Freeza is a good character now?

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:17 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: I hate this so much.
You hate this because it's so true 8)
Frieza needs a Bulma not a Gohan :lol:
Freeza is asexual so that ain't gonna happen.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:25 am

STAAAAAAAHP

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am

kemuri07 wrote:STAAAAAAAHP
I won't
I shan't
I ain't

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am

TheMikado wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Is he a good guy? No.

Is Super attempting to groom him into the next anti-hero because he's a popular character?
Most likely.



sigh.
Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza is still an evil asshole. He's just become much more cunning and far more tolerable of certain situations that he'd previously lose his cool over, if it can benefit him.
All this means is that Frieza is the next:

Yamcha
Tien
Piccolo
Vegeta
Android 16
Majin Buu

... etc etc etc... This trope has kinda run it's course by now.
Pretty much the reason why Freeza turning into another anti-hero/rival would be kind of the worst.

I think there were two ways that Toei had with dealing with Freeza: Either build him up to be the (eventual) final boss of Super or (and the more likely scenario) make him more cuddly and softer so they can justify having him around and fighting with everyone else. But he'll be really cross and call Goku a monkey every once in awhile, so it's totally not him being a good guy.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by Waluigiman » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 am

I am not convinced but I believe he just change into a different type of evil, he is probably now a pragmatic villain (maybe for the second time) instead of the irrational hothead from the first revival. I expect him now to try to follow Tagoma's advice even if he will not admit it and maybe be type of villain that will find new ways to get powerful or find trouble for Goku (like maybe he is the reason why Broly will be fighting Goku and Vegeta because he manipulated him or Paragous for that to happen.)

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:36 am

kemuri07 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Is he a good guy? No.

Is Super attempting to groom him into the next anti-hero because he's a popular character?
Most likely.



sigh.
Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza is still an evil asshole. He's just become much more cunning and far more tolerable of certain situations that he'd previously lose his cool over, if it can benefit him.
All this means is that Frieza is the next:

Yamcha
Tien
Piccolo
Vegeta
Android 16
Majin Buu

... etc etc etc... This trope has kinda run it's course by now.
Pretty much the reason why Freeza turning into another anti-hero/rival would be kind of the worst.

I think there were two ways that Toei had with dealing with Freeza: Either build him up to be the (eventual) final boss of Super or (and the more likely scenario) make him more cuddly and softer so they can justify having him around and fighting with everyone else. But he'll be really cross and call Goku a monkey every once in awhile, so it's totally not him being a good guy.
Besides, Freeza is a psychopath. Those people are naturally incapable of ever feeling empathy, remorse or love. So giving him a "Bulma" or "Gohan" wouldn't work. Same with characters like Cell and Zamasu. Making them into "good guys" would be bad writing.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am

Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?

What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am

ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?

What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
What about broly? Vegeta more or less mellowed out at the end of the buu saga and super anyway.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:51 am

ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?

What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.

It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:05 pm

zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?

What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.

It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:13 pm

ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?

What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.

It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?
There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:56 pm

I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it. He most likely falls into the category of sociopath, as best I understand the concept, but I don't think for the reasons you stated.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:00 pm

ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:04 pm

Freeza is obviously still evil. Hes plotting evil things in the movie in addition to the fact that he literally said he was going to keep going about his evil ways. There's nothing good about Freeza he is quite literally just fighting alongside Goku and friends for the sake of his own survival and nothing else.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:06 pm

zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.
Agreed, but he also doesn't show the slightest concern for Bulma and baby Trunks' well being when they are almost killed.

I might be walking my first point back a little as I agree that Vegeta is more of a sociopath than psychopath, but I don't agree with the reasons you've stated.

What roads can Freeza go down that aren't clichéd or done to death at this point?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:18 pm

zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.

It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?
There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.
Oh please. Frieza can sing the same exact sad song Vegeta did about how his father (King Cold) forced him to be living weapon against his will to appease Beerus or some other tripe and deep down Frieza's not so bad because he never really wanted to be evil.

This is Tien/Piccolo/Vegeta/Good Buu all over again.
Each time there was a common thread which brought them together as unlikely allies and it was a stronger opponent they both had to face.

Piccolo teams with Goku to fight Raditz.
Vegeta teamed with Z fighters to fight Frieza.
Good Buu teamed with the Z fighters to fight Evil buus.

There's literally no reason Vegeta can get redemption but Frieza can't. Their backstories could be almost identical.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:21 pm

I wouldn't call them identical, nor are character motivations all about backstory. Vegeta has a different psychology than Freeza. Both are power lusters, but Vegeta is a martial artist. He wants to be the best martial artist. Freeza doesn't care. He wants control and likes dominating people. I have a much easier time buying someone realizing they want to be the best fighter they can be and let go of their need to have others acknowledge it than I do someone giving up their desire to hurt people for the sake of hurting them.

We know little about Tenshinhan, but he was young enough that I can buy him not far enough along becoming an assassin that he doesn't need much to bring him into the light. Piccolo Jr. is a reincarnated former demon. Good Buu is literally the Buu that's left over after he spit out his evil side, much like Kami was. Hardly a conscious choice to be good.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by zarmack » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:22 pm

ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.
Agreed, but he also doesn't show the slightest concern for Bulma and baby Trunks' well being when they are almost killed.

I might be walking my first point back a little as I agree that Vegeta is more of a sociopath than psychopath, but I don't agree with the reasons you've stated.

What roads can Freeza go down that aren't clichéd or done to death at this point?
In the Buu saga, Majin Vegeta basically explained why he was an asshole to Bulma and both versions of Trunks in the Android arc. He felt ashamed of his feelings for them since he thought they were unfitting for a warrior like himself. The fact that he completely lost his mind after Cell killed Future Trunks showed that he did have some fatherly care towards him the whole time, he was just in denial of it back then.

As for Freeza, well could be something like a Hisoka or Lex Luther type villain since we'd never had anything like that in Dragonball. Not reforming in the slightest, but sticks around none the less.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:24 pm

TheMikado wrote:
zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote: But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?
There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.
Oh please. Frieza can sing the same exact sad song Vegeta did about how his father (King Cold) forced him to be living weapon against his will to appease Beerus or some other tripe and deep down Frieza's not so bad because he never really wanted to be evil.

This is Tien/Piccolo/Vegeta/Good Buu all over again.
Each time there was a common thread which brought them together as unlikely allies and it was a stronger opponent they both had to face.

Piccolo teams with Goku to fight Raditz.
Vegeta teamed with Z fighters to fight Frieza.
Good Buu teamed with the Z fighters to fight Evil buus.

There's literally no reason Vegeta can get redemption but Frieza can't. Their backstories could be almost identical.
I'm almost sure Freeza will get redeemed at some point if they intend to keep the character around forever, but it would be extremely poor writing after Namek, the start of the Android arc, ResF (especially ResF) and the ToP made it a point that he's nothing more than a self-serving piece of shit. If he were to be redeemed competently, then it should have happened ages ago.

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Re: Freeza is a good character now?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:28 pm

The fact that he completely lost his mind after Cell killed Future Trunks showed that he did have some fatherly care towards him the whole time, he was just in denial of it back then.
We never see this denial. Losing it after Trunks' death is the first time we see any sort of empathy for him. There's no indication that he's pushing down any feelings. We're told, but we're never SHOWN.

Any time villains are kept around, they have to become something of a good guy or else they loose their luster as they slowly become Saturday morning cartoon villains.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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