Can I just ignore Super's existence?

[ekrolo2]

That's VERY reductive. It's not the only reason. It's one, but it was definitely meant to have an impact on the show. And one thing that's getting lost in all this is that while SSJ was something of a recolor, it was the first. You guys seem to be forgetting the law of diminishing marginal returns. Every subsequent transformation, even if it's similar and a recolor like the very first one, means less and less.

If nerd culture subscribed to the law of diminishing returns, the vast, VAST majority of stuff partook in it would've died out years or even decades ago, not just DB.

I don't follow

My point is: nerd culture is all about the regurgitation of the same thing over and over again, even finding excuses for it, it shouldn't be a surprise when the DB fandom, a part of said culture, uses the "Well we were devaluing shit before so its okay now!" stance to defend even more regurgitation.

If nerd culture actually subscribed to the law of diminishing returns, everything from Superman to Star Wars would've been left behind to die ages ago.

[Ripper 30]

Um..litterally every transformation in Z is an asspull. And I never got why people were upset about Vegeta getting SSJBE because he was keeping a promise to a Saiyan he respected, but have no problem with Gohan sh**ting out SSJ2 because some random android he didn´t know gets killed.

Again, you are just misusing the word asspull, according to you every new thing is an asspull. Here's a thing, there was either build-up or Logical reasoning for every DBZ transformation, SS and SS2 were build-ups very well and SS3 was because of the 3-year training in Otherworld. Nice way to deflect DBS flaws on Z, here's a thing :
Gohan was a build-up to be this warrior with potential inside him, Goku saw a glimpse of it and that's why wanted Gohan to kill Cell and Cell also wanted to see it. You call it an asspull?
Your points don't make sense, Gohan didn't feel any emotional connection with #16 but his words were just enough to break the emotional shell he had of not wanting the killer instinct to come out. He never even mentioned #16's name after it which proves my point of him not giving two shit about him dying or not, it was just an emotional trigger. I mean if you can't even comprehend this basic stuff then you are better off sticking to your DBS Where Vegeta outta nowhere uses Cabba even though his bond wasn't even that strong like Goku had with Kuririn. He himself said in DBZ as well, that he doesn't have that kind of power to overcome his limits by remembering his loved ones otherwise he would have surpassed Goku by remembering Blooma and Trunks. What's this "kept promise to a Saiyan he respected" lol that's a nice one, he promised him that he will pull something out of his ass conveniently and surpass characters outta nowhere. Yes, this ain't Dragon Ball anymore but Fairy Tail.

While I do agree on your points of Gohan being built up to be strong, your points about #16 are objectively wrong. #16 causing Gohan to ¨Let it go¨ and go SSJ2, whether it be from his death or from his emotional speech, is stupid for the same reason. Gohan should have had that emotional trigger already from his friends and family literally being beaten to death, and not from a stranger who states the obvious. #16 reminding Gohan of stuff he already knows and having Gohan suddenly change his mind about it is just as dumb as Vegeta keeping his promise.

And on the topic of Vegeta, saying that he and cabba don't have a connection is not only outright wrong but also actively undermining Cabbas involvement in the story. It is clear that Vegeta cares about cabba. If he didn't he wouldn't have even considered using the Super Dragon Balls to bring him and the other Universe 6 Saiyans back. Vegeta throughout the series has grown from when he first appeared, he is a man of his word. He is gonna keep a promise to someone he really cares about, or at least try his best. This single moment expands his character much closer to where he is at the end of Z. And undercutting it by calling it an asspull is a blow to not only super but to Vegeta's character as a whole. It shows Vegeta´s desperate need for more power in order to defeat Jiren.

Again, everything isn't going to happen as the situations calls for it. The human emotions don't functions like machine, they are depend on certain factors. That's like saying goku not going Super Saiyan after seeing his son lying their with a broken neck when he arrived on Namek. It's not like any of Gohan's friends were killed or anything, him seeing his friends getting beaten isn't something new. He saw his friends getting beaten by saiyans, he say he friend Kuririn get beaten by Ginyu force guys or Freeza, etc. So it's a far fetched argument that his friends getting beaten is enough to let him transform. Infact, that WAS the point of that scene where he was wondering why isn't his power coming out after seeing his friends getting beaten and Cell for that very purpose asked Cell Jrs. To beat his friends. Again, your argument is like saying why Gohan didn't go ssj when he saw kuririn kill Piccolo and Kuririn. His friend weren't even beaten to death, definitely not as bad as they were after the Saiyan arc fight where no one can move. And this isn't some Naruto style Talk no Jutsu where the character who held same motive for decades changes after the protagonist talks to him, Gohan was just holding back his emotions and not letting them come out because he himself feared his powers. the important thing about 16's wasn't whom was saying it, but what was being said. 16 showed Gohan how bankrupt and flawed his behavior was being to his own goals and principles, he showed Gohan that there is nothing wrong about "taking up arms" when you're doing it for the right reasons. TFS actually did a great job of make much more clear in DBZA the actual meaning and reasoning behind 16's speech and Gohan's subsequently transforming than the original, since in the original all of that demanded interpretation because of their more subtle take to realise those things, it was much more in between the lines, while TFS made it much more clear. So no, I think that whole criticism is just plain stupidity or unwillingness to actually try to understand what was going on. Again, for for second time, Even if Mr. Satan had sad those words it would do the same trick because it wasn't about the person saying it but the words itself. Again, you are dragging this epic scene to the blasphemous scene of vegeta getting SSJBE by remembering his promise, that's bull crap. That's a retarded way to achieve the transformation, that's not how he used to do things in Z and there was hardly any bond. That's like saying Goku can achieve ssj god ssj3 by remembering his bond to monaka, Hit and Jiren. Again, that's just superficial bond given to Vegeta to give him new form. A promise can't make you transform into fucking new form lmao that's retarded. The SSJ transformations appear when NOT expected instead of when expected by user and this form was clearly for fanservice more than anything else. You're just giving it more credit than the writers give lol. This isn't not Fairy Tail, we don't have Nakama Power Up here, that's horrible writing. But then again, you think SS2 Gohan thing was achieved stupidly...

Still, it's not a LAZY RECOLOR. The lightning is there and hairstyle is different. I don't remember Raditz losing his eyebrows and having a different color eye. I mean you may see everything as same but all three transformations have differences, SS grade forms have spiky hair and buffed up body. Still way better than Ripping of Base and SS form and changing hair colors, as if a kid can't do it in MS Paint.

Although changing hair colors was not the best direction for the transformations, it's still a better direction than ¨Lets make the hair spikier and longer¨. At least the God transformations feel like new different transformations, rather than feeling like extensions of Super Saiyan. In all intents and purposes, SSJ 2 and 3 might as well be called SSJ Grade 5 and 6. Thats all they really are. Extensions of the Super Saiyan transformation. And while a pallet swap is bad, it's exponentially better than an extension of something we already had just based on the fact that its something new.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

Again, we never had different color changes in Original Run. Simple or not, atleast it wasn't color swapping. Super Saiyan God is like Kaioken Goku i dont have as much issues with it but Super Saiyan Blue is trash. I remember searching fan arts like way before Dbs and i saw this same form on those websites with different colors as well, that's very lazy. Again, in DBZ it was at least not swapping colors and even though very little but there was difference in hair style be it all Super Saiyan Grades or Super Saiyan two. Also, the differences you mentioned aren't as big as the ones between SS2 or SS form. So you think making the Hair more spiky with only one bang and electricity is lazy then swapping yellow color with blue? That's fanservice. Now the next form will be SSJ Blue SSJ3.
If anything Modern Dragon Ball is mocked more than Original Dragon Ball due to It different color changes and Power Ranger comparisons are made as well since they got a team of different Colors now.

Tell me any two differences between the hair style of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue.

Obviously Gohan was fighting at SS2 with Dabra but it was weaker than the version in Cell Games, fans just tend to over analyze it.

Um..litterally every transformation in Z is an asspull. And I never got why people were upset about Vegeta getting SSJBE because he was keeping a promise to a Saiyan he respected, but have no problem with Gohan sh**ting out SSJ2 because some random android he didn´t know gets killed.

Again, you are just misusing the word asspull, according to you every new thing is an asspull. Here's a thing, there was either build-up or Logical reasoning for every DBZ transformation, SS and SS2 were build-up very well and SS3 was because of the 3 year training in Otherworld. Nice way to deflect DBS flaws on Z, here's a thing :
Gohan was build-up to be this warrior with potential inside him, Goku saw a glimpse of it and that's why wanted Gohan to kill Cell and Cell also wanted to see it. You call it an asspull?
Your points don't make sense, Gohan didn't felt any emotional connection with #16 but his words were just enough to break the emotional shell he had of not wanting the killed instinct to come out. He never even mentioned #16's name after it which proves my point of him not giving two shit about him dying or not, it was just emotional trigger. I mean if you can't even comprehend this basic stuff then you are better off sticking to your DBS Where Vegeta outta nowhere uses Cabba even though his bond wasn't even that strong like Goku had with Kuririn. He himself said in DBZ as well, that he doesn't have that kind of power to overcame his limits by remembering his loved ones otherwise he would have surpassed Goku by remembering Blooma and Trunks. What's this "kept promise to a Saiyan he respected" lol that's a nice one, he promised him that he will pull something out of his ass conveniently and surpass characters outta nowhere. Yes, this ain't Dragon Ball anymore but Fairy Tail.

You can apply that logic to any other moment in the series and it would be exactly the same. The beam struggle between Gohan and Super Perfect Cell is empty and pointless because we know Gohan is gonna win. Goku spirit bomb struggle with Kid Buu is pointless because we know he´s gonna win. The threat of Namek exploding while Goku and Frieza fight is pointless because we know he is gonna win and somehow escape destruction. That is not a valid claim against super in any right.

Again, that's not how it worked in DBZ, right now you can say whatever you want to. When Cell Self Destructed himself no one expected him to return,This makes your argument moot. When Gohan was beating the shit outta Boo we all thought that Boo will die now. Before Cell appeared we all thought Goku and co. Will have a rematch against Androids after Goku recovers. Again, you are the one not making sense. What you're saying about Z is speculation whereas with ToP, it's placement is between Time Skip so we already know what's gonna happen. If it took place after Time Skip then atleast there would be some unpredictability. Nice deflection on Z again.

While I will absolutely agree that the designs of the new god forms are lazy, Take a moment to consider that after Super Saiyan most designs got ridiculous. SSJ2 is just super saiyan with lighting around it, and SSJ3 is just Super Saiyan Raditz. And I will applaud super for giving kaioken a use again, even if it was only for nostalgia fanservice.

Still, it's not a LAZY RECOLOR. The lightning is there and hairstyle is different. I don't remember raditz losing his eyebrows and having a different color eyes. I mean you may see everything as same but all three transformations have differences, SS grade forms have spiky hair and buffed up body. Still way better than Ripping of Base and SS form and changing hair colors, as if a kid can't do it in MS Paint.

Anything would sound uncompelling when you oversimplify them like that. Thats like me calling the cell saga ¨a big robot bug built to be evil¨ or the Buu saga ¨ a giant wad of bubble gum thats evil¨

Because that's exactly what happened, judging something based on two brainless creatures fighting is retarded. He might see two stray dogs fighting and call the mortals evil. Did he even took his sweet time to see two people with intellect fight or seeing Kid Boo/Freeza destroying stuff in Universe 7, atleast this way it would make sense instead of judging things by two Barbarians fighting and losing to a mortal then stealing his body instead of asking other very important questions to Zuno.

I'm pretty sure that Zamasu mentions seeing the same thing happening on other planets countless times prior to ever seeing the barbarian. It wasn't just because of the barbarians that he decided to start killing ningen. It was a combination of preexisting dislike of mortals, meeting goku and the barbarians. All these factors iust eventually pushed Zamasu over the edge. So you basically are oversimplifying what really happened in that arc.

No, him mentioning doesn't make it any less nonsensical than it already was. Again, they never explained why he disliked mortals from the start. in Z, they totally explained why Kaioshin disliked Boo by showing us his bachstory. What does Super do? There has to be reason for a character to hate humans other for the sake of it. Meeting Goku has to be the most retarded reasons to hate mortals, just because of losing to a retarded guy one cannot make the decision. Again, his development is rushed and laughably stupid, there is no need to oversimplify something so stupid. He iota is way too small and even if the hate was there from start then they should have shown why.

Although changing hair colors was not the best direction for the transformations, it's still a better direction than ¨Lets make the hair spikier and longer¨. At least the God transformations feel like new different transformations, rather than feeling like extensions of Super Saiyan. In all intents and purposes, SSJ 2 and 3 might as well be called SSJ Grade 5 and 6. Thats all they really are. Extensions of the Super Saiyan transformation. And while a pallet swap is bad, it's exponentially better than an extension of something we already had just based on the fact that its something new.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

Really? Has this new generation accepted mediocrity so much that they are willing to defend it by trashing the original Ssj design? One of the most iconic forms in the franchise,that became a staple moving forward? Yes, it is simple, but it doesn't need to be "complicated" to be cool as hell and different enough from the base form that nobody would ever confuse the two.

Ssj2 you might have a point, but goddamn if ssj2 gohan didn't look way cooler than any version of Gohan that came before. (It also played a huge part in the story, but hey, who cares right?) Designs don't need to be overcomplicated to have an impact. SSGSS or whatver you call it is literally a recolor, and it's impact on the narrative is almost non existent.

That's the problem dude. Ever since DBS has started, people deflect its flaws on Z to defend its horrible writing. In the original show, the transformations were more than just boost, it also resulted in different characterization and fitted Perfectly in the story and contributed greatly to narrative. Now in DBS, there is hardly anything special about these forms other than "hey he's stronger now". Goku after SSJ God is same as SSJ Blue and still the same after MUI. These forms literally have no substance other than flashy colors for the sake of fanservice.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed color a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a color change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a color change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colors"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is a massive difference more than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hairstyle with SS2 is Goku.

Really? Has this new generation accepted mediocrity so much that they are willing to defend it by trashing the original Ssj design? One of the most iconic forms in the franchise, that became a staple moving forward? Yes, it is simple, but it doesn't need to be "complicated" to be cool as hell and different enough from the base form that nobody would ever confuse the two.

Ssj2 you might have a point, but goddamn if ssj2 Gohan didn't look way cooler than any version of Gohan that came before. (It also played a huge part in the story, but hey, who cares right?) Designs don't need to be overcomplicated to have an impact. SSGSS or whatever you call it is literally a recolor, and its impact on the narrative is almost non-existent.

The fact that SSJ is iconic doesn't change the fact that its the same as SSJ Blue as just being a different color than base. And before you pull the "Well actually, its different because the hair is spikier so its completely different", that much of an insignificant change is laughable at best. The color change was kind of the only way to go unless they wanted to make the hair "Even longer and spikier". And although SSJ Blue might not have as much of an impact on the series, that not its point. And the orignal SSJ form wasnt meant to do that either, it was Toriyama making drawing Goku easier.

It's the other way round, Super Saiyan Blue is a cheap rip off of Super Saiyan. Again, the motive of Transformations in DBZ were supposed to be simple and it's their narrative value which made them iconic, not their hair colors. Why is SSJ Blue having impact on the show not the point? SSJ was build-up from start and was a rumour which haunted the villain and it even aided in filling Goku with absolute Rage and making him accept his heritage or SSJ2 turning Gohan into a Ruthless monster who pulled no punches and was ruthlessly punching Cell. All these God Forms are just there to make them stronger and sell toys, they hardly have any big impact. Can you tell me any one change in Goku's character after achieving Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct? In Original Toriyama put some substance into the forms. Now it's all fanservice with new colors and bigger powers.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Although changing hair colors was not the best direction for the transformations, it's still a better direction than ¨Lets make the hair spikier and longer¨. At least the God transformations feel like new different transformations, rather than feeling like extensions of Super Saiyan. In all intents and purposes, SSJ 2 and 3 might as well be called SSJ Grade 5 and 6. Thats all they really are. Extensions of the Super Saiyan transformation. And while a pallet swap is bad, it's exponentially better than an extension of something we already had just based on the fact that its something new.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

Really? Has this new generation accepted mediocrity so much that they are willing to defend it by trashing the original Ssj design? One of the most iconic forms in the franchise,that became a staple moving forward? Yes, it is simple, but it doesn't need to be "complicated" to be cool as hell and different enough from the base form that nobody would ever confuse the two.

Ssj2 you might have a point, but goddamn if ssj2 gohan didn't look way cooler than any version of Gohan that came before. (It also played a huge part in the story, but hey, who cares right?) Designs don't need to be overcomplicated to have an impact. SSGSS or whatver you call it is literally a recolor, and it's impact on the narrative is almost non existent.

SSj Blue is only a recolor if you ignore the god ritual, ignore god ki, ignore their training with whis, and ignore everything it took to get there. And based on that, you could call out SSJ as just a hair recolor if you ignore Vegeta mentioning it over and over, ignore Frieza being scared of it, ignore Krillin dying, and everything it took to get there too. But you won't do that. You won't call out Z. You've put it on too high of a pedestal. You see it as perfection, and can't stand it when someone calls it out. Thats what this is about,thats what this whole topic is about. Instead, you'd rather pretend like its perfection and hold Super up to a perfect standard and when you see that its not perfect, you try and bash on it. Take off the nastolgia glasses for a moment and see this shit for what it really is.

Tell me any two differences between the hairstyle of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue.

You idiot. You actual idiot. I have explained this shit 3 times. The reason Super Saiyan Blue looks like Super Saiyan is because it IS Super Saiyan. It's literally a super saiyan god going super saiyan. It's in the fucking name you brain-dead moron. No shit it looks like Super Saiyan, it is Super Saiyan

It's the other way round, Super Saiyan Blue is a cheap rip off of Super Saiyan. Again, the motive of Transformations in DBZ was supposed to be simple and it's their narrative value which made them iconic, not their hair colors. Why is SSJ Blue having impact on the show, not the point? SSJ was build-up from start and was a rumor which haunted the villain and it even aided in filling Goku with absolute Rage and making him accept his heritage or SSJ2 turning Gohan into a Ruthless monster who pulled no punches and was ruthlessly punching Cell. All these God Forms are just there to make them stronger and sell toys, they hardly have any big impact. Can you tell me anyone changes in Goku's character after achieving Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct? In Original Toriyama put some substance into the forms. Now it's all fanservice with new colors and bigger powers.

Why do you keep bringing this up? We are talking about the design, not its use it the narrative. Also, the Super Saiyan 5 meme's with the 14 feet hair existed long before the color meme was a thing. Tell me, what would you rather them do with the design?

[Nokra]

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

Really? Has this new generation accepted mediocrity so much that they are willing to defend it by trashing the original Ssj design? One of the most iconic forms in the franchise,that became a staple moving forward? Yes, it is simple, but it doesn't need to be "complicated" to be cool as hell and different enough from the base form that nobody would ever confuse the two.

Ssj2 you might have a point, but goddamn if ssj2 gohan didn't look way cooler than any version of Gohan that came before. (It also played a huge part in the story, but hey, who cares right?) Designs don't need to be overcomplicated to have an impact. SSGSS or whatver you call it is literally a recolor, and it's impact on the narrative is almost non existent.

SSj Blue is only a recolor if you ignore the god ritual, ignore god ki, ignore their training with whis, and ignore everything it took to get there. And based on that, you could call out SSJ as just a hair recolor if you ignore Vegeta mentioning it over and over, ignore Frieza being scared of it, ignore Krillin dying, and everything it took to get there too. But you won't do that. You won't call out Z. You've put it on too high of a pedestal. You see it as perfection, and can't stand it when someone calls it out. Thats what this is about,thats what this whole topic is about. Instead, you'd rather pretend like its perfection and hold Super up to a perfect standard and when you see that its not perfect, you try and bash on it. Take off the nastolgia glasses for a moment and see this shit for what it really is.

Tell me any two differences between the hairstyle of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue.

You idiot. You actual idiot. I have explained this shit 3 times. The reason Super Saiyan Blue looks like Super Saiyan is because it IS Super Saiyan. It's literally a super saiyan god going super saiyan. It's in the fucking name you brain-dead moron. No shit it looks like Super Saiyan, it is Super Saiyan

It's the other way round, Super Saiyan Blue is a cheap rip off of Super Saiyan. Again, the motive of Transformations in DBZ was supposed to be simple and it's their narrative value which made them iconic, not their hair colors. Why is SSJ Blue having impact on the show, not the point? SSJ was build-up from start and was a rumor which haunted the villain and it even aided in filling Goku with absolute Rage and making him accept his heritage or SSJ2 turning Gohan into a Ruthless monster who pulled no punches and was ruthlessly punching Cell. All these God Forms are just there to make them stronger and sell toys, they hardly have any big impact. Can you tell me anyone changes in Goku's character after achieving Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct? In Original Toriyama put some substance into the forms. Now it's all fanservice with new colors and bigger powers.

Why do you keep bringing this up? We are talking about the design, not its use it the narrative. Also, the Super Saiyan 5 meme's with the 14 feet hair existed long before the color meme was a thing. Tell me, what would you rather them do with the design?

You should probably stop arguing with this guy. He's clearly bias against dbs and no matter what great points you bring up he'll just shoot them down because he's clearly a dbz fanboy. I literally explained that Zamasu didn't just start hating mortals because of the babarians or Goku, but he shot it down anyway just because. Arguing with this guy is a waste of time and you'll just end up going in circles.

[AnimeNation101]

Yeah sure, but you cant get mad when you’re having a discussion and someone brings up Super as it is scene as a part of the main series continuity. And also accept that if you’re debating something and someone brings up Super, you cant just say “well i dont’t count Super” and expect that to automatically invalidate the person’s point.

[Grimlock]

Obviously Gohan was fighting at SS2 with Dabra but it was weaker than the version in Cell Games, fans just tend to over analyze it.

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan vs Cell/Super Saiyan 2 Cell, Super Saiyan 2 Goku vs Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs Buu and Gohan displays his Super Saiyan 2 to Kibito... All those occasions had lightnings. Why would Toriyama exclude them if Gohan was using Super Saiyan 2 during his fight against Dabura?

I mean, I know lightnings are not the first thing to notice when talking about the differences about Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, but since people can't get Gohan's hairstyle correct, then the lightnings play a very important role in this case. Yes, Gohan had his Super Saiyan 2 hairstyle but no lightnings whatsoever during the entire fight, and this is something we know Toriyama did not used to forget.

So I don't know if you really could say "obviously" when there are facts for both points of view.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

You should probably stop arguing with this guy. He's clearly biased against DBS and no matter what great points you bring up he'll just shoot them down because he's clearly a dbz fanboy. I literally explained that Zamasu didn't just start hating mortals because of the barbarians or Goku, but he shot it down anyway just because. Arguing with this guy is a waste of time and you'll just end up going in circles.

I know. I have explained this stuff so many times. It's like trying to teach a turtle to hunt, its never gonna happen. He's just another Dragon Ball Fantard.

[Gaffer Tape]

It's a very "interesting" debate tactic to try to take the high ground immediately after resorting to ad hominem attacks in your posts, especially when said argument boils down to, "You don't agree with me; therefore, you are an elitist/hater/fanboy." This is not the kind of thing I like to see in my favorite forum.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Although changing hair colors was not the best direction for the transformations, it's still a better direction than ¨Lets make the hair spikier and longer¨. At least the God transformations feel like new different transformations, rather than feeling like extensions of Super Saiyan. In all intents and purposes, SSJ 2 and 3 might as well be called SSJ Grade 5 and 6. Thats all they really are. Extensions of the Super Saiyan transformation. And while a pallet swap is bad, it's exponentially better than an extension of something we already had just based on the fact that its something new.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

Really? Has this new generation accepted mediocrity so much that they are willing to defend it by trashing the original Ssj design? One of the most iconic forms in the franchise,that became a staple moving forward? Yes, it is simple, but it doesn't need to be "complicated" to be cool as hell and different enough from the base form that nobody would ever confuse the two.

Ssj2 you might have a point, but goddamn if ssj2 gohan didn't look way cooler than any version of Gohan that came before. (It also played a huge part in the story, but hey, who cares right?) Designs don't need to be overcomplicated to have an impact. SSGSS or whatver you call it is literally a recolor, and it's impact on the narrative is almost non existent.

Well if you read my post I said it is supposed be a recolour it is the whole point of the form, it is in the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan- "a Saiyan with the power of a SSG as a SS" how is it supposed to not resemble SS?

"Iconic" doesn't mean it can't be disliked or criticised, besides it lost itself literally the arc after, where every Saiyan got the SS form and none of them went through the shit Goku did to obtain the form. Every time a character got a new form after Goku on Namek (until UI) it didn't have that same impact it was just "oh look another form, oh look x character joined the SS club!" SS3 was literally only for a plot point to get Goku to leave Earth, speaking of the Buu arc Goku and Vegeta go into SS2 like it was literally nothing! The form that everyone struggled to obtain the previous arc, get it off page no problem. SS forms were just a gimmick that helped Toriyama's inker, the sole reason for it's existence.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Well if you read my post I said it is supposed to be a recolor it is the whole point of the form, it is in the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan- "a Saiyan with the power of an SSG as an SS" how is it supposed to not resemble SS?

Thats what I've been saying. These people just don't listen.

It's a very "interesting" debate tactic to try to take the high ground immediately after resorting to ad hominem attacks in your posts, especially when said argument boils down to, "You don't agree with me; therefore, you are an elitist/hater/fanboy." This is not the kind of thing I like to see in my favorite forum.

It's not just because he doesn't agree. He refuses to accept super because he puts Z on such a high pedestal. I talk more about this in my post, you should go read it.

[Skar]

Why do you keep bringing this up? We are talking about the design, not its use it the narrative. Also, the Super Saiyan 5 meme's with the 14 feet hair existed long before the color meme was a thing. Tell me, what would you rather them do with the design?

To be fair, recolored transformations have been common since the early to mid-2000's. I've come across several on Deviantart and the DB fanon wiki well before RoF. They've usually been ridiculed as lazy and unoriginal and DBS has been the first time I've seen anyone in the fanbase argue in favor of them. Personally, I don't like recolored transformations or crazy ones like SSJ5 and think the series has had enough already. If I had a choice, I would've preferred they retain the power of SSJG in base and train from there without any new transformations. That's just my opinion. I don't feel fans should be obligated to like SSJB just because it's now appearing in the official series especially if it's something they've never liked before.

[VegettoEX]

The user in question has been removed; no need to further address their points. Thanks.

[HeroR]

Still, it's not a LAZY RECOLOR. The lightning is there and hairstyle is different. I don't remember Raditz losing his eyebrows and having a different color eye. I mean you may see everything as same but all three transformations have differences, SS grade forms have spiky hair and buffed up body. Still way better than Ripping of Base and SS form and changing hair colors, as if a kid can't do it in MS Paint.

Although changing hair colors was not the best direction for the transformations, it's still a better direction than ¨Lets make the hair spikier and longer¨. At least the God transformations feel like new different transformations, rather than feeling like extensions of Super Saiyan. In all intents and purposes, SSJ 2 and 3 might as well be called SSJ Grade 5 and 6. Thats all they really are. Extensions of the Super Saiyan transformation. And while a pallet swap is bad, it's exponentially better than an extension of something we already had just based on the fact that its something new.

The word lazy is thrown around so much around the community. SS was literally Goku's hair spiked up and changed colour a lot more simple than Oozaru so surely people should be citing that SS lazy as well then right?
SSG was more than just a colour change, it refined base Goku. He got skinner, his hair lost those loose strands and he had a more pronounced front bang. SSGSS does what it says on the tin it's supposed to resemble SS, a colour change is a massive difference much more than lighting sparks.

The commercial success of the modern forms especially in SSGSS and UI speak for themselves really (and the majority of modern DB merchandise is aimed at the teenage/adult demographic so people can't even use the excuse of "kids like bright colours"), hell SSGSS still is the main mascot form of modern DB. Colour is massive difference moreso than something crazy like SS3 with all that wild hair yet that form remains unpopular & barely used in modern DB. It's also why SS4 Gogeta remains the most popular thing out of GT because it's a red SS4.

I also agree about SS2 for example we had years and years of debates whether or not Gohan was SS2 vs Dabura etc Whereas between SS-SSG-SSGSS-UI everyone knows what is up each form has a distinct difference that's why I think they decided to ditch SS2&3 for the movie (hopefully it's a permanent ditch) as the only Saiyan that has consistency in hair style with SS2 is Goku.

I wouldn't call Super Saiyan 3 unpopular since Heroes gave everyone and their mother that form and it is its own Category in Dokkan Battle with a bunch fo Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Bardock, and Gotenks. The most unpopular Super Saiyan form seems to be Super Saiyan 2 outside of Gohan.