The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

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The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Okay, so my original plan was to cover all of the TV specials, OVA's and other originally animated offerings that Dragon Ball had produced that didn't count as movies. But with the recent release of the second trailer of the Dragon Ball Super movie, and the intense debates over the inclusion of Dragon Ball Minus, Toriyama's re-imaging of Toei's original TV special of Bardock, I thought to give Bardock's stories their own "assessment".

So let's do this.

===

A Final Solitary Battle ~The Z Warrior Kakarotto's Father Challenges Freeza~:
Bardock. Oh, Bardock. Before he was exploited by Toei in later material, he was quite a unique original character.

In this TV special, we don't get the usual hero's journey, or the usual villain pulling a heel/face turn, like Dragon Ball is mostly accustomed to. We get the story of a random, lowly, planet conquering, blood knight Saiyan who tries to fight fate, but ultimately fails, horribly dies a terrible death along with 99% of his race. And that random, lowly, planet conquering, blood knight Saiyan also happens to Goku's father. And that's the beauty of this story. Not just the fact that work extremely well as tragedy, but the fact the story doesn't try to consistently highlight that Bardock is Goku's father. This TV special wants to stand on its own two feet as its own unique story with its unique central character, and triumphs greatly because of that.

Bardock is not a paragon of justice. He's not an unscrupulous hero. Hell, he's not even an anti-hero. He's... well... a villain. And trying to write a story from the point of view of a villain has never really been attempted in Dragon Ball, at least in stand-alone works. Which just makes this TV special stand out even more. But what clinches this piece of Dragon Ball media as particularly special is how well it pulls off in making Bardock a sympathetic character, without coming across as trite and/or forced.

Despite knowing what is going to happen to his race -- through pretty contrived circumstances -- Bardock doesn't compromise his original personality. He doesn't become a better person. Hell, one of the notable scenes in the TV special is him dismissing his newborn son because of his low power level. And that scene in itself would work wonders for the dramatic irony that would later ensue with Bardock's visions, and services as a great further highlight of the underlying theme of the Saiyan arc -- being that fighters of a lower class can surpass elite fighters if they work hard enough.

There's no epiphany that leads to a significant shift in characterization, there's no redemption, there's no last gasp victory, there's no heroic second wind. There's just one Saiyan, who knows the terrible outcome for himself, his family and his people, and tries to fight a fate that he knows deep down he can't change. And in his last moments, he's given a vision of his son Kakarot, challenging the mighty tyrant that betrayed him and committed mass genocide against his race just for the idea that the Saiyans could one day overpower him. And he dies with a smile on his face, knowing that there is the chance that not just any Saiyan, but his son, the very same son he dismissed for his low battle power, could avenge his race. That is... so powerful. And so poignant.

In a story -- that Toriyama himself said was too dark to be something he'd write -- we see Dragon Ball tell its first story where Goku is a completely minor character and in a contemporary dark setting where the ending is already long decided... and it's magnificent. Bardock works as such a strong, tragic protagonist, that we can root for despite recognizing that he's not a perfect man. He's an evil person that is fighting a much larger evil. He's not staging an uprising for political reasons, like looking to usurp power and gain control of an empire. He's not trying to pull a Starscream.

Instead, the centre of the conflict is born from Bardock's comrades being tricked and murdered by Freeza's orders, with plans of mass genocide of the entire Saiyan race being in order, purely because they were too good at what they were doing. And Bardock reacting to this revelation by deciding to fight back, knowing there's nothing he can do to prevent anything Freeza is planning from being carried out carries such wonderful pathos that is so rare in Dragon Ball storytelling. It's made even better by the fact the even when Bardock spells out what is going to happen to his fellow Saiyans, he's immediately laughed at and dismissed, and despite that, he doesn't compromise and still faces the impossible challenge of trying to change his fate, even if he has to do it all by himself. It all feels like a classic Greek tragedy.

I do have one major issue with the TV special: Bardock's battle power. I find it very dumb that a "low class" warrior-like Bardock would end up having a power level of 10,000 considering that an elite warrior like Nappa is not even half as strong as him. How can Bardock be considered a low-class fighter when he's more than twice as strong as a person who's considered to be an elite Saiyan fighter? It becomes an even bigger issue when Bardock cuts through Freeza's army, whose average battle power is much stronger than Bardock's, like a hot knife through butter. The whole scenario is fucking stupid and nearly undermines the whole image of Bardock being a low-class nobody.

There are four additional issues I have with the TV special:

1. The method by which Bardock receives his psychic abilities are quite contrived. I understand that there needs to be a plot happening, but I never would have thought that striking some on the head would them the ability to see into the future.

2. Where's Raditz? You'd think in a movie about Bardock, that his son would at least make a cameo, but that doesn't happen. Hell, he's not even mentioned by name!

3. Bardock's comrades share no personality between the four of them. Which make it more apparent that they exist solely for Bardock to renegade against Freeza and his lackeys.

4. I just can't get behind Nozawa voicing Bardock. I mean, yeah, he is Goku's dad and looks exactly like Goku, but I think this would have been the time where some vocal differentiation would have been appreciated.

While those fours issues are not as big as Bardock's Battle Power, there are still problems I have with the TV special that drag it down slightly. But even with the issues I've listed, none of them takes away from how fantastic this TV special is. And I haven't even talked about great the TV special looks. Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru does such an amazing job as Animation Director that you wish he'd done all the movies and TV specials, as well as more of the episodes of the anime. Not to mention this TV special give us the sensational song "Solid State Scouter" from the Japanese pop/rock band TOKIO. And I really can't overstate how much that song fucking rocks.

Writing prequels can be very difficult. Because often prequels can fall into trap of deciding to spend time on a character that was popular in the main (and continued) setting of the story, rather than developing their own story or just basically be glorified exposition dumps for the sake of trying to expand the universe of the story. This TV special not only works extremely well as a story in its own right but also seamlessly fits into the main plot of the story. This TV special is, in my opinion, one of the most well-written pieces of Dragon Ball content you'll ever come across. It's dark, tragic, has a well written central character and manages to be a prequel that tells its own story with being tied down to what happened afterwards.

But the best thing about this is the whole scenario is that three years later, Toei would somehow outdo themselves with another TV special concerning another side character. But that's a story for another time.

9.5/10

===

Episode of Bardock:
Fuck. This. Story. 0/10

Alright, alright. I'll cover it in more detail.

In a time when new Dragon Ball content was few and far in between, I never thought in my wildest dreams that out of all the characters and concepts in the Dragon Ball mythos to expand upon, the Powers That Be chose Bardock as an avenue for spinning out a new yarn. Considering Bardock had his own already very satisfactory TV special, where he was the focal point, I don't understand why it was necessary to open the door again on Bardock's narrative. Yes, I know this story is a "what-if" sequel to the TV special, but I still have to take into consideration the implications this movie creates within the context of its narrative. And the implications are... not good.

Right of the bat, we get treated to a flashback of when Bardock confronts Freeza. And straight away the issues become very apparent. Instead of Freeza watching on silently and preparing his giant death ball attack that will kill Bardock and destroy Planet Vegeta, as Bardock confronts him, Freeza speaks to Bardock and gloat about how he had planned to kill all of the Saiyans to prevent the Legendary Super Saiyan from happening.

No, no, no.

Part of what made the TV special work so well was Bardock was portrayed as a nobody from the beginning of the story to the end. Even when he dared to stand up to Freeza, against all the odds, Freeza didn't bother to acknowledge Bardock and just went ahead with his plan to kill all the Saiyans and destroy Planet Vegeta. That's what makes Bardock's last stand so poignant and unique. From Bardock's perspective, this is some grand final stand against a tyrant, with the idea that he can change the fate of himself, his son and his race. But for Freeza, it's just Tuesday. It may seem like a minute detail, but those kinds of minute details can play a huge difference in the complexity of your story.

Speaking in regards to complexity in the story, let's talk about the premise of the plot, because, good Lord, is it stupid. So instead of being killed by Freeza's death ball, Bardock is somehow sent back in time and is relocated to Planet Plant. Which also happens to be the same planet that the Saiyans would eventually colonise and turn into Planet Vegeta. He fights Freeza's ancestor Chilled, and then Bardock becomes not just any Super Saiyan, but THE Super Saiyan. As in, the Super Saiyan that would be talked about in Dragon Ball folklore and eventually lead to Freeza committing mass genocide against the Saiyans because of it. I lost about 15 IQ points from typing that out.

Aesthetically speaking, this movie is... acceptable. It has that annoying plastic action figure look that would plague modern Dragon Ball until the Universal Survival arc. But the animated cut of when Bardock becomes a SSJ is pretty damn good looking.

I also don't like how Episode Of Bardock decides to give Bardock the "hero's journey". In the sense that his personality softens up due to his interactions with inhabitants of Planet Plant, and Berry specifically. Godammit, no. Again, what made the original TV special work was that Bardock never went through any shift in personality, despite the visions he experienced. Having the trigger for Bardock becoming a SSJ being based around Berry getting hurt, a character that has zero personality and has the most thinly veiled relationship imaginable, just make Bardock into generic Shonen anti-hero #6739. Something he never was, and never should have become.

There is such a fundamental misunderstanding of Bardock's character and story that permeates throughout Episode Of Bardock. Part of what makes Bardock special is that he's not special. He lives as a nobody and dies as a nobody. Having Bardock live through the events of the TV special, and then become THE Super Saiyan of legend -- which in itself kick starts the entire plot of Dragon Ball -- completely undermines everything about Bardock's story before that. Episode Of Bardock give Bardock the prestige of becoming the most important character in all of Dragon Ball.

No, no, no.

What makes Bardock stand out as a character is that he has no bearing on the story. He doesn't change anything despite knowing exactly what going to happen to him. That's part of the great tragedy of the character and his story. And Episode Of Bardock completely disregards that in favour of fanservice with no substance. It also has an extensional effect on Goku's character growth but implying that Goku's path to power and great strength was less due to him working hard and more to his special lineage.

I know there are a lot of people that say this story shouldn't be taken seriously. And I know it may even seem a bit unfair to review this story given the very apparent corporate-mandated obligation behind the conception of this story. But at the end of the day, I need to judge this for what it's worth. And for what it's worth... Episode Of Bardock is fucking awful. If not for Dragon Ball Minus, I'd say this is the worst portrayal of Bardock's character.

Fuck. This. Story.

0/10

===

Ah, what the hell. Let's throw in Minus as well and get it over with.

Dragon Ball −(Minus) The Departure of the Fated Child:
*sigh*

You know, when I first heard the news about Toriyama proving a short story revealing Goku's mother, my initial reaction was, "Did we need this?" It felt quite inconsequential to reopen the chapter of Goku's family, as I felt that Toriyama and Toei had already done an adequate job of exploring the dynamic of Goku's relationship with his pure-blooded Saiyan kin. Raditz provided the earth-shattering reveal that Goku was an alien that was sent to Earth to conquer it, kill all its species and sell it off to the highest bidder for Freeza's planet trading empire. And Bardock's TV special -- despite being quite isolated in the grand scheme of Dragon Ball's plot -- provided the more than satisfactory plot infused backstory that set up the wonderfully cathartic overreaching theme concerning the dynamic between Goku and Freeza and their battle on Namek. But perhaps the introduction of Gine could provide the same wonderful pathos as the TV special or unveil a significant new part of lore that we didn't previously about.

*sigh*

Dragon Ball Minus suffers in many aspects. The biggest being that, well, there's really no story being told. As much as it pains me to say this, Episode Of Bardock, as offensively bad as that was, has some kind of narrative to at least elicit your attention on a surface level. Dragon Ball Minus only provides the most bare-bones of context imaginable regarding what it wants to cover. Mainly being that Goku had a mother, Goku was sent of to Earth by Bardock for his safety, and that Freeza was planning on destroying the Saiyans out of fear of their power. Two of those apsects was already covered in the Bardock TV special, so it begs the question of why that information needed to be regurgitated.

This leaves us with the sole "original" aspect that this side-story can provide... Goku's mother. Now, what do know about Goku's mother. Her name is Gine and she's Bardock's wife. That's it. There's is nothing compelling about Gine -- the main selling point of this entire side story -- for the reader to grab onto and be invested in. I can honestly say without exaggeration that Gine isn't even a character. She's just exists to provide the vindication to the fans(?) who have been pinning over the years to know what Goku's mother looked like. And after all these years, we got an answer... and I couldn't be anymore underwhelmed.

But what about Gine's partner, Bardock. Well, this is where shit get's really messy. We're introduced to Bardock fighting on an alien planet. Keep in mind, I use the term "introduced" rather than "reintroduced". Because the Bardock we see in Dragon Ball Minus is fundamentally a different characterization to what the 1990 TV special provided. In the TV special, we're provided a character who thrives in combat, doesn't think much of maternal or paternal bonds, places stocks in battle powers, but still has the foresight to think of what's best for his race -- given how he desperately tries to to warn them of Freeza's plans to kill them all -- and has some kind of pride in those of his comrades, given how he battles to avenge their murder and betrayal. Bardock in Dragon Ball Minus is nothing like his TV counterpart.

And given how Dragon Ball Minus is in itself meant to be a re-imaging of Goku's origins, it's pretty damn vital that you spend the time to build up Bardock's character. Because to some of the audience, they won't know who the hell Bardock is. They're going into this story treating it as a completely new narrative -- as they rightfully should -- because that's what Dragon Ball Minus is... a completely new narrative, with a completely new Bardock. What can be taken away from Dragon Ball Minus about Bardock as a character? Not much. He fights aliens and cares for his kin. It's as one dimensional as you could possibly get. I'm not asking for a fully fleshed out story, but I'd like to get some kind reason to be invested into Bardock's journey, that by proxy, makes Goku's origins all the more interesting to revisit. I mean, Dragon Ball Minus does give Bardock the motive that what he wants to send his son to Earth for his safety, but there isn't enough done within Dragon Ball Minus to empathize with Bardock's character. And that has knock-on effect with how much you can actually give a shit about Bardock doing, well, anything in Dragon Ball Minus.

Additionally, with Bardock's new personality and motivations, significant aspects on the original story, with regards to the revelation for why Goku was sent to Earth initially, have been retroactively altered and introduces three major issues:

1. It makes Goku's origin into a poor man's imitation of Superman's backstory

2. It destroys the wonderfully dramatic irony of how Goku's grows as a person

3. It paints an unflattering image of Raditz's character

Prior to Minus, people often tried to bring about comparisons with Goku and Superman, using their backstory as a point for similarities. But the only real similarities there was between Superman and Goku in terms of their backstories is that they were both sent to Earth as infants. That's it. The similarities between the backstories are extremely superficial at best. Taking Minus into account, the similarities between Goku and Superman's backstories become far more overt than they should have any right to be. Superman was sent to Earth for his own safety following the impending doom that faced his birth planet. In Minus, Bardock, fearing the death of his race and destruction of Planet Vegeta, send his infant child to Earth to ensure his safety. This has such a negative impact on the wonderful dramatic irony of Goku's growth as a character.

For Goku's entire life he dedicated himself to becoming stronger, saving the world from threats, while also forming bonds with all kinds of unique people. Then we get the reveal from Raditz that Goku was meant be a threat to the very world that he ended up protecting from several other threats. It's a reveal that brings about such wonderful dramatic irony for Goku's character. He was a Saiyan sent to Earth with the intention of conquering it and destroying all life on it. But instead, he was the very person who was preventing other threats, otherworldly or not, from conquering the Earth and/or destroying all life on it.

Then there's the fact that the main reason Goku was sent to Earth to even begin with was because he was born with such a low battle power, and to accommodate his lowly status as a Saiyan, he was sent to a backwater trash-level planet like Earth. But it was only because of those circumstances that Goku grew into the person he became and was able to train with the some of the most extraordinary martial artists in the universe and earn the respect of God himself. And it was only because Goku was sent to Earth in the fashion that he was able to continuously prove himself superior to the "elite" class of Saiyan warrior like Vegeta, despite Goku himself being a "low class" Saiyan. Dragon Ball Minus completely shits all over this wonderful twist of fate by having Goku being sent to Earth, not because his goal was the destroy all life on the planet, not because of his low classification as a Saiyan, or even by the fact he's a member of race of blood knights, but out of the concern of his mother and father for the safety of their child. A mother and father that, among their race of blood knights, were unique people for how much their valued and cared for their kin, and also somehow figured out that Freeza was planning something sinister against the Saiyans. It's so goddamn trite and shallow. All of this makes Goku seem too "special". Gone is the fantastic irony of Goku's origins and upbringing, and in its place is a watered down and shameless imitation of Superman's past.

*sigh*

Then there's Raditz. That poor fucker. The reveal of Planet Vegeta being destroyed by a meteor ends up being reconnected into Freeza being the one who destroyed it. Then the reveal that Goku was sent to Earth to conquer it turns out to be a big bag full of shit. However, the big problem that concerns Raditz with the circumstances of Goku being sent to Earth is how he interacts with Goku when he sees him for the first time in many years in the Saiyan arc. Raditz states that Goku should have destroyed all life on the Earth, as that is why he was sent to the planet in the first place. But that's not true at all. And just to make matters even worse, Gine specifically mentions that she would tell Raditz about what was going on with Goku being sent to Earth. But despite all that, Raditz is under the pretence that Goku was sent to Earth to take over the planet, instead of being sent their for his own safety.

Keep in mind, according the events in Dragon Ball Minus, one month passes from the moment Goku is sent to Earth to when Freeza kills all the Saiyans. So it's safe to say that Raditz was told about what was going on with Goku, right? However, given how hostile and indifferent Raditz acts towards Goku for not following through with his original plan was of conquering Earth when he sent there as an infant, it's obvious that Gine never told Raditz about the circumstances of why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place. And because of that lack of basic fucking communication, Raditz got the completely wrong understanding as to why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place, and the confrontation with Goku about that circumstance lead to both Raditz and Goku dying, making the whole point of Goku being sent to Earth for his own safety completely fucking pointless.

Raditz and Goku could have avoided any violent confrontation if Gine, or Bardock for that matter, had bothered to tell Raditz what the fuck was going on with Goku. Instead, Raditz is left in the dark, makes a common accusation based on the circumstances of Saiyans being sent to foreign planets to conquer them and sell them off for Freeza's empire and dies because of poor communication (or lack thereof). Either that, or Raditz was told about what happened to Goku and just forgot. Or perhaps he knew the truth and just didn't care. Which I guess would fall into line with the stupid underlying theme that Dragon Ball Minus is trying to push, being that that Goku's unique character development was more to due with the unique specific family ties he had. Or maybe Raditz is a colossal fucktard. Jesus Christ, this is all so goddamn stupid.

*sigh*

You know, I used to be one of the people that often gave Dragon Ball Minus a bit of a pass in the past because it's only 16 pages. But then three things quickly dawned on me after I read Dragon Ball Minus:

1. Dragon Ball Minus wastes a quarter of it's material on pointless cameos for Raditz and Vegeta, the Galactic Patrol sending Jaco (something the Jaco The Galactic Patrolman manga already tells us) and Freeza's exposition about how he is going to kill the Saiyans just so that Super Saiyan God, a form that has nothing to do with the events of Dragon Ball Minus, could be named dropped as a way of promoting the at time recently released Battle Of Gods movie that introduced that form.

2. I've read several one shot stories that have had similar length, and even less length, in terms of pages to work with compared to Dragon Ball Minus and have still managed to produce much better storytelling and characterization.

3. Toriyama has previously produced an underwhelming backstory in the form of the Future Trunks in the manga side story Trunks The History - The Lone Warrior. And in that case, that side story had more than twice the amount of pages to work with Dragon Ball Minus.

Look... I'm not averse to change. I don't mind revising certain story threads on one simple condition: they contribute something worthwhile. Dragon Ball Minus brings nothing worthwhile to table. As a matter of fact, it takes away an aspect of Dragon Ball that was so unique to it. Dragon Ball Minus does far more harm to the original story's themes than Toriyama perhaps intended for it too.

I can honestly say with no hesitation and hyperbole that Dragon Ball Minus is the worst thing Toriyama has ever contributed to the franchise.

It's astonishing how much 16 pages of material can damage the perspective of how you can view the original story, at least within the thematic sense of Goku's character. But the saddest thing about this scenario is that this could have easily been a decent abridged version of Toei's Bardock TV special with Goku's mother sprinkled in there for good measure. Redundant that may have been in the end, but at least there would have been some kind of merit and/or value. Dragon Ball Minus has no value. It's 16 pages of glorified bullet points. There's no story, no characterization and nothing positive to take away from it. Dragon Ball Minus is a marketing tool. And even worse, it's not even a superficially entertaining marketing tool like Dragon Ball Super.

Dragon Ball Minus exists as a recton solely for the sake it. And all this coming from a person like Akira Toriyama is such a colossal fucking letdown.

-1/10

SPECIAL NOTE: Covering Minus was a last minute decision on my part. This personal assessment was originally meant to be focused on the 1990 TV special and Episode Of Bardock. But I decided to thrown in Minus because... when am I ever gonna get the chance to talk about Minus in detail again? And because of that, this little essay ended up being delayed for several days because there was a lot I needed to say after reading that and I got super busy in middle of reading and doing the write up.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:50 am, edited 24 times in total.

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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Grimlock » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:53 pm

Allow me to dissect this character. One that exists for 28 years since the debut of his TV Special back in October 17th, 1990 got me a lot to say.

Bardock has that kind of "badass" attitude that mostly fathers of protagonists have in their own way, and Bardock is no different. This alone makes the character rather interesting to me, but what is charming is not even related to the character itself, but me. I am a person whose biggest dream is to have my own family. I am too attracted by the notion of family, to play with my own kids (instead of keep playing with other people's children, do not get me wrong, I like, but eventually you start to want things of your own) and this thing I have I unconsciously "pass" onto some fictional characters. My passion and desire to have a family makes me relate to fathers (be of protagonists or not generally) easier and faster. This is why Minato Namikaze (and potentially Monkey D. Dragon) is also my favorite character, for instance.

When it comes to Bardock, I am not lying, I knew that if he would ever return, he would be portrayed differently from what we first saw in the TV Special. This is why I was not, and until this day, I am not angry nor disappointed by the "new characterization" attributed to him these days. Even when all we had was that TV Special where Bardock neglected his own son (a part that I actually never liked about him), I knew Bardock was that playboy, warlike Saiyan but that deep down he was the type to care about his family. Nowaways, he is exactly what I have always envisioned him to be.

As for his stories, it is kind of tricky for me to say something, you know. He is involved in some interesting stories, he is also involved in material with no story at all. He does that in that place, he does not that here. All these differences is kind of annoying, more consistency would be appreciated.
The TV Special is a masterpiece in itself, though it lacks the appearances of some characters (and the already mentioned part of Bardock's personality I did not like), it delivered an awesome backstory. It is tragic, it is dark, it is emotional, everything I would ask for a comical series, the drastic difference of tone and irony here is marvelous and very well done.
Episode Bardock gave me goosebumps for months, the very idea of Bardock having Super Saiyan was a dream coming true. The OVA itself is an additional story for Bardock, still cool but it lacks something, probably if it was 45-minute long too it would be a complete story, more fleshed out and such. I do not really know, I do not have a word to define it, I think it could be more.
Dragon Ball Minus is the very definition of "bad". When you search for this word in the dictionary, you will find an image "Dragon Ball Minus" in there. I don't mind his new look (only because I do not mind the armors in general), but the lack of the bandanna and the red shinguard over the boots triggers me. Also, you do not get to understand, witness and see in details anything in that horrible chapter. The only good thing out of it is Gine, but that ain't saying much because she is not even developed in the chapter. It is nice that Bardock is the one responsible for Goku being alive, it gives Bardock something useful to the whole narrative of Dragon Ball instead of having no bearing in the plot at all, which is terrible since he is the father of one of the biggest protagonists out there. However, since Dragon Ball Minus is just nothing, that act of him is kind of a "whatever" since nothing has not been built up to that moment. Everything is rushed in order to fit a mere sixteen pages. I do not really know what was going on in Akira Toriyama's mind when he decided to regurgitate such a crap chapter. Anyway, I bet you might be wondering why I did not mention Bardock's personality since I said above this "new" Bardock seen here in Dragon Ball Minus is the one I have always envisioned... The reason is simple and is just below.
I would say Dragon Ball Online is the peak of Bardock's character in general. Yes, he is alive after the events of TV Special but nothing was done poorly with the character. Even though Mira saved him, Bardock still turns against him for having used him and even tries to sacrifice himself. It is actually here that Bardock firstly displays the care attitude for his son, not only when Bardock is about to explodes he bids farewell to Goku, there was a mission which Trunks asks why Bardock is helping them, he intends to say that it is because Goku is his son but he does not complete the sentence and says something else instead. All the personality established by Toriyama is seen here, four years before the release of Dragon Ball Minus. He cares for Goku, he helps others, but he still that playboy, warlike and badass Saiyan that people love about him. If only the game was not shut down, who knows what could have happened to the character and how his growth would be, but judging how things were going, I would safely say that thing were going into the right direction with Bardock.

Bardock is an awesome character with some epic scenes and moments, I used to say to myself I wanted to be like him when I grew up. Crazy huh? xD I truly hope Dragon Ball Super: Broly does not end up trashing Bardock by removing his rebellion scene, it is too symbolic, such a strong, emotional and crutial moment for Bardock that perfectly defines him and can be a lead-up for more stuff if they decide to use him more eventually.
Lord Beerus wrote:I do have one major issue with the TV special. Bardock's battle power. I find it a very dumb that a "low class" warrior like Bardock would end up having a power level of 10,000 considering that an elite warrior like Nappa is not even half as strong as him. How can Bardock be considered a low class fighter when he's more than twice as strong as a person who's considered to be an elite Saiyan fighter?
When it comes to classes, we know that there are:

• Low-class
• Mid-class
• Elite-class

Akira Toriyama said that the only Elite-class Saiyans were King Vegeta and Vegeta; there were around ten Mid-class Saiyans and all the rest were Low-class. That said, I do not understand your issue here. Nappa was not an Elite-class ("but he says so" - yeah, but it is not like people do not brag themselves. Hell, we are talking about a warrior race, bragging is in their nature. It does not mean that just because they say they are "elite" they actually are). Nappa was a Mid-class warrior at best, probably not in the upper ranks as far as a Mid-class warrior can go.
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:40 pm

Grimlock wrote:That said, I do not understand your issue here. Nappa was not an Elite-class ("but he says so" - yeah, but it is not like people do not brag themselves. Hell, we are talking about a warrior race, bragging is in their nature. It does not mean that just because they say they are "elite" they actually are). Nappa was a Mid-class warrior at best, probably not in the upper ranks as far as a Mid-class warrior can go.
His issue is the fact Bardock is supposed to be a worthless nobody grunt, a low-level Saiyan who at best does way better than expected and helps prompt along Freeza's choice to destroy the Saiyans. This idea REALLY doesn't work when Bardock is as strong as King Vegeta, one of the strongest Saiyans then and for a good while until Vegeta, Goku,... and the rest surpass him.
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:45 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
2. Where's Raditz? You'd think in a movie about Bardock, that his own son would at least make a cameo, but that doesn't happen. Hell, he's not even mentioned by name!

...

4. I just can't get behind Nozawa voicing Bardock. I mean, yeah, he is Goku's dad and looks exactly like Goku, but I think this would have been the time were some vocal differentiation would have appreciated.
I agree with both of these. One could argue that Bardock not even acknowledging Raditz by name is in keeping with his character (I mean, he had a pretty, "Eh, whatever, I don't care"-attitude towards Goku's birth, so why would it be any different with Raditz?). At the same time, I think it would have been nice for there to have been either a brief line or a brief scene dealing with Raditz somehow.

Which brings me to your fourth point.

I think the perfect voice for Bardock would have been Shigeru Chiba, the voice of Raditz. It's not that Nozawa did a bad job--she didn't--but between Bardock's villainous personality and my longing for Raditz to be brought into the equation somehow, I think Chiba's voice would have been a better fit for a more villainous and dark character like Bardock. Being Raditz's father, it would also make total sense for him to have that voice anyway.

EDIT: Well, turns out I wasn't the only one with that idea. I don't like the "adjusted pitch" used in this video though, I think the original pitch worked just fine!

Great stuff, Lord Beerus!
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:28 pm

I wouldn't classify DB Minus as a Bardock story, but a story that happens to have Bardock in it. It's not a criticism.

As for the TV Special and Episode of Bardock, I like both for what they are. Well, the TV Special is my favourite DB animated story, so it's more than merely liking it. But I'm not one of those people that expect or demands that Toriyama sticks to it. It's his world, his story so I'm quite curious to learn more about it.

Episode of Bardock? A nice, even if inconsequential, what-if story. Well animated too. I will never understand the hate it gets, but then again, I'll never understand the amount of praise certain past and current DB works get.

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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Grimlock wrote:That said, I do not understand your issue here. Nappa was not an Elite-class ("but he says so" - yeah, but it is not like people do not brag themselves. Hell, we are talking about a warrior race, bragging is in their nature. It does not mean that just because they say they are "elite" they actually are). Nappa was a Mid-class warrior at best, probably not in the upper ranks as far as a Mid-class warrior can go.
His issue is the fact Bardock is supposed to be a worthless nobody grunt, a low-level Saiyan who at best does way better than expected and helps prompt along Freeza's choice to destroy the Saiyans. This idea REALLY doesn't work when Bardock is as strong as King Vegeta, one of the strongest Saiyans then and for a good while until Vegeta, Goku,... and the rest surpass him.
Unfortunately, the thing about Bardock having a power level of 10,000 seemed like a case of the writers having their cake and eating it too. On the one hand, they wanted Bardock to come across as a nameless nobody who Freeza couldn’t care less about, but on the other hand, they also wanted Bardock to be badass enough that he would be able to take out an entire army of Freeza’s soldiers despite being badly injured. As much as I love the Bardock special, it could’ve done without that.

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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Doctor. » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:17 pm

Grimlock wrote:He cares for Goku
But Bardock doesn't care about Goku. That's not who the character is. He deemed his son worthless because he was weak and he only cared about him eventually because he learned Goku would grow up to become strong. It's a very, very superficial connection that is only held up by Bardock's pride in his race and his hatred against Freeza; he projects himself onto Goku as the one who would avenge the Saiyans.

NO Bardock story earns or will ever earn the right to say "Bardock genuinely cares about Goku" without first putting in the effort to develop the character and show us that he came to realize that his son is completely unlike the Saiyans he knows and takes pride in, that he would be completely disgusted by his father's actions, and that although he may be strong, it is not his strength that defines him. Until a Bardock story actually goes through the trouble of developing the character in a way that is consistent with his beliefs, then it's worth jackshit.

Or you can take the reboot route and just make that your starting point. Fuck Minus.

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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:33 pm

Bardock really is an example of something you should do once then leave alone. Too bad nobody can leave anything alone, that much became clear when Watchmen vs DC became a thing.
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:39 pm

Doctor. wrote:But Bardock doesn't care about Goku. That's not who the character is. He deemed his son worthless because he was weak and he only cared about him eventually because he learned Goku would grow up to become strong. It's a very, very superficial connection that is only held up by Bardock's pride in his race and his hatred against Freeza; he projects himself onto Goku as the one who would avenge the Saiyans.

NO Bardock story earns or will ever earn the right to say "Bardock genuinely cares about Goku" without first putting in the effort to develop the character and show us that he came to realize that his son is completely unlike the Saiyans he knows and takes pride in, that he would be completely disgusted by his father's actions, and that although he may be strong, it is not his strength that defines him. Until a Bardock story actually goes through the trouble of developing the character in a way that is consistent with his beliefs, then it's worth jackshit.

Or you can take the reboot route and just make that your starting point. Fuck Minus.
If my sig space wasn't already so full, I'd have every word of this whole post added into it. Spot on.

Let's also note however that Grimlock also had said earlier:
Grimlock wrote:Bardock has that kind of "badass" attitude that mostly fathers of protagonists have in their own way, and Bardock is no different. This alone makes the character rather interesting to me, but what is charming is not even related to the character itself, but me. I am a person whose biggest dream is to have my own family. I am too attracted by the notion of family, to play with my own kids (instead of keep playing with other people's children, do not get me wrong, I like, but eventually you start to want things of your own) and this thing I have I unconsciously "pass" onto some fictional characters. My passion and desire to have a family makes me relate to fathers (be of protagonists or not generally) easier and faster. This is why Minato Namikaze (and potentially Monkey D. Dragon) is also my favorite character, for instance.

When it comes to Bardock, I am not lying, I knew that if he would ever return, he would be portrayed differently from what we first saw in the TV Special. This is why I was not, and until this day, I am not angry nor disappointed by the "new characterization" attributed to him these days. Even when all we had was that TV Special where Bardock neglected his own son (a part that I actually never liked about him), I knew Bardock was that playboy, warlike Saiyan but that deep down he was the type to care about his family. Nowaways, he is exactly what I have always envisioned him to be.
Without delving too personally into the psychology of a total stranger here, its pretty clear that there is a LOT of personal psychological projection going on here that is informing Grimlock's idea of "who Bardock is" rather than simply looking at the original story objectively as it was portrayed.

That's really what a LOT of various fan disagreements here (apart from some dub-related stuff) boil down to: fans not looking at the story that's being portrayed in front of them, but rather building up their own romanticized, heavily filtered revision of what they're seeing inside their heads, and then judging and making statements on forums like this based on THAT idealized vision in their heads rather than the actual story as presented on the page/on screen.

As it just so happens though, Minus happened to help water down the original Bardock story/character into something that fits more in line with the watered down fanfic version of the character that a certain swath of the fanbase had already long built up inside their own heads. Which is now being taken as "the new canon" going forward. Great.

And just to reiterate this once more to make it abundantly clear: my main issue with Minus HAS NEVER BEEN that it retcons over the original Bardock TV special. My main issue with Minus has ALWAYS been that its just a shitty, shallow, uncompelling story (with a shitty, shallow, uncompelling, bastardized, watered down version of Bardock at its center) in and of itself, by itself. That it wants to retcon over not just a good DB story, but one of the BEST DB stories ever done, is only added insult to injury for what's already a thoroughly lousy prequel on its own merits.

If Minus were a well done, well thought out Bardock story on its own merits that happened to be completely different from the original TV special, I would not have the slightest problem with it (nor with it being used as "canon" with future DB Super material going forward) whatsoever.
ekrolo2 wrote:Bardock really is an example of something you should do once then leave alone. Too bad nobody can leave anything alone, that much became clear when Watchmen vs DC became a thing.
Co-signing on this also. Perfectly said.

The worst thing to happen to Bardock was more Bardock material being made long after the original TV special: virtually ALL of the Bardock stories that have come after the masterfully executed original special have just been not only worthless garbage, but worthless garbage that has done actual damage to the character and devalued him massively. The original TV special will always be excellent and stand the test of time, but everything else with the character has been pure cringe and working in direct OPPOSITION of what made Bardock such a cool, fascinating, and memorable character in the first place.

Bardock as portrayed in the original TV special is fantastic, marvelously conceived/executed, and iconic. The rest of the material featuring him has been an abject dumpster fire, pandering shamelessly to the most uncritical and standards-free of fanboys who simply want more Bardock for the sake of having more Bardock, quality be damned.
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:51 pm

I don't like chosen one stories. Goku being a cast away from a barbaric race who ultimately grows into the strongest of their race is compelling. Bardock not giving a shit about his own son just adds to that. Any attempt to do the opposite just dilutes the original message. The original Bardock special is great and to the point. The only change that would be worthwhile would be to develop Bardock's crew. This newfound focus on stories and characters that were wrapped up decades ago is gilding the lily at best. The Bardock story was told well once, and I agree with everyone else saying that it should've been left alone. He's not Jor-El!
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:18 pm

ABED wrote:He's not Jor-El!
Except now he is :P

Which is one thing I'd really like to tell Toriyama, the guy who prides his portrayal on Goku having that dash of poison and how his entire origin for Goku makes him a bad copy of the quintessential superhero.
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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm

Doctor. wrote:NO Bardock story earns or will ever earn the right to say "Bardock genuinely cares about Goku" without first putting in the effort to develop the character and show us that he came to realize that his son is completely unlike the Saiyans he knows and takes pride in, that he would be completely disgusted by his father's actions, and that although he may be strong, it is not his strength that defines him. Until a Bardock story actually goes through the trouble of developing the character in a way that is consistent with his beliefs, then it's worth jackshit.
ekrolo2 wrote:Bardock really is an example of something you should do once then leave alone. Too bad nobody can leave anything alone, that much became clear when Watchmen vs DC became a thing.
Kunzait_83 wrote:The worst thing to happen to Bardock was more Bardock material being made long after the original TV special: virtually ALL of the Bardock stories that have come after the masterfully executed original special have just been not only worthless garbage, but worthless garbage that has done actual damage to the character and devalued him massively. The original TV special will always be excellent and stand the test of time, but everything else with the character has been pure cringe and working in direct OPPOSITION of what made Bardock such a cool, fascinating, and memorable character in the first place. Bardock as portrayed in the original TV special is fantastic, marvelously conceived/executed, and iconic. The rest of the material featuring him has been an abject dumpster fire, pandering shamelessly to the most uncritical and standards-free of fanboys who simply want more Bardock for the sake of having more Bardock, quality be damned.
10/10 to ALL these comments.

Bardock is a character that should have never appeared in any Dragon Ball material after his 1990 TV special, because it's very patently obvious that NOBODY has any idea what the fuck to do with him.

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Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

Post by Spider-Man » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Fuck Minus.
Might as well add Dragon Super Broly :P
    Bardock is a character that should have been used in one special and that its and not having him fighting some Frieza knockoff or transforming to SSJ just for the sake of fanservice. He worked better when he was that saiyan that nobody cared about and it make sense cause he wasn't important in Saiyan and Namek.
      As for the thread I'd rated the original TV special of Bardock a 9/10, The episode of Bardock 2/10 and Minus 3/10.
      Last edited by Spider-Man on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:09 pm

      The original TV special is great. It is a tragic story of an bag guy who is nobody who want's to survive and is trying to save his fellow race.
      9.5/10

      The episode of Bardock isn't great but it is nice fluff, especially since it's all it is is promoting Heroes. 3/10

      As everyone else has said "Fuck Minus" .5/10
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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by ShadowBardock89 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:09 pm

      I know this a minor observation, but I find it funny that the original special features Nappa and Vegeta, but Raditz is nowhere to be seen (I'll give the dub some credit by giving Bardock an off-handed remark of his son "was born a long time ago," which could be taken as a Raditz reference).
      In Minus, Vegeta and Raditz are given a panel, but Nappa is nowhere be seen.
      Where's Nappa and why can't Raditz and Nappa be seen together in a Bardock related story?

      Speaking of the big, bald Saiyan, his status as a Saiyan Elite has been stripped away through the years thanks to Toriyama.
      During the Episode of Bardock Q&A, Toriyama said the only Elite Class Saiyans were King Vegeta and his son.
      So, Nappa was a really strong mid-class warrior, then? Was his status elevated by default thanks to Vegeta?

      Also Lord Beerus, you might want to book mark this thread as Dragon Ball Super: Broly will add more to this fire (even moreso if Super's revival adapts the story into an arc).
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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:07 am

      ShadowBardock89 wrote: (even moreso if Super's revival adapts the story into an arc).
      Dragon Ball was a mistake.
      When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:44 am

      ekrolo2 wrote:
      ShadowBardock89 wrote: (even moreso if Super's revival adapts the story into an arc).
      Dragon Ball was a mistake.
      The amount of sheer garbage does outweigh the good parts by a lot now.

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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by PFM18 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:17 pm

      Doctor. wrote:
      ekrolo2 wrote:
      ShadowBardock89 wrote: (even moreso if Super's revival adapts the story into an arc).
      Dragon Ball was a mistake.
      The amount of sheer garbage does outweigh the good parts by a lot now.
      Whatever you say dude. Dragon Ball is in it's renaissance period and it is the biggest it has ever been. The last two arcs are some of the best in the franchise IMO and the DB Movie/accompanied arc are shaping up to be great themselves

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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:31 pm

      PFM18 wrote:it is the biggest it has ever been.
      We both know this is false.
      PFM18 wrote:The last two arcs are some of the best in the franchise IMO and the DB Movie/accompanied arc are shaping up to be great themselves
      Even if we take this to be true, you're still ignoring the sheer amount of garbage concentrated in Z filler, Z movies, GT, Heroes and the videogames.

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      Re: The Bardock Story Trilogy: A Personal Assessment

      Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:59 pm

      PFM18 wrote:Dragon Ball is in it's renaissance period and it is the biggest it has ever been.
      Dragon Ball's renaissance period (when it was critically and creatively firing on all cylinders) was roughly 1987 to 1991 or so: its commercial peak (when it was at its all time most popular ever) was 1991 through 1994-ish or so.

      What we're in today is Dragon Ball's rough equivalent of decades-belated TV revivals like Rosanne and such (albeit without a key member of its staff having a racist Twitter meltdown). Is it doing fantastic numbers? Of course it is. Is it out there in the public zeitgeist again? Most definitely. Is it anywhere near the creative or commercial peaks of its heyday? I would argue no way. Its got MASSIVELY more awareness in the West than it used to in its original day (thanks to the FUNimation dub and the Cartoon Network anime phenomenon it spawned), but beyond that, I wouldn't say that anything we've been seeing from it is some sort of game changing new high water mark for the series.

      From what I'm seeing in the Western fanbase, what a lot of the excitement and buzz is coming from is the sheer novelty of "Oh my god, shiny new toy!" If there's one thing that Western DB fandom was positively PRIMED for for YEARS now, its been this burning desire to be present for witnessing a present-day, modern launching of brand new Dragon Ball material.

      The reasons for why that is are very bizarre and hard to simplify in a few short words: essentially there is this utterly weird obsession in modern anime fandom (as a broader whole beyond just that of Dragon Ball) of the last decade now with keeping up on being at the forefront of the bleeding-edge pulse of what is freshly brand new and hot out of the oven in Japan right this very second. I personally think that its a combination of that along with the on some level subconscious knowledge most Western DB fandom has had for awhile now that Dragon Ball was NEVER as "new" a thing as it was hyped and presented as in America during the dub's debut on Toonami (obviously 80s and early 90s production, the ever-presence of "spoilers" online of a show that had obviously been LONG ago finished for years by that point).

      Look at phenomenon like FUNimation's Orange Brick "remastering" and the Western fandom's embracing of it (in some corners at least): there's always been this weird longing in U.S. fandom for DB to forever be frozen in time as "the new hotness of the moment". The presence of new DB material I think is scratching this LONG heavy and ever-present itch that's been burning away at the Western end of the fanbase for some time now (at least since the mid-2000s or so).

      Right now we're still in the honeymoon period of this "Dragon Ball as the shiny new toy" that U.S. fans have always wanted it to forever remain as and that Super and the revival material are finally letting them bask in: I find it VERY doubtful that very much of its material (other than a few core concepts here and there like Beerus and Zamasu perhaps) are going to stand the test of time in much the same ways as most of the original series run has.

      But that last part's obviously just a guess on my part: we'll just have to wait and see ultimately.
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      Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
      Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
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