GT in there.


GT is considered side story to main story because it optionally goes beyond where manga ended. But it's (or at least was) totally part of anime continuity.
It just aired as next series, a sequel, the same way like DBZ aired after DB. It was produced by TOEI just like previous series, they made a sequel to their anime which was approved by Toriyama. They created anime continuity and put GT into it making Dragon Ball anime a tirlogy.

"When people" it doesn't mean they are right. They are either wrong or just ignorant trying to pretend GT doesn't exist and wasn't part of anime trilogy. It was.
Of course it isn't part of main continuity, just like DB/DBZ anime isn't. They were always just more or less accurate animated versions of real Dragon Ball story which was always manga and nothing else.


It was "part" of the anime continuity in that it was literally the next anime that was aired. Where DB and DBZ were just adaptations to the Dragon Ball's original manga, GT isn't really associated with such a manga by the original series creator. In fact, the series creator acknowledged it as "a side story." So outside of the most superficial way, in that it came right after DBZ ended, it was never part of the anime continuity.

The anime of DB/DBZ are ultimately just adaptations of the main continuity. Gt can't say the same. So "when people" are right in this case.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:25 pm

You can ignore it for yourself but you can't ignore it on a community because when a discussion will occur about let's say for exemple Super Saiyan transformation theory there will be canon element from Super during the debate.

So you can ignore it but not totally.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby PFM18 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:35 pm

I guess I just don't get WHY you would ignore it. What makes it not worthy of being a DB continuation?

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Robo4900 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:55 pm

PFM18 wrote:I guess I just don't get WHY you would ignore it. What makes it not worthy of being a DB continuation?

Super?
Well, for starters there's the fact all the characters are flanderised beyond recognition, there's the plotting worthy of an 8-year-old's fanfic, there's the four or five different transformations we've gained over the three years it's been running so far, there's the unreasonably slow pace, the ridiculously inconsistent animation, the music that doesn't sound even vaguely Dragon Ball-y...

Much as there's a lot about Super that people love, there's a lot to hate, and if you end up finding more to hate than to love, it's not a productive use of your time to watch something you hate. I realised this quite late into the anime's run, and now am just exclusively reading the manga, since that telling, I'm actually realy enjoying.

PFM18 wrote:It was "part" of the anime continuity in that it was literally the next anime that was aired. Where DB and DBZ were just adaptations to the Dragon Ball's original manga, GT isn't really associated with such a manga by the original series creator. In fact, the series creator acknowledged it as "a side story." So outside of the most superficial way, in that it came right after DBZ ended, it was never part of the anime continuity.

The anime of DB/DBZ are ultimately just adaptations of the main continuity. Gt can't say the same. So "when people" are right in this case.

If you want to say GT isn't "Part of the anime continuity", then you're applying the same to all the filler and movies, aswell as all the material in Super that wasn't one of the main arcs. Remember that.

Anyway, who cares about continuity? Trying to discuss Dragon Ball canon coherently is just a dumb thing to do in my opinion; we've got three different tellings of the Z storyline, all of which are at odds with each-other for one reason or another, and then there's two sequels to that which are also at odds with each-other, one of which comes in two different flavours that are at odds with each-other...
A lot of people "Solve" this by saying "everything that isn't in the manga is not canon", and... I consider this just a dumb little stopgap to prevent their theory from falling apart under the smallest bit of scrutiny. But even this doesn't work, since most people talk about the Super anime as the "canon continuation", even though it's vastly different from the manga, which by all accounts Toriyama is a lot more heavily involved in...

So, how about instead of debating the endless, pointless, dumb, tired-out debate of Dragon Ball "Continuity", we all just relax and enjoy the fact there's so many different ways we can enjoy this story we're all obsessed with.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby funrush » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:52 pm

Sure, you can ignore Super. There are people who ignore the Buu arc, and even some people who ignore everything past Freeza. Consume the franchise how you want, it's just TV.

I like Super, I don't think it's near as good as the original series but I don't think it's so mediocre that it should be wiped from continuity.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:22 am

You can ignore anything you want in Dragon Ball. It's up to your discretion.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Ripper 30 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:29 am

Definitely. it's a horrible Continuation to one of the most influential manga with well written charming characters, story, atmosphere and fights. GT to me feels more like a continuation to Z than DBS ever did so i take it as Classic Dragon Ball Trilogy. Dragon Ball Kai can be counted in it since it's the same show with remastering but Dragon Ball Super is a mistake. i just followed it because it is Dragon Ball but it was the worse show in the franchise. i mean all the quality writing was mainly in Original manga or till End of Z, after it the shows just lost some kind of charm. GT atleast had its fair share of themes and concepts which made it somewhat respectable show specially due to its ending, unlike DBS Which is Cash Cow. so yes, DBS can be ignored.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby PFM18 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:49 am

Robo 4900 wrote:Well, for starters there's the fact all the characters are flanderised beyond recognition


I honestly find this criticism to be pretty baffling. To me, the characterizations are identical to what they have been and to what you should expect from the characters at this point in the series. Maybe your perception is different watching it as an adult versus seeing it as a child?

People pretend Vegeta being cocky or Goku being stupid are new things. They're literally defining characteristics of the characters that will never change nor should they ever change.
there's the plotting worthy of an 8-year-old's fanfic


I don't see how you can sit here and say that the plot of the Zamasu arc isn't far more compelling and thematically interesting than anything we saw in Z/Post-Raditz of the manga. Also, the ToP is by far the most ambitious story that DB has ever attempted. Sure, it didn't turn out as well as it could have been, but it still surpasses most arcs from the original series IMO.
there's the four or five different transformations we've gained over the three years it's been running so far


If anything is flanderized, it is this comment. We literally have the main characters using the same transformation in the upcoming movie, as they were using before the series was even announced. SSB has persisted throughout the entire series. They literally have not gained a new prominent transformation this entire time. In Z you had SSJ, then the Grades, then SSJ2, then SSJ3, etc. The only prominent transformations we see are of antagonists, and going by that logic, Z/post-raditz had nine transformations. Vegeta had 1, Freeza with 4,(including his buff form) Cell with 2, and Buu with 2. Frankly, this really isn't legitimate criticism.
there's the unreasonably slow pace


A slow pace is standard for this franchise. See any of the other anime series to come out of Dragon Ball.

the ridiculously inconsistent animation


The animation was only inconsistent in the retellings. Since, the animation has consistently blown everything else Dragon Ball out of the water.
the music that doesn't sound even vaguely Dragon Ball-y


I just disagree. The music is amazing.
If you want to say GT isn't "Part of the anime continuity", then you're applying the same to all the filler and movies, aswell as all the material in Super that wasn't one of the main arcs. Remember that.


Yes, absolutely. All the filler, all the movies, and GT are all not part of the main anime continuity. That can be clearly seen. In the case of Super, there is no filler so everything is part of the continuity.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Ripper 30 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 am

PFM18 wrote:
Robo 4900 wrote:Well, for starters there's the fact all the characters are flanderised beyond recognition


I honestly find this criticism to be pretty baffling. To me, the characterizations are identical to what they have been and to what you should expect from the characters at this point in the series. Maybe your perception is different watching it as an adult versus seeing it as a child?

People pretend Vegeta being cocky or Goku being stupid are new things. They're literally defining characteristics of the characters that will never change nor should they ever change.


no, your perception is the one that's different. Goku was dumb here and there but we clearly saw him maturing in Z arcs specially his characterization in Last two arcs. whether it's being more calmer and confident or the symbolic and thematic growth from a student to his own master. he likes passing his Martial Arts knowledge to kids and before the outcome now he can predict whether the opponent is even worth it or not like with Nappa or Reacoom. now in DBS its hard to believe that this same retard is the one we saw in DBZ, whether he says he's no good at training kids to Dende in DBS which is godawful characterization or him being an Ultra Retard and not being able to tell disguised monaka to be Beerus with ki or Natural movements. those things make him more retarded, Vegeta in the end of Boo arc was more mature and stopped chasing Goku and even as a Character was more "Humanized". there is no reason for him to talk shit to Goku when he called him better warrior than him whereas in DBS he is saying the same stuff from Cell arc. that's character regression not development. he's a One Dimensional Typical stoic guy in DBS who has nothing new about his character other than whining even though he got over it in kid boo fight. he risked his life to let Goku create Genkidama by stalling Kid boo whereas in ToP he refuses to give Goku his genki like a bitch despite universe being at stake. you seem to have a soft spot for DBS, but it's writing is just fanficky level trash and there's no need to drag Z into same realm as DBS.


PFM18 wrote:
there's the plotting worthy of an 8-year-old's fanfic


I don't see how you can sit here and say that the plot of the Zamasu arc isn't far more compelling and thematically interesting than anything we saw in Z/Post-Raditz of the manga. Also, the ToP is by far the most ambitious story that DB has ever attempted. Sure, it didn't turn out as well as it could have been, but it still surpasses most arcs from the original series IMO.


lmao, that's a good one. the Plot of Zamasu arc is itself a plothole. a God saying all mortals are evil after seeing two brainless creatures fight..... wow you call this compelling?
he might as well see two stray dogs fighting and say mortals are bad based on them. with the most cliché evil goku evil Kaioshin idea and a deua ex machina to save them, if that's more compelling to you than what we got in Z part then you don't know the meaning of the word. are you being Sarcastic or not because you aren't making any sense. Tournament of Power is one of the most crappiest anime arcs ever. ToP encapsulates some of the worst of DB.

If the Dark Star DB arc from GT was humor but forgetting how Toriyama made the jokes so great, the ToP arc is fighting while forgetting what gave those old fights weight & impact in DB/Z.
I think most of the episodes in the tournament are kind of inoffensive, mostly boring before bad. But the lack of narrative structure, shitty pacing, and failure at making it feel like a battle royale really brings it down.

Don't even get me started on just how terrible some episodes can get, making it the peak of atrocious Dragon Ball writing.
I've never seen an arc so disconnected, so disjointed, that it achieves the opposite of what its first goal is, a battle royale. we always had downtime in DBZ arcs so that we can see what our heroes are protecting or different scenes to see what's happening in other scenarios, nonstop fight fight fight is what ruined ToP and give Non DB fans the fake idea that DB is nonstop fight because that's exactly what ToP was. the retarded asspulls vegeta got because of "muh cabba" or the crap that was Mastered Ultra Instinct with the most boring lazy design from fanfictions.

Really really really want to consider it DB's worst arc because it's overarching presentstion is straight garbage.
This really is one of Dragon Ball's worst arcs.



PFM18 wrote:If anything is flanderized, it is this comment. We literally have the main characters using the same transformation in the upcoming movie, as they were using before the series was even announced. SSB has persisted throughout the entire series. They literally have not gained a new prominent transformation this entire time. In Z you had SSJ, then the Grades, then SSJ2, then SSJ3, etc. The only prominent transformations we see are of antagonists, and going by that logic, Z/post-raditz had nine transformations. Vegeta had 1, Freeza with 4,(including his buff form) Cell with 2, and Buu with 2. Frankly, this really isn't legitimate criticism.


again, he's talking about SS Transformations. in DBS they clearly are lazy recolors to sell toys like ssj Red, ssj blue, ssj rose and later on ssj white (UI Mastered). in Z the ssj grades were ssj only but with different levels of power consumption. ssj2 and ssj3 were different from older ssj. in DBS, they have given so much options to Goku like seriously he has base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue. did you see that? how lazy fanservice it is?
in Z he uses either ssj or ssj2 most of the time since ssj3 had flaws.

PFM18 wrote:A slow pace is standard for this franchise. See any of the other anime series to come out of Dragon Ball.


no, the ToP is dragged for no reason. Battle Royale is supposed to happen quickly but in DBS its episodic mindless entertainment. like i am watching monster of the week program. "today's episode is about Goku beating him", "today's episode will be about #18 beating her", shit like this. it's like a contest among writers/animators for who writes the most coolest shit, ToP is just an arc about cool shit and no substance.

Toei reuses animation at least twice per episode. Characters talking about stuff the audience already knows takes up about half of each episode.

he teams are way bigger than necessary. Could have been 5 characters per team and not 10. There was no reason for them to force themselves to create over 60 new characters especially considering 80% of them were boring to watch in action. There were way more fights than needed and it left me bored out of my mind. Second, the scaling is shit. Yes this is important and in Z atleast the logic established made sense and we know that Roshi or Kuririn won't go on par with Cell or Boo. we don't see Goku in SS3 doing Kamehameha vs Kuririn.

Power in ToP means nothing and you are rarely ever given an indication of how strong anyone is so anyone could be matched up with anyone and the result would exactly the same.

This is connected to the problem I listed earlier as well; with 80 fucking participants in the tournament there was no way they could have managed to establish a hierarchy so you just sort of lose track of how strong everyone but the main characters are. It just leaves you asking "okay, what was the point" or "okay, how did that happen" every time anything happens. And since you already know Universe 7 is going to win in the end, it feels really empty. Friendship powerups are introduced instead of interesting ways to deal with the bad guy. Trunks, Vegeta, Goku - everyone gets oneNear the end of the ToP every episode is the same.

They punch Jiren and it doesn't work.

This is the focus of at least 7 episodes. No one gains an advantage, the tables don't turn, they don't change approaches. They just attack him the SAME way over and over. Bruh they spend a whole episode trying to fucking step on a bug. Goku Post-Z resorts to using Landmines in a fight irrespective of it being Tournament or not, lmao.


PFM18 wrote:
The animation was only inconsistent in the retellings. Since, the animation has consistently blown everything else Dragon Ball out of the water.


Super has better animation than Z but Z has better direction, sound design and tricks that make a bad looking fight enjoyable. Super is superior when it comes to animation but Z is a better show due to how smartly its handled. i would rather watch Z than DBS with its lazy designs.

PFM18 wrote:
I just disagree. The music is amazing.


as Animeajay also pointed out on Twitter, the music in Kai is scenes are directed from a fan viewpoint, rather than a narrative one. this is the same issue with DBS one, it doesn't have that Wuxia feeling anymore but just typical "Epic Anime Music" and totally lacking the identity that Kikuchi score had.

PFM18 wrote:
Yes, absolutely. All the filler, all the movies, and GT are all not part of the main anime continuity. That can be clearly seen. In the case of Super, there is no filler so everything is part of the continuity.


DBS itself isn't worth considering as a Part of community because of the bad decisions being taken like making Broli Canon again because he's famous.
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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Jord » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:46 am

ignore it if you want. I do the same. Why watch something that you don't enjoy?
I myself watch the original trilogy (DB-Z-GT) and enjoy it for the large story it tells.

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:28 am

Ripper 30 wrote: the retarded asspulls vegeta got because of "muh cabba"


Um..litterally every transformation in Z is an asspull. And I never got why people were upset about Vegeta getting SSJBE because he was keeping a promise to a Saiyan he respected, but have no problem with Gohan sh**ting out SSJ2 because some random android he didn´t know gets killed.

And since you already know Universe 7 is going to win in the end, it feels really empty.


You can apply that logic to any other moment in the series and it would be exactly the same. The beam struggle between Gohan and Super Perfect Cell is empty and pointless because we know Gohan is gonna win. Goku spirit bomb struggle with Kid Buu is pointless because we know he´s gonna win. The threat of Namek exploding while Goku and Frieza fight is pointless because we know he is gonna win and somehow escape destruction. That is not a valid claim against super in any right.

again, he's talking about SS Transformations. in DBS they clearly are lazy recolors to sell toys like ssj Red, ssj blue, ssj rose and later on ssj white (UI Mastered). in Z the ssj grades were ssj only but with different levels of power consumption. ssj2 and ssj3 were different from older ssj. in DBS, they have given so many options to Goku like seriously he has base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue. did you see that? how lazy fanservice it is?
in Z he uses either ssj or ssj2 most of the time since ssj3 had flaws.


While I will absolutely agree that the designs of the new god forms are lazy, Take a moment to consider that after Super Saiyan most designs got ridiculous. SSJ2 is just super saiyan with lighting around it, and SSJ3 is just Super Saiyan Raditz. And I will applaud super for giving kaioken a use again, even if it was only for nostalgia fanservice.

a God saying all mortals are evil after seeing two brainless creatures fight..... wow you call this compelling?


Anything would sound uncompelling when you oversimplify them like that. Thats like me calling the cell saga ¨a big robot bug built to be evil¨ or the Buu saga ¨ a giant wad of bubble gum thats evil¨

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Re: Can I just ignore Super's existence?

Postby Nokra » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:28 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Robo 4900 wrote:Well, for starters there's the fact all the characters are flanderised beyond recognition


I honestly find this criticism to be pretty baffling. To me, the characterizations are identical to what they have been and to what you should expect from the characters at this point in the series. Maybe your perception is different watching it as an adult versus seeing it as a child?

People pretend Vegeta being cocky or Goku being stupid are new things. They're literally defining characteristics of the characters that will never change nor should they ever change.


no, your perception is the one that's different. Goku was dumb here and there but we clearly saw him maturing in Z arcs specially his characterization in Last two arcs. whether it's being more calmer and confident or the symbolic and thematic growth from a student to his own master. he likes passing his Martial Arts knowledge to kids and before the outcome now he can predict whether the opponent is even worth it or not like with Nappa or Reacoom. now in DBS its hard to believe that this same retard is the one we saw in DBZ, whether he says he's no good at training kids to Dende in DBS which is godawful characterization or him being an Ultra Retard and not being able to tell disguised monaka to be Beerus with ki or Natural movements. those things make him more retarded, Vegeta in the end of Boo arc was more mature and stopped chasing Goku and even as a Character was more "Humanized". there is no reason for him to talk shit to Goku when he called him better warrior than him whereas in DBS he is saying the same stuff from Cell arc. that's character regression not development. he's a One Dimensional Typical stoic guy in DBS who has nothing new about his character other than whining even though he got over it in kid boo fight. he risked his life to let Goku create Genkidama by stalling Kid boo whereas in ToP he refuses to give Goku his genki like a bitch despite universe being at stake. you seem to have a soft spot for DBS, but it's writing is just fanficky level trash and there's no need to drag Z into same realm as DBS.


PFM18 wrote:
there's the plotting worthy of an 8-year-old's fanfic


I don't see how you can sit here and say that the plot of the Zamasu arc isn't far more compelling and thematically interesting than anything we saw in Z/Post-Raditz of the manga. Also, the ToP is by far the most ambitious story that DB has ever attempted. Sure, it didn't turn out as well as it could have been, but it still surpasses most arcs from the original series IMO.


lmao, that's a good one. the Plot of Zamasu arc is itself a plothole. a God saying all mortals are evil after seeing two brainless creatures fight..... wow you call this compelling?
he might as well see two stray dogs fighting and say mortals are bad based on them. with the most cliché evil goku evil Kaioshin idea and a deua ex machina to save them, if that's more compelling to you than what we got in Z part then you don't know the meaning of the word. are you being Sarcastic or not because you aren't making any sense. Tournament of Power is one of the most crappiest anime arcs ever. ToP encapsulates some of the worst of DB.

If the Dark Star DB arc from GT was humor but forgetting how Toriyama made the jokes so great, the ToP arc is fighting while forgetting what gave those old fights weight & impact in DB/Z.
I think most of the episodes in the tournament are kind of inoffensive, mostly boring before bad. But the lack of narrative structure, shitty pacing, and failure at making it feel like a battle royale really brings it down.

Don't even get me started on just how terrible some episodes can get, making it the peak of atrocious Dragon Ball writing.
I've never seen an arc so disconnected, so disjointed, that it achieves the opposite of what its first goal is, a battle royale. we always had downtime in DBZ arcs so that we can see what our heroes are protecting or different scenes to see what's happening in other scenarios, nonstop fight fight fight is what ruined ToP and give Non DB fans the fake idea that DB is nonstop fight because that's exactly what ToP was. the retarded asspulls vegeta got because of "muh cabba" or the crap that was Mastered Ultra Instinct with the most boring lazy design from fanfictions.

Really really really want to consider it DB's worst arc because it's overarching presentstion is straight garbage.
This really is one of Dragon Ball's worst arcs.



PFM18 wrote:If anything is flanderized, it is this comment. We literally have the main characters using the same transformation in the upcoming movie, as they were using before the series was even announced. SSB has persisted throughout the entire series. They literally have not gained a new prominent transformation this entire time. In Z you had SSJ, then the Grades, then SSJ2, then SSJ3, etc. The only prominent transformations we see are of antagonists, and going by that logic, Z/post-raditz had nine transformations. Vegeta had 1, Freeza with 4,(including his buff form) Cell with 2, and Buu with 2. Frankly, this really isn't legitimate criticism.


again, he's talking about SS Transformations. in DBS they clearly are lazy recolors to sell toys like ssj Red, ssj blue, ssj rose and later on ssj white (UI Mastered). in Z the ssj grades were ssj only but with different levels of power consumption. ssj2 and ssj3 were different from older ssj. in DBS, they have given so much options to Goku like seriously he has base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue. did you see that? how lazy fanservice it is?
in Z he uses either ssj or ssj2 most of the time since ssj3 had flaws.

PFM18 wrote:A slow pace is standard for this franchise. See any of the other anime series to come out of Dragon Ball.


no, the ToP is dragged for no reason. Battle Royale is supposed to happen quickly but in DBS its episodic mindless entertainment. like i am watching monster of the week program. "today's episode is about Goku beating him", "today's episode will be about #18 beating her", shit like this. it's like a contest among writers/animators for who writes the most coolest shit, ToP is just an arc about cool shit and no substance.

Toei reuses animation at least twice per episode. Characters talking about stuff the audience already knows takes up about half of each episode.

he teams are way bigger than necessary. Could have been 5 characters per team and not 10. There was no reason for them to force themselves to create over 60 new characters especially considering 80% of them were boring to watch in action. There were way more fights than needed and it left me bored out of my mind. Second, the scaling is shit. Yes this is important and in Z atleast the logic established made sense and we know that Roshi or Kuririn won't go on par with Cell or Boo. we don't see Goku in SS3 doing Kamehameha vs Kuririn.

Power in ToP means nothing and you are rarely ever given an indication of how strong anyone is so anyone could be matched up with anyone and the result would exactly the same.

This is connected to the problem I listed earlier as well; with 80 fucking participants in the tournament there was no way they could have managed to establish a hierarchy so you just sort of lose track of how strong everyone but the main characters are. It just leaves you asking "okay, what was the point" or "okay, how did that happen" every time anything happens. And since you already know Universe 7 is going to win in the end, it feels really empty. Friendship powerups are introduced instead of interesting ways to deal with the bad guy. Trunks, Vegeta, Goku - everyone gets oneNear the end of the ToP every episode is the same.

They punch Jiren and it doesn't work.

This is the focus of at least 7 episodes. No one gains an advantage, the tables don't turn, they don't change approaches. They just attack him the SAME way over and over. Bruh they spend a whole episode trying to fucking step on a bug. Goku Post-Z resorts to using Landmines in a fight irrespective of it being Tournament or not, lmao.


PFM18 wrote:
The animation was only inconsistent in the retellings. Since, the animation has consistently blown everything else Dragon Ball out of the water.


Super has better animation than Z but Z has better direction, sound design and tricks that make a bad looking fight enjoyable. Super is superior when it comes to animation but Z is a better show due to how smartly its handled. i would rather watch Z than DBS with its lazy designs.

PFM18 wrote:
I just disagree. The music is amazing.


as Animeajay also pointed out on Twitter, the music in Kai is scenes are directed from a fan viewpoint, rather than a narrative one. this is the same issue with DBS one, it doesn't have that Wuxia feeling anymore but just typical "Epic Anime Music" and totally lacking the identity that Kikuchi score had.

PFM18 wrote:
Yes, absolutely. All the filler, all the movies, and GT are all not part of the main anime continuity. That can be clearly seen. In the case of Super, there is no filler so everything is part of the continuity.


DBS itself isn't worth considering as a Part of community because of the bad decisions being taken like making Broli Canon again because he's famous.

Still haven't changed that avatar I see. :lol:


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