So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?

[Doctor.]

I think Toriyama crossed the line with Minus well into Lucas territory. Not only did he get rid of a lot of what makes Goku great as a character for an ill conceived attempt to flesh out his backstory but heavily diminished the Saiyan arc by extension.

Goku's character, completely ignoring the Bardock special, was two things: a worthless cast off who nobody cared about (even Bardock in the special only does as a means to get revenge on Freeza) who was deemed trash from birth and sent off to destroy the planet Earth. Then, thanks to lots of lucky breaks and his own actions along with the people around him, Goku helps save the planet and people he was supposed to destroy. Goku of course doesn't fight to save the planet, that's never his main goal, he wants to test himself by fighting greater opponents but it is something he accomplishes nonetheless as a byproduct OF beating the strong opponents he's currently facing.

Through all this, he proves the Saiyan society wrong for thinking of him as worthless trash by training with great martial arts masters and proceeding to beat the crap out of Prince Vegeta, the representation of that elitist society. Now, once again, Goku doesn't fight Vegeta to prove this point but much like how he saves the world as a happy byproduct, he too proves Vegeta and all the Saiyans wrong. He becomes way better than absolutely all of them.

Now, thanks to Minus, the irony of saving the planet and people he was supposed to destroy? Gone, his status as a worthless cast off nobody cared about? Gone. Goku is now the special love child of a unique Saiyan relationship unlike any other with loving parents who love him and suck each others dicks off because they're oh so special and in love. That is so, so, SO much less interesting and really takes the wind out of Goku's sails which coupled with his horrendous characterization in Super has done quite a lot to damage the character and I absolutely blame Toriyama for this.

The cherry on this shit sunday is nuBroly getting several traits of Goku's old backstory because Goku being turned into a considerably shitier character is totally warranted so Broly of all people can be marginally less shit.

I wholeheartedly agree with every single line of this post, and co-sign on all of it 1000% and then some. Minus is garbage and it DOES do damage to both the original manga storyline AND the Bardock special. It diminishes Goku's core characterization and overall arc, it diminishes the Saiya-jin as a concept, and it diminishes Bardock. Its an out and out dumpster fire of a storyline on every conceivable level that adds nothing of value and indeed DETRACTS from the original series, and I genuinely question the judgement and critical thinking abilities of those who go out of their way to defend it as anything other than fanfiction.net caliber material (as if simply giving a name and a face to Goku's mom is in ANY way worth all this other nonsense).

My only contention to ANY of this remotely is that I would put Minus on the relative Lucas-esque level of the Star Wars Prequels: a shitty prelude to the original classic. And while the SW prequels were indeed utter garbage themselves for the most part, I hardly think of them as the single worst thing Lucas has ever done to the SW series: that to me is unquestionably the whole phasing out any purchasability of the original versions of the original trilogy in favor of the DRAMATICALLY altered (and indeed, increasingly so over time) Special Editions.

Making a bad sequel or prequel to a classic work is one thing: going out of one's way to make that classic work as unavailable to the general public as possible and putting in its place a HEAVILY downgraded and compromised altered version of it is a WHOLE different level of insanity, and one that is overall VERY unique to Lucas (and a select few others who've attempted similar stunts).

Dragon Ball Minus is a travesty of a prequel prelude to DB: Super is a milquetoast, lackluster sequel/revival of it. Both of those would utterly PALE if Toriyama did something like go back and RADICALLY rejigger the original manga from nearly top to bottom (extra bonus points if he did it in an effort to conform to things done with Minus and Super) and have all original printings of the manga summarily yanked out of print and have the new, heavily altered version be the ONLY version legally available forevermore for decades and decades after.

THAT to me would be some George Lucas-level shit. Minus as it is, is just bad on its own terms, and immensely more so if you seriously wanted to incorporate it as part of the original series canon. As it currently stands, the only "canon" of anything its going to be impacting going forward is Super: and Super to me is basically just this generation's Dragon Ball GT: an anime-centric fork in the road of the original series' ending with minimal involvement from Toriyama (which may or may not be a good thing, in light of Minus).

The issue with Super (and Minus' impact on it) is really the fact that the current fanbase is VERY taken with the idea of accepting Super as part of the "mainstream/classic" Dragon Ball "canon" (such as it is) primarily because A) its new, and the overall anime fanbase of the past 15/20 years now is positively OBSESSED with the anything at all relating to the notion of "what's newest and most current RIGHT NOW this very second" (and the DB fandom of that same timeframe is weirdly fixated on the series continuing on in perpetuity forever and ever without end, Marvel/DC style), and B) the current fanbase has this VASTLY over-inflated idea as to the precise level of Toriyama's overall impact on and involvement with Super.

This ultimately ties into that other "Can I just ignore Super?" thread: yes, as of right now at least, of course you can. Because Super is basically just a 20 years after the fact revival of a long-finished and completed series with minimal involvement of the original creator. The most direct thing out of the original creator's pen in recent years is mainly Minus: which yeah, I would also say is VERY much worth also ignoring, as it offers NOTHING of value or worth to the original series, and certainly detracts PLENTY from it.

If heaven forbid we arrive at a bleak era when the original 42 volume tankobon and original DB/Z anime are all but totally erased from print/availability, and its only some RADICALLY revised rendition (made retroactively in light of and in reflection of Super and Minus) that's out there and that's acting as the "main face" of the series to the general public... then yeah. Toriyama-as-Lucas all the way.

At this poing its a crap shoot whether or not Toriyama will go back and edit more things out for a potential re-release such as removing everything implying the Bardock special out or changing how Freeza looks when he destroys Planet Vegeta just to conform with his new "definitive" Saiyan backstory. I sort of lean towards it happening but that could just be general cynicism coloring my better judgment. I'm so used to crap story decisions it wouldn't surprise me if Bardock's rebellion is cut out so he and Gine can come to Earth at a later point.

Considering how big of a SW fan Toriyama is, he surely knows of the backlash Lucas has got? Maybe he does and doesn't care, but that's just me being cynical.

[Luso Saiyan]

You have to think of it from Toriyama's perspective. He hasn't "changed" or "rewritten" anything. For all we know, he always intended for Goku to be this age and the anime peeps interpreted it differently. See also: the depiction of Hell in Resurrection 'F' vs. the rest of the anime. Indeed, when Roshi is talking about Gohan finding Goku in the mountains, the word he uses is "child" rather than "baby". And really, a young warrior child having a mission to wipe out a species makes more sense than a newborn.

One has to watch this movie with regard to the manga only for it to make sense, because that's what Toriyama's doing. He's not beholden to some other writer's version of his main character's origin (regardless of how much he's said he likes it). We already saw this version in Dragon Ball Minus - it's not a new development. We're simply seeing another divergence between "Toriyama-continuity" and "Toei-continuity" play out on screen. Just like Roshi's story of the Dragon Balls' origin or Dr. Frappe: "Our Lord Creator came up with something else, so we have no choice but to adapt that and quietly ignore what we came up with by ourselves."

The Lucas comparison is a good one - the Expanded Universe was not his story or under his control, so he had no problems overwriting whatever he wanted when creating new material. And really, why should he? It's not his problem that some people treat these ancillary things like immutable stone tablets handed down by Moses. If somebody wrote an origin story for my protagonist as a tie-in novel or something, you'd better believe I'd ignore the shit out of it if I wanted to tell that story myself, even if it was good - because chances are it never lined up with my notions of what that story would be anyway.

Exactly! How this simple and logical notion is continuously ignored by so many people is beyond me.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't mind the idea of change, or the idea of re-imaging Goku's origin or backstory... as long as the revision feels wholesome and worthwhile. Nothing about Toriyama's personal changes to the origins of Goku's feel worthwhile, wholesome or justified in the slightest. Everything about Dragon Ball Minus felt like change just for the sake of it, and not to bring anything interesting or genuinely good to the table. Dragon Ball Minus does far more harm to Goku's story the more you look closer at it and take into consideration the events of the main story. And Toriyama either didn't realized it would have such a negative impact on the theme in his story or he just didn't care because he really wanted to do his version of Bardock and Goku's origins regardless. And I hate to say this, but I'm inclined to believe it may be the latter.

[KBABZ]

Apparently, yes, since Minus is now canon to Super, which is meant to be a continuation of Z.

Personally I don't think so; I would be shocked if Toriyama didn't expand or adjust the Goku backstory in some way for the movie now that it isn't just a couple of pages in the back of one of his other stories. Right now I mentally organize it like this:

Bardock Special -> DBZ/GT
Minus -> Manga
Broly 4 -> Kai/Super

(as you can probably guess, I consider Kai different from Z, as Z leads to GT and Super uses flashbacks specifically from Kai)

[JohnnyCashKami]

(as you can probably guess, I consider Kai different from Z, as Z leads to GT and Super uses flashbacks specifically from Kai)

Huh, not sure I understand it exactly cause, you see, Dragon Ball Kai is just a HD version and even then it's not all that good looking at times. The original Kai with the Yamamoto score is my preferred way of viewing it, sigh.. TOEI could have made fantastic use of the Z score for Kai but they really fucked it up.

Gohan SSJ2 scene didn't even get a special/unique BGM, it was just another repetitive track used throughout the series. Kai in a way gave some bad rep to Kikuchi, sadly.

[Kunzait_83]

I don't mind the idea of change, or the idea of re-imaging Goku's origin or backstory... as long as the revision feels wholesome and worthwhile. Nothing about Toriyama's personal changes to the origins of Goku's feel worthwhile, wholesome or justified in the slightest. Everything about Dragon Ball Minus felt like change just for the sake of it, and not to bring anything interesting or genuinely good to the table. Dragon Ball Minus does far more harm to Goku's story the more you look closer at it and take into consideration the events of the main story.

Pretty much every single word of this exactly. The problem isn't that Minus is a "manga revision" of Bardock's anime story in and of itself, and more so that Minus in and of itself is a VERY poor rendition of those events that does actual, tangible damage to Goku's character arc in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs. That Minus is also VASTLY inferior to the Bardock anime special, which did a FAR infinitely better and more poignant job of telling this particular backstory (to the point that it was as every bit as beloved and iconic a piece of the series as anything in the manga from Toriyama's own pen), and that it actively ruins and fundamentally misunderstands everything of genuine interest to Bardock himself that made him so popular and well liked among most DB fans all these many years is merely the icing on top. I'd go so far as to say that the Bardock of Minus is almost the EXACT OPPOSITE in many ways of everything that was so interesting and compelling about the classic Bardock of the anime special.

And also while yes I totally understand the argument that Toriyama isn't technically beholden to the Bardock special as a piece of anime/Toei material; the fact that the special HAS been directly and unmistakably referenced in the manga for a few panels (along with Toriyama's positively glowing praise of it) DOES also kinda nullify this point at least somewhat. Due to those factors, for all these years now the Bardock special WAS generally seen as the ONE piece of Toei anime that COULD have a genuine reason to be seen as "manga canon" so to speak.

Its hardly an iron-clad reason itself, and if Toriyama decided "screw it, let me do my own manga-fied version of events", that IN THEORY would've been perfectly fine: had Minus turned out VASTLY differently and MUCH better in its execution, I doubt that NEARLY as many fans would feel so strongly against it, and I know that I myself personally would just see it as another "fork in the canon" so to speak (or rather "hey now you got TWO awesome Bardock backstories to choose from!").

The real core of the issue here though is that Minus is of such VASTLY, astronomically lower narrative/creative quality than pretty much ANYTHING Toriyama's ever done for Dragon Ball manga-wise (or in general really) to the point that it does active, serious harm to some of the fundamental underpinnings of Goku's character; and thus the core heart and soul of the series. And that there are fans who'll overlook all of that and defend it anyway, either out of blind "loyalty" to anything Toriyama ever does regardless of care and quality or because "We got to see Goku's mom finally!" is just beyond absurd.

In terms of Toriyama's 42 volume "manga canon" of the series, Minus is without a doubt now the overwhelmingly biggest pockmark on the whole thing. And that there was ALREADY a perfectly well loved, beautifully executed, series-iconic, and even manga-referenced version of this same exact story that's been sitting around all along for ALL these years/decades now just makes Minus and its critical failings feel all the more frustratingly senseless. This really wasn't a problem with the series that had any excuse whatsoever to happen in any remote way, and that its from Toriyama's own direct hand makes it sting extra hard.

[KBABZ]

(as you can probably guess, I consider Kai different from Z, as Z leads to GT and Super uses flashbacks specifically from Kai)

Huh, not sure I understand it exactly cause, you see, Dragon Ball Kai is just a HD version and even then it's not all that good looking at times.

True, but for me it also helps categorize things slightly. Z is the expanded take on the manga and is where things like GT connect to, because it's a direct continuation. Super, outside of a few references like Yamcha's baseball career, basically acts like none of the Z filler ever happened, which is why it's more appropriate for me to consider it connected more to the Kai take on the manga than with Z's. The use of Sumitomo in TFC helps establish the connection further. I guess to put it another way, I would not say that GT is a continuation of the end of the manga, and is instead connected exclusively to Z despite Z and the manga being closely related.

[WittyUsername]

(as you can probably guess, I consider Kai different from Z, as Z leads to GT and Super uses flashbacks specifically from Kai)

Huh, not sure I understand it exactly cause, you see, Dragon Ball Kai is just a HD version and even then it's not all that good looking at times.

True, but for me it also helps categorize things slightly. Z is the expanded take on the manga and is where things like GT connect to, because it's a direct continuation. Super, outside of a few references like Yamcha's baseball career, basically acts like none of the Z filler ever happened, which is why it's more appropriate for me to consider it connected more to the Kai take on the manga than with Z's. The use of Sumitomo in TFC helps establish the connection further. I guess to put it another way, I would not say that GT is a continuation of the end of the manga, and is instead connected exclusively to Z despite Z and the manga being closely related.

There are still two key problems with connecting Super to Kai. First, as far as Kai is concerned, Goku was sent to Earth as an infant in order to conquer it, which doesn’t mesh with the backstory established in Minus, which Super is supposed to be canon to. Second, the Toei version of Hell actually did appear in Kai, and it’s completly different from Toriyama’s version of it.

Interestingly enough, both Kai and the anime version of Super apparently kept the whole subplot of Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma intact, which is odd. Is Toei just really fond of that particular filler moment?

[KBABZ]

There are still two key problems with connecting Super to Kai. First, as far as Kai is concerned, Goku was sent to Earth as an infant in order to conquer it, which doesn’t mesh with the backstory established in Minus, which Super is supposed to be canon to. Second, the Toei version of Hell actually did appear in Kai, and it’s completly different from Toriyama’s version of it.

On the first point, that was obviously done long before Toriyama incorporated the new backstory into Super-Broly, and with Kai being essentially a high-production re-edit, it wouldn't have been in its scope to actually animate something new for the show that wasn't part of the intro or eyecatches, so it reused the Bardock Special content to help fill out the first episode and make the Saiyan/Namek arcs feel more cohesive and planned out than they actually were. I place the Super-Broly backstory in the same zone as when the anime gives us a backstory for the Dragon Balls in early 1986, only for Toriyama to give a completely different take two years later and then the anime pretends their version was never mentioned.

Interestingly enough, both Kai and the anime version of Super apparently kept the whole subplot of Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma intact, which is odd. Is Toei just really fond of that particular filler moment?

Yeah it is weird, it's sort of DBZ's equivalent of Bowsette really.

[XanatosVanBadass]

I think Toriyama crossed the line with Minus well into Lucas territory. Not only did he get rid of a lot of what makes Goku great as a character for an ill conceived attempt to flesh out his backstory but heavily diminished the Saiyan arc by extension.

Goku's character, completely ignoring the Bardock special, was two things: a worthless cast off who nobody cared about (even Bardock in the special only does as a means to get revenge on Freeza) who was deemed trash from birth and sent off to destroy the planet Earth. Then, thanks to lots of lucky breaks and his own actions along with the people around him, Goku helps save the planet and people he was supposed to destroy. Goku of course doesn't fight to save the planet, that's never his main goal, he wants to test himself by fighting greater opponents but it is something he accomplishes nonetheless as a byproduct OF beating the strong opponents he's currently facing.

Through all this, he proves the Saiyan society wrong for thinking of him as worthless trash by training with great martial arts masters and proceeding to beat the crap out of Prince Vegeta, the representation of that elitist society. Now, once again, Goku doesn't fight Vegeta to prove this point but much like how he saves the world as a happy byproduct, he too proves Vegeta and all the Saiyans wrong. He becomes way better than absolutely all of them.

Now, thanks to Minus, the irony of saving the planet and people he was supposed to destroy? Gone, his status as a worthless cast off nobody cared about? Gone. Goku is now the special love child of a unique Saiyan relationship unlike any other with loving parents who love him and suck each others dicks off because they're oh so special and in love. That is so, so, SO much less interesting and really takes the wind out of Goku's sails which coupled with his horrendous characterization in Super has done quite a lot to damage the character and I absolutely blame Toriyama for this.

The cherry on this shit sunday is nuBroly getting several traits of Goku's old backstory because Goku being turned into a considerably shitier character is totally warranted so Broly of all people can be marginally less shit.

I wholeheartedly agree with every single line of this post, and co-sign on all of it 1000% and then some. Minus is garbage and it DOES do damage to both the original manga storyline AND the Bardock special. It diminishes Goku's core characterization and overall arc, it diminishes the Saiya-jin as a concept, and it diminishes Bardock. Its an out and out dumpster fire of a storyline on every conceivable level that adds nothing of value and indeed DETRACTS from the original series, and I genuinely question the judgement and critical thinking abilities of those who go out of their way to defend it as anything other than fanfiction.net caliber material (as if simply giving a name and a face to Goku's mom is in ANY way worth all this other nonsense).

My only contention to ANY of this remotely is that I would put Minus on the relative Lucas-esque level of the Star Wars Prequels: a shitty prelude to the original classic. And while the SW prequels were indeed utter garbage themselves for the most part, I hardly think of them as the single worst thing Lucas has ever done to the SW series: that to me is unquestionably the whole phasing out any purchasability of the original versions of the original trilogy in favor of the DRAMATICALLY altered (and indeed, increasingly so over time) Special Editions.

Making a bad sequel or prequel to a classic work is one thing: going out of one's way to make that classic work as unavailable to the general public as possible and putting in its place a HEAVILY downgraded and compromised altered version of it is a WHOLE different level of insanity, and one that is overall VERY unique to Lucas (and a select few others who've attempted similar stunts).

Dragon Ball Minus is a travesty of a prequel prelude to DB: Super is a milquetoast, lackluster sequel/revival of it. Both of those would utterly PALE if Toriyama did something like go back and RADICALLY rejigger the original manga from nearly top to bottom (extra bonus points if he did it in an effort to conform to things done with Minus and Super) and have all original printings of the manga summarily yanked out of print and have the new, heavily altered version be the ONLY version legally available forevermore for decades and decades after.

THAT to me would be some George Lucas-level shit. Minus as it is, is just bad on its own terms, and immensely more so if you seriously wanted to incorporate it as part of the original series canon. As it currently stands, the only "canon" of anything its going to be impacting going forward is Super: and Super to me is basically just this generation's Dragon Ball GT: an anime-centric fork in the road of the original series' ending with minimal involvement from Toriyama (which may or may not be a good thing, in light of Minus).

The issue with Super (and Minus' impact on it) is really the fact that the current fanbase is VERY taken with the idea of accepting Super as part of the "mainstream/classic" Dragon Ball "canon" (such as it is) primarily because A) its new, and the overall anime fanbase of the past 15/20 years now is positively OBSESSED with the anything at all relating to the notion of "what's newest and most current RIGHT NOW this very second" (and the DB fandom of that same timeframe is weirdly fixated on the series continuing on in perpetuity forever and ever without end, Marvel/DC style), and B) the current fanbase has this VASTLY over-inflated idea as to the precise level of Toriyama's overall impact on and involvement with Super.

This ultimately ties into that other "Can I just ignore Super?" thread: yes, as of right now at least, of course you can. Because Super is basically just a 20 years after the fact revival of a long-finished and completed series with minimal involvement of the original creator. The most direct thing out of the original creator's pen in recent years is mainly Minus: which yeah, I would also say is VERY much worth also ignoring, as it offers NOTHING of value or worth to the original series, and certainly detracts PLENTY from it.

If heaven forbid we arrive at a bleak era when the original 42 volume tankobon and original DB/Z anime are all but totally erased from print/availability, and its only some RADICALLY revised rendition (made retroactively in light of and in reflection of Super and Minus) that's out there and that's acting as the "main face" of the series to the general public... then yeah. Toriyama-as-Lucas all the way.

I get your point, but I don’t think you’re making the right comparisons. Your comparing minus to the PT when thstscnot a proper analog. The better comparison would be how for the Clone Wars animated series, he would pick and choose story elements, characters, planets, etc. from the Star Wars expended universe (EU for short) and used them in HIS canon. Doing so he’d take other people’s creations and alter them to his liking and quirks, often ruining the very thing the fans liked about them. For instance, Lucas randomly declared Jango (and thusly Boba) Fett were no longer Mandalorean. They just liked the armed and equipment totes.

This retcon forced an EU writer to quit since this completely derailed a novel series she was writing where the clone trooper and Mando culture were important aspects. DB- (and the upcoming movie for that matter) is more like this I feel. Taking established lore that others put their hearts and souls into and suiting them to Toriyama’s tastes. Lucas and Toriyama are the creators of their respected universes, yes. That said, it does feel disrespectful at times. And it’s hard to get excited about Bardock on the big screen if he isn’t the guy we knew and lived from the tv special. Much like how the excitement for Mandos In TCW was lessened when Lucas made them no longer the badass warrior race that could take on Jedi, but a stereotypical group of pascifists.

[ekrolo2]

I think Goku being a kid in Minus might come from this:

Roshi specifically calls him a kid, not baby which coupled with Goku & Bulma's age difference back to being only two years and not four may point to Toriyama just re-reading the Hunt for DBs arc and basing things in Minus off of that.

[KBABZ]

I think Goku being a kid in Minus might come from this:

Roshi specifically calls him a kid, not baby which coupled with Goku & Bulma's age difference back to being only two years and not four may point to Toriyama just re-reading the Hunt for DBs arc and basing things in Minus off of that.

It could also be that Gohan didn't have a chance to tell Roshi about Goku until he had grown up a fair bit.

[Ssjcell]

I think Goku being a kid in Minus might come from this:

Roshi specifically calls him a kid, not baby which coupled with Goku & Bulma's age difference back to being only two years and not four may point to Toriyama just re-reading the Hunt for DBs arc and basing things in Minus off of that.

As long as it's consistent with the manga I don't have a problem with it

[precita]

Retconning Bardock is the bigger travesty

[linkdude20002001]

Retconning Bardock is the bigger travesty

Toriyama should have kept his paws from writing Minus. Minus absolutely craps on the manga and Bardock's character.

How did Toriyama retcon/crap-on a character he'd previously wrote practically nothing about? Please tell me how he retcond himself.

[KBABZ]

Retconning Bardock is the bigger travesty

Toriyama should have kept his paws from writing Minus. Minus absolutely craps on the manga and Bardock's character.

How did Toriyama retcon/crap-on a character he'd previously wrote practically nothing about? Please tell me how he retcond himself.

I'm guessing Toriyama's approval of the Bardock Special and giving a tip of the hat to it in the manga was taken by many, myself included, as a Word of God approval of that story.

[Attitudefan]

Toriyama did draw Bardock as he is seen in the TV special in his own manga. If that sequence of events are changed enough where even the armour is changed, then there is a retcon happening.

[linkdude20002001]

I'm guessing Toriyama's approval of the Bardock Special and giving a tip of the hat to it in the manga was taken by many, myself included, as a Word of God approval of that story.

Me too, but we assumed wrong. He liked it, sure, but had his own ideas on how the story of Bardock went. Same as how I can like the movies, but know they don't actually take place in the comic time-line (and even tho they can't possibly take place in the anime time-line, they some-how do).

Toriyama did draw Bardock as he is seen in the TV special in his own manga. If that sequence of events are changed enough where even the armour is changed, then there is a retcon happening.

Armor looking different is hardly a retcon. I'm much more concerned with him retconning the colors all the time. What color is Karin? The world may never know. Tho, I do prefer indigo-haired Bulma to green-haired Bulma. So retcons can be a good thing!