If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:33 pm

Bullza wrote:Well not that I'm going to read through all that but Yu Yu Hakusho was a series that ran at around the same time that Dragon Ball Z began to blow up. It began as a completely different kind of series that ended up randomly changing into a story about a young guy who could fire blue energy blasts from his hands fighting against powerful enemies, demons, in a martial arts Tournament.

One of these enemies being the spiky black haired midget Hiei who became a moody ally, a clear Vegeta wannabe.

They then continued with ever increasing powerful enemies, with multiple transformations,hidden power within due to some unique ancestry and with power levels being given as high numbers.

It was always a cash in of Dragon Ball even down to them making the Yu Yu Hakusho Dark Tournament game on the PS2, many years after the series had ended to try and cash in on the success that the Dragon Ball Z Budokai games were having at the same time.
Well, perhaps you should read through all of that to freshen up your perspective on this. Dragon Ball is but another piece in a long history of fantasy kung-fu media. Blue energy blasts, monsters with transformations, tournaments and those type of things weren't invented by Dragon Ball. By the logic you're using, every piece of work within genres are ripoffs of each other.

I'm sure Dragon Ball's style influenced the direction Togashi decided to take the series in, but just comparing the shows themselves, outside of the most base, surface-level elements that you mentioned, they're not really that similar. They're different stories told in very different ways, especially once Yu Yu Hakusho gets past the spirit detective stuff and becomes a lot more psychologically-driven.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by zarmack » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:37 pm

Imagine a Dragonball/Z/GT/Super/Heroes film or saga done by Yoshiaki Kawajiri (Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, etc). It would be incredible.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Bullza » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:54 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Togashi certainly took inspiration from Toriyama and Dragon Ball, but it's not what you're trying to say it is.
Well there you go, that's what I was getting at. There's other series like Dragon Ball, Naruto or Bleach for example but Yu Yu Hakusho was at the same time.

It began as a comedy ghost story at a time when Dragon Ball Z was at its peak from all these flashy battles and transformations in the Namek saga and then suddenly Yu Yu Hakusho became a completely different series altogether.

The energy attacks, Martial Arts Tournaments, Hiei the villain turned anti-hero, the demons, transformations, the main character having hidden power due to his unknown heritage, Toguro getting stronger by using a certain percentage of his power just like Frieza, the style of fights that they had, the Earth shaking as they powered up, all the talk of power levels and being shocked over hearing them.

Yeah I sure he was inspired, probably had something to do with how many millions of copies Dragon Ball was selling.
Don't say "I'm not going to read all that" when someone responds to you with things to read that answer your question
I didn't ask one though.
jjgp1112 wrote:Well, perhaps you should read through all of that to freshen up your perspective on this. Dragon Ball is but another piece in a long history of fantasy kung-fu media. Blue energy blasts, monsters with transformations, tournaments and those type of things weren't invented by Dragon Ball. By the logic you're using, every piece of work within genres are ripoffs of each other.
I never said Dragon Ball did it first. It didn't but it was the first major manga of its kind that had that kind of style and popularity and Yu Yu Hakusho was right on its tail doing something very similar.

It's not like it just had the tournaments or just had the energy blasts, it took a lot from it.

The series is about a young fighter with a heap of hidden potential because of his unknown heritage, who learns martial arts and energy blasts while he battles against ever increasing powerful enemies, including a short spiky black haired one who eventually becomes a ally/rival, at Tournaments and other exotic locations of which involve many transformations and earth shaking battles all while being told how powerful these enemies are via a power level given on a technological device.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:00 pm

Puto wrote:Jesus Christ those designs.
I know. Castlevania Judgement was an all time rock bottom low point for that particular franchise, and Obata's horrendously hacky, Otaku-pandering, borderline Nomura-esque designs were effectively the front and center face of everything that was awful and misguided about that entire venture. Its why anytime someone brings up Obata as a potential artist to put a fresh new spin on an old property, these designs should ALWAYS be brought up immediately to remind people why that's probably a terrible, terrible idea that likely won't result in anything the least bit pretty.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Obata's Grant Danasty
And I don't know what that's supposed to be, but the face is L's.
I've always gotten more of a Rem vibe from it myself.

Image

But yeah: THAT thing is supposed to be Grant. Castlevania III Grant. Knife-happy pirate guy. This dude:

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There aren't enough faces to go with the the overwhelming amount of palms needed to do this justice.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:48 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:I'd love to see something bizarre like the guys who did Death Note working on it, just to see what odd, different, weird version they'd come up with.
Uh yeah... about that.

So awhile back (circa 2008/2009 or so) Konami decided to make a Castlevania fighting game called Castlevania Judgement. And they recruited Takeshi Obata, illustrator of Death Note, to do radically reinterpreted character redesigns of the entire cast of the long running classic video game series. Sounds perfectly fine enough on paper.

In practice however, the results ended up being... well...
So yeah. I got nothing against Death Note itself (for a 2000s Shonen Jump title, its at the very least something refreshingly different and unique from the usual grind of unbearably sappy and maudlin Dragon Ball wannabes), but after the dumpster fire that was Castlevania Judgement, I'd prefer if Obata never, ever, ever, EVER, ever try his hand at visually reinterpreting a classic property of any sort ever again.
Heh. I see. :lol:

Still, perhaps just the Death Note writer, and then an artist who won't do... That... :lol:
Maybe the artist from Fist Of The North Star?
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:50 pm

Bullza wrote: The series is about a young fighter with a heap of hidden potential because of his unknown heritage, who learns martial arts and energy blasts while he battles against ever increasing powerful enemies, including a short spiky black haired one who eventually becomes a ally/rival, at Tournaments and other exotic locations of which involve many transformations and earth shaking battles all while being told how powerful these enemies are via a power level given on a technological device.
You're cherry picking differen't elements at random. Yusuke's unkown heritage doesn't even become a plot element until twothirds of the way through the story and is even explicitly stated that improving his spirit powers was what awakened his demon ancestry, not the other way around. And I'm sorry, but drawing a parallel to scouters as evidence of copycating is just laughable considering how insignificant that entire bit was.

Again, you're listing nothing but standard elements of the fantasy martial arts aesthetic. Battling escalating opponents, earth shaking battles, tournaments...none of that shit is unique.
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Uh yeah... about that.
Lol can the dude only draw one girl face and two boy faces? This reminds me of Hikaru no Go, where when the children characters got older they morphed into Death Note


Anyway as for Dragonball having a new artist I guess i'll vote for Kisimoto too, I think he could make the fights feel the most Dragonballish.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Bullza » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:05 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:You're cherry picking differen't elements at random. Yusuke's unkown heritage doesn't even become a plot element until twothirds of the way through the story and is even explicitly stated that improving his spirit powers was what awakened his demon ancestry, not the other way around.
Cherry picking? No that's not cherry picking at all. Cherry picking would be me pointing out that Goku and Yusuke were both mentored by old people, that both series had a King Enma, that Kuwabara like Krillin originally hated Yusuke/Goku but eventually became good friends, that Kuwabara like the other humans of DBZ eventually took a backseat to the action because they did not have the same advantages as those tied to stronger forces like Demons or Saiyans.

Is it cherry picking to say that Toguro, a main villain, who gets bulkier as his strength increases, while giving a percentage of the power he's using, "kills" Yusukes best friend Kuwabara allowing Yusuke to unleash a new level of power that is then used to help him defeat Toguro...is maybe just a tad similar to the hugely iconic events that happened with Frieza, Goku and Krillin a mere two years beforehand?

Sounds pretty coincidental.

What I said wasn't cherry picking, Yusukes heritage was a big plot point that came later on as it did for Goku. The Tournament was part of the biggest saga of the series. Hiei the small pointy black haired villain turned anti hero was one of the four main characters. The fighting style aka the flashy energy beams, transformations, powering up scenes, super speed fights that create shockwaves as they leap and clash in the air was what made up the action of the series.

Those were major things that were all done in DBZ previously, not just one or two of these things but all of them.
Again, you're listing nothing but standard elements of the fantasy martial arts aesthetic. Battling escalating opponents, earth shaking battles, tournaments...none of that shit is unique.
Then name another manga that had all those things plus the other things I mentioned.

Name me another manga, that features a main protagonist with a unique heritage, who fights ever increasing powerful enemies using martial arts, super speed, super strength, energy blasts, earth shattering battles etc with a Tournament, an antagonist turned ally/rival and characters strength being defined by a number from a device.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:07 pm

Bullza wrote: Name me another manga, that features a main protagonist with a unique heritage, who fights ever increasing powerful enemies using martial arts, super speed, super strength, energy blasts, earth shattering battles etc with a Tournament, an antagonist turned ally/rival and characters strength being defined by a number from a device.
You practically just described the entire Wuxia genre, which has a laundry list of titles. Again, if you'd actually read the posts that Kunzait helpfully pointed to, we wouldn't have to keep having this discussion. I have pretty limited knowledge of 80s and 90s anime myself, but I've also listened to what other folks like Kunzait and Mike have said over the years so that I'm not presumptuous enough to think the 2 or 3 I do know are the only ones of relevance. There are other users that could elaborate on that, but rest assured that there's an entire library of movies and media that have unique protagonists who use Ki blasts, super speed, super strength, fight in tournaments, etc. And on top of that, Yu Yu Hakusho takes more of its cues from paranormal genres and old folklore.

I can't emphasize enough how much it won't kill you to read Kunzait's posts in the other thread.
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Zephyr » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:57 pm

Bullza wrote:Is it cherry picking to say that Toguro, a main villain, who gets bulkier as his strength increases, while giving a percentage of the power he's using
Kunzait has mentioned at several different points that boasting about what percent of power someone is using is yet another standard Wuxia trope, that Toriyama and Dragon Ball in no way invented.

I wouldn't call this cherry picking, just willful ignorance.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Bullza » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:39 am

I know about the genre, I know about the old Chinese movies were they fly around and fire energy blasts. Again I never said that Dragon Ball Z invented any of this stuff and that Yu Yu Hakusho stole all of its creations for itself.

I'm talking about a Japanese manga, that went on to be the biggest of them all, a huge franchise and then within a year or two we had another Weekly Shonen Jump manga that began as a gag series about spirits that just so happened to change into a series that had many similarities to Dragon Ball Z.

As I said if it was a couple of things then it would be nothing but there are a lot of key things that they share in common.

Is the spiky black haired midget who is originally an antagonist who becomes a reluctant ally and rival to the main protagonist who is capable of transforming into more powerful forms also a standard Wuxia trope?

If it such a common thing then again, name some other popular Japanese manga that do this as well.
I wouldn't call this cherry picking, just willful ignorance.
Funny how you cut my comment short. Almost like you wanted to point out one specific thing rather than the entire similar comparison.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:57 am

Dragon Ball lost its status as best selling manga to One Piece years ago.

I'd agree that Togashi was influenced by Dragon Ball's popularity while writing Yu Yu Hakusho. Though I don't think I'd go as far to call it a "rip off," seeing as Togashi inserted enough unique traits to give the series its own identity.
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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:44 am

This is a weird pick, and his style doesn't fit DB at all, but I'd like to see Hideo Kojima take a shot at a DB story. Though I think the MG Rising team is likely to capture the DB essence better while keeping the over-the-top, self-aware nature of Metal Gear.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:21 am

Bullza wrote:I know about the genre, I know about the old Chinese movies were they fly around and fire energy blasts. Again I never said that Dragon Ball Z invented any of this stuff and that Yu Yu Hakusho stole all of its creations for itself.
You actually DID say all that.
Bullza wrote:Well there you go, that's what I was getting at. There's other series like Dragon Ball, Naruto or Bleach for example but Yu Yu Hakusho was at the same time.

It began as a comedy ghost story at a time when Dragon Ball Z was at its peak from all these flashy battles and transformations in the Namek saga and then suddenly Yu Yu Hakusho became a completely different series altogether.

The energy attacks, Martial Arts Tournaments, Hiei the villain turned anti-hero, the demons, transformations, the main character having hidden power due to his unknown heritage, Toguro getting stronger by using a certain percentage of his power just like Frieza, the style of fights that they had, the Earth shaking as they powered up, all the talk of power levels and being shocked over hearing them.

Yeah I sure he was inspired, probably had something to do with how many millions of copies Dragon Ball was selling.
As part of your spiel on how YYH was completely copying DB/Z, you clearly listed:

- Energy attacks
- Martial arts tournaments
- Villains turned anti-hero
- Demons
- Transformations
- Main character having a hidden power and unknown heritage
- Getting stronger by using a certain percentage of power
- The style of fights
- The Earth shaking as characters power up
- And "all the talk of power levels and being shocked over hearing them".

EVERY. SINGLE. LAST. ONE. Of these things you listed (except for the very last) as being proof that "YYH ripped off DB/Z" are in fact super common and ubiquitous Wuxia tropes, many of which are THOUSANDS of years old and date back to very ancient myths and legends, and many of the others dating back to genuine culturally significant literary classics, and ALL of which have in the years since been used ad nauseam across COUNTLESS modern TV, film, and comic book media: many predating Dragon Ball by DECADES, and many of them either just as or vastly more popular and culturally iconic than DB. The Legend of Madame White Snake, Journey to the West, The Water Margin, The Slave of Kunlun, Laughing in the Wind, Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils, Legend of the Condor Heroes, Buddha's Palm, The Magic Blade, and on and on and on and on down an almost bottomless list.

If you knew otherwise the whole time, you wouldn't have gone down that whole very specific list just now. You cannot just say all that in the context of a discussion about YYH supposedly ripping off everything it does from DB/Z and then backpedal out of it now when you're busted and called out on it and say "Yeah yeah, I knew about all that Chinese Wuxia stuff already" after a rant like that.

I'm sorry, but based on everything you've said (both here and in other threads) you clearly haven't read hardly a single word that either myself or anyone else on this forum has said (at great length and detail; right down to the "characters gauging their Ki power in percentages" cliche) about this topic, and are basically just speaking blindly off of popular (and incorrect) fandom stereotypes about these series; incorrect stereotypes that were also largely the product of mass fandom-wide ignorance about these (VERY massive and globally popular) genres of martial arts fantasy media that extend well outside the boundaries of Japanese Shonen manga/anime.

The one exception among those items you listed is the Power Levels thing. But that's totally irrelevant anyways, because I'm assuming you're talking about the "Class" ranking system in YYH: that was a plot point that is of INCREDIBLY little significance to YYH, and isn't introduced into the series until roughly near the very last story arc. Its of greatly less significance to YYH than Battle Powers/Power Levels were to DB/Z: and DB/Z's Power Levels THEMSELVES are also an INCREDIBLY minor, small detail in DB that is of MUCH less significance to the series than most (largely Western) fans have built them up in their heads to be over the years.

Certainly back during Dragon Ball's original Japanese run, Power Levels were almost NEVER discussed or focused on by most of fandom. Almost no one back then had paid much mind to them, as they're a ridiculously tiny story detail that crops up for only two story arcs (Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs), serve a specific purpose (to be unreliable and give the heroes a slight edge on the villains who otherwise greatly outmatch them), and then are promptly dropped and forgotten about from then on going forward. Hell, they weren't even drudged back up (to any significant degree at least) for the Resurrection F movie/arc of Super, to show how little fucks both Toriyama and the Japanese fanbase at large apparently gives about the concept.

The FUNimation dub is in fact a LOT of the reason for why Power Levels became such a huge talking point within fandom in the first place: due to the dub both starting at the Saiya-jin arc, as well as spending its first bunch of years on air endlessly cycling through the only two arcs (Saiya-jin and Freeza) that Power Levels ever appear and are relevant in. This unnaturally built up the concept in the heads of Western/English speaking fans, and it grew to metastasize into the inseparable meme that it now is today. FUNimation further didn't help matters by latching onto this themselves, and continuing to add in references to Power Levels in later DBZ arcs (and even in DB Super years later!) that were of course never there in the original scripts (because why the hell would they be?).

Power Levels were NEVER an "iconic" or "notable" part of the series during its original Japanese run: outside of the two arcs of the series they appeared in (and their related movies), they'd get referenced in a few video games and guidebooks, and that was basically the extent of it. Almost no one actually following the series in its original run gave the slightest two shits about them: not until the dub first started and went on to repeat the first two Z arcs endlessly for several years before moving on.

Thus, YYH had effectively ZERO reason to copy or rip off that particular detail from DB/Z: as I said, the appearance of the Class ranking system for Demons in YYH is an even SMALLER and LESS SIGNIFICANT detail in that series than Power Levels (which were pretty insignificant themselves) were in DB/Z, and any similarities the two might share (and they REALLY don't share any at all really when you get right down to it) is of course almost undoubtedly 100% coincidental.

Apart from that: everything, literally E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G else that you've been going on about in this thread (Ki attacks, flying, superhuman speed and strength, measuring one's Ki in percentages, fighting with demons, martial arts tournament storylines, literal Earth shaking Ki aura powerups, etc.) are ALL absolutely cliched and ubiquitously common stereotypes that help define a whole entire genre that LONG predates Dragon Ball: a genre that was a culturally iconic cliche of itself long, loooooong before DB ever came along... by COUNTLESS decades just within modern day film/television/comic book media, nevermind in the literally MILLENNIA old ancient writings and folkloric myths that originally coined them first.

YYH would undoubtedly still exist almost exactly the way it did (like SO very many countless other Wuxia stories and franchises would've) in a world where Dragon Ball was never created. The main thing that would likely be different without DB's influence would be its depiction of the Buddhist afterlife, since as I said, the "Buddhist afterlife as a modern Japanese office" gimmick is the main, primary thing that YYH had clearly copied straight from Dragon Ball that was legitimately unique to it. Most everything else... not so much at all.
Bullza wrote:If it such a common thing then again, name some other popular Japanese manga that do this as well.
This one for starters:

Image

Pre-dates Dragon Ball by almost a year, and was already an instantly iconic and popular phenomenon throughout Japan well long before Dragon Ball first caught on. Indeed while DB took some time at first to find its footing and its popularity, Fist of the North Star came out the gate swinging as an instant hit, and one that still has a big name legacy in manga and anime that lingers on to this very day, standing shoulder to shoulder in Shonen Jump notoriety and iconography alongside Dragon Ball, Saint Seiya, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and even the "Big Three" of Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece.

Among other things, it contains:

- An entire fantasy world of superhumanly strong martial artists (displaced within a Mad Max-like post-nuclear war setting, which is Fist of the North Star's main unique and distinctive gimmick) aligned with a wide variety of martial arts schools, clans, and factions, all engaged in complex and bitter rivalries and feuds with one another

- A seemingly unbeatable main character (who comes from a special bloodline/lineage) whose entire life is singularly dedicated to wandering the globe and constantly training to perfect his martial arts skills and seeking out more challenging, stronger opponents to pit himself against and push past his own limits

- Taoist martial arts displays of superhuman strength, speed, stamina, and endurance, as well as explosive Ki blasts, Ki auras that shake the heavens and ravage entire cities and countrysides just by characters flaring them and powering up, etc.

- An ever escalating series of increasingly powerful and seemingly invincible opponents for the main character to climb up like a ladder as he continues to train and improve his power and abilities as the series progresses; some of which that are clearly something not-quite-human

- A gigantic repertoire of unique signature superpowered martial arts techniques that all of the characters demonstrate (complete with shouted attack names) including many that various characters must learn and master for themselves as the story progresses; one of which is even a technique called Muso Tensei, where the user achieves a perfect state of empty-minded calmness or "nothingness", allowing them to instantly anticipate, react to, and counter virtually any movement their opponent makes, no matter how quick or subtle (hmmmmm...)

- Villains who eventually become allies to the hero, and vice versa (allies of the hero who betray him and turn villainous)

- And yes, even some characters shouting off the level of their Ki strength via percentages (complete with "powering up" via massive Ki auras and the landscape turning

There's also this:

Image

Kujaku Ou aka The Peacock King. A Japanese martial arts fantasy/Wuxia manga (albeit Seinen rather than Shonen) that began only a year after Dragon Ball did (when it was still in the Pilaf arc). Kujaku Ou isn't just a Wuxia/martial arts fantasy manga, its also one that's within the very same paranormal/horror subgenre of Wuxia than YYH also occupies, at it centers around a Buddhist warrior monk who uses his Ki-powered supernatural martial arts skills to work as a ghost hunter/demonic exorcist for hire (working on behalf of a mysterious religious organization). A Ki blast wielding superhuman martial artist who trains himself to hunt Eastern demons and spirits in martial arts/paranormal horror stories? Where have we come across THAT concept before?

Kujaku Ou not only includes Ki blasts, powerful auras, flying around at super speed, training to grow stronger, and all that jazz, you also have demons, monsters, traveling between the living world and the spirit/demon world, etc. Thus it not only began barely a blip after DB started, it also WELL long predates YYH by a good several years.

Oh, and get this: Kujaku Ou started out as a fairly episodic "monster/case of the week" format, before it eventually grew into a more epic, serialized saga with overarching story arcs (or rather "Sagas" maybe...?) and big villains. Wait, so its a supernatural/paranormal/demonic-themed martial arts fighting series with Ki attacks and flying around and demon hunting that started out as something different before it got more popular and gradually evolved into something else? And during a time where Yu Yu Hakusho was YEARS away, and Dragon Ball still had Goku and Bulma running around chasing Pilaf? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

And yes, while Kujaku Ou is indeed an obscurity to Western fans today, it was certainly VERY popular and successful back during its day: it having lasted 17 volumes for its main series, then spawning an additional 11 volumes for its sequel series that followed immediately afterwards, an OVA series (directed by none other than the legendary Rintaro, of Galaxy Express fame, and which got a U.S. release), a bunch of video games (several of which also got a U.S. release), and two live action movies of substantially bigger budget and star-powered notoriety (in Hong Kong terms anyway) than the low-grade, basement-quality cheapies that Dragon Ball had originally gotten back in the day.

Oh and then there's ALSO....

Image

Osu!! Karate Bu. Another epic long Seinen fighting manga: this time one that started out as a lighthearted comedic spoof of Delinquent/Bosozoku/Japanese Street Gang manga, before it eventually, gradually gave way into becoming focused around the main character's increasingly supernaturally Ki-powered martial arts training and gigantic, epic, city-devastating feuds and rivalries with increasingly stronger and more powerful arc villains, and all sorts of other storylines and concepts culled directly from ancient Chinese legend more so than Japanese punks and street gangs.

And indeed, the story and characters get EXTREMELY over the top godlike powerful in their Ki cultivating/manipulation and martial arts strength:
And it started in... also 1985. Again, when the DB manga was still in its Pilaf arc. And OKB first began its turn into serious/fantasy-fueled martial arts and arc-based fighting around its "Three Pillars of Kobe" arc circa Volume 7 or so... which was in 1987. YEARS before either Raditz OR Piccolo ever came a knocking over on Toriyama's end. Hell, DB was just about wrapping up the Baba storyline and just barely starting into the 22nd Budokai.

So not only do we have another example of a long-running martial arts fantasy-themed manga series that started out as something lighter, episodic, and comedic before it gradually evolved and changed into a serious, hyper-violent, Wuxia/Ki-fueled martial arts epic with arc-based villains and rivalries and fantasy martial arts fights using Taoist Ki attacks that leave mass destruction in their wake... we also have one - again that predates Yu Yu Hakusho by YEARS - that started out focused primarily on Japanese delinquents and street toughs in its earlier volumes before more and more increasingly Chinese martial arts fantasy elements began to creep in.

Osu!! Karate Bu was also a very popular, long running manga series in its day that lasted a whopping 43 volumes (one year and one volume longer than DB did), despite being a barely heard of obscurity today.

I mean its almost like ALL of this stuff already had a popular precedence and context that ISN'T really dependent on Dragon Ball AT ALL or something crazy like that. :idea: :idea:
Bullza wrote:I never said Dragon Ball did it first. It didn't but it was the first major manga of its kind that had that kind of style and popularity
Not only is Dragon Ball not the first martial arts fantasy/Wuxia fighting series in Japanese manga in general, not only is it not the first successful and popular/iconic Wuxia fighting series in Japanese manga, not only is it not the first Wuxia Shonen (popular or otherwise) manga, its not even the first Wuxia manga to grace (and become mega-popular within) Weekly Shonen Jump specifically.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:13 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:53 am

Bullza wrote:
I wouldn't call this cherry picking, just willful ignorance.
Funny how you cut my comment short. Almost like you wanted to point out one specific thing rather than the entire similar comparison.
Yes, I indeed wanted to point out the one specific thing. That's why I quoted that specific thing: the part I found to entail willful ignorance.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:22 am

Robo4900 wrote:Heh. I see. :lol:

Still, perhaps just the Death Note writer, and then an artist who won't do... That... :lol:
Maybe the artist from Fist Of The North Star?
That'd be Tetsuo Hara (Fist of the North Star artist), whom both Shiro97 and myself have already mentioned earlier in this thread.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:02 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
I'm curious, though Kunzait, what influences has Dragon Ball had on media that followed it? You've been more than clear in your opinion that modern Shounen is nothing but garbage, and that they missed the point in everything they borrow from DB, so what do you think made Dragon Ball stand out amongst the other works of the time period following the same cultural tradition and what kind of positive impact did it have on media that succeeded it?

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:24 am

While I would love to see other authors do something like a DB one-shot in their own style- something like an official fan-comic- I can't imaging DB without Toriyama's sense of style and aesthetic, not to mention paneling and visual storytelling. There is more to a being a comic artists than just drawing style and story ideas, it's also how you present it on paper. Here is where I believe Toriyama truly stood out and the reason DB became so widely loved and appreciated. There is also a simplicity to his designs and page layout that makes it pleasing to the eye and easy to read. In fact, I think Torishima even mentioned this as one of the main reasons why he was drawn to Toriyama's work at first.

Now, having said that, I'd love for Yusuke Murata (OPM) to give it a go. We already got a taste of what it would look like with those fantastic fan art sketches.
Last edited by Michsi on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:06 am

Is it acceptable to mention Watsuki? Or is he pretty much blacklisted in fandom now due to the incident?

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Re: If Dragonball was written/directed by another big named anime creator/mangaka, who would you want it to be?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:20 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Heh. I see. :lol:

Still, perhaps just the Death Note writer, and then an artist who won't do... That... :lol:
Maybe the artist from Fist Of The North Star?
That'd be Tetsuo Hara (Fist of the North Star artist), whom both Shiro97 and myself have already mentioned earlier in this thread.
Right. Yeah, thought that might be one others would have suggested. :)
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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