Who are the best written couple in DB?

[Doctor.]

Kale and Caulifla. No contest here. I mean, the bar's pretty low as it is. The het couples range from godawful to whatever. Kale/Caulifla has bit of chemistry going and their interactions have all been pleasant. I hope they actually go forward with it in future stories and not back out like cowards.

They're clearly just friends.

[Kinokima]

I mean Vegeta doesn’t ever hurt Bulma and also he lives at CC without harming her or anyone for 3 years. So I think whatever fear she may initially had of him went away by the time they made love.

I disagree with you that Vegeta’s Pride was never a positive. Pride can be both a positive and negative thing. And I think in Vegeta’s case it has been both.

But Future Bulma also says Vegeta does have a heart in there. Granted even she is shocked when Trunks tells her Vegeta freaked out over his death (making me believe she gave Trunks false hope that ended up ironically coming true). But yes I do think Bulma who lived with Vegeta saw more to him. And there was more to him because he did ultimately change.

I was referring to when he first arrives on Earth. He is there to kill everyone and almost does several times. He never bats an eye. Even if we consider the three year time gap when he doesn't hurt anyone, he just came back from Namek where he killed children like they were ants. Bulma knows all that. Not exactly a stretch to think he would kill her. She takes a HUGE gamble.

Well I always thought Vegeta killing the Namek kids was bad writing on Toriyama’s part if he knew he was going to redeem Vegeta at that point (he can be forgiven for early Vegeta’s evil ways because it wasn’t planned to change Vegeta then). But honestly I don’t know exactly when Toriyama decided to make Vegeta/Bulma a thing. And I think once he did he put Vegeta on the path of turning good.


As for Bulma taking a risk. Yeah I guess. I would say she took a bigger risk trusting him to live with her right after Namek. But after 3 years living with him and interacting with him I guess she did trust him enough to sleep with him.

Look there are a lot of blanks with Vegeta & Bulma that we have to unfortunately fill in ourselves. And if I had my way I’d drill Toriyama about all the details in his head (he claims it’s all there).

And I've said many times you have to be capable of suspending your disbelief that someone like Vegeta could turn good in the first place (much less that Bulma could fall in love with him or the Z-Fighters can accept him and ignore his past) but I do because I see Vegeta as an ALIEN who had to learn how to be good and did from being affected by his time on Earth. In that sense I could say Bulma could have seen more in him and fell in love with him. Was it a risk. Yes! But there is often risk in love.

And yes I know most people don’t fall in love with former murdering aliens who killed their friends who were brought back to life. But I would say most things that happen in Dragon Ball also don’t happen in real life.

[ABED]

I mean Vegeta doesn’t ever hurt Bulma and also he lives at CC without harming her or anyone for 3 years. So I think whatever fear she may initially had of him went away by the time they made love.

I disagree with you that Vegeta’s Pride was never a positive. Pride can be both a positive and negative thing. And I think in Vegeta’s case it has been both.

But Future Bulma also says Vegeta does have a heart in there. Granted even she is shocked when Trunks tells her Vegeta freaked out over his death (making me believe she gave Trunks false hope that ended up ironically coming true). But yes I do think Bulma who lived with Vegeta saw more to him. And there was more to him because he did ultimately change.

I was referring to when he first arrives on Earth. He is there to kill everyone and almost does several times. He never bats an eye. Even if we consider the three year time gap when he doesn't hurt anyone, he just came back from Namek where he killed children like they were ants. Bulma knows all that. Not exactly a stretch to think he would kill her. She takes a HUGE gamble.

Well I always thought Vegeta killing the Namek kids was bad writing on Toriyama’s part if he knew he was going to redeem Vegeta at that point (he can be forgiven for early Vegeta’s evil ways because it wasn’t planned to change Vegeta then). But honestly I don’t know exactly when Toriyama decided to make Vegeta/Bulma a thing. And I think once he did he put Vegeta on the path of turning good.


As for Bulma taking a risk. Yeah I guess. I would say she took a bigger risk trusting him to live with her right after Namek. But after 3 years living with him and interacting with him I guess she did trust him enough to sleep with him.

Look there are a lot of blanks with Vegeta & Bulma that we have to unfortunately fill in ourselves. And if I had my way I’d drill Toriyama about all the details in his head (he claims it’s all there).

And I've said many times you have to be capable of suspending your disbelief that someone like Vegeta could turn good in the first place (much less that Bulma could fall in love with him or the Z-Fighters can accept him and ignore his past) but I do because I see Vegeta as an ALIEN who had to learn how to be good and did from being affected by his time on Earth. In that sense I could say Bulma could have seen more in him and fell in love with him. Was it a risk. Yes! But there is often risk in love.

And yes I know most people don’t fall in love with former murdering aliens who killed their friends who were brought back to life. But I would say most things that happen in Dragon Ball also don’t happen in real life.

Even prior to killing the Namekian children, we know Vegeta's killed children before. Perhaps it's not as in your face, but it's not subtle either way. He's destroyed planets for years. Even if she lived with him for 20 years, he's still murdered more people than every dictator on Earth combined, and is still dangerous. After 7 years, he lets Babidi turn him into a Majin all to settle a pissing contest.

I can suspend my disbelief as well, but it's a hard pill to swallow that Bulma would see past this and end up with a relationship with the guy. At most, I could see a drunken one night stand. We don't see much of a relationship in the series. It's mostly off screen. They don't interact except for a handful of moments and that alone would keep it from being a well written couple.

[zarmack]

Kale and Caulifla. No contest here. I mean, the bar's pretty low as it is. The het couples range from godawful to whatever. Kale/Caulifla has bit of chemistry going and their interactions have all been pleasant. I hope they actually go forward with it in future stories and not back out like cowards.

They're clearly just friends.

Also, considering the fact that Kale was worried and became jealous that Caulifla might fall for Cabba and later Goku, this would imply that Caulifla is at most bisexual, if not straight.

[Kinokima]

I can suspend my disbelief as well, but it's a hard pill to swallow that Bulma would see past this and end up with a relationship with the guy. At most, I could see a drunken one night stand. We don't see much of a relationship in the series. It's mostly off screen. They don't interact except for a handful of moments and that alone would keep it from being a well written couple.

I mean if you mean in the sense that he was a space pirate that committed planetary genocide than yes. But my point is if Toriyama meant to redeem Vegeta at this point in the story then why add this random scene of him killing the Namekian children? It is really not necessary from a writing stand point. We already know Vegeta is a villain who did horrible things. And again my point was when Toriyama initially created Vegeta he didn't envision him as a redeemed character. In fact Goku was originally supposed to kill Vegeta. But in response to Vegeta's popularity he created Freeza who became the big bad and was killed instead. But once Toriyama decided to redeem Vegeta I think he should have toned down the "evil deeds". Even without killing Namekian children, Vegeta was still evil. So really that scene was unnecessary and further complicated things.

However I would argue if we want to bring in a real life equivalent to Vegeta. I see the Saiyans something akin to the Vikings who also did horrible things, plundered worlds and killed women and children. But we are still fascinated by the Vikings and their culture today. If you look at what Vegeta did as a cultural thing because he was an alien and didn't know anything else until he came to Earth then I can see why Bulma may have seen he was capable of being something more once she got to know him and why she ultimately fell in love with him.

And also Vegeta and Bulma DO interact quite a bit in Super, which from your posts I gather you do not watch (please correct me if I am wrong). And in fact I completely disagree with the post that Vegeta and Bulma don't have chemistry. In fact I would argue now that we see their interaction they have tons. They both have fiery personalities and do argue (although Vegeta usually gives in and does exactly what Bulma tells him). Vegeta also is now a typical Tsundere who tries to hide his emotions but in the end it is very clear he loves his family & Bulma.


And note I actually enjoy all the canon couples. If there was more romantic moments between all of them Id be thrilled. I actually enjoy family interaction way more than fights. And in fact while I think a lot of shounen series have better fights. The fact that the characters are adults, are married and have kids is what I find the most unique about Dragon Ball. But I know I am not the typical Dragon Ball fan.

[ABED]

I can suspend my disbelief as well, but it's a hard pill to swallow that Bulma would see past this and end up with a relationship with the guy. At most, I could see a drunken one night stand. We don't see much of a relationship in the series. It's mostly off screen. They don't interact except for a handful of moments and that alone would keep it from being a well written couple.

I mean if you mean in the sense that he was a space pirate that committed planetary genocide than yes. But my point is if Toriyama meant to redeem Vegeta at this point in the story then why add this random scene of him killing the Namekian children? It is really not necessary from a writing stand point. We already know Vegeta is a villain who did horrible things. And again my point was when Toriyama initially created Vegeta he didn't envision him as a redeemed character. In fact Goku was originally supposed to kill Vegeta. But in response to Vegeta's popularity he created Freeza who became the big bad and was killed instead. But once Toriyama decided to redeem Vegeta I think he should have toned down the "evil deeds". Even without killing Namekian children, Vegeta was still evil. So really that scene was unnecessary and further complicated things.

However I would argue if we want to bring in a real life equivalent to Vegeta. I see the Saiyans something akin to the Vikings who also did horrible things, plundered worlds and killed women and children. But we are still fascinated by the Vikings and their culture today. If you look at what Vegeta did as a cultural thing because he was an alien and didn't know anything else until he came to Earth then I can see why Bulma may have seen he was capable of being something more once she got to know him and why she ultimately fell in love with him.

And also Vegeta and Bulma DO interact quite a bit in Super, which from your posts I gather you do not watch (please correct me if I am wrong). And in fact I completely disagree with the post that Vegeta and Bulma don't have chemistry. In fact I would argue now that we see their interaction they have tons. They both have fiery personalities and do argue (although Vegeta usually gives in and does exactly what Bulma tells him). Vegeta also is now a typical Tsundere who tries to hide his emotions but in the end it is very clear he loves his family & Bulma.


And note I actually enjoy all the canon couples. If there was more romantic moments between all of them Id be thrilled. I actually enjoy family interaction way more than fights. And in fact while I think a lot of shounen series have better fights. The fact that the characters are adults, are married and have kids is what I find the most unique about Dragon Ball. But I know I am not the typical Dragon Ball fan.

It's not a random scene when he butchers those kids and even if he always intended to redeem Vegeta, we already know Vegeta is a monster. That scene in question doesn't make it any worse, perhaps just more concrete for the audience. I don't know what constitutes neccessary, but it is a good scene that really SHOWS how evil he is. The scene is very effective in making the audience feel how monsterous this guy truly is. It's a testament to Toriyama's writing that we buy Vegeta growing a conscience.

No, I haven't seen Super. Maybe it's better now, but up until the end of Z, they rarely interact, and when they do, it's never romantic. I never said they don't have chemistry, just that there's nothing that lends itself to them being a well written romantic couple. We're never shown those moments, but at least it's better than Goku and Chichi.

[Kinokima]

It's not a random scene when he butchers those kids and even if he always intended to redeem Vegeta, we already know Vegeta is a monster. That scene in question doesn't make it any worse, perhaps just more concrete for the audience. I don't know what constitutes neccessary, but it is a good scene that really SHOWS how evil he is. The scene is very effective in making the audience feel how monsterous this guy truly is. It's a testament to Toriyama's writing that we buy Vegeta growing a conscience.

But why do you need to show how monstrous Vegeta is in this scene when it is already very well established from the Saiyan saga? It's like I plan to redeem Vegeta but let me remind you one more time how monstrous he is. It adds nothing new to the story or his character. I mean maybe at this point Toriyama still had not planned to redeem Vegeta. It seems unlikely with how soon after this Vegeta joined the Z-warriors but well it is possible that Toriyama hadn't decided what he would ultimately do with Vegeta at this point.

No, I haven't seen Super. Maybe it's better now, but up until the end of Z, they rarely interact, and when they do, it's never romantic. I never said they don't have chemistry, just that there's nothing that lends itself to them being a well written romantic couple. We're never shown those moments, but at least it's better than Goku and Chichi.

I mean this is pretty much true for all couples. Kuririn falls madly in love with 18 after she kisses him once. I don't think writing romance is Toriyama's strong point (although he claims all the details are all in his head so he at least knows how everyone got together lol) If you want to say what is the best couple in terms of establishment than only Gohan/Videl I think had realistic set up and development.

But when I am looking at Vegeta and Bulma then I do judge what they are now in Super. Of course enjoying Vegeta and Bulma I think means you have to enjoy a Tsundere based romance (which a lot of people don't or don't understand). Vegeta and Bulma aren't a openly affectionate couple but they definitely do love each other and I think Super has established that well (both with big and little moments that people may not pick up on). And I know people will point out Super's flaws but the development of Vegeta and Bulma's relationship is I think one strength of the series.

[Zephyr]

Gohan/Videl, and Caulifla/Kale are probably my favorite couples. You really see the former grow, each step of the way. The latter is hilariously integrated into a tournament that inadvertently helps foreshadow how dangerous Broly is going to be.

Really, though, every couple seems to serve some narrative function, and I dig that. Goku/Chichi is a terrific punchline to a setup from the first arc, which perfectly encapsulates Goku's naivete and commitment to his word; this leads to Gohan's birth, which causes some of the initial drama of the Saiyan arc, Piccolo's growth, and enables some interesting protagonist double-role-reversal bait and switching in the Cell and Buu arcs.

Bulma/Vegeta is an effective "wtf!?", that I can buy as a one-night-stand that blossomed into something more during the seven year gap; it also helps facilitate the drama of the Buu arc, and Vegeta's subsequent growth.

Krillin/#18 helps give the former a round arc; the man became a martial artist to impress girls, but he finds the one girl who renders his martial arts skills moot in the courtship department, because she's even stronger.

It's not a random scene when he butchers those kids and even if he always intended to redeem Vegeta, we already know Vegeta is a monster. That scene in question doesn't make it any worse, perhaps just more concrete for the audience. I don't know what constitutes neccessary, but it is a good scene that really SHOWS how evil he is. The scene is very effective in making the audience feel how monsterous this guy truly is. It's a testament to Toriyama's writing that we buy Vegeta growing a conscience.

Yeah, to call this Bad Writing™ is to miss the point entirely. Firstly, it's showing Vegeta's cruelty, rather than simply telling us about it. Secondly, it makes the direness of the situation where Gohan and Krillin are forced to team up with him that much more poignant.

[Kinokima]

Yeah, to call this Bad Writing™ is to miss the point entirely. Firstly, it's showing Vegeta's cruelty, rather than simply telling us about it. Secondly, it makes the direness of the situation where Gohan and Krillin are forced to team up with him that much more poignant.

Yes it is bad writing if the plan was to redeem Vegeta. When you are going to redeem a character you show there is more to their character not establish just how much of a monster they are for anyone who didn't get it before (it is obvious Vegeta is evil at this point whether he killed the Namekian children or not lol).


And to say it was to show how dire Gohan and Kuririn's situation is then I think having him threaten to kill them multiple times before they teamed up should have been just as effective. And really did anyone at this point in the series go hmm I don't think Vegeta is evil enough until he killed those Namekian children. And really no one even seems to care that Vegeta killed those children (except Dende who doesn't want to heal him) . I mean its not like Gohan and Kuririn really wrestle with the morality of teaming up with Vegeta who just killed a bunch of children.

Like I said it can be excused if Toriyama wasn't planning on redeeming Vegeta or hooking him up with Bulma. Maybe he even planned to keep Vegeta dead at this point. I really don't know. I just find it strange if your ultimate goal is to redeem a villain and have them get with who one of your main female characters to have them shown to kill a bunch of children right beforehand just to show everyone how evil & dangerous Vegeta is. Because we didn't already know that.

[Zephyr]

Yes it is bad writing if the plan was to redeem Vegeta. When you are going to redeem a character you show there is more to their character not establish just how much of a monster they are for anyone who didn't get it before (it is obvious Vegeta is evil at this point whether he killed the Namekian children or not lol).

For starters: why is that bad writing? I don't see why there should be a storytelling restriction on how bad a character is allowed to be before starting down a better path.

Secondly: Toriyama is notorious for planning very little. That's, like, one of his most distinctive traits as a creator. Dragon Ball's storytelling, from beginning to end, was always heavily improvized.

Thirdly: Vegeta is shown to have more to him than "I'm evil" before starting down a better path. He is furious that Cell killed Trunks; he apologizes to Gohan for making things worse in his grief; he and Trunks exchange a friendly gesture as the latter leaves to his time.

Fourth: Vegeta giving a threat in a speech bubble and actually carrying such a threat out are two different things. One is clearly more emotionally repugnant than the other. Seeing violence is more emotionally stimulating than hearing about it. At no point did I say it was necessary to show him being an evil fuck, but doing so made the team up and redemption more effective than it otherwise would have been. You're thinking about this in absolutes rather than degrees. It's not about whether or not we're sold on Vegeta being evil (we obviously were an entire arc ago), its about how sold we are. Showing the brutality sells the evilness that much more, which makes the team up and redemption more impactful, effective, and poignant.

Which brings me back to the first point: why is there a line drawn for how sold on an idea we're allowed to be? If you're committed to there being a line, how do you determine the best place to draw it? Why does Vegeta killing children cross it? I'd say that the more sold we are that he's a vicious monster, the more impactful it is to see him become a better person.

It can't be a case of "well if he's that evil, then my suspension of disbelief is shattered when he does redeem himself", because we know he's already killed children. The only difference is feeling how evil he is, rather than being told. That component, the art eliciting an emotional reaction in the reader, is a good thing. If you got a sick feeling in your stomach watching Vegeta slaughter children that you otherwise wouldn't have, then I'd say that's good writing, because the author was able to elicit an emotional reaction from you.

[Kinokima]

Thirdly: Vegeta is shown to have more to him than "I'm evil" before starting down a better path. He is furious that Cell killed Trunks; he apologizes to Gohan for making things worse in his grief; he and Trunks exchange a friendly gesture as the latter leaves to his time.

Yeah no these are ALL things that happened After he joined the Z-warriors and had a child with Bulma. He may not be one of the good guys at this point but he is also hardly a villain. He is more on the gray side so these are not good examples to what I mean.

I meant if the point was to have Vegeta and Bulma get together directly after Namek and have Vegeta join the Z-fighters then it doesn't make sense to establish what a monster he is one more time because really it doesn't add anything to the story or what it adds is a short term gain of making things more dire for Kuririn and Gohan in working with Vegeta (although it really doesn't seem to bother them all that much). Like the point is Bulma asks Vegeta to live with her right after he says ha ha you can't wish back that one Namekian village because I was the one to kill them. Instead shouldn't something be established of why Vegeta may not be quite as bad as he seemed in the Saiyan saga and that is why Bulma asks him to live with her. Instead it really has the opposite effect.

Fourth: Vegeta giving a threat in a speech bubble and actually carrying such a threat out are two different things. One is clearly more emotionally repugnant than the other. Seeing violence is more emotionally stimulating than hearing about it. At no point did I say it was necessary to show him being an evil fuck, but doing so made the team up and redemption more effective than it otherwise would have been. You're thinking about this in absolutes rather than degrees. It's not about whether or not we're sold on Vegeta being evil (we obviously were an entire arc ago), its about how sold we are. Showing the brutality sells the evilness that much more, which makes the team up and redemption more impactful, effective, and poignant.

Right why do you need to make the character you plan to redeem more emotionally repugnant? See again I can suspend my disbelief because Vegeta is an alien with a different belief system than the Earthlings that is how I reconcile someone as evil as Vegeta can be redeemed because he had to learn another way. I can believe in it (yes even after he kills alien children).

But I also think to myself well maybe if Toriyama had planned to redeem Vegeta all along (this certainly wasn't his plan when Vegeta was first introduced) then he would have toned down how "evil he made Vegeta" in the beginning, And it is also not just about Vegeta being redeemed. It's the fact that Bulma and the Z-fighters would accept Vegeta as one of their own when he is really shown to be the same as Freeza at this point (just well you know not as powerful). And yeah he saved Gohan and Kuririn because he needed them and he cried but they also make sure to establish that he is evil right before Bulma asks him to stay lol.

Which brings me back to the first point: why is there a line drawn for how sold on an idea we're allowed to be? If you're committed to there being a line, how do you determine the best place to draw it? Why does Vegeta killing children cross it? I'd say that the more sold we are that he's a vicious monster, the more impactful it is to see him become a better person.

I don't think Vegeta killing Namekians crosses the line. I think the fact that this all happens right before he joins the good guys is the problem.

It can't be a case of "well if he's that evil, then my suspension of disbelief is shattered when he does redeem himself", because we know he's already killed children. The only difference is feeling how evil he is, rather than being told. That component, the art eliciting an emotional reaction in the reader, is a good thing. If you got a sick feeling in your stomach watching Vegeta slaughter children that you otherwise wouldn't have, then I'd say that's good writing, because the author was able to elicit an emotional reaction from you.

You are completely missing why I see it as bad writing. I don't think it is bad writing in establishing an emotion or showing just how evil Vegeta is. I am saying it is bad writing when if your plan is to have this villain join the good guys and ultimately be redeemed you don't be like okay lets have him show how truly evil he is again right beforehand.

And note after this, Vegeta certainly does things that are bad and wrong (like letting Cell become Perfect) but he doesn't do anything that I think is truly evil until the Majin Vegeta incident and that he does feel remorse for showing he has changed. I just find having a character you plan to redeem kill innocent people, brag about it and then being accepted by everyone to be a bad writing choice.

[ABED]

I don't think it was even implied that Kuririn fell madly in love with 18, but he was certainly struck by her beauty and confused by what the kiss meant. It's a nice meet cute.

While killing those kids didn't give us new information about Vegeta, it certainly was an emotionally potent moment, especially in the aftermath when Kuririn makes graves for them. That scene adds a lot of emotion. It was already a mountain to climb to put him in a relationship with Bulma. I don't see how this makes it any more difficult. Honestly, even if he had planned to put the two in a relationship, I'd rather he not pull his punches and try to make Vegeta less of a monster than he truly is.

Right why do you need to make the character you plan to redeem more emotionally repugnant?

The greater the struggle, the greater the victory.

I am saying it is bad writing when if your plan is to have this villain join the good guys and ultimately be redeemed you don't be like okay lets have him show how truly evil he is again right beforehand.

But they don't show it right before hand. He doesn't become a good guy. He doesn't join the team, he strikes up a temporary alliance out of self preservation. Vegeta takes baby steps on his road to redemption. Personally I would've preferred Vegeta stay in the afterlife after helping defeat Kid Buu, but that's a different discussion. I wish they implied it was little more than a one night stand. Making them a couple down the road feels a step too far. I don't think you can redeem characters as evil as Vegeta. At best, you can have them go out doing something good.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'd say Gohan and Videl.

[Kinokima]

While killing those kids didn't give us new information about Vegeta, it certainly was an emotionally potent moment, especially in the aftermath when Kuririn makes graves for them. That scene adds a lot of emotion. It was already a mountain to climb to put him in a relationship with Bulma. I don't see how this makes it any more difficult. Honestly, even if he had planned to put the two in a relationship, I'd rather he not pull his punches and try to make Vegeta less of a monster than he truly is.

I am not saying it is not emotionally potent. I am saying its is a bad writing choice to reinforce how evil a character is that they would kill children right before you plan to redeem them.

The greater the struggle, the greater the victory.

I mean it is already a struggle without this.

But they don't show it right before hand. He doesn't become a good guy. He doesn't join the team, he strikes up a temporary alliance out of self preservation. Vegeta takes baby steps on his road to redemption. Personally I would've preferred Vegeta stay in the afterlife after helping defeat Kid Buu, but that's a different discussion. I wish they implied it was little more than a one night stand. Making them a couple down the road feels a step too far. I don't think you can redeem characters as evil as Vegeta. At best, you can have them go out doing something good.

Yes they did. Look I am not saying Vegeta became 100% good after Namek. He is a very gray character at this point in the story until Final Atonement where he finally chooses the side of good. But my point is right after killing the Namekian village he is invited into Bulma's home and fights with the Z-warriors. And heck he doesn't even just kill them, he literally brags about it right before. No Vegeta isn't good at this point but the seeds start being planted here in the Cell saga. So yeah I think its strange to plant one more seed of him being this evil villain right before all this goes down. And of course it is never dealt with. And like I said besides Dende being upset at first, Gohan and Kuririn seem to hardly care in the long run.

[ABED]

It's not a bad writing choice. Sure, the road will be longer, but writers shouldn't pull their punches. It wasn't like they had Vegeta do things he had never done before.

I get your point, it makes the mountain more difficult to climb but that doesn't make it bad writing. The added benefit of getting the audience to emotionally invest outweighs the slightly tougher road to get the audience to buy him being Bulma's babydaddy.

One thing that does make it an easier pill to swallow is that DB was never about ethics. It doesn't look down on Goku's questionable decisions to allow powerful evil warriors go for the sake of a fight.

[Kinokima]

It's not a bad writing choice. Sure, the road will be longer, but writers shouldn't pull their punches. It wasn't like they had Vegeta do things he had never done before.

I get your point, it makes the mountain more difficult to climb but that doesn't make it bad writing. The added benefit of getting the audience to emotionally invest outweighs the slightly tougher road to get the audience to buy him being Bulma's babydaddy.

One thing that does make it an easier pill to swallow is that DB was never about ethics. It doesn't look down on Goku's questionable decisions to allow powerful evil warriors go for the sake of a fight.

Well you are right about Dragon Ball not being a story about morals ha ha

And look I am less bothered about Vegeta & Bulma having a child because one I don’t think they fell in love at this point but it’s still a few years since events happened on Namek and there is a lot we aren’t privy to during this time period.

But everyone ignoring what Vegeta did directly after Namek (and him even bragging about it) seems like it wasn’t throught through

[Izanagi]

Gohan and Videl are the only good couple in Dragon Ball. Everything else are kinda shitty, and served virtually no purpose other than Toriyama wanting to pair X and Y for his own amusement or just there for the sake of plot convenience.

Vegeta and Bulma are terrible (as well are Yamcha and Bulma), the former was completely uninterested in females and he only came back to the latter because she somehow got obsessed with him and gave him a home and food (very important for those Saiyans with impossibly huge appetite). In fact, Bulma suffered quite the character derailment as a result of being paired together with Vegeta. She sometimes gave Yamcha shit for minor character flaws he had and were on an on and off relationship even before Yamcha started to see other women. Meanwhile, she's able to tolerate everything from Vegeta no matter how much of a colossal dick he is and how he killed half of her friends and killed plenty of Earthlings. In fact, it feels like she loves to get ignored and treated like just a food and training equipment dispenser plus the few times she gets to ride Vegeta's godly dick, which seems to be worth all the troubles. Basically, she got Toriyama'd because he wanted more Saiyans and there weren't enough important females in the show.

Kuririn himself suffered from character derailment in the Android arc, to the point that I honestly thought at a time he was an unlikeable twat, who was willing to trade away his best friend's life over cybersex. He was supposed to be more logical and sensible than the likes of Goku, yet, he risked the whole planet to save a stranger just because she kissed him. This is all that's shown in the story; whenever he's shown to think about 18, he's just about thinking how beautiful she looks and her kissing him. It's not even like turning 18 off would have killed her; this was the same remote Gero used on her and 17, and they didn't die when Gero used it on them. Kuririn could have just turned 18 off, go someplace safe with her and turn her back on when Cell's dead. And even if she would die, what's worse?

1) One stranger dying, saving the whole planet.
2) Saving one stranger, risking the whole planet being destroyed and eventually resulting in thousands of people, including Goku and Trunks, being killed.

He could have just brought her back to life, too. It's not even like it'd be a painful death for 18.

Goku and Chichi is the worst though. Chichi is a womanchild trying to make the perfect normal household she envisioned reading teen magazines as a little girl. She has no real regard for the reality of anyone's situation and just tries desperately to make all the square pegs of her life fit in the circle holes of her make-believe fantasy. Her dad is a former martial artist bandit king, and she's a princess who married a battle savant space warrior monkey man, and she's playing at being normal without a solid grasp on what that actually entails. Gohan is lucky he turned out as stable as he did. Goku would have honestly been better off with Bulma (or no one lol), she wouldn't force neither Goku nor his kids to lead her ideal of a "normal" life, for starters. Sure, she'd at least make sure they had a proper education, but they wouldn't force them onto a specific career path from day one.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan and Videl, with Krillin and #18 a close second. Honestly, those are the only relationships in Dragon Ball that were built on a mutual love and/or respect out one another.

The Bulma and Vegeta coupling was birthed from a one night stand that originated from Yamcha getting a horrible case of character assassination. But it blossomed into wonderful, genuine mutual love, so... I guess the ends justify the means?

Goku and Chi Chi was basically a gag shotgun marriage that was one sided on Chi Chi's part, until Goku decided to "Well, why not?". And given how (as implied in Super) Goku has never kissed Chi Chi, it's not a very intimate relationship. And it was only until Super that Goku stopped being a deadbeat dad and actually became a breadwinner for the household. So, yeah. That relationship is backwards-ass in quite a few way.

I wouldn't classify Caulifla and Kale as a couple. Any romantic feelings in that relationship is one sided on Kale's part. And even then, Super is very ambiguous as to whether the feelings from Kale towards Caulifla are of platonic, camaraderie nature or of genuine lesbian love. Please be the latter. That would be hot.

[MasenkoHA]

. Basically, she got Toriyama'd because he wanted more Saiyans and there weren't enough important females in the show.

Toriyama just isn’t all that great at writing female characters. Even pre-Vegeta Bulma’s character was pretty terribly written ESPECIALLY in early Dragon Ball when she’s basically every negative stereotype of a sexually mature female.

18 and Videl by far fair the best and that’s not saying a whole lot.

He could have just brought her back to life, too. It's not even like it'd be a painful death for 18.

With no Dragon Balls at the time?

Goku and Chichi is the worst though. Chichi is a womanchild trying to make the perfect normal household she envisioned reading teen magazines as a little girl. She has no real regard for the reality of anyone's situation and just tries desperately to make all the square pegs of her life fit in the circle holes of her make-believe fantasy. Her dad is a former martial artist bandit king, and she's a princess who married a battle savant space warrior monkey man, and she's playing at being normal without a solid grasp on what that actually entails. Gohan is lucky he turned out as stable as he did. Goku would have honestly been better off with Bulma (or no one lol), she wouldn't force neither Goku nor his kids to lead her ideal of a "normal" life, for starters. Sure, she'd at least make sure they had a proper education, but they wouldn't force them onto a specific career path from day one.

I don’t see why Chichi is wrong for wanting her son to be better than his parents just because the narrative keeps trying to paint her as a fun sucking shrew.

Chi Chi/Goku’s marriage is more depressing than anything. Goku doesn’t love Chi Chi. He married her simply because he made a promise he never understood. That’s actually really sad. And apparently he never even kissed her and not that that’s a requirement but it makes you wonder how the hell they managed to produce two kids at all. Vegeta/Bulma’s relationship was founded on poorly conceived plot convenience but at least Vegeta grew to love Bulma

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, to call this Bad Writing™ is to miss the point entirely. Firstly, it's showing Vegeta's cruelty, rather than simply telling us about it. Secondly, it makes the direness of the situation where Gohan and Krillin are forced to team up with him that much more poignant.

Yes it is bad writing if the plan was to redeem Vegeta. When you are going to redeem a character you show there is more to their character not establish just how much of a monster they are for anyone who didn't get it before (it is obvious Vegeta is evil at this point whether he killed the Namekian children or not lol).


And to say it was to show how dire Gohan and Kuririn's situation is then I think having him threaten to kill them multiple times before they teamed up should have been just as effective. And really did anyone at this point in the series go hmm I don't think Vegeta is evil enough until he killed those Namekian children. And really no one even seems to care that Vegeta killed those children (except Dende who doesn't want to heal him) . I mean its not like Gohan and Kuririn really wrestle with the morality of teaming up with Vegeta who just killed a bunch of children.

Like I said it can be excused if Toriyama wasn't planning on redeeming Vegeta or hooking him up with Bulma. Maybe he even planned to keep Vegeta dead at this point. I really don't know. I just find it strange if your ultimate goal is to redeem a villain and have them get with who one of your main female characters to have them shown to kill a bunch of children right beforehand just to show everyone how evil & dangerous Vegeta is. Because we didn't already know that.

Toriyama already established Vegeta as a genocidal psychopath. The only thing that honestly separated him from Freeza is Freeza had power and control. If circumstances were different Vegeta would have gladly been in Freeza’s position.

I’m not sure how character consistency now qualifies as bad writing? It would have been bad writing if Toriyama had just ignored that he already established Vegeta as a mass murderer

I would call Vegeta hooking up with Bulma bad writing not Toriyama having Vegeta do something consistent with his actual character