This series has held up so good to me.

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Forte224
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Forte224 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:04 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:^ A fan who appreciates quality products is willing to wait as long as it'll take, that's why I'm still waiting for the Ocean Dub Kai to be premiered. Between FUNimation's shitty Season Blu-rays and piracy, I hate to admit but I'd rather take the latter over torturing myself with that disgrace.
This is just such a ridiculous comment. A fan that wants to watch Z legally will watch it legally in whatever way possible. The blu rays are currently the easiest and most financially sound way to do so outside of streaming it on FUNimation's website. Why are you sitting here dictating what a fan would do?
Ridiculous is to assume everyone would be willing to watch DBZ cropped to 16x9, DNR'd and doesn't even look remotely good.

You might be okay watching that shit but not me.
My point was that a fan who cares about quality can still watch the blu rays if they simply want to watch Z, just like many people who care about quality watch the 4:3 Z movie singles despite their poor quality, simply because they want to see the movies 4:3. Not everyone that cares about quality is willing to wait years for something that isn't even confirmed to exist or be localized.

But, I guess this isn't on topic.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball GT, over the last year and all three shows hold up very well.
Uhh are you sure?

But yeah DB especially holds up really well IMO. I rewatched DB/DBZ and it was fantastic but the latter half of DBZ seemed to drag a bit.
Yeah. I think GT is pretty good. It works efficiently as epilogue to Toriyama's story.
I thought you didn't like GT?
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Uhh are you sure?

But yeah DB especially holds up really well IMO. I rewatched DB/DBZ and it was fantastic but the latter half of DBZ seemed to drag a bit.
Yeah. I think GT is pretty good. It works efficiently as epilogue to Toriyama's story.
I thought you didn't like GT?
I thought the same lol.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Yeah. I think GT is pretty good. It works efficiently as epilogue to Toriyama's story.
I thought you didn't like GT?
I thought the same lol.
I re-watched all of GT last year, and I found it to be far better than I remembered.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:57 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: going from DB to Z to GT than DB to Kai to Super, particularly subbed. :)
Kai is best watched in isolation with Super as a follow up I think. It just doesn’t work as a sequel to Dragon Ball because its attitude is straight up “This Goku kid is an alien here’s a quick recap of his early adventures “ It just kills momentum to go from Dragon Ball to Kai

So to me Dragon Ball>Z>GT

Kai>Super
I disagree. Even if you're making the rather silly assumption that DB and Z are vastly different stories, Kai works perfectly well as a follow-up, especially because of the recap. Like many follow-up series such as Kai TFC or Super, it opens with a recap(In fact, because of TFC and Super doing recaps, it would be inconsistent if it didn't open with a recap). However, Kai 1.0 keeps things interesting by opening with a part of the story you haven't seen yet that puts the recap in a different light, and sets up for Raditz's arrival.
So... I don't see how that doesn't work. It'd be like saying going from Kai 1.0 to Kai 2.0 doesn't work, because Kai 2.0 opens with a recap of the events of Kai 1.0, which takes up a quarter of TFC #1's runtime. In fact, Kai 1.0's recap is quite short, and very purposeful; it opens showing us Goku's origin, which you won't have seen before, then briefly gives us the recap of what we've already seen, then gives us the info it's been leading up to -- despite the relative peace Goku and co. have brought about on earth, there's now a threat coming from space, which is what the brief narrated recap at the beginning of Z explained, just in much longer fashion, and with the Goku being an alien reveal placed at the beginning to start you off with an immediate "Things are different now."

I think DB+Z+GT works better, but DB+Kai+Super isn't totally non-functional, and it's far better than skipping DB, which is always a stupid thing to do.

It’s not totally non-functional but it is a bit odd watching Dragon Ball and ending it still under the pretense Goku is just some weird monkey boy thing and then follow up with the first episode of Kai immediately telling you he’s an alien matter of factly from the get go. Rather than Z picking up 5 years where DB left off with a new threat who reveals to the characters and the audience Goku is an alien. And I’m not here to argue against the importance of Dragon Ball or that its a completely different story (that’s Funimation’s fault and Toei hasn’t helped in the last 10 years) but Kai was definitely made with the assumption that nobody really watched or cared about the original Dragon Ball.

Granted if someone really wanted to watch Kai after Dragon Ball instead of DBZ I would at least skip the entire prologue.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm

I don't see how that's fundamentally different from watching an episode of the series. They all have recaps.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:14 pm

ABED wrote:I don't see how that's fundamentally different from watching an episode of the series. They all have recaps.
It’s not the recap part as much as the whole introducting Goku immediately as an alien in Kai.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:31 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
ABED wrote:I don't see how that's fundamentally different from watching an episode of the series. They all have recaps.
It’s not the recap part as much as the whole introducting Goku immediately as an alien in Kai.
Then I don't understand the point. It would be ridiculous to start a show with that sort of plot twist like it means something to the audience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:26 am

When I gave Dragon Ball another shot I was expecting it to be insufferable, for the usual reasons- "Toriyama writes silly stuff, weak characterization, it gets out of hand, he kind of runs out of tricks after a while", etc. But of course a return involves going through the Japanese anime properly, with all of the instantly loving the Japanese cast and Kikuchi OST that entails, appreciating the series composition with adult eyes ("Surprisingly flimic, does a good deal with a little"), and catching on to that underlying sense that Toriyama is doing whatever he thinks is fun at the moment and is just inviting you along. Cipher nailed it describing Toriyama as "whimsical nihilism", and boy does it let the series do a lot of silly things without getting you thinking too much about it! :lol: I was actually surprised at how much I enjoyed Battle of Gods, any misgiving I have with it ultimately give way to Toriyama just doing his thing. Shame the rest of the revival did not land so well...
Kunzait_83 wrote:Wuxia, if not in that exact term then certainly as a baseline concept, in most Asian parts of the world has that same innately reflexive instant recognition in the mainstream among plenty of average people: you reference it, and people in certain parts of the world immediately see in their head Kung Fu warriors in a faraway ancient Chinese setting (or some variation thereof) flying around the skies, knocking down mountains with their palms, projecting Chi from their bodies, wielding magic weapons, and fighting demons and other martial artists for honor, pride, etc.

So long as you at a bare-most minimum have THAT basic-most understanding, the same way people do with those other genres, then you're generally golden. I certainly do not believe, nor have I EVER insinuated, that one needs to have seen every single King Hu movie and read every last Gu Long novel from A to Z and have a scholars' understanding of ancient medieval Chinese poetry and literature within the genre. All you need is that same instant "average person in a supermarket"'s grasp of its basic-most tropes and imagery that most every other nerdy genre has in the mainstream zeitgeist. Dragon Ball generally doesn't ask much more of its audience than that: don't forget, its main target audience was Japanese 7 year olds.
Funny enough for me, as one who did grow up under a rock in some aspects, kid me never had a problem with this. Martial arts fiction was thing, and thus it was easier to simply accept that folks in gis were fighting aliens and robots because that was cool. A lot of FUNi's attempts to familiarize it were just jarring- why does the green alien reference David and Goliath, why are we calling the ragtag "Earth's Special Forces" as if they are at all formal and organized?
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
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BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:09 am

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Cipher nailed it describing Toriyama as "whimsical nihilism", and boy does it let the series do a lot of silly things without getting you thinking too much about it! :lol: I was actually surprised at how much I enjoyed Battle of Gods, any misgiving I have with it ultimately give way to Toriyama just doing his thing. Shame the rest of the revival did not land so well...
To be clear, when I've tossed out that phrase, it's to refer not only to that sense of pure self-indulgence/desire to allow the audience to have fun, but a tendency to infuse those elements with a bit of real sentiment--primarily of a variety that acknowledges some of humanity's worst elements while neither disparaging nor championing them, and which often eschews any moral growth in its protagonists in favor of showing the positive results of initiative and interpersonal bonds.

This is the man who begins the Boo arc by having the narrator state that after a few years of peace, humanity was quickly up to foolishness again because that's just the kind of being humans are, who sends God into Dr. Slump to consider wiping out all of humanity (a beat repeated in both Jaco and Jiya, for that matter). His protagonists endanger the world nearly as often as they save it; his pantheons of divine beings are largely ineffective and petty. Then there's Cashman, which is ... Cashman. Of course everything I just listed is also completely, utterly whimsical, and intentionally comical as well.

That phrase is also in reference to the fact that he's written essentially the same story every time he's put pen to paper: a group of seflish weirdos come together to do accidental good, while not really growing as people, but at least forming bonds through their drive. (The idea being then, without necessarily championing their selfishness a la Rand or someone similar, that personal initiative and connections to others are in themselves the positive moral influences of this universe, and worth serious weight, while everything else including humanity's most destructive tendencies are
simply ripe for laughter.)

This is all to say, he goofs around, and prioritizes goofing around, but within that goofing around are some pretty clear sentiments about the world. He claims to have no themes--and I believe that as far as intentionality--but you don't goof around the exact same way twenty-plus times because you've nothing on your mind. This is all to say, one of the reasons Toriyama's work holds up so well, in addition to his brilliance as a comic artist and humorist, is that, in both its gleeful self-indulgence and its consistency in reflecting certain world views, you get the sense you're experiencing something with very little filter. That's never going to age badly in comparison to something intentionally written to pander. (And Dragon Ball does pander, but only when Toriyama or one of the editors he greatly trusted seems to believe pandering would be most fun--both for the audience and themselves.)

Some of its early choices for humor not withstanding (and it shouldn't take great imagination to guess which ones I'm referring to), Dragon Ball's aged like fine wine.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:08 am

That phrase is also in reference to the fact that he's written essentially the same story every time he's put pen to paper: a group of seflish weirdos come together to do accidental good, while not really growing as people, but at least forming bonds through their drive.
That's not the same story, that's not a story at all. One of the reasons DB will age well is because for years it didn't tell the same story. It changed things up time after time. It wasn't even afraid to get rid of its villains and move on.

DB isn't nihilistic, even whimsically. Goku has a purpose. Toriyama doesn't take things super serious overall, but it would disingenuous to even imply he undercuts everything for the sake of a joke. I think Toriyama's more of a slight cynic than an outright nihilist.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:19 am

ABED wrote:That's not the same story, that's not a story at all. One of the reasons DB will age well is because for years it didn't tell the same story. It changed things up time after time. It wasn't even afraid to get rid of its villains and move on.
Not the same story repeatedly within a single work. The same story between different works.

Many, many of his short works, and his two long ones (Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball) share basic elements and themes. The plot structure can vary wildly, but the starting and ending points tend to have a lot in common. Selfish loners, coming together and forming bonds because of one person's drive, and doing accidental good, describes like 75 percent of his manga. At least.

"Whimsical nihilism" isn't a completely serious label--he's not actually a nihilist--but there's a kind of weary resignation to the idea of self-destructive tendencies throughout his work in a way that's often mined for humor, and never really receives any commentary in terms of the idea that it needs to change. People are going to do what people are going to do, the universe is going to do what it's going to do, often times both are absurd and petty, but it's all good because we can go after things we believe in, make friends, and laugh along the way. And that sentiment is pretty much always championed--in terms of its outcomes in the story--over traditional do-gooding.

(But really, Sand Land, Jaco, Jiya, "Kintoki" is one of the more absurd runs of writing literally the same story over and over again, "Pink" is "Pola and Roid" is "Mad Matic" is "Chobit" is "Tongpoo" is "Dragon Boy," and Slump and DB are pretty much the same ideas blown up to a massive, serialized scale. I'm not saying that's remotely bad; many artists wind up telling one story different ways over their careers, and it's not because they're out of ideas; it's because they have something on their mind. As long as it doesn't feel like something calculated for an audience, it's a mark of sincerity, which I think is there in spades throughout Toriyama's work no matter how silly and/or crowd-pleasing it gets.)
Last edited by Cipher on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:26 am

Cipher wrote:
ABED wrote:
That phrase is also in reference to the fact that he's written essentially the same story every time he's put pen to paper: a group of seflish weirdos come together to do accidental good, while not really growing as people, but at least forming bonds through their drive.
That's not the same story, that's not a story at all. One of the reasons DB will age well is because for years it didn't tell the same story. It changed things up time after time. It wasn't even afraid to get rid of its villains and move on.
Not the same story repeatedly within a single work. The same story between different works.

Many, many of his short works, and his two long ones (Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball) share basic elements and themes. The plot structure can vary wildly, but the starting and ending points tend to have a lot in common. Selfish loners, coming together and forming bonds because of one person's drive, and doing accidental good, describes like 75 percent of his manga. At least.

"Whimsical nihilism" isn't a completely serious label--he's not actually a nihilist--but there's a kind of weary resignation to the idea of self-destructive tendencies throughout his work in a way that's often mined for humor, and never really receives any commentary in terms of the idea that it needs to change. People are going to do what people are going to do, the universe is going to do what it's going to do, often times both are absurd and petty, but it's all good because we can go after things we believe in, make friends, and laugh along the way.
That's still not a story. It's a common thread running throughout his stories. What you are talking about is a writer's voice.

I think Toriyama is weary over the bad he sees in the world, but still has a hopeful outlook. I get that he doesn't think people will change, but what I also get is the feeling that because there's enough good in the world, it makes the ride worth it. There has to be better descriptor than whimsical nihilism.

While Toriyama's views haven't influenced mine, they are fairly similar. The history of mankind is brutal, but as long as there's enough good in it and you have people to share the journey with, it makes it all worth it. In fact that's a common thread in most of the stories I enjoy.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by Cipher » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:31 am

ABED wrote:I think Toriyama is weary over the bad he sees in the world, but still has a hopeful outlook. I get that he doesn't think people will change, but what I also get is the feeling that because there's enough good in the world, it makes the ride worth it. There has to be better descriptor than whimsical nihilism.
Then we're on the same page (except for the use of "voice" as a descriptor of writing elements; his voice is the way he paces scenes, the type of dialogue and designs he employs, and other execution elements that leave a page feeling distinctly Toriyama--what I've been discussing is premise and thrust; it's story). ("Writing the same story over and over again" is also a fairly common way to describe an artist overturning the same ideas repeatedly, even if the content differs--as in they're always after communicating one thing and trying to find the best way to do it.)

"Whimsical nihilism" is something I first threw out as a joke tweet regarding the way the Boo arc begins. If you want to call what you just wrote something else, by all means go for it. As long as we agree about what's going on in his work--and it seems like we do--I don't really need or want a battle over the semantics there.

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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:35 am

Cipher wrote:
ABED wrote:I think Toriyama is weary over the bad he sees in the world, but still has a hopeful outlook. I get that he doesn't think people will change, but what I also get is the feeling that because there's enough good in the world, it makes the ride worth it. There has to be better descriptor than whimsical nihilism.
Then we're on the same page (except for the use of "voice" as a descriptor of writing elements; his voice is the way he paces scenes, the type of dialogue and designs he employs, and other execution elements that leave a page feeling distinctly Toriyama--what I've been discussing is premise and thrust; it's story).

"Whimsical nihilism" is something I first threw out as a joke tweet regarding the way the Boo arc begins. If you want to call what you just wrote something else, by all means go for it. As long as we agree about what's going on in his work--and it seems like we do--I don't really need or want a battle over semantics.
Voice also includes what you have to say, not merely how you say it, but yes, we are in overall agreement.

It's not surprising that his work shares a lot of common elements even though Dr. Slump and DB are very different.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: This series has held up so good to me.

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Cipher wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Cipher nailed it describing Toriyama as "whimsical nihilism", and boy does it let the series do a lot of silly things without getting you thinking too much about it! :lol: I was actually surprised at how much I enjoyed Battle of Gods, any misgiving I have with it ultimately give way to Toriyama just doing his thing. Shame the rest of the revival did not land so well...
To be clear, when I've tossed out that phrase, it's to refer not only to that sense of pure self-indulgence/desire to allow the audience to have fun, but a tendency to infuse those elements with a bit of real sentiment--primarily of a variety that acknowledges some of humanity's worst elements while neither disparaging nor championing them, and which often eschews any moral growth in its protagonists in favor of showing the positive results of initiative and interpersonal bonds.
Oh I have read some of your thoughts at length and know it was meant as a catch-all term. Maybe not the most helpful phrase without context, but I must have figured that it communicated Toriyama's lighthearted spontaneity in tandem with his lack of explicit messaging even on the face.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

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