The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
XanatosVanBadass
Banned
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:16 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Dragon Ball is in it's renaissance period and it is the biggest it has ever been.
Dragon Ball's renaissance period (when it was critically and creatively firing on all cylinders) was roughly 1987 to 1991 or so: its commercial peak (when it was at its all time most popular ever) was 1991 through 1994-ish or so.

What we're in today is Dragon Ball's rough equivalent of decades-belated TV revivals like Rosanne and such (albeit without a key member of its staff having a racist Twitter meltdown). Is it doing fantastic numbers? Of course it is. Is it out there in the public zeitgeist again? Most definitely. Is it anywhere near the creative or commercial peaks of its heyday? I would argue no way. Its got MASSIVELY more awareness in the West than it used to in its original day (thanks to the FUNimation dub and the Cartoon Network anime phenomenon it spawned), but beyond that, I wouldn't say that anything we've been seeing from it is some sort of game changing new high water mark for the series.

From what I'm seeing in the Western fanbase, what a lot of the excitement and buzz is coming from is the sheer novelty of "Oh my god, shiny new toy!" If there's one thing that Western DB fandom was positively PRIMED for for YEARS now, its been this burning desire to be present for witnessing a present-day, modern launching of brand new Dragon Ball material.

The reasons for why that is are very bizarre and hard to simplify in a few short words: essentially there is this utterly weird obsession in modern anime fandom (as a broader whole beyond just that of Dragon Ball) of the last decade now with keeping up on being at the forefront of the bleeding-edge pulse of what is freshly brand new and hot out of the oven in Japan right this very second. I personally think that its a combination of that along with the on some level subconscious knowledge most Western DB fandom has had for awhile now that Dragon Ball was NEVER as "new" a thing as it was hyped and presented as in America during the dub's debut on Toonami (obviously 80s and early 90s production, the ever-presence of "spoilers" online of a show that had obviously been LONG ago finished for years by that point).

Look at phenomenon like FUNimation's Orange Brick "remastering" and the Western fandom's embracing of it (in some corners at least): there's always been this weird longing in U.S. fandom for DB to forever be frozen in time as "the new hotness of the moment". The presence of new DB material I think is scratching this LONG heavy and ever-present itch that's been burning away at the Western end of the fanbase for some time now (at least since the mid-2000s or so).

Right now we're still in the honeymoon period of this "Dragon Ball as the shiny new toy" that U.S. fans have always wanted it to forever remain as and that Super and the revival material are finally letting them bask in: I find it VERY doubtful that very much of its material (other than a few core concepts here and there like Beerus and Zamasu perhaps) are going to stand the test of time in much the same ways as most of the original series run has.

But that last part's obviously just a guess on my part: we'll just have to wait and see ultimately.
Yeah, making predictions like that doesn’t always work out. I didn’t think I’d see anyone nostalgic for the Prequel trilogy, yet here we are. The generation that grew up with that considers it THEIR Star Wars. Likewise, I never thought Star Trek Voyager had fans that would look on that as the best Trek ever! Fuck TOS! Yet, here we are.

Finally, bringing it back to Dragon Ball, I recall a time when the FUNi dub was hit with near universal derision and to defend it was the ultimate blasphemy! Along comes Kai and online fans want the glory days of the old voices and the Faulcnor soundtrack.

The lesson here is fans will still love and defend to the death the specific thing that made them fall in love with a franchise. And like it or not, Super (along with Kai) brought in a ton of new young fans. They’ll probably see Jiren or Hit the way us older fans see Paikuhan.

As for you’re point about western anime fans needing to see the latest shiny thing from Japan? I think you’re not looking at the bigger picture. Modern fans want things right this second simply because we can now. It’s not like it was back in the day where we had to wait 5+ years to get a hit series from Japan. The internet and simulcasting have made this miracle a reality. Frankly, it’s a good thing that I can watch a show at the same time as a friend in Japan and chat about it right after.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:48 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:Yeah, making predictions like that doesn’t always work out. I didn’t think I’d see anyone nostalgic for the Prequel trilogy, yet here we are. The generation that grew up with that considers it THEIR Star Wars. Likewise, I never thought Star Trek Voyager had fans that would look on that as the best Trek ever! Fuck TOS! Yet, here we are.

Finally, bringing it back to Dragon Ball, I recall a time when the FUNi dub was hit with near universal derision and to defend it was the ultimate blasphemy! Along comes Kai and online fans want the glory days of the old voices and the Faulcnor soundtrack.

The lesson here is fans will still love and defend to the death the specific thing that made them fall in love with a franchise. And like it or not, Super (along with Kai) brought in a ton of new young fans.
All very true and great points, particularly in the nostalgia driven culture we've been in for some time now. I've spoken myself before about how the Western anime landscape had taken turns over the years that I certainly NEVER in a million years would've seen coming. I'm certainly not Nostradamus clearly. :P

I still stand by the majority of my post overall, but yeah I should probably walk back that last prediction, particularly in light of all the bizarre pop cultural holdovers that have stubbornly "stuck" over the course of the 2000s despite all else.

*coughpokemoncough*
XanatosVanBadass wrote:They’ll probably see Jiren or Hit the way us older fans see Paikuhan.
I got nothing particularly against Paikuhan myself (he's perfectly alright for what he is), but is he really THAT much of a thing in any corners of DB fandom? Other than among fans of the Budokai game series (who seemed particularly taken with him back in the day) I can't call to mind any major contingent of die hard Paikuhan fanboys. :eh:
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
XanatosVanBadass wrote:They’ll probably see Jiren or Hit the way us older fans see Paikuhan.
I got nothing particularly against Paikuhan myself (he's perfectly alright for what he is), but is he really THAT much of a thing in any corners of DB fandom? Other than among fans of the Budokai game series (who seemed particularly taken with him back in the day) I can't call to mind any other particular contingent of die hard Paikuhan fanboys. :eh:
Haha, I was thinking the same thing. I mean, unless it's to say that I see Paikuhan as not terribly interesting and very overhyped in which case, yeah, I do hope the younger generation sees Jiren and Hit the same way. :lol:
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:19 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Haha, I was thinking the same thing. I mean, unless it's to say that I see Paikuhan as not terribly interesting and very overhyped in which case, yeah, I do hope the younger generation sees Jiren and Hit the same way. :lol:
I mean don't get me wrong: I don't DISLIKE Paikuhan either. He's just not that major or prominent enough of a character to have particularly strong feelings about one way or the other.

He's a relatively minor filler character who serves as fodder for Goku's post-Cell Game afterlife training. He has a solid and striking enough design, and some cool elemental-based techniques. He's not very developed or fleshed out beyond the barebones basics, but he doesn't need to be: he serves his role well enough as a tough challenger for Goku in the afterlife material.

Not EVERY character can be (nor should be expected to be) some font of endless literary depth. Especially in a whimsical martial arts fantasy serial: some characters are just never meant to be anything more than cool opponents for the main characters to face, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I certainly also think that Hit works perfectly fine also in a similar regard. Of all my issues with Super, Hit is hardly among them: he's fine mostly, again for what he is.

Jiren on the other hand: he's hardly presented or positioned as any ordinary fist fodder. He's a main arc villain: WHOLE different set of standards for him to meet, as he's supposed to help support the dramatic tension and central conflict of an entire major storyline.

He's not simply a fun diversion, he's supposed to be a major key figure in the plot. So Jiren's a WHOLE different ballgame from minor fighters like King Chapa or Giran or whatnot (who mainly just need to look cool, have fun and interesting fighting styles and techniques, and at least some basic "hook" to their character premise keep them at least memorable and fun). And without going down a whole other tangent with him, Jiren certainly ain't no Freeza. Or hell, not even Cell or Boo. To put it mildly.

My main source of confusion here with Xanatos' post was just the idea that an otherwise minor filler character like Paikuhan had some ravenous fan base who holds him up in high regard ala guys like Broli or Gogeta/Vegetto.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:*snip*
That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

User avatar
8000 Saiyan
I Live Here
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:03 am

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:35 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
2. Where's Raditz? You'd think in a movie about Bardock, that his own son would at least make a cameo, but that doesn't happen. Hell, he's not even mentioned by name!

...

4. I just can't get behind Nozawa voicing Bardock. I mean, yeah, he is Goku's dad and looks exactly like Goku, but I think this would have been the time were some vocal differentiation would have appreciated.
I agree with both of these. One could argue that Bardock not even acknowledging Raditz by name is in keeping with his character (I mean, he had a pretty, "Eh, whatever, I don't care"-attitude towards Goku's birth, so why would it be any different with Raditz?). At the same time, I think it would have been nice for there to have been either a brief line or a brief scene dealing with Raditz somehow.

Which brings me to your fourth point.

I think the perfect voice for Bardock would have been Shigeru Chiba, the voice of Raditz. It's not that Nozawa did a bad job--she didn't--but between Bardock's villainous personality and my longing for Raditz to be brought into the equation somehow, I think Chiba's voice would have been a better fit for a more villainous and dark character like Bardock. Being Raditz's father, it would also make total sense for him to have that voice anyway.

EDIT: Well, turns out I wasn't the only one with that idea. I don't like the "adjusted pitch" used in this video though, I think the original pitch worked just fine!

Great stuff, Lord Beerus!
If you want my honest opinion, I would have preferred Akira Kamiya instead of Shigeru Chiba. His Kenshiro would have fit so well. I don't think Chiba would have made any real differences between his Raditz or Bardock.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:39 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:*snip*
That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
His personality is fun, he had some good moments with both Super Boo and Zamasu. I'd say there's nothing to like about Gogeta considering he had like 2 lines, but here we are in 2018 and everyone is asking for his appearance. I feel people just like the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing rather than the character itself.

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:16 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
2. Where's Raditz? You'd think in a movie about Bardock, that his own son would at least make a cameo, but that doesn't happen. Hell, he's not even mentioned by name!

...

4. I just can't get behind Nozawa voicing Bardock. I mean, yeah, he is Goku's dad and looks exactly like Goku, but I think this would have been the time were some vocal differentiation would have appreciated.
I agree with both of these. One could argue that Bardock not even acknowledging Raditz by name is in keeping with his character (I mean, he had a pretty, "Eh, whatever, I don't care"-attitude towards Goku's birth, so why would it be any different with Raditz?). At the same time, I think it would have been nice for there to have been either a brief line or a brief scene dealing with Raditz somehow.

Which brings me to your fourth point.

I think the perfect voice for Bardock would have been Shigeru Chiba, the voice of Raditz. It's not that Nozawa did a bad job--she didn't--but between Bardock's villainous personality and my longing for Raditz to be brought into the equation somehow, I think Chiba's voice would have been a better fit for a more villainous and dark character like Bardock. Being Raditz's father, it would also make total sense for him to have that voice anyway.

EDIT: Well, turns out I wasn't the only one with that idea. I don't like the "adjusted pitch" used in this video though, I think the original pitch worked just fine!

Great stuff, Lord Beerus!
If you want my honest opinion, I would have preferred Akira Kamiya instead of Shigeru Chiba. His Kenshiro would have fit so well. I don't think Chiba would have made any real differences between his Raditz or Bardock.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't have minded that since he's Raditz's father. Indeed, it would make sense for there to be not much of a difference. He's far closer to Raditz personality-wise anyway than Goku anyway, and the identical voices would have a built-in explanation: genetics.

That said, I'm not married to that idea, and I could see Akira Kamiya working as well.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:57 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
His personality is fun, he had some good moments with both Super Boo and Zamasu. I'd say there's nothing to like about Gogeta considering he had like 2 lines, but here we are in 2018 and everyone is asking for his appearance. I feel people just like the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing rather than the character itself.
Gonna second Doctor on this one. Vegetto has gotten plenty of limelight for a fusion character. Fusion characters in general exist effectively to serve as combat tools for the characters to use in a fight anyway: their very nature makes it hard to "develop" them too much a great deal as fully fleshed out individuals. Nonetheless though, Vegetto in the original series had a very memorable and lengthy fight against Super Boo where he got to show off all manner of fun/cool techniques, as well as a lot of brash personality. And in Super he got a second go of it in a similarly standout fight. Vegetto's fanbase makes more or less total sense, and I like the character a fair bit myself (at least as far as fusion characters go).

Gogeta on the other hand... yeah, he's BARELY an entity in the series, given how painfully little screentime he's had overall. Not counting the upcoming Broli movie, all it amounts to is less than a minute at the tail-end of Movie 12 and a single episode of GT. The Movie 12 bit is gorgeously animated at least (fleeting a climax to a larger fight as it is), and the GT episode at least gave him a BIT more to do overall. But still, next to Vegetto, Gogeta comes across more as a brief novelty than as an especially noteworthy fighter.

I guess we'll have to see what the new Broli movie does with him, but its entirely possible it won't be much more than what Movie 12 used him as: a climactic winning trump card for Goku and Vegeta to pull out to finally take down Broli at the very end. I personally wouldn't mind Gogeta being used for something more than just that in the movie of course (like with Paikuhan, its not like I have anything AGAINST Gogeta or anything), but that's neither here nor there ultimately.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4125
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:13 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
It's because he's OP and never gets beaten up (in the comic, haven't seen all of Super).

I'm not saying I agree, but strength and Vs. Records are a factor some people like a character.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:56 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
His personality is fun, he had some good moments with both Super Boo and Zamasu. I'd say there's nothing to like about Gogeta considering he had like 2 lines, but here we are in 2018 and everyone is asking for his appearance. I feel people just like the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing rather than the character itself.
Gonna second Doctor on this one. Vegetto has gotten plenty of limelight for a fusion character. Fusion characters in general exist effectively to serve as combat tools for the characters to use in a fight anyway: their very nature makes it hard to "develop" them too much a great deal as fully fleshed out individuals. Nonetheless though, Vegetto in the original series had a very memorable and lengthy fight against Super Boo where he got to show off all manner of fun/cool techniques, as well as a lot of brash personality. And in Super he got a second go of it in a similarly standout fight. Vegetto's fanbase makes more or less total sense, and I like the character a fair bit myself (at least as far as fusion characters go).
Diet Gotenks. That's my basic summary of Vegetto. Everything Vegetto is, everything Vegetto does is what we've already seen Gotenks do and more interestingly. Gotenks has more personality and has more interesting techniques. By the time Vegetto shows up, the fight has begun to drag, and so the fact that he feels so redundant on top of that makes his stint a huge slog for me, especially in the anime where it's extended far too long. It's funny this came up today because I've been doing a watch through of the franchise. I just finished Vegetto today. It took me literally *months* to get through the handful of episodes featuring him because I find them so underwhelming. There is exactly one unique thing that Vegetto does that makes him memorable and fun to me, and that's fighting as a piece of candy. And that does not last very long.

As for his fight in Super... I don't remember a single thing about it. That's as much of an impression it left on me. The only thing I remember about the concept is being annoyed that he was being brought back for fanservice, and that in order to facilitate said fanservice, the only thing that made Potara unique and dramatically interesting was being retconned.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:01 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:
That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
It's because he's OP and never gets beaten up (in the comic, haven't seen all of Super).

I'm not saying I agree, but strength and Vs. Records are a factor some people like a character.
He gets seriously challenged by Fused Zamasu in the Super anime, but crushes him even easier than he did Buu in the Super manga.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:11 pm

Diet Gotenks. That's my basic summary of Vegetto. Everything Vegetto is, everything Vegetto does is what we've already seen Gotenks do and more interestingly. Gotenks has more personality and has more interesting techniques. By the time Vegetto shows up, the fight has begun to drag, and so the fact that he feels so redundant on top of that makes his stint a huge slog for me, especially in the anime where it's extended far too long. It's funny this came up today because I've been doing a watch through of the franchise. I just finished Vegetto today. It took me literally *months* to get through the handful of episodes featuring him because I find them so underwhelming. There is exactly one unique thing that Vegetto does that makes him memorable and fun to me, and that's fighting as a piece of candy. And that does not last very long.
I feel the exact opposite. The stuff with Gotenks is an absolute slog and lasts a whole hell of a lot longer. It goes on and on and on and on and on... wait, let me finish... and on and on and on... It doesn't help that not for a second did I believe Gotenks would win the battle so it all feels like a complete waste of time.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4125
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:42 pm

Yeah from an out-of-universe perspective you knew Gotenks wasn't going to win because Toriyama still had the Mystic Gohan subplot to use. The fight does drag but I liked the gags and the chemistry between Buu, Piccolo and Gotenks.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:
That is basically what I was saying too. Although, since you brought him up, throw Vegetto onto that pile too. I can't for the life of me figure out what anybody finds even remotely compelling about that character.
It's because he's OP and never gets beaten up (in the comic, haven't seen all of Super).

I'm not saying I agree, but strength and Vs. Records are a factor some people like a character.
He gets seriously challenged by Fused Zamasu in the Super anime, but crushes him even easier than he did Buu in the Super manga.
Huh. Didn't realise the manga was different from the anime. Maybe I should check it out? Would be less time consuming.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:49 am

Kid Buu wrote:Huh. Didn't realise the manga was different from the anime. Maybe I should check it out? Would be less time consuming.
Its an alternate continuity, meaning there are a lot of similar beats between it and the anime but how they happen & connect tends to differ to varying degrees.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
ShadowBardock89
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1365
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:40 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:50 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Dragon Ball is in it's renaissance period and it is the biggest it has ever been.
Dragon Ball's renaissance period (when it was critically and creatively firing on all cylinders) was roughly 1987 to 1991 or so: its commercial peak (when it was at its all time most popular ever) was 1991 through 1994-ish or so.
Image

"Renaissance" means "rebirth" in Italian. How can something have a renaissance period DURING its classic period?

We arguably have been in Dragon Ball's "Renaissance" period since 2008, staring with Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!.
Though, I will concede with Kai being the staring point.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=40715&start=20#p1439892
http://dba.bn-ent.net/character/barduck.html
https://i.imgur.com/86hOk5i.gif

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:40 pm

ShadowBardock89 wrote:"Renaissance" means "rebirth" in Italian. How can something have a renaissance period DURING its classic period?

We arguably have been in Dragon Ball's "Renaissance" period since 2008, staring with Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!.
Though, I will concede with Kai being the staring point.
Totally correct and fair (though I'd still hardly call almost any of the revival material worthy of lofty stature).
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:57 pm

Doctor. wrote:Even if we take this to be true, you're still ignoring the sheer amount of garbage concentrated in Z filler, Z movies, GT, Heroes and the videogames.
Wait what the hell is wrong with the video games?

Well I guess I disagree with the very premise of it even being a reasonable comparison to say "the bad outweighs the good" because I don't see it as productive to even weigh the bad against the good in the first place. Let's just pretend that Super didn't exist or anything post 2013 that we know for that matter. Obviously GT is crap, obviously the Z movies are crap. Now let's further pretend that they continued to make like 20 more Z movies that were all crap or even worse and now most of the DB products are just poor products. STILL, the original manga isn't any less compelling, DB and DBZ aren't any less good.(or to a lesser extent the original DB movies) The "new" crap doesn't take away from anything that Toriyama did in his original story. If Dragon Ball eventually has more bad products than good ones, it doesn't mean that the franchise shouldn't have ever existed because you can just ignore anything that you don't like within the franchise.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Doctor. » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:30 am

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Even if we take this to be true, you're still ignoring the sheer amount of garbage concentrated in Z filler, Z movies, GT, Heroes and the videogames.
Wait what the hell is wrong with the video games?

Well I guess I disagree with the very premise of it even being a reasonable comparison to say "the bad outweighs the good" because I don't see it as productive to even weigh the bad against the good in the first place. Let's just pretend that Super didn't exist or anything post 2013 that we know for that matter. Obviously GT is crap, obviously the Z movies are crap. Now let's further pretend that they continued to make like 20 more Z movies that were all crap or even worse and now most of the DB products are just poor products. STILL, the original manga isn't any less compelling, DB and DBZ aren't any less good.(or to a lesser extent the original DB movies) The "new" crap doesn't take away from anything that Toriyama did in his original story. If Dragon Ball eventually has more bad products than good ones, it doesn't mean that the franchise shouldn't have ever existed because you can just ignore anything that you don't like within the franchise.
Obviously not, you took me and ekrolo too seriously. "Dragon Ball was a mistake" is a meme based on Miyazaki's quote "Anime was a mistake. It's nothing but trash."

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:42 am

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Even if we take this to be true, you're still ignoring the sheer amount of garbage concentrated in Z filler, Z movies, GT, Heroes and the videogames.
Wait what the hell is wrong with the video games?

Well I guess I disagree with the very premise of it even being a reasonable comparison to say "the bad outweighs the good" because I don't see it as productive to even weigh the bad against the good in the first place. Let's just pretend that Super didn't exist or anything post 2013 that we know for that matter. Obviously GT is crap, obviously the Z movies are crap. Now let's further pretend that they continued to make like 20 more Z movies that were all crap or even worse and now most of the DB products are just poor products. STILL, the original manga isn't any less compelling, DB and DBZ aren't any less good.(or to a lesser extent the original DB movies) The "new" crap doesn't take away from anything that Toriyama did in his original story. If Dragon Ball eventually has more bad products than good ones, it doesn't mean that the franchise shouldn't have ever existed because you can just ignore anything that you don't like within the franchise.
Obviously not, you took me and ekrolo too seriously. "Dragon Ball was a mistake" is a meme based on Miyazaki's quote "Anime was a mistake. It's nothing but trash."
Eh it didnt come off as anything other than serious

Post Reply