So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?

[ABED]

Freeza did it with ease in his first form. Beerus is lazy, but telling Freeza to do it took more time and effort than doing it himself. There's no justification for changing this history.

[BlueBasilisk]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

[Kunzait_83]

I think Toriyama crossed the line with Minus well into Lucas territory. Not only did he get rid of a lot of what makes Goku great as a character for an ill conceived attempt to flesh out his backstory but heavily diminished the Saiyan arc by extension.

Goku's character, completely ignoring the Bardock special, was two things: a worthless cast off who nobody cared about (even Bardock in the special only does as a means to get revenge on Freeza) who was deemed trash from birth and sent off to destroy the planet Earth. Then, thanks to lots of lucky breaks and his own actions along with the people around him, Goku helps save the planet and people he was supposed to destroy. Goku of course doesn't fight to save the planet, that's never his main goal, he wants to test himself by fighting greater opponents but it is something he accomplishes nonetheless as a byproduct OF beating the strong opponents he's currently facing.

Through all this, he proves the Saiyan society wrong for thinking of him as worthless trash by training with great martial arts masters and proceeding to beat the crap out of Prince Vegeta, the representation of that elitist society. Now, once again, Goku doesn't fight Vegeta to prove this point but much like how he saves the world as a happy byproduct, he too proves Vegeta and all the Saiyans wrong. He becomes way better than absolutely all of them.

Now, thanks to Minus, the irony of saving the planet and people he was supposed to destroy? Gone, his status as a worthless cast off nobody cared about? Gone. Goku is now the special love child of a unique Saiyan relationship unlike any other with loving parents who love him and suck each others dicks off because they're oh so special and in love. That is so, so, SO much less interesting and really takes the wind out of Goku's sails which coupled with his horrendous characterization in Super has done quite a lot to damage the character and I absolutely blame Toriyama for this.

The cherry on this shit sunday is nuBroly getting several traits of Goku's old backstory because Goku being turned into a considerably shitier character is totally warranted so Broly of all people can be marginally less shit.

I wholeheartedly agree with every single line of this post, and co-sign on all of it 1000% and then some. Minus is garbage and it DOES do damage to both the original manga storyline AND the Bardock special. It diminishes Goku's core characterization and overall arc, it diminishes the Saiya-jin as a concept, and it diminishes Bardock. Its an out and out dumpster fire of a storyline on every conceivable level that adds nothing of value and indeed DETRACTS from the original series, and I genuinely question the judgement and critical thinking abilities of those who go out of their way to defend it as anything other than fanfiction.net caliber material (as if simply giving a name and a face to Goku's mom is in ANY way worth all this other nonsense).

My only contention to ANY of this remotely is that I would put Minus on the relative Lucas-esque level of the Star Wars Prequels: a shitty prelude to the original classic. And while the SW prequels were indeed utter garbage themselves for the most part, I hardly think of them as the single worst thing Lucas has ever done to the SW series: that to me is unquestionably the whole phasing out any purchasability of the original versions of the original trilogy in favor of the DRAMATICALLY altered (and indeed, increasingly so over time) Special Editions.

Making a bad sequel or prequel to a classic work is one thing: going out of one's way to make that classic work as unavailable to the general public as possible and putting in its place a HEAVILY downgraded and compromised altered version of it is a WHOLE different level of insanity, and one that is overall VERY unique to Lucas (and a select few others who've attempted similar stunts).

Dragon Ball Minus is a travesty of a prequel prelude to DB: Super is a milquetoast, lackluster sequel/revival of it. Both of those would utterly PALE if Toriyama did something like go back and RADICALLY rejigger the original manga from nearly top to bottom (extra bonus points if he did it in an effort to conform to things done with Minus and Super) and have all original printings of the manga summarily yanked out of print and have the new, heavily altered version be the ONLY version legally available forevermore for decades and decades after.

THAT to me would be some George Lucas-level shit. Minus as it is, is just bad on its own terms, and immensely more so if you seriously wanted to incorporate it as part of the original series canon. As it currently stands, the only "canon" of anything its going to be impacting going forward is Super: and Super to me is basically just this generation's Dragon Ball GT: an anime-centric fork in the road of the original series' ending with minimal involvement from Toriyama (which may or may not be a good thing, in light of Minus).

The issue with Super (and Minus' impact on it) is really the fact that the current fanbase is VERY taken with the idea of accepting Super as part of the "mainstream/classic" Dragon Ball "canon" (such as it is) primarily because A) its new, and the overall anime fanbase of the past 15/20 years now is positively OBSESSED with the anything at all relating to the notion of "what's newest and most current RIGHT NOW this very second" (and the DB fandom of that same timeframe is weirdly fixated on the series continuing on in perpetuity forever and ever without end, Marvel/DC style), and B) the current fanbase has this VASTLY over-inflated idea as to the precise level of Toriyama's overall impact on and involvement with Super.

This ultimately ties into that other "Can I just ignore Super?" thread: yes, as of right now at least, of course you can. Because Super is basically just a 20 years after the fact revival of a long-finished and completed series with minimal involvement of the original creator. The most direct thing out of the original creator's pen in recent years is mainly Minus: which yeah, I would also say is VERY much worth also ignoring, as it offers NOTHING of value or worth to the original series, and certainly detracts PLENTY from it.

If heaven forbid we arrive at a bleak era when the original 42 volume tankobon and original DB/Z anime are all but totally erased from print/availability, and its only some RADICALLY revised rendition (made retroactively in light of and in reflection of Super and Minus) that's out there and that's acting as the "main face" of the series to the general public... then yeah. Toriyama-as-Lucas all the way.

[WittyUsername]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

But isn’t Whis the one who transports Beerus from place to place?

[BlueBasilisk]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

But isn’t Whis the one who transports Beerus from place to place?

Yes, and Beerus was complaining about a 30 minute trip to King Kai's planet in Battle of Gods to hunt for the SSG.

[Gaffer Tape]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

In Battle of Gods, we're shown he apparently visited King Vegeta personally (which, similar to him ordering Freeza around, is another insanely ridiculous piece of plotting that had no business being written), so not only can he be bothered to go all that way, he was already there!

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Apart from undermining Freeza’s role in wiping out the Saiyan race, the most confusing thing about that retcon is that it makes you wonder why Beerus couldn’t just destroy Planet Vegeta himself. I get that Beerus is lazy, but his entire thing is that he destroys planets for a living, and is able to do so with no effort whatsoever, so if he wanted the Saiyans gone, why did he need to get Freeza to do it for him?

I think you answered your own question. He is lazy. It has been shown time and time again how Beerus and Shin are terrible at thier jobs, so you´d think this would not be a question.

But again, Beerus has already been established as the kind of person who destroys planets on a regular basis, and doing so requires virtually no effort on his part. It’s not like destroying Planet Vegeta would be any more of a time consuming task for him than telling Freeza to destroy it.

From his point of view he is wasting time destroying a planet when he could be eating or sleeping. Why do it yourself when you can get someone else to do it for you.

[ekrolo2]

I think Toriyama crossed the line with Minus well into Lucas territory. Not only did he get rid of a lot of what makes Goku great as a character for an ill conceived attempt to flesh out his backstory but heavily diminished the Saiyan arc by extension.

Goku's character, completely ignoring the Bardock special, was two things: a worthless cast off who nobody cared about (even Bardock in the special only does as a means to get revenge on Freeza) who was deemed trash from birth and sent off to destroy the planet Earth. Then, thanks to lots of lucky breaks and his own actions along with the people around him, Goku helps save the planet and people he was supposed to destroy. Goku of course doesn't fight to save the planet, that's never his main goal, he wants to test himself by fighting greater opponents but it is something he accomplishes nonetheless as a byproduct OF beating the strong opponents he's currently facing.

Through all this, he proves the Saiyan society wrong for thinking of him as worthless trash by training with great martial arts masters and proceeding to beat the crap out of Prince Vegeta, the representation of that elitist society. Now, once again, Goku doesn't fight Vegeta to prove this point but much like how he saves the world as a happy byproduct, he too proves Vegeta and all the Saiyans wrong. He becomes way better than absolutely all of them.

Now, thanks to Minus, the irony of saving the planet and people he was supposed to destroy? Gone, his status as a worthless cast off nobody cared about? Gone. Goku is now the special love child of a unique Saiyan relationship unlike any other with loving parents who love him and suck each others dicks off because they're oh so special and in love. That is so, so, SO much less interesting and really takes the wind out of Goku's sails which coupled with his horrendous characterization in Super has done quite a lot to damage the character and I absolutely blame Toriyama for this.

The cherry on this shit sunday is nuBroly getting several traits of Goku's old backstory because Goku being turned into a considerably shitier character is totally warranted so Broly of all people can be marginally less shit.

I wholeheartedly agree with every single line of this post, and co-sign on all of it 1000% and then some. Minus is garbage and it DOES do damage to both the original manga storyline AND the Bardock special. It diminishes Goku's core characterization and overall arc, it diminishes the Saiya-jin as a concept, and it diminishes Bardock. Its an out and out dumpster fire of a storyline on every conceivable level that adds nothing of value and indeed DETRACTS from the original series, and I genuinely question the judgement and critical thinking abilities of those who go out of their way to defend it as anything other than fanfiction.net caliber material (as if simply giving a name and a face to Goku's mom is in ANY way worth all this other nonsense).

My only contention to ANY of this remotely is that I would put Minus on the relative Lucas-esque level of the Star Wars Prequels: a shitty prelude to the original classic. And while the SW prequels were indeed utter garbage themselves for the most part, I hardly think of them as the single worst thing Lucas has ever done to the SW series: that to me is unquestionably the whole phasing out any purchasability of the original versions of the original trilogy in favor of the DRAMATICALLY altered (and indeed, increasingly so over time) Special Editions.

Making a bad sequel or prequel to a classic work is one thing: going out of one's way to make that classic work as unavailable to the general public as possible and putting in its place a HEAVILY downgraded and compromised altered version of it is a WHOLE different level of insanity, and one that is overall VERY unique to Lucas (and a select few others who've attempted similar stunts).

Dragon Ball Minus is a travesty of a prequel prelude to DB: Super is a milquetoast, lackluster sequel/revival of it. Both of those would utterly PALE if Toriyama did something like go back and RADICALLY rejigger the original manga from nearly top to bottom (extra bonus points if he did it in an effort to conform to things done with Minus and Super) and have all original printings of the manga summarily yanked out of print and have the new, heavily altered version be the ONLY version legally available forevermore for decades and decades after.

THAT to me would be some George Lucas-level shit. Minus as it is, is just bad on its own terms, and immensely more so if you seriously wanted to incorporate it as part of the original series canon. As it currently stands, the only "canon" of anything its going to be impacting going forward is Super: and Super to me is basically just this generation's Dragon Ball GT: an anime-centric fork in the road of the original series' ending with minimal involvement from Toriyama (which may or may not be a good thing, in light of Minus).

The issue with Super (and Minus' impact on it) is really the fact that the current fanbase is VERY taken with the idea of accepting Super as part of the "mainstream/classic" Dragon Ball "canon" (such as it is) primarily because A) its new, and the overall anime fanbase of the past 15/20 years now is positively OBSESSED with the anything at all relating to the notion of "what's newest and most current RIGHT NOW this very second" (and the DB fandom of that same timeframe is weirdly fixated on the series continuing on in perpetuity forever and ever without end, Marvel/DC style), and B) the current fanbase has this VASTLY over-inflated idea as to the precise level of Toriyama's overall impact on and involvement with Super.

This ultimately ties into that other "Can I just ignore Super?" thread: yes, as of right now at least, of course you can. Because Super is basically just a 20 years after the fact revival of a long-finished and completed series with minimal involvement of the original creator. The most direct thing out of the original creator's pen in recent years is mainly Minus: which yeah, I would also say is VERY much worth also ignoring, as it offers NOTHING of value or worth to the original series, and certainly detracts PLENTY from it.

If heaven forbid we arrive at a bleak era when the original 42 volume tankobon and original DB/Z anime are all but totally erased from print/availability, and its only some RADICALLY revised rendition (made retroactively in light of and in reflection of Super and Minus) that's out there and that's acting as the "main face" of the series to the general public... then yeah. Toriyama-as-Lucas all the way.

At this poing its a crap shoot whether or not Toriyama will go back and edit more things out for a potential re-release such as removing everything implying the Bardock special out or changing how Freeza looks when he destroys Planet Vegeta just to conform with his new "definitive" Saiyan backstory. I sort of lean towards it happening but that could just be general cynicism coloring my better judgment. I'm so used to crap story decisions it wouldn't surprise me if Bardock's rebellion is cut out so he and Gine can come to Earth at a later point.

[BlueBasilisk]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

In Battle of Gods, we're shown he apparently visited King Vegeta personally (which, similar to him ordering Freeza around, is another insanely ridiculous piece of plotting that had no business being written), so not only can he be bothered to go all that way, he was already there!

He mentions his disdain for King Vegeta when he complains about how far away it is. Presumably he was talking about that same meeting. The fact that he went there before doesn't mean he can't feel like it's not worth his time to make the trip again when he has someone who'd gladly do the job for him.

[WittyUsername]

Beerus told Frieza to destroy Vegeta because of the distance. It was far away and he didn't want to be bothered going all the way over to do it himself.

In Battle of Gods, we're shown he apparently visited King Vegeta personally (which, similar to him ordering Freeza around, is another insanely ridiculous piece of plotting that had no business being written), so not only can he be bothered to go all that way, he was already there!

He mentions his disdain for King Vegeta when he complains about how far away it is. Presumably he was talking about that same meeting. The fact that he went there before doesn't mean he can't feel like it's not worth his time to make the trip again when he has someone who'd gladly do the job for him.

But why didn’t he do it back when he was already on Planet Vegeta? If him visiting King Vegeta that day was the catalyst for him wanting the planet to be destroyed, why didn’t he just destroy the planet right there? It’s already been established that Beerus isn’t the type of God who thinks things over, so this idea that he would wait to tell Freeza to destroy the planet just seems really bizarre.

[BlueBasilisk]

But why didn’t he do it back when he was already on Planet Vegeta? If him visiting King Vegeta that day was the catalyst for him wanting the planet to be destroyed, why didn’t he just destroy the planet right there? It’s already been established that Beerus isn’t the type of God who thinks things over, so this idea that he would wait to tell Freeza to destroy the planet just seems really bizarre.

That's a good question. In the movie they don't say what his business with Vegeta was, only that the king held a feast for him and Beerus didn't care for his attitude. In the anime he ordered Vegeta to get him the most comfortable pillow and he was there to punish Vegeta giving him #2. He says something about the Saiyans never changing no matter how much time passed so it sounds like he might have given them a grace period to placate him and they didn't. He didn't like Frieza either but never got around to destroying him.

[SmugStick]

It makes more sense for a three year old with armor to be send to a planet than a naked baby. This is one change I am very much behind.

[Mewzard]

Toriyama is worse than GL. Lucas at least came up with new ideas

No, George Lucas is infinitely worse, because you can't even get the original versions of Star Wars (Not A New Hope, Star Wars), Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi.

Nothing Toriyama has done even comes close to that (adding the Prequel Trilogy on top, there's nothing Toriyama could do in another 30 years that could bring the franchise down that bad).

Also yeah, he's three, that's barely passed the baby stage at all.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

But why didn’t he do it back when he was already on Planet Vegeta? If him visiting King Vegeta that day was the catalyst for him wanting the planet to be destroyed, why didn’t he just destroy the planet right there? It’s already been established that Beerus isn’t the type of God who thinks things over, so this idea that he would wait to tell Freeza to destroy the planet just seems really bizarre.

That's a good question. In the movie they don't say what his business with Vegeta was, only that the king held a feast for him and Beerus didn't care for his attitude. In the anime he ordered Vegeta to get him the most comfortable pillow and he was there to punish Vegeta giving him #2. He says something about the Saiyans never changing no matter how much time passed so it sounds like he might have given them a grace period to placate him and they didn't. He didn't like Frieza either but never got around to destroying him.

Don't forget the way the Saiyans operate not all of them would have been on the planet, if Beerus destroyed the planet then many of them could still be alive across the Universe rather than a select few. Instead he can go home and mull over it and then give Freeza the task of rounding them all up and destroying them.

[BlueBasilisk]

Don't forget the way the Saiyans operate not all of them would have been on the planet, if Beerus destroyed the plant then many of them could still be alive across the Universe rather than a select few. Instead he can go home and mull over it and then give Freeza the task of rounding them all up and destroying them.

Good point. That completely slipped my mind. Minus even says it's highly unusual for everyone to be back like that and it's one of the things that raises Bardock's suspicions.

[ABED]

Don't forget the way the Saiyans operate not all of them would have been on the planet, if Beerus destroyed the plant then many of them could still be alive across the Universe rather than a select few. Instead he can go home and mull over it and then give Freeza the task of rounding them all up and destroying them.

Good point. That completely slipped my mind. Minus even says it's highly unusual for everyone to be back like that and it's one of the things that raises Bardock's suspicions.

None of this requires Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

I hate when writers try to connect things like this.

[BlueBasilisk]

Don't forget the way the Saiyans operate not all of them would have been on the planet, if Beerus destroyed the plant then many of them could still be alive across the Universe rather than a select few. Instead he can go home and mull over it and then give Freeza the task of rounding them all up and destroying them.

Good point. That completely slipped my mind. Minus even says it's highly unusual for everyone to be back like that and it's one of the things that raises Bardock's suspicions.

None of this requires Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

I hate when writers try to connect things like this.

You're right, it doesn't, but that's just something Toriyama does. He staples new characters in and links them older events with greater or lesser degrees of success. I think Buu might be the exception to that. The same thing happened with Frieza. He didn't appear until 200+ chapters into the story and everything up to that point worked just fine without him. Frieza didn't need to destroy Vegeta or kill Goku's father or any of that. We already had serviceable explanations for all of that, but he was retroactvely made the instigator of all of the things and much of the series to increase the personal stakes.

[ABED]

Good point. That completely slipped my mind. Minus even says it's highly unusual for everyone to be back like that and it's one of the things that raises Bardock's suspicions.

None of this requires Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

I hate when writers try to connect things like this.

You're right, it doesn't, but that's just something Toriyama does. He staples new characters in and links them older events with greater or lesser degrees of success. I think Buu might be the exception to that. The same thing happened with Frieza. He didn't appear until 200+ chapters into the story and everything up to that point worked just fine without him. Frieza didn't need to destroy Vegeta or kill Goku's father or any of that. We already had serviceable explanations for all of that, but he was retroactvely made the instigator of all of the things and much of the series to increase the personal stakes.

I think there's a world of difference from Freeza being the one to destroy Planet Vegeta which can easily come across as a reveal more than an outright retcon, vs. acting on someone else's orders. One creates an interesting motivation for several characters, this takes away so much. Instead of Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta because he's afraid of his subordinates rising up, he's afraid of someone much stronger than him. This new thing doesn't shed light on any event. The old explanation went from an inanimate object destroying a race that could destroy planets to an even bigger bad destroying them.

Freeza wasn't the instigator of all things. Your point isn't remotely the same issue I'm talking about. Goku's backstory was wide open, so having some big bad calling all the shots was a good answer to the question. After that, the question of Goku's backstory was answered. Making Beerus the man behind the man behind the man doesn't add anything to the question that had already been satisfactorily answered.

[ekrolo2]

None of this requires Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

I hate when writers try to connect things like this.

You're right, it doesn't, but that's just something Toriyama does. He staples new characters in and links them older events with greater or lesser degrees of success. I think Buu might be the exception to that. The same thing happened with Frieza. He didn't appear until 200+ chapters into the story and everything up to that point worked just fine without him. Frieza didn't need to destroy Vegeta or kill Goku's father or any of that. We already had serviceable explanations for all of that, but he was retroactvely made the instigator of all of the things and much of the series to increase the personal stakes.

I think there's a world of difference from Freeza being the one to destroy Planet Vegeta which can easily come across as a reveal more than an outright retcon, vs. acting on someone else's orders. One creates an interesting motivation for several characters, this takes away so much. Instead of Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta because he's afraid of his subordinates rising up, he's afraid of someone much stronger than him. This new thing doesn't shed light on any event. The old explanation went from an inanimate object destroying a race that could destroy planets to an even bigger bad destroying them.

Freeza wasn't the instigator of all things. Your point isn't remotely the same issue I'm talking about. Goku's backstory was wide open, so having some big bad calling all the shots was a good answer to the question. After that, the question of Goku's backstory was answered. Making Beerus the man behind the man behind the man doesn't add anything to the question that had already been satisfactorily answered.

And the one way you could maybe get something out of Beerus' involvement with planet Vegeta being destroyed, having Vegeta find out about this and butt heads with Beerus at a point he can stand up to him, has been consistently ignored.

[8000 Saiyan]

Apparently, yes, since Minus is now canon to Super, which is meant to be a continuation of Z.

And it was his parents who sent him there. Kinda like how Superman's parents sent him to Earth so that he could live.

Toriyama should have kept his paws from writing Minus. Minus absolutely craps on the manga and Bardock's character.