Who are the best written couple in DB?

[MasenkoHA]

There's ONE big point that you are missing about her characterization which frankly should be obvious - she's brave! She started the journey by herself and intended to complete it by herself.

Brave when she:

Tried to shoot Goku dead when he attacked her car

Decided Goku was useful as a bodyguard

Ready to ditch Goku and Turtle until she realized she would be dead in five seconds without Goku

Was ready to give turtle to the Tiger Highwayman

Only stood up to Oolong when he turned out to be a pig and was under the villagers captivity (which Goku even pointed out)



She’s not brave. Not that that’s a problem but its silly to claim she is in contrary to her actual actions beyond someone needs to teach Goku about the Dragon Balls to be his call to adventure

[ABED]

There's ONE big point that you are missing about her characterization which frankly should be obvious - she's brave! She started the journey by herself and intended to complete it by herself.

Brave when she:

Tried to shoot Goku dead when he attacked her car

Decided Goku was useful as a bodyguard

Ready to ditch Goku and Turtle until she realized she would be dead in five seconds without Goku

Was ready to give turtle to the Tiger Highwayman

Only stood up to Oolong when he turned out to be a pig and was under the villagers captivity (which Goku even pointed out)



She’s not brave. Not that that’s a problem but its silly to claim she is in contrary to her actual actions beyond someone needs to teach Goku about the Dragon Balls to be his call to adventure

The fact that she got scared at points doesn't mean she wasn't brave. It takes bravery to strike out on your own to travel the world facing unknown dangers to track down mystical objects or anything for that matter. It's borderline asinine to think that she it doesn't take a brave person to go looking for the DB's on your own. I don't know how you can honestly say that isn't a brave thing to do. Seriously, why isn't traveling the world by yourself inherently brave?

She's independent. That's another virtue.

I'll take at least one of your points specifically. Why does her trying to shoot her attacker an example of lack of bravery? That's protection, not lack of bravery.

[Izanagi]

I didn't make any ad hominem attacks against anyone. I merely pointed out that arguments like those are reflective of people with little experience with relationships.A

Then why did you have this innate urge to start bringing up my personal life and relationship experiences? I don't care about who you are as a person, I am not making any presumptions of who you are as a person, and neither should you with me. You're going off on a tangent, stay on-topic.

Character flaws are intentional character flaws regardless whether or not they are recognized in-universe by others in the story. Are you seriously trying to argue that Toriyama didn't intend Bulma to come across the way she does (even though he clearly created Bulma with these traits in mind)? And you failed to lay out exactly why its bad writing either other than your personal bias. Not all fiction is design with a moral message, so it doesn't necessarily need to address any character's flaws at all to function.

Everyone are biased. Just as you are as I have already explained myself why I think Vegeta/Bulma and Goku/Chichi are awful, which you actively opted to ignore. But it's not so much that I think these two particular couples are awful, as I think virtually every couple in Dragon Ball were really forced and with next to no build-up; Bulma/Vegeta being outright insulting with how they just randomly happened and the author trying to save face saying that a lot of things happened during the cooldown years, which is just terrible writing as almost 100% of the time, off-screen development is one of the worst ways to explain stuff.

When the hell did Nappa suggest going on a rape fest? You clearly must have made that up. And your Vegeta argument is completely weak either way since abortion is a thing if he didn't want kids, so that doesn't really imply much at all.

I am not making any of that stuff up, this is what Nappa literally proposed to Vegeta.

Spoiler:

And this is stupid. Dragon Ball is an action/gag comic targeted for children and adolescents between the ages 12-18, this isn't a seinen manga. Do you honestly think Toriyama will tackle upon mature and realistic subjects such as an abortion?

[MasenkoHA]

In Zarmack’s defense Nappa didn’t literally suggest a rape fest. But given Nappa’s suggestion was too breed hybrid children on earth until Vegeta shot it down the intent was pretty obvious since its not like Nappa was going to just court a bunch of earth women the old fashion way

[zarmack]

I didn't make any ad hominem attacks against anyone. I merely pointed out that arguments like those are reflective of people with little experience with relationships.A

Then why did you have this innate urge to start bringing up my personal life and relationship experiences? I don't care about who you are as a person, I am not making any presumptions of who you are as a person, and neither should you with me. You're going off on a tangent, stay on-topic.

Character flaws are intentional character flaws regardless whether or not they are recognized in-universe by others in the story. Are you seriously trying to argue that Toriyama didn't intend Bulma to come across the way she does (even though he clearly created Bulma with these traits in mind)? And you failed to lay out exactly why its bad writing either other than your personal bias. Not all fiction is design with a moral message, so it doesn't necessarily need to address any character's flaws at all to function.

Everyone are biased. Just as you are as I have already explained myself why I think Vegeta/Bulma and Goku/Chichi are awful, which you actively opted to ignore. But it's not so much that I think these two particular couples are awful, as I think virtually every couple in Dragon Ball were really forced and with next to no build-up; Bulma/Vegeta being outright insulting with how they just randomly happened and the author trying to save face saying that a lot of things happened during the cooldown years, which is just terrible writing as almost 100% of the time, off-screen development is one of the worst ways to explain stuff.

When the hell did Nappa suggest going on a rape fest? You clearly must have made that up. And your Vegeta argument is completely weak either way since abortion is a thing if he didn't want kids, so that doesn't really imply much at all.

I am not making any of that stuff up, this is what Nappa literally proposed to Vegeta.

Spoiler:

And this is stupid. Dragon Ball is an action/gag comic targeted for children and adolescents between the ages 12-18, this isn't a seinen manga. Do you honestly think Toriyama will tackle upon mature and realistic subjects such as an abortion?

1. I made a common sense assumption based on your opinions about these relationships. Hardly an ad hominem since I made no value judgements about you.

2. You didn't address my rebuttals to your complaints about Bulma.

3. How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

4. Rape and abortion are by no means excluded topics in Shonen and Shojo anime/manga (there are many series in those demographics that feature these things) . Japan has different standards for what is acceptable in children's media. You also ignored my rebuttal to your last argument: If Toriyama intended Vegeta to have zero interest in sex and romance then he would have never made VegeBul a reality at all, like how Tien x Lunch never became a reality despite the latter's canon attraction to the former. And even if he did, people change their interests and lifestyles all the time in real life.

[ABED]

3. How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

Are they really that popular? Given how little Vegeta and Bulma interact, this seems like a case where the audience fills in the gaps on their own.

[Lukmendes]

People keep acting like it is unrealistic for Bulma to fall for a murdering alien but ignore the fact the Z-Fighters also eventually accept Vegeta as one of their own. In the end no one really cares about his past.

As for falling in love. I don’t think B & V fell in love during the time Trunks was conceived. That was just passion. How did Bulma fall for Vegeta. Well he trained around CC half naked so well one thing lead to another. Vegeta most likely didn’t even stay around Bulma & Baby Trunks during this period.

Personally I think Vegeta & Bulma fell in love during the 7 years between Cell & Buu. They lived together, had a child, and Vegeta was beginning to accept his life on Earth. Toriyama said something about Bulma helping Vegeta overcome his lost pride (I assume he means the “I’ll never fight again at the end of the Cell arc” but who knows? )

Goku returns, Vegeta’s old issues came back & he has his midlife crises but in the end he realizes he can’t stop loving his family who despite himself he became emotionally attached to over those 7 years.

Maybe Bulma also saw a change in Vegeta and began to fall in love with him (and note Vegeta did show remorse for the spectators he killed as Majin Vegeta. He purposely worded the wish so they would come back to life. As for showing remorse for the rest of his past there is quite a lot we aren’t privy to).

From the way Trunks described it, they were both basicaly lonely and had sex, but while Bulma's feelings towards Vegeta are vague during Cell saga, Vegeta clearly couldn't care less about her or baby Trunks, he only started to care about Future Trunks after training with him, so it was the 7 years between Cell and Boo that made the actual romance happen.

He could have just brought her back to life, too. It's not even like it'd be a painful death for 18.

At the time there were no dragon balls though, sure there was Porunga and all, but the characters didn't know where New Namek was, and it was only stabilished that Goku can find it after Cell had absorbed 18.

Not saying this justifies Krillin's terrible characterization in Cell saga, just that if the remote did end up killing her, he had enough reason to think it was permanent.

Anyways, everyone in this thread is wrong, the best written couple in DB is Satan and Boo :p.

[Kinokima]

3. How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

Are they really that popular? Given how little Vegeta and Bulma interact, this seems like a case where the audience fills in the gaps on their own.

I mean Vegeta & Bulma at least are definitely popular. Even before Super there was tons of fanfiction, fan art and doujinshi for it which is probably why there is quite a lot of Vegeta/Bulma scenes in Modern Dragon Ball (well relatively speaking obviously fighting still has more focus than romance in Dragon Ball)

[ABED]

3. How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

Are they really that popular? Given how little Vegeta and Bulma interact, this seems like a case where the audience fills in the gaps on their own.

I mean Vegeta & Bulma at least are definitely popular. Even before Super there was tons of fanfiction, fan art and doujinshi for it which is probably why there is quite a lot of Vegeta/Bulma scenes in Modern Dragon Ball (well relatively speaking obviously fighting still has more focus than romance in Dragon Ball)

They were popular characters that were put together so it's not surprising, but that doesn't speak to how good they are as a couple.

Not saying this justifies Krillin's terrible characterization in Cell saga,

It's not terrible. Kuririn isn't acting out of character. They aren't utilitarians.

[MasenkoHA]

Isn’t wanting to get married Kuririn’s thing in around DBZ? Is it really that out of character for him to not want to kill or harm someone he saw as a potential partner?

Of course its silly for him to be that gone on 18 from one kiss on the cheek

Just like it was silly for Chi Chi to think she had to be Goku’s bride because he kicked her in her privates and to hold him to an agreement he made when he was 11...7 years later

Just like it was silly (to put it midly) for Bulma to get in bed with a mass murderer and accessory to her friends and ex-boyfriend’s killer

Kuririn NOT wanting to kill 18 is by far one of the least wtf moments in regards to romantic gestures

[Kinokima]

They were popular characters that were put together so it's not surprising, but that doesn't speak to how good they are as a couple.

Just saying because they are popular characters individually though kind of misses the point. Technically speaking individually Goku is more popular than Vegeta but I would argue that Vegeta/Bulma are a more popular pairing than Goku/Chichi

And I am not saying “more popular” means better written I am just contradicting you how do you know they are popular. They definitely are. And that really comes down to tropes that are popular that their relationship hits.

And this whole thing about barely interacting has gone away because they absolutely do interact in modern Dragon Ball. To the point that people complain that Vegeta/Bulma get too much focus compared to other pairings. But again that goes back to their popularity.

[Lukmendes]

Not saying this justifies Krillin's terrible characterization in Cell saga,

It's not terrible. Kuririn isn't acting out of character. They aren't utilitarians.

So Krillin being kissed in the cheek, which inexplicably makes him fall in love with 18 hard enough that he stops thinking rationaly to the point of destroying the remote control which could end up getting everyone killed, isn't, out of character? 'Cause Krillin tends to be more on the reliable side, and what he did in Cell saga just goes against his character.

Isn’t wanting to get married Kuririn’s thing in around DBZ? Is it really that out of character for him to not want to kill or harm someone he saw as a potential partner?

Him wanting to get married and seeing 18 as a potential partner is fine, how it happened and him risking everyone's lives by destroying the remote control is the problem.

course its silly for him to be that gone on 18 from one kiss on the cheek

Just like it was silly for Chi Chi to think she had to be Goku’s bride and to hold him to an agreement he made when he was 11...7 years later

Just like it was silly (to put it midly) for Bulma to get in bed with a mass murderer and accessory to her friends and ex-boyfriend’s killer

Kuririn NOT wanting to kill 18 is by far one of the least wtf moments in regards to romantic gestures

I do think all of those other romantic moments are terrible too (Well, less so about Goku and Chichi, sure it's dumb as hell, but bizarrely it feels in character for both), specialy the Vegeta/Bulma one since it made no sense with either character, doesn't mean I'll say "Oh well, those other terrible moments happened, so that mean Krillin's is okay", specialy since it goes a bit further than bad romance since he could've gotten everyone killed.

[ABED]

They were popular characters that were put together so it's not surprising, but that doesn't speak to how good they are as a couple.

Just saying because they are popular characters individually though kind of misses the point. Technically speaking individually Goku is more popular than Vegeta but I would argue that Vegeta/Bulma are a more popular pairing than Goku/Chichi

And I am not saying “more popular” means better written I am just contradicting you how do you know they are popular. They definitely are. And that really comes down to tropes that are popular that their relationship hits.

And Bulma is more popular than Chichi. And Vegeta/Bulma are rarely ever shown doing anything couple-y. Is it only in the last few years that people have come to like them as a couple? I doubt it.

So Krillin being kissed in the cheek, which inexplicably makes him fall in love with 18 hard enough that he stops thinking rationaly to the point of destroying the remote control which could end up getting everyone killed, isn't, out of character? 'Cause Krillin tends to be more on the reliable side, and what he did in Cell saga just goes against his character.

He's not in love. It's a crush. It becomes something more, but it's certainly not love. Several other points: 1) Kuririn has always liked girls and wanted to be in a relationship, 2) DB characters aren't utilitarians, 3) The whole arc begins because the team wants to fight an enemy they could've pre-emptively stopped. They aren't superheroes out to save the world. You guys HAVE to understand that.

So yes, Kuririn could've stopped Cell by pressing the button, but Kuririn wasn't actively causing the danger. He felt there was another way without having to sacrifice someone he liked. Vegeta, Dr. Gero, and Cell are the bad guys in this situation.

[zarmack]

3. How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

Are they really that popular? Given how little Vegeta and Bulma interact, this seems like a case where the audience fills in the gaps on their own.

Vegeta and Bulma interact all the time in Super. At least 3 episodes per arc puts the spotlight on their relationship.

And yes, both ships are highly popular with the general fandom. Kanzenshuu doesn't speak for most of DB fandom.

[ABED]

Forget about Super for a second. Were these ships popular prior? If so, then it's definitely due to the audience filling in the blanks and due to the popularity of the individual characters.

[MasenkoHA]

Him wanting to get married and seeing 18 as a potential partner is fine, how it happened and him risking everyone's lives by destroying the remote control is the problem.

Of course its a problem just like Goku letting Vegeta go after he killed all their friends (at a time if I recall correctly they werent sure they were coming back) doesn’t mean its out of character for Kuririn.

Kuririn never struck me as a “For the greater good” type he has an infactuation with 18 she wasn’t a threat therefore he couldn’t bring himself to kill her

It’s like if you had to throw one person off a sinking ship (and its someone you know and had some attachment to in Kuririn’s case) to save everyone else on board? Some people could (the needs of the many...) some people can’t. I think its consistent with Kuririn’s character that he falls in the latter

specialy since it goes a bit further than bad romance since he could've gotten everyone killed.

I would argue in Kuririn’s mind he still believed they could stop Cell from absorbing 18 without killing her.

[Kinokima]

And Bulma is more popular than Chichi. And Vegeta/Bulma are rarely ever shown doing anything couple-y. Is it only in the last few years that people have come to like them as a couple? I doubt it.
.

If you think Vegeta & Bulma are only popular because they are individually popular characters then yes you don’t understand why this is a popular pairing.

And yes Vegeta/Bulma were extremely popular well before they stared having a lot of interaction in modern Dragon Ball. But it still hit tropes in DBZ. I mean you have the former villain sacrificing himself for his family and then Vegeta finally decides to fuse with Goku when he mentions Bulma lol or getting mad when Goku tries to let Old Kai have Bulma.

Also I know it’s filler but the scene of Bulma telling Vegeta to take a shower or when she takes care of him when he is injured.

Like I know there wasn’t a lot in DBZ but it was enough to get the imagination going and TPTB saw the popularity and well here we are with Vegeta/Bulma getting tons of focus in modern Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

If you think Vegeta & Bulma are only popular because they are individually popular characters then yes you don’t understand why this is a popular pairing.

I guess I don’t understand why its a popular couple for any reason other than Vegeta is a popular character and Bulma is a female character who isn’t Chi Chi. (IS 18 x Vegeta a thing in Dragon Ball Fanshipper circles?)

I get the popularity in Super because Vegeta has been shown to be a far better husband than Son Goku. But in DBZ?

And yes Vegeta/Bulma were extremely popular well before they stared having a lot of interaction in modern Dragon Ball. .
.

That speaks way more to the ridiculousness of shipping in fandom in the first place. Especially a work of fiction like Dragon Ball

[ABED]

Telling someone to take a shower? What great sexual tension! Other than the one filler episode where she treats his wounds, there's literally nothing showing them to be an interesting couple.

If you think Vegeta & Bulma are only popular because they are individually popular characters then yes you don’t understand why this is a popular pairing.

If there aren't moments showing them as a couple or sexual tension or connection, I fail to see how they become a popular pairing besides them being a canon couple who were popular as individuals. It can't be because of the moments of them as a couple because there aren't really any to speak of. If I don't understand, then explain it to me without going into Super.

[Lukmendes]

Him wanting to get married and seeing 18 as a potential partner is fine, how it happened and him risking everyone's lives by destroying the remote control is the problem.

Of course its a problem just like Goku letting Vegeta go after he killed all their friends (at a time if I recall correctly they werent sure they were coming back) doesn’t mean its out of character for Kuririn.

Honestly, Goku wanting Vegeta to be spared to fight him later is an odd one too, Goku had no problems thinking that he killed Tao Pai Pai or King Piccolo, never even regretted "killing" them because he wanted to fight them again later on, but then starting with Piccolo he wanted to spare some people to fight them later (Somewhat justified with Piccolo since killing him would kill Kami, he doesn't want that, but he also says he doesn't want to lose his "arch enemy"), so arguably the Vegeta being spared one is arguably even worse since it contradicts how he acted before.

Kuririn never struck me as a “For the greater good” type he has an infactuation with 18 she wasn’t a threat therefore he couldn’t bring himself to kill her

It’s like if you had to throw one person off a sinking ship (and its someone you know and had some attachment to in Kuririn’s case) to save everyone else on board? Some people could (the needs of the many...) some people can’t. I think its consistent with Kuririn’s character that he falls in the latter

He isn't the "for greater good" kind, but he does try to save his friends, and I'd give him some credit if he didn't want to use the remote also because they didn't do much evil (Since the worst they did at that point was steal a truck, though they also said they were gonna kill Goku), but the story clearly shows that he didn't use the remove only because his boner for her was too strong, in other words, if Cell had absorved 18 instead, he would have no problem using the remote on 17 and 16, so the "he won't kill innocents to save the world" point isn't something the story shows with the androids.

specialy since it goes a bit further than bad romance since he could've gotten everyone killed.

I would argue in Kuririn’s mind he still believed they could stop Cell from absorbing 18 without killing her.

He went to the androids with the remote planning to use it on them because Cell could absorb 18, and that's after he saw Vegeta so clearly beating the living hell out of Cell, and when he destroyed the remote, he told 18 and 16 to run, so he wasn't really trusting Vegeta and Trunks to handle Cell.

If there aren't moments showing them as a couple or sexual tension or connection, I fail to see how they become a popular pairing besides them being a canon couple who were popular as individuals. It can't be because of the moments of them as a couple because there aren't really any to speak of. If I don't understand, then explain it to me without going into Super.

It's how shipping works overall, sometimes just the idea of two characters being together is enough for people, and while there isn't much for Vegeta and Bulma, the self destruct moment and Bulma somehow feeling that Vegeta was dead shows that there was something in there, those moments being one of the few good romantic moments in the series help too, and fans like to fill in the rest with their imagination.