How good was the Saiyan Saga as a jumping on point?

[Forte224]

If you're going to jump into the middle of the story, the Saiyan Arc is the best spot to do it honestly. For example:

-It's right after one of the least active (for lack of a better term) time gaps in the original story. Previously, the time gaps were leading to something, usually the next TB. In this one, there was nothing it was leading up to specifically, so you won't be confused jumping in as to what the goal is or who the adversary is

-Piccolo is clearly spelled out as a powerful and formidable enemy that Goku has fought before, and Raditz' scouter shows that they're pretty close to being equals

-Kuririn, Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu are cleary identified as previous comrades, with the last 4 becoming pretty insignificant after this arc. The deaths of the last 3 lose meaning since you don't really know their backstories, but their deaths are still significant to you because you can tell these guys are strong, but the Saiyans still make quick work of them

-Kuririn is still an effective character, because he helps out a lot in the Saiyan fight, and he essentially takes on the role of main character during portions of the Namek Arc. So, even though you don't have his whole backstory, he's still a character you grow attached to

-The Dragon Balls' functions are explained to Raditz briefly, enough to let the audience know how they work

There are other examples, but I can't help but wonder if Toei knew what they were doing when they changed the name to DBZ at this specific spot...wait, why did they suddenly change it from DB to DBZ anyway? Just for marketing hype? I know I've read why before, but I can't remember now. Anyway, if you're going to jump into the middle of the story, this is really the best place to do it. I think starting at the very beginning should be a given, but I don't think it's as insanely stunningly crucial as everyone says it is.

The first time I read the manga from beginning to end I didn't suddenly have all these revelations, but that might also be because the anime had a lot of filler showing flashbacks of the first 16 volumes of the story. That said, it did make me appreciate the characters a whole lot more, and also made me content with why they didn't get used much in the "Z" portion. It's because their character arcs were basically already wrapped up.

[SheonGT]

Not good, but Dragon Ball had failed twice in America before FUNi started where they did.
Goku's reveal as a Saiyan and Piccolo teaming up with him doesn't have a fraction of the gravity it does in the context of Dragon Ball. The Raditz fight and his kidnapping Gohan is pretty awesome though, so it wasn't boring.

[KBABZ]

Ironically enough, the Saiyan arc explains and spells out ALL of this background fairly in-depth: in the Japanese version. The dub made sure to leave all of this crucial detail 100% out of its scripts (at least for Z: IIRC the Kai dub retains more of this info to at least some degree), so unless you're rocking the subbed version you're liable to miss all of this anyway.

Do you remember the specific scene? I can go look for you!

[MasenkoHA]

Not good, but Dragon Ball had failed twice in America before FUNi started where they did.
.

Of course it only failed twice because of horrid time slots and also, in the case of the Harmony Gold, was only ran in limited test markets. Dragon Ball Z did better in syndication (it also had better timeslots and I believe Saban was able to get it covered in larger parts of the USA than Dragon Ball’s distributor)but didn’t really do well until Toonami picked it up for its weekday afternoon block.

Dragon Ball did much better on Toonami than it had previously and probably would have done even better if it wasn’t being passed off as Dragon Ball Z Babies

[Kunzait_83]

Ironically enough, the Saiyan arc explains and spells out ALL of this background fairly in-depth: in the Japanese version. The dub made sure to leave all of this crucial detail 100% out of its scripts (at least for Z: IIRC the Kai dub retains more of this info to at least some degree), so unless you're rocking the subbed version you're liable to miss all of this anyway.

Do you remember the specific scene? I can go look for you!

Its the scene where Kami and Mr. Popo are discussing the changes that Piccolo has gone through since his Ma Junior reincarnation: that he's no longer technically a demon anymore because the souls of those he kills are sent to the afterlife and are no longer left trapped in limbo like before. In Kai it should be circa episode 5 or so.

Its an incredibly crucial bit of plot exposition in the Japanese version (that makes fairly plain the nature of what exactly Piccolo is) that the original Z dub had famously butchered and had left COMPLETELY absent entirely, replacing Kami and Popo's lines instead with them pointlessly recapping the events of the fight between Goku, Piccolo, and Raditz (that we literally JUST saw an episode or two ago). From what I can hazily recall, the Kai dub might've handled this scene much better overall (enough to at least PRETEND like its trying to be related to what approximately the hell was said in the original), though I believe it still omits some critical details regardless. Again though, my exact recollection of the scene in Kai's dub is quite fuzzy (I'm hardly a fan of Kai in Japanese, much less in English).

The issue with the scene of course, from FUNimation's perspective, being that it directly deals with very heavily Eastern/Buddhist religious concepts in specific detail: and FUNimation has had a very long history of scrubbing any hints of explicitly Eastern mysticism from the series in favor of either secularizing it or otherwise rendering the concepts as vague, ambiguous, and oblique as they can possibly get away with.

[MasenkoHA]

^the dialog was omitted in the Kai dub as well

As far as I recall the equivalent scene just has Kami saying Piccolo must have changed because the old Piccolo would never train Goku’s son or something. The whole discussion of Piccolo not being a demon anymore was definitely not in the Kai dub at least

[Kunzait_83]

^the dialog was omitted in the Kai dub as well

I could've sworn there was SOME (watered down) version of it there in Kai (I'm going off of exceedingly faint memories from back when the dub was pretty recent). But if I'm misremembering, then I can't say that I'm surprised its still not in there: for all the talk of how much better and more accurate Kai's scripts are, FUNimation has ALWAYS remained fairly consistent and steadfast in their being hopelessly gunshy and stubbornly resistant about so much as acknowledging Dragon Ball's most overtly and distinctively Chinese/Wuxia elements and themes. Which is kind of a big problem as those concepts and themes make up pretty much the entire crux of the series' basic-most premise.

I mean to this day, we STILL cannot get a direct reference to or mention of Ki by name within any version of any FUNimation Dragon Ball dub: one of the (if not THE) cornerstone, central-most concepts that the ENTIRE core being of the series revolves itself around. Even as recently as the Super dub of the Goku Black arc, they're still using the goddamn term "Power Levels" to refer to Ki-related concepts.

I mean its 2018 guys: the first Budokai game on PS2 was like over 15 years ago, and pretty much the ENTIRE English fandom, even the most die hard of dub fans, knows what the fuck Ki is on at least SOME barebones basic level. But we're still doing this absurd dance where FUNimation has it permanently baked into the cake that its still forever 1996, and they're still tailoring this stuff to a syndicated audience of ignorant, Power Rangers-obsessed middle school kids from the Clinton years, and we all still have to collectively pretend that DB is some X-Men-esque sci fi superhero series where the characters use some vague, nebulous, non-descript "energy" that comes from nowhere in particular and has no explanation for existing in any way because... god forbid any child in America has to be told that China or Japan are places that exist, and that Eastern folklore is also a thing?

Which is exponentially ridiculous, given that similarly Eastern folkloric anime series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Innuyasha, and about a few dozen other mainstream Shonen titles which all have had dubs that don't have any problems with these concepts whatsoever are all mainstream staples that tons of kids have now LONG been exposed to since well over a decade ago.

So yeah, if Kai still completely wrote out this scene, then that remains fairly par for the course in these matters. At the very least as of Super, we finally get to acknowledge that there are gods in the series (though only with regards to the Gods of Destruction: I don't think the Kaios and Kaioshins are acknowledged as being deities in the dub still, to the best of my knowledge at least, and definitely not Kami). So that's something I guess?

But yeah, there's ALWAYS been a bizarre cognitive dissonance with regards to FUNimation's dubs where the overall collective Western fanbase all by now largely knows (on the dub AND sub side of things) on some basic level that there are all these mystical, folkloric elements in the series... but the dubs still go on pretending like they're largely not there and cannot ever be acknowledged (as if the "ruse" that none of this stuff is Japanese/Asian from the Saban/Ocean days is still a thing that has to be permanently maintained no matter what in a WWE/Kayfabe-like manner), and no one in the fanbase ever acts like this isn't REALLY fucking unnecessarily stupid and awkward. Its easily one of my single biggest pet peeves out of all my various pet peeves with FUNimation's treatment of the series throughout the years.

[MasenkoHA]

Does Kami saying Piccolo has changed and isn’t as evil before count as a watered down version?

To be honest I don’t think the Kai or Z dub ever once referred to Piccolo as a demon. The Dragon Ball dub ...maybe?

[KBABZ]

Ironically enough, the Saiyan arc explains and spells out ALL of this background fairly in-depth: in the Japanese version. The dub made sure to leave all of this crucial detail 100% out of its scripts (at least for Z: IIRC the Kai dub retains more of this info to at least some degree), so unless you're rocking the subbed version you're liable to miss all of this anyway.

Do you remember the specific scene? I can go look for you!

Its the scene where Kami and Mr. Popo are discussing the changes that Piccolo has gone through since his Ma Junior reincarnation: that he's no longer technically a demon anymore because the souls of those he kills are sent to the afterlife and are no longer left trapped in limbo like before. In Kai it should be circa episode 5 or so.

Okay! I thought so, just needed confirmation. Okay, here's how the scene plays out in the Kai FUNi dialogue after watching it:

Popo: Kami... what is it? Is something troubling you?
Kami: -grunts- ...it's Piccolo. I can still feel the evil in his heart. And yet, there seems to be a change coming over him, Mr. Popo. He is not acting like the villain I would expect!
Popo: Ahh, it is odd. The old King Piccolo never would have been willing to train Goku's son!
Kami: Yes, I found it equally surprising when he agreed to forge an alliance with Goku in order to fight Raditz. I realize he had his own selfish motives for doing so, but still. It does not change the fact that he chose to defend the Earth! And though it may seem Piccolo's true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz... we must not forget that Goku chose to make that sacrifice. Not only that, but he can easily be revived with the Dragon Balls. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return, and yet he has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may one day grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right.
Popo: When you put it that way, it doesn't make sense!
Kami: Perhaps it does, Mr. Popo, perhaps it does. Piccolo may have realized as I have that in one year we will die.
Popo: ... ...no, Kami!
Kami: I am sorry Mr. Popo, but I have foreseen it. I do not know the exact cause of our passing. Whether Piccolo will lose his life to the Saiyans, or if I will simply succumb to old age, but the result is the same. My life force is forever bound with Piccolo's. We are two halves of the same being. One cannot exist without the other. -laughs grimly- You might say it's the curse of foresight, seeing the day of my own demise. If Piccolo has sensed my mind, he may wish to pass his knowledge on before he dies, even if it's to the son of his own enemy.
Popo: But what about the Dragon Balls?
Kami: Hmm... there's time for... one more wish.

The most notable change here is that the dialogue "And though it may seem Piccolo's true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz..." is overlaid of a flashback of Piccolo defeating Raditz; in the Japanese Kai there's no dialogue there. As well, the dialogue of

"...we must not forget that Goku chose to make that sacrifice. Not only that, but he can easily be revived with the Dragon Balls. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return, and yet he has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may one day grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right."

and Popo's "it doesn't make sense!" reply

...replaces what is in the original Kai dialogue Kami explaining limbo souls killed by demon clansmen thing, and how that did not happen with Raditz. Which is a bit odd because as I recall, in the FUNi dub of Dragon Ball Korin explains to Goku that mechanic. Still though, at least the intent of the scene, which is discussion Piccolo's change in character compared to his father, is now there.

To be honest I don’t think the Kai or Z dub ever once referred to Piccolo as a demon. The Dragon Ball dub ...maybe?

As I recall the DB dub I think does refer to Piccolo as being part of the demon clan, most likely in the scene where Korin lays it out to Goku what happened to Krillin and Roshi's souls after they were killed.

[MasenkoHA]

Though it seems the Kai’s dub dialog isn’t that different from the Z dub dialog


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5cViWeSK8

[Kunzait_83]

Does Kami saying Piccolo has changed and isn’t as evil before count as a watered down version?

That might very well have been what I was initially thinking of: I saw the Kai scene dubbed only once forever and ever ago. And I don't think there's a youtube clip handy for me to check.

But either way, its a far, far cry from what the original, properly translated script delves into.

**EDIT** Nevermind! Thanks KBABZ!

To be honest I don’t think the Kai or Z dub ever once referred to Piccolo as a demon. The Dragon Ball dub ...maybe?

Nope, it never did. Almost NONE of the demon characters throughout most of the series (Piccolo, Garlic Jr, the afterlife Oni, etc) are EVER acknowledged as being demons in the series EVER, except for Dabura and possibly/maybe Janemba? Can't remember, but towards the VERY late-end stages of the dub there've been a few exceptions allowed with regards to acknowledging demons (Boo though, funny enough, isn't one of them).

Again, its just something else that's been part of the dub's long-standing, stubbornly clung to demystification of the series' lore.

[KBABZ]

Though it seems the Kai’s dub dialog isn’t that different from the Z dub dialog

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5cViWeSK8

No it isn't, although I must say the performance in Kai is tons better. Could that also be dialogue that was rewritten for the DVDs or something?

[zDBZ]

I don't ever remember being confused as a kid; there's enough discussion about past events and relationships, in the Saiyan saga and later on, that it was easy enough to absorb the essential backstory through osmosis.

Other than the very beginning of the Buu saga, there isn't any other point in the original series that feels like such a "new start," with the introduction of so many new characters and elements, so it seems an excellent jumping-on point to me.

[Mister_Popo]

The thing is, it wasn't never ment to be as a Jump On spot. The original DB Manga didn't have DBZ at first. So it was just another new arc within the same contuinity.
When they animated the first arcs, DB as an anime tv series seemed pretty succesful. So they decided to make a sequel: DBZ.
The sequel was more succesful at the end than the original series, so people just started with Z while it wasn't intented that way.

Starting off with the killing of the main heroe was daring in a sense, but at the same time it excited and invited everybody to keep watching the show.
The Saga also gave us more information about who main race of the series than DB did.
Maybe they could have done a recap of the original series in the start of Z.
But i don't think it's that bothersome. People can always still watch the prequel as they please.

[KBABZ]

The thing is, it wasn't never ment to be as a Jump On spot. The original DB Manga didn't have DBZ at first. So it was just another new arc within the same contuinity.
When they animated the first arcs, DB as an anime tv series seemed pretty succesful. So they decided to make a sequel: DBZ.
The sequel was more succesful at the end than the original series, so people just started with Z while it wasn't intented that way.

Starting off with the killing of the main heroe was daring in a sense, but at the same time it excited and invited everybody to keep watching the show.
The Saga also gave us more information about who main race of the series than DB did.
Maybe they could have done a recap of the original series in the start of Z.
But i don't think it's that bothersome. People can always still watch the prequel as they please.

I disagree with your view on how the series is constructed. The story was written contiguously as one whole piece and written as it went on with no real grand plan or end goal. It's not like different shows of Ben 10, or Avatar to Korra, it's one entire story. The switch to Z was a marketing ploy so that Toei could market DBZ as if it were a brand new show when really it wasn't. Similar to how Fellowship of the Ring isn't a prequel to The Two Towers, or Sailor Moon isn't a prequel to Sailor Moon S, Dragon Ball isn't a prequel to Z, it's literally the first half of one full story.

People starting with Z is mainly the cause of FUNimation rocketing off with that in the West, but also because Toei pulls much, MUCH more marketing force towards Z, so people start there rather than with where the story actually starts.

[ABED]

I don't ever remember being confused as a kid; there's enough discussion about past events and relationships, in the Saiyan saga and later on, that it was easy enough to absorb the essential backstory through osmosis.

Other than the very beginning of the Buu saga, there isn't any other point in the original series that feels like such a "new start," with the introduction of so many new characters and elements, so it seems an excellent jumping-on point to me.

DB is a sufficiently simple story that you can get the gist of things, but even when I first saw it as a pre-teen, I got the impression something was missing. Why would ANY story begin with not just one but several of its characters saying they had already died and been brought back before?

[Desassina]

It was good enough that they remembered how to explain the origins of Piccolo in the original Japanese version, through filler episodes expanded by a nonsense arc in terms of how it fits notwithstanding, because I was certainly hooked to the action and did not care about continuity yet. I'm saying this as someone who has watched the Dragon Ball anime in Portuguese and gone back to DBZ in Japanese after I completed it in my own language. It served as a reminder of the arcs before it without having gone through them. That happened before I knew about the manga and bought it, but specially prior to the internet discussion of it, which helped taint my view on the anime.

In other words, and to make this simple, watching DBZ like it was new was enough to go without the original Dragon Ball.

[Mister_Popo]

The thing is, it wasn't never ment to be as a Jump On spot. The original DB Manga didn't have DBZ at first. So it was just another new arc within the same contuinity.
When they animated the first arcs, DB as an anime tv series seemed pretty succesful. So they decided to make a sequel: DBZ.
The sequel was more succesful at the end than the original series, so people just started with Z while it wasn't intented that way.

Starting off with the killing of the main heroe was daring in a sense, but at the same time it excited and invited everybody to keep watching the show.
The Saga also gave us more information about who main race of the series than DB did.
Maybe they could have done a recap of the original series in the start of Z.
But i don't think it's that bothersome. People can always still watch the prequel as they please.

I disagree with your view on how the series is constructed. The story was written contiguously as one whole piece and written as it went on with no real grand plan or end goal. It's not like different shows of Ben 10, or Avatar to Korra, it's one entire story. The switch to Z was a marketing ploy so that Toei could market DBZ as if it were a brand new show when really it wasn't. Similar to how Fellowship of the Ring isn't a prequel to The Two Towers, or Sailor Moon isn't a prequel to Sailor Moon S, Dragon Ball isn't a prequel to Z, it's literally the first half of one full story.

People starting with Z is mainly the cause of FUNimation rocketing off with that in the West, but also because Toei pulls much, MUCH more marketing force towards Z, so people start there rather than with where the story actually starts.

No, i actually think we mean the same.
DB is one continious story as written by Akira Toriyama. With 'prequel' (DB) and 'sequel' (DBZ) i referred to how the story was branded by TOEI in the anime.
Later on, because of the popularity of the anime, the name DBZ was applied to the publication of the manga as well, but that wasn't intented originally by Toriyama, it was all just Dragonball to him.
DBZ isn't the beginning of anything new, it's just a part of the original DB-story.

[KBABZ]

No, i actually think we mean the same.
DB is one continious story as written by Akira Toriyama. With 'prequel' (DB) and 'sequel' (DBZ) i referred to how the story was branded by TOEI in the anime.
Later on, because of the popularity of the anime, the name DBZ was applied to the publication of the manga as well, but that wasn't intented originally by Toriyama, it was all just Dragonball to him.
DBZ isn't the beginning of anything new, it's just a part of the DB-story.

I mean it should be noted that the manga has never been called DBZ in Japan, outside of the redundantly redundant Animanga. It's only called DBZ in the ViZ publication for the convenience of Western fans who were primarily introduced to the series with the DBZ dub.

For me the difference between a prequel and "an earlier part of the story" is that prequels are written after the story that succeeds them, such as DB-, Bardock, Jaco, and, from Trunks' perspective, Trunks: The Story.

[Mister_Popo]

No, i actually think we mean the same.
DB is one continious story as written by Akira Toriyama. With 'prequel' (DB) and 'sequel' (DBZ) i referred to how the story was branded by TOEI in the anime.
Later on, because of the popularity of the anime, the name DBZ was applied to the publication of the manga as well, but that wasn't intented originally by Toriyama, it was all just Dragonball to him.
DBZ isn't the beginning of anything new, it's just a part of the DB-story.

I mean it should be noted that the manga has never been called DBZ in Japan, outside of the redundantly redundant Animanga. It's only called DBZ in the ViZ publication for the convenience of Western fans who were primarily introduced to the series with the DBZ dub.

For me the difference between a prequel and "an earlier part of the story" is that prequels are written after the story that succeeds them, such as DB-, Bardock, Jaco, and, from Trunks' perspective, Trunks: The Story.

That's correct.
From perspective of TOEI it's not exactly a prequel, but from point of a viewer that first sees DBZ and only thereafter DB it comes down to the same thing, it has a prequel-effect.