DB's Revival

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:31 pm

They aren't stupid! Their goal isn't to save the world like superheroes. They want to fight the cyborgs. Letting Dr. Gero complete them is a smart way to accomplish that goal don't you think?
we get very little if any indication that these characters are perfectly willing to jeopardize the entire Earth in favor of their own challenge in a fight.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but what show are you watching? Goku lets both Piccolo and Vegeta go for the same reason - he wants to fight them. When he's fighting Piccolo at the tournament, he doesn't allow anyone to interfere even when he's losing blood and can't move his limbs. He puts victory above expediency and saving the world.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:It just comes completely out of nowhere and blatantly only happens for plot convenience and no other reason whatsoever.
It's a logical and consistent escalation of what came before (and what happens after):

- Defeats foes like Black and Demon King Piccolo outright
- Meanwhile, competes in tournaments and learns about other strong guys that aren't necessarily evil, but might be, but are also just strong dudes
- Plays along knowing who Piccolo (Jr.) is, competes like normal, gives Piccolo a senzu because he wants to fight him again
- Tries trusting Raditz, backfires, gives life up for it
- Lets Vegeta live because he wants to fight him again, recognizing the peril he's placing everyone in by doing so
- Lets everyone leave Planet Namek, but keeps himself there, so he can finish the fight with Freeza
- Yo cut it out I wanna fight these robots
- Almost learns his lesson with Boo, tries to leave it to the kids, mistakes happen, but takes responsibility in the end
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:38 pm

The revivals or the parts of revivals I've liked the most are where the story and characters move forward. It helps a lot if the shows didn't get a real ending. DB doesn't fall into that category by a long shot.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:41 pm

ABED wrote:They aren't stupid! Their goal isn't to save the world like superheroes. They want to fight the cyborgs. Letting Dr. Gero complete them is a smart way to accomplish that goal don't you think?
we get very little if any indication that these characters are perfectly willing to jeopardize the entire Earth in favor of their own challenge in a fight.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but what show are you watching? Goku lets both Piccolo and Vegeta go for the same reason - he wants to fight them. When he's fighting Piccolo at the tournament, he doesn't allow anyone to interfere even when he's losing blood and can't move his limbs. He puts victory above expediency and saving the world.
This isn't about Goku. This is about the entire cast standing there contemplating this. Goku is a moron that is obsessed with fighting. And that's fine. But the entire other cast suddenly also takes it upon themselves to morph into Goku's mentality.

Additionally, regardless of whether or not it makes sense for everybody and their mother to take on this mentality, they blatantly contradict the mentality multiple times in the same arc.
VegettoEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote:It just comes completely out of nowhere and blatantly only happens for plot convenience and no other reason whatsoever.
It's a logical and consistent escalation of what came before (and what happens after):

- Defeats foes like Black and Demon King Piccolo outright
- Meanwhile, competes in tournaments and learns about other strong guys that aren't necessarily evil, but might be, but are also just strong dudes
- Plays along knowing who Piccolo (Jr.) is, competes like normal, gives Piccolo a senzu because he wants to fight him again
- Tries trusting Raditz, backfires, gives life up for it
- Lets Vegeta live because he wants to fight him again, recognizing the peril he's placing everyone in by doing so
- Lets everyone leave Planet Namek, but keeps himself there, so he can finish the fight with Freeza
- Yo cut it out I wanna fight these robots
- Almost learns his lesson with Boo, tries to leave it to the kids, mistakes happen, but takes responsibility in the end
Yeah Goku. What about the entire rest of the cast? And again, even if this was a reasonable escalation of previous events, they go back on this premise almost immediately afterwards in multiple instances.

This ends up being the mentality for everyone in the Buu arc too, but this is where it started.
ABED wrote:The revivals or the parts of revivals I've liked the most are where the story and characters move forward. It helps a lot if the shows didn't get a real ending. DB doesn't fall into that category by a long shot.
I don't see how Dragon Ball doesn't fall under this category
Last edited by PFM18 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:44 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:They aren't stupid! Their goal isn't to save the world like superheroes. They want to fight the cyborgs. Letting Dr. Gero complete them is a smart way to accomplish that goal don't you think?
we get very little if any indication that these characters are perfectly willing to jeopardize the entire Earth in favor of their own challenge in a fight.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but what show are you watching? Goku lets both Piccolo and Vegeta go for the same reason - he wants to fight them. When he's fighting Piccolo at the tournament, he doesn't allow anyone to interfere even when he's losing blood and can't move his limbs. He puts victory above expediency and saving the world.
This isn't about Goku. This is about the entire cast standing there contemplating this. Goku is a moron that is obsessed with fighting. And that's fine. But the entire other cast suddenly also takes it upon themselves to morph into Goku's mentality.

Additionally, regardless of whether or not it makes sense for everybody and their mother to take on this mentality, they blatantly contradict the mentality multiple times in the same arc.
It's not sudden. They've always gone along with it. They aren't quite as driven by the love of fighting as he is, but they've always allowed it as they understand his code. Piccolo is a fighter by nature and former demon. Tenshinhan is driven by the love of battle. They aren't stupid, they just have a different code. They aren't superheroes.
I don't see how Dragon Ball doesn't fall under this category
DB is long and has several endings.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:47 pm

ABED wrote:It's not sudden. They've always gone along with it. They aren't quite as driven by the love of fighting as he is, but they've always allowed it as they understand his code. Piccolo is a fighter by nature and former demon. Tenshinhan is driven by the love of battle. They aren't stupid, they just have a different code.
So then if they go along with the mentality, and they love fighting, why would they actively make an effort to stop Gero from activating 16, 17 and 18? Why would everyone be pissed at Vegeta for letting Cell reach his Perfect form? Vegeta was the only one that stayed consistent.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:49 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not sudden. They've always gone along with it. They aren't quite as driven by the love of fighting as he is, but they've always allowed it as they understand his code. Piccolo is a fighter by nature and former demon. Tenshinhan is driven by the love of battle. They aren't stupid, they just have a different code.
So then if they go along with the mentality, and they love fighting, why would they actively make an effort to stop Gero from activating 16, 17 and 18? Why would everyone be pissed at Vegeta for letting Cell reach his Perfect form? Vegeta was the only one that stayed consistent.
If you want to talk about this more extensively, start a thread of its own. It's off topic. I just wanted to say they weren't acting stupid. They do constantly put the world in danger for the sake of a fight. As Mike and I have pointed out, there are numerous examples of this.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:51 pm

ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not sudden. They've always gone along with it. They aren't quite as driven by the love of fighting as he is, but they've always allowed it as they understand his code. Piccolo is a fighter by nature and former demon. Tenshinhan is driven by the love of battle. They aren't stupid, they just have a different code.
So then if they go along with the mentality, and they love fighting, why would they actively make an effort to stop Gero from activating 16, 17 and 18? Why would everyone be pissed at Vegeta for letting Cell reach his Perfect form? Vegeta was the only one that stayed consistent.
If you want to talk about this more extensively, start a thread of its own. It's off topic. I just wanted to say they weren't acting stupid.
I was just explaining to you why the entire situation is hilariously stupid as a counterpoint to a comment that somebody else made. They were acting stupid, and not even consistently stupid, they contradicted that same logic multiple times in the same arc.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:53 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
So then if they go along with the mentality, and they love fighting, why would they actively make an effort to stop Gero from activating 16, 17 and 18? Why would everyone be pissed at Vegeta for letting Cell reach his Perfect form? Vegeta was the only one that stayed consistent.
If you want to talk about this more extensively, start a thread of its own. It's off topic. I just wanted to say they weren't acting stupid.
I was just explaining to you why the entire situation is hilariously stupid as a counterpoint to a comment that somebody else made.
And I was correcting an obviously incorrect statement you made. Whether their actions are asinine are debatable, but contrary to your statement, they often put the world in danger for the sake of a fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:55 pm

To be fair, I'd say there's more good than bad in regards to Modern Dragon Ball, at least to me.

Pros:
  • Dragon Ball: 2007 Special - The Mightiest Warrior of Japan's History Award (or something along those lines)
  • Dragon Ball: 2008 Special - Hey!! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! (the only time we ever saw Tarble, I think)
  • Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit (Original Soundtrack by Kenji Yamamoto)
  • Dragon Ball: Raging Blast (fairly decent soundtrack, fantastic theme song but the visuals looked amazing!)
  • Dragon Ball: Raging Blast 2 (ft. Kenji Yamamoto Score)
  • Dragon Ball: Raging Blast 2 - Original Soundtrack CD (it's rare and does exist but it does cost a pretty yen)
  • Dragon Ball: The Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans (fun little special, not my fave though)
  • Dragon Ball: Episode of Bardock (loved seeing Bardock go Super Saiyan and the score was really good)
  • Dragon Ball Kai (Original Soundtrack by Kenji Yamamoto)
  • Dragon Ball Kai: Super Battle Stage, Live Show (if anyone wants a live-action version of Dragon Ball then this is it)
  • Dragon Ball Kai: Original Soundtrack Vol. I-III CDs (pity Vol. IV never came out)
  • Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butoden (unfortunate this was a Japan-exclusive but the DS was region-free anyway)
  • Dragon Ball Kai: The Final Chapters - Original Soundtrack, Digital Edition (hated it on the series but musically, it's pretty good)
  • Dragon Ball: Ultimate Blast CGI Anime Cutscenes
  • Dragon Ball: Xenoverse Beta (the BGM that played on the menu was freaking awesome and I could have sworn that was Yamamoto's)
  • Dragon Ball Z: The Real 4-D (such a shame this hasn't been released yet on Blu-ray or even just digitally on iTunes/Amazon/Netflix)
  • Dragon Ball Super - The Dr. Slump Crossover Episode
  • Dragon Ball Super: Movie 1 - Broly (can't wait, it looks mind-blowing)
  • Dragon Ball: FighterZ
  • Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Butoden
  • Dragon Ball & Z Movies/Specials remastered properly in HD on Blu-ray (and digitally)
  • Super Dragon Ball Heroes (like it but only for the GT characters, the rest just kinda fucking sucks)
Cons:
  • TOEI Animation hiring Sumitomo to compose all of Dragon Ball music for shows and movies (to be fair, Sumitomo's Super Broly music has sounded damn good so far).
  • Dragon Ball Super series (watched it till episode 60, then jumped back in around 100~120 but never actually liked the show, too many transformations/repetitive)
  • Dragon Ball: Xenoverse 1 & 2 (just button-mashers though you could say they're this generation's Tenkaichi 3)
So, in my opinion, the good outweighs the bad. Think this about does it.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:57 pm

I wouldn't consider the video games as part of the revival as they never went away.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:59 pm

ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote: If you want to talk about this more extensively, start a thread of its own. It's off topic. I just wanted to say they weren't acting stupid.
I was just explaining to you why the entire situation is hilariously stupid as a counterpoint to a comment that somebody else made.
And I was correcting an obviously incorrect statement you made. Whether their actions are asinine are debatable, but contrary to your statement, they often put the world in danger for the sake of a fight.
You didn't give any examples of the group putting the world in danger in for the sake of a fight. You just gave a couple irrelevant examples of Goku in isolation.

You also didn't address anything else I said, like how they blatantly contradicted themselves multiple times in that same arc.
too many transformations/repetitive)
our main characters used the same final transformation from the time of the previous movie to the end of the entire 131 episode run. SSB before Super was announced, and SSB when it was over. Z had far more frequent transformations.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:14 pm

I honestly could’ve left it at Battle of Gods. That film felt like a breath of fresh air when it first came out, and it would’ve worked just fine as its own little thing, but then they had to go ahead and keep churning out new content, which is how we got boring junk like Minus and Ressurection ‘F’ as well as Super, which has been a mixed bag for me.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:37 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I was just explaining to you why the entire situation is hilariously stupid as a counterpoint to a comment that somebody else made.
And I was correcting an obviously incorrect statement you made. Whether their actions are asinine are debatable, but contrary to your statement, they often put the world in danger for the sake of a fight.
You didn't give any examples of the group putting the world in danger in for the sake of a fight. You just gave a couple irrelevant examples of Goku in isolation.

You also didn't address anything else I said, like how they blatantly contradicted themselves multiple times in that same arc.
too many transformations/repetitive)
our main characters used the same final transformation from the time of the previous movie to the end of the entire 131 episode run. SSB before Super was announced, and SSB when it was over. Z had far more frequent transformations.
First, I said this is off topic. If you want to continue, create another thread. Second, his friends never stop him so it's a tacit endorsement of Goku's choice. His friends enthusiastically go along with him when they decide to fight the cyborgs. Third, even if Z had far more frequent transformations, the cumulative effect of Super doesn't help matters.
I honestly could’ve left it at Battle of Gods.
So could I. Others have pointed out that with perhaps a few tweaks, it could've acted as another ending to DB.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by Doctor. » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:53 pm

PFM18 wrote:This is 1000% true. Frankly, I don't see how you can argue otherwise, or at least argue in favor of the original being less stupid. I think people don't view them in the same lens, probably because they saw the original series for the first time when they were much younger.
I don't really care about addressing how stupid a certain premise sounds, because you can reduce everything to sound stupid on paper. I was talking about the actual way that certain plot beats are addressed and the way the narrative is told; they are not the same. Execution is the key word here, and something that seems to be lost in every debate I've ever had with you. Super and Z might both have bad writing, but the way their stories are told is fundamentally different.
PFM18 wrote:Take the Cell/Android arc for example.
This is really low-hanging fruit. Most people here agree the Cell arc is a low point of the series. It's easy to pick apart a long arc and point out every dumb decision made by a character, even when most of them are in-character, but you can literally spot contradictions or incongruities from one episode to the next in Super due to the lack of planning and coordination between the various members of the staff.
PFM18 wrote:It just comes completely out of nowhere and blatantly only happens for plot convenience and no other reason whatsoever.
As for this, it's ironic, because Beerus kickstarts Super in the exact same way. Again: execution matters. This is a particular point that I'd actually give to Super. Beerus feels more believable than the androids, no matter how blatantly convenient their appearances end up being.
PFM18 wrote:Look at the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Piccolo Daimao arcs. They quite literally have the same formula. Our heroes and some evil party are looking for the Dragon Balls, Goku fights them, loses, and then drinks some fucking water in order to gain enough power to turn the tables. (The power boost in the RRA arc isn't directly from the water, but it is still associated with the water.)
I'm also not a fan of the Piccolo Daimao arc. Who are you arguing with?

I think the original series has mediocre or bad arcs. I can spend all day here talking to you about how bad the Cell or Piccolo Daimao arcs are. At the same time, I think the original series has great arcs, and I could equally spend that time talking about the Saiyan or Namek arcs. I can't spend that time talking positively about Super because I think all of its arcs are mediocre or bad. So there's no point, absolutely none, in pointing toward the original series and saying "see, this part here is bad" because I'll just agree with your arguments and point to a part I think is good, whereas with Super there's simply no way I could do that. There's no point in refuting criticism of Super by criticizing the original series, because if the person agrees with your criticisms, then what? Where do you go from there? Defend Super on its own merits.

There's no hypocrisy here; and I say this because you seem to be fixated on this narrative that everyone who defends the original series and criticizes Super is hypocritical.
PFM18 wrote:Super has stupid power-ups? Like ya know, a legendary ritual or training with a God that can literally destroy the Universe in an instant? Well, the original drinks some fucking water to get a huge power-up. Much more reasonable.
And I reiterate myself again, because this is important: while the original series may have had bad writing, it was either a) very sparse and confined to specific arcs, or b) extremely trivial in comparison to what you can find in Super. I don't care about excusing the original series' faults; they're there, but the series makes up for it in other ways. Super, on the other hand, not only fucks up much more frequently, with mistakes that are far more pronounced, but it also lacks in compensating for it.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:37 pm

ABED wrote:I wouldn't consider the video games as part of the revival as they never went away.
Sure but it was somewhat part of the new era of Dragon Ball as they were developed for high definition consoles.

I'm still annoyed that Bandai hasn't released (and probably will never at this point) "Burst Limit 2" since the first one had such a sequel-bait ending but I guess the game didn't sell too well to warrant a second entry. Then again, it's pointless now because Yamamoto is no longer around so the game with different music just wouldn't be the same.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:46 pm

I have been enjoying it f**king immensely. It's helped whipe away shitness that was post Freeza arc and ugly transformations like SS & SS3 and gave us amazing well designed forms like SSG, SSGSS & UI.

Jaco, Beerus, Whis & U6 characters great characters and made me realise that fun new characters was what DB was missing since well I guess pre Z. Helped develop existing characters like #17 & 18 Vegeta. Something the original story hardly touched on. Seeing Goku etc work and provide for his family like they're actually fleshing out the characters and the world around them? Who knew that could happen in DB!

#130&131.

Then it gave us Black & Zamasu and the pair didn't take long to ingrain themselves within the fandom. RF outfits, despite it's short time, I still miss them :( greatful we had them though. Bringing back Kaioken in a big way & a way to further differentiate SSGSS.

New movie shaping up to be amazing and if the narrative holds up will be the best thing to ever come out this franchise.

Long live Dragon Ball! :)

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:06 pm

I'm mixed on it, like most here.

Dragon Ball Kai might be faster-paced than Z, but the Japanese cast isn't performing to the best of its abilities, Norio Wakamoto coming to mind. Sabat said in an interview that they needed Kai more than the Japanese and that's true. To me, Kai is only really worth watching for the English dub (despite not caring much for the Funi cast).

Super can be hit and miss, but I still prefer it over GT. BOG is good, RoF is bad.

Dragon Ball Minus is one of the worst things to ever happen to the franchise. Like I said, I'm not fond of the idea of softening Bardock and it annoys the hell out of me that they're incorporating Minus into the new movie even if I'm still watching it.

It's really 50/50.
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Re: DB's Revival

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:I'm mixed on it, like most here.

Dragon Ball Kai might be faster-paced than Z, but the Japanese cast isn't performing to the best of its abilities, Norio Wakamoto coming to mind. Sabat said in an interview that they needed Kai more than the Japanese and that's true. To me, Kai is only really worth watching for the English dub (despite not caring much for the Funi cast).

Super can be hit and miss, but I still prefer it over GT. BOG is good, RoF is bad.

Dragon Ball Minus is one of the worst things to ever happen to the franchise. Like I said, I'm not fond of the idea of softening Bardock and it annoys the hell out of me that they're incorporating Minus into the new movie even if I'm still watching it.

It's really 50/50.
I agree with all of this. You basically matched my opinions.

I would also add that Yo Son Goku and Friends Return is underrated.

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Re: DB's Revival

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 am

Some of you are forgetting that NONE of the Z Fighters accept Gohan can be considered a "Good Guy" in the traditional Super hero type of sense. Most of Goku's friends are either Former mass Murderers (Vegeta,Boo) or former mass murderers to be (Tien, Piccolo JR). Hell even Yamcha was a bandit meaning that prior to meeting Goku, he probably stole from and even hurt/killed many people. Chances are that Krillin only pursued Martial Arts for selfish reasons, hence why he couldn't ride Kinto'un. Beerus is literally the God of killing stuff.

Dragon Ball isnt about guys learning how to fight to save people, its about Guys who love to fight, get themselves into sticky situations, find ways out of it and make new friends because of it. Gohan does not fit that mold, which is why he was axed as the main character. Goku and Vegeta Fight because they love it, Gohan and maybe even Future Trunks will only fight if they have no other choice. Two totally different mind-sets.

ON Topic, most of the new stuff has been hit or miss. Almost None of Super's material mean anything , the only story with any lasting impact is Battle of Gods since most of the new lore it introduced was slightly expanded upon in later material. Nothing in Super post the Beerus arc has had any lasting impact. You could literally pluck out the Goku Black stuff and the rest of Super would go on just perfectly.
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