Freeza is asexual so that ain't gonna happen.Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:Frieza needs a Bulma not a GohanBebi Hatchiyack wrote:You hate this because it's so truekemuri07 wrote: I hate this so much.
Freeza is a good character now?
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
STAAAAAAAHP
- Kaiza_Toshiyuki
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
I won'tkemuri07 wrote:STAAAAAAAHP
I shan't
I ain't
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Pretty much the reason why Freeza turning into another anti-hero/rival would be kind of the worst.TheMikado wrote:kemuri07 wrote:Is he a good guy? No.
Is Super attempting to groom him into the next anti-hero because he's a popular character?
Most likely.
sigh.All this means is that Frieza is the next:Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza is still an evil asshole. He's just become much more cunning and far more tolerable of certain situations that he'd previously lose his cool over, if it can benefit him.
Yamcha
Tien
Piccolo
Vegeta
Android 16
Majin Buu
... etc etc etc... This trope has kinda run it's course by now.
I think there were two ways that Toei had with dealing with Freeza: Either build him up to be the (eventual) final boss of Super or (and the more likely scenario) make him more cuddly and softer so they can justify having him around and fighting with everyone else. But he'll be really cross and call Goku a monkey every once in awhile, so it's totally not him being a good guy.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
I am not convinced but I believe he just change into a different type of evil, he is probably now a pragmatic villain (maybe for the second time) instead of the irrational hothead from the first revival. I expect him now to try to follow Tagoma's advice even if he will not admit it and maybe be type of villain that will find new ways to get powerful or find trouble for Goku (like maybe he is the reason why Broly will be fighting Goku and Vegeta because he manipulated him or Paragous for that to happen.)
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Besides, Freeza is a psychopath. Those people are naturally incapable of ever feeling empathy, remorse or love. So giving him a "Bulma" or "Gohan" wouldn't work. Same with characters like Cell and Zamasu. Making them into "good guys" would be bad writing.kemuri07 wrote:Pretty much the reason why Freeza turning into another anti-hero/rival would be kind of the worst.TheMikado wrote:kemuri07 wrote:Is he a good guy? No.
Is Super attempting to groom him into the next anti-hero because he's a popular character?
Most likely.
sigh.All this means is that Frieza is the next:Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza is still an evil asshole. He's just become much more cunning and far more tolerable of certain situations that he'd previously lose his cool over, if it can benefit him.
Yamcha
Tien
Piccolo
Vegeta
Android 16
Majin Buu
... etc etc etc... This trope has kinda run it's course by now.
I think there were two ways that Toei had with dealing with Freeza: Either build him up to be the (eventual) final boss of Super or (and the more likely scenario) make him more cuddly and softer so they can justify having him around and fighting with everyone else. But he'll be really cross and call Goku a monkey every once in awhile, so it's totally not him being a good guy.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
What about broly? Vegeta more or less mellowed out at the end of the buu saga and super anyway.ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?zarmack wrote:He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.ABED wrote:But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?zarmack wrote:He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.ABED wrote:Vegeta wasn't a psychopath?
What makes it bad writing is Freeza is constantly being brought back and there's nowhere surprising to take him.
It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it. He most likely falls into the category of sociopath, as best I understand the concept, but I don't think for the reasons you stated.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Freeza is obviously still evil. Hes plotting evil things in the movie in addition to the fact that he literally said he was going to keep going about his evil ways. There's nothing good about Freeza he is quite literally just fighting alongside Goku and friends for the sake of his own survival and nothing else.
Spoiler:
- ABED
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Agreed, but he also doesn't show the slightest concern for Bulma and baby Trunks' well being when they are almost killed.zarmack wrote:Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
I might be walking my first point back a little as I agree that Vegeta is more of a sociopath than psychopath, but I don't agree with the reasons you've stated.
What roads can Freeza go down that aren't clichéd or done to death at this point?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
Oh please. Frieza can sing the same exact sad song Vegeta did about how his father (King Cold) forced him to be living weapon against his will to appease Beerus or some other tripe and deep down Frieza's not so bad because he never really wanted to be evil.zarmack wrote:There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.ABED wrote:But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?zarmack wrote:
He was (and kinda still is) a sociopath, which is a (relatively) watered-down version of psychopathy.
It all comes in a spectrum which we all fall in, from pathological altruism (Gohan, Cabba), to mild hysteria (Chichi, Bulma and Goku), to standard sociopathy (most U7 Saiyans) to complete psychopathy (Freeza, Zamasu).
This is Tien/Piccolo/Vegeta/Good Buu all over again.
Each time there was a common thread which brought them together as unlikely allies and it was a stronger opponent they both had to face.
Piccolo teams with Goku to fight Raditz.
Vegeta teamed with Z fighters to fight Frieza.
Good Buu teamed with the Z fighters to fight Evil buus.
There's literally no reason Vegeta can get redemption but Frieza can't. Their backstories could be almost identical.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
I wouldn't call them identical, nor are character motivations all about backstory. Vegeta has a different psychology than Freeza. Both are power lusters, but Vegeta is a martial artist. He wants to be the best martial artist. Freeza doesn't care. He wants control and likes dominating people. I have a much easier time buying someone realizing they want to be the best fighter they can be and let go of their need to have others acknowledge it than I do someone giving up their desire to hurt people for the sake of hurting them.
We know little about Tenshinhan, but he was young enough that I can buy him not far enough along becoming an assassin that he doesn't need much to bring him into the light. Piccolo Jr. is a reincarnated former demon. Good Buu is literally the Buu that's left over after he spit out his evil side, much like Kami was. Hardly a conscious choice to be good.
We know little about Tenshinhan, but he was young enough that I can buy him not far enough along becoming an assassin that he doesn't need much to bring him into the light. Piccolo Jr. is a reincarnated former demon. Good Buu is literally the Buu that's left over after he spit out his evil side, much like Kami was. Hardly a conscious choice to be good.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
In the Buu saga, Majin Vegeta basically explained why he was an asshole to Bulma and both versions of Trunks in the Android arc. He felt ashamed of his feelings for them since he thought they were unfitting for a warrior like himself. The fact that he completely lost his mind after Cell killed Future Trunks showed that he did have some fatherly care towards him the whole time, he was just in denial of it back then.ABED wrote:Agreed, but he also doesn't show the slightest concern for Bulma and baby Trunks' well being when they are almost killed.zarmack wrote:Vegeta killing Nappa was basically an honor kill. He thought Nappa looked weak and pathetic begging for mercy and help after Goku stomped him, which was disgraceful in Vegeta's eyes.ABED wrote:I think you are making up moments to justify categorizing Vegeta. Freeza is definitely a psychopath. However, we see so little of Vegeta's past and what we see out of him from when we first see him isn't someone who is struggling with his emotions. He kills Nappa without a second thought. Just based on the amount of time they've spent together and being the last of their race, that should show a bond, but there's none. It's only during the late Cell arc when we see genuine empathy. Before then, there's not a hint of it.
I might be walking my first point back a little as I agree that Vegeta is more of a sociopath than psychopath, but I don't agree with the reasons you've stated.
What roads can Freeza go down that aren't clichéd or done to death at this point?
As for Freeza, well could be something like a Hisoka or Lex Luther type villain since we'd never had anything like that in Dragonball. Not reforming in the slightest, but sticks around none the less.
Re: Freeza is a good character now?
I'm almost sure Freeza will get redeemed at some point if they intend to keep the character around forever, but it would be extremely poor writing after Namek, the start of the Android arc, ResF (especially ResF) and the ToP made it a point that he's nothing more than a self-serving piece of shit. If he were to be redeemed competently, then it should have happened ages ago.TheMikado wrote:Oh please. Frieza can sing the same exact sad song Vegeta did about how his father (King Cold) forced him to be living weapon against his will to appease Beerus or some other tripe and deep down Frieza's not so bad because he never really wanted to be evil.zarmack wrote:There difference between Vegeta and Freeza is that while Vegeta for most of his life intentionally fought off any feelings of empathy, remorse and love because he thought they were beneath him (which is a sign of sociopathy), Freeza on the other hand is flat out innately incapable of feeling these things in the first place (which is the defining sign of psychopathy). He even said so about himself in both the Namek and RoF arcs.ABED wrote: But what about that makes Vegeta more able to become a good guy?
This is Tien/Piccolo/Vegeta/Good Buu all over again.
Each time there was a common thread which brought them together as unlikely allies and it was a stronger opponent they both had to face.
Piccolo teams with Goku to fight Raditz.
Vegeta teamed with Z fighters to fight Frieza.
Good Buu teamed with the Z fighters to fight Evil buus.
There's literally no reason Vegeta can get redemption but Frieza can't. Their backstories could be almost identical.
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Re: Freeza is a good character now?
We never see this denial. Losing it after Trunks' death is the first time we see any sort of empathy for him. There's no indication that he's pushing down any feelings. We're told, but we're never SHOWN.The fact that he completely lost his mind after Cell killed Future Trunks showed that he did have some fatherly care towards him the whole time, he was just in denial of it back then.
Any time villains are kept around, they have to become something of a good guy or else they loose their luster as they slowly become Saturday morning cartoon villains.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.