Super Boo: The worst form of a main villain ever?

[Lukmendes]

One point is one point. It's not a line, it's not a pattern. It's not some radical shift of an established character. We're just meeting him. Given how fickle many of the other forms have been, it doesn't surprise me that he's erratic. He's a kid.

Uh, I know, the whole point I was making is that he changed his attitude, and that changed attitude is the same one villains before him took, minus the dialogue, and that made him less interesting to me once he started to act like that.

[ABED]

One point is one point. It's not a line, it's not a pattern. It's not some radical shift of an established character. We're just meeting him. Given how fickle many of the other forms have been, it doesn't surprise me that he's erratic. He's a kid.

Uh, I know, the whole point I was making is that he changed his attitude, and that changed attitude is the same one villains before him took, minus the dialogue, and that made him less interesting to me once he started to act like that.

Why? What would've been so much more interesting if he was just out to kill them in the most expedient manner possible? How would that have been consistent with what we've been shown up to this point? Even though Buu changed a bunch of times, a common element throughout it all is that he has a malevolent whimsy about him. He's a big pink bubble gum monster who likes turning people into food. His attitude isn't the same as the villains before him. The only similarity is that he draws things out but they all do it for different reasons.

And if you do know what I'm talking about, why do you insist that he changed?

[Majin Buu]

Goku himself admits that Kid Boo was just dragging out the fight: https://i.imgur.com/dzK25dj.png

The other fights show this too, the second Vegeta fight being the most note worthy, since Vegeta couldn't even transform, and Kid Boo had just seen the genki dama and was going to try to stop Goku, as soon as Vegeta shows up he forgets all about that to sadisticaly beat down Vegeta.

Admittedly I forgot about that line, though I always figured that line was more in reference to him purposely regenerating slowly just to taunt Goku rather than drawing out the fight for sadism (when he notices Vegeta charging at him he quickly finishes reforming and starts fighting again).

[Dbzfan94]

Well Boo is the worst main villain ever by far,(not including GT) so it makes sense that one of his forms would be the worst form of a main villain ever. I don't necessarily agree with Super Boo being the worst form, at least that form was capable of forming a sentence. Although, I think normal Super Boo is the best of the bunch, and frankly every other iteration of Boo is just boring trash. It's a toss-up between Kid Buu, Fat Buu, Buutenks and Buuhan for which one is the biggest pile of garbage.

He can’t be the worst villain if Jiren exists.

[PFM18]

Well Boo is the worst main villain ever by far,(not including GT) so it makes sense that one of his forms would be the worst form of a main villain ever. I don't necessarily agree with Super Boo being the worst form, at least that form was capable of forming a sentence. Although, I think normal Super Boo is the best of the bunch, and frankly every other iteration of Boo is just boring trash. It's a toss-up between Kid Buu, Fat Buu, Buutenks and Buuhan for which one is the biggest pile of garbage.

He can’t be the worst villain if Jiren exists.

Jiren isn't a villain. And the entire arc isn't centered around him either. So it isn't even remotely an analogous comparison.

Still, I prefer Jiren as a character to Buu.

[Dbzfan94]

Well Boo is the worst main villain ever by far,(not including GT) so it makes sense that one of his forms would be the worst form of a main villain ever. I don't necessarily agree with Super Boo being the worst form, at least that form was capable of forming a sentence. Although, I think normal Super Boo is the best of the bunch, and frankly every other iteration of Boo is just boring trash. It's a toss-up between Kid Buu, Fat Buu, Buutenks and Buuhan for which one is the biggest pile of garbage.

He can’t be the worst villain if Jiren exists.

Jiren isn't a villain. And the entire arc isn't centered around him either. So it isn't even remotely an analogous comparison.

Still, I prefer Jiren as a character to Buu.

Jiren is the central antagonist of the ToP. From the beginning that was the case. He may not be evil but the comparison can still be made

And he doesn’t even have a character for 90% of the arc. I know you love Super more than Z, but come on now.

[PFM18]

He can’t be the worst villain if Jiren exists.

Jiren isn't a villain. And the entire arc isn't centered around him either. So it isn't even remotely an analogous comparison.

Still, I prefer Jiren as a character to Buu.

Jiren is the central antagonist of the ToP. From the beginning that was the case. He may not be evil but the comparison can still be made

And he doesn’t even have a character for 90% of the arc. I know you love Super more than Z, but come on now.

He is the "central" antagonist but the plot doesn't revolve completely around him. It's not even comparable to Buu and the entire arc is a result of him and his evil deeds and what not. Jiren's character doesn't affect the arc as much as Buu's does. It is also not analogous because he's simply not a villain and Buu is.

Oh, and I disagree about him not having a character in the first place.

I don't love Super more than Z. How can you know something that isn't true? The closest thing I said to that is just that if this Broly movie lives up to it's potential then it could surpass Z. I never said I loved Super more than Z.

[ABED]

The Broly movie is the difference between Super surpassing Z or not?

[PFM18]

The Broly movie is the difference between Super surpassing Z or not?

Yeah. Both of them are very close in my mind, in terms of how I view their overall work, and this Dragon Ball Super movie, that takes place in the actual official DBS continuity, could tip the scale in DBS's favor as far as I'm concerned.

[ABED]

The Broly movie is the difference between Super surpassing Z or not?

Yeah. Both of them are very close in my mind, in terms of how I view their overall work, and this Dragon Ball Super movie, that takes place in the actual official DBS continuity, could tip the scale in DBS's favor as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see how. Just by virtue of Freeza returning for the nth time, Z is by far a better product. The first two arcs of Super took two movies and pulled the taffy. Considering that the Saiyan arc is one of the best arcs Toriyama ever did, with some of his best art, Vegeta's arc, and Freeza, it would be a Herculean task for Super to be even close to Toriyama's manga. Even without having seen it, the trailer alone with them going back to the well with Freeza, Planet Vegeta, fundamental changes being made to Goku's origin, and making Broly canon guarantees that it couldn't tip the scales in Super's favor.

[PFM18]

The Broly movie is the difference between Super surpassing Z or not?

Yeah. Both of them are very close in my mind, in terms of how I view their overall work, and this Dragon Ball Super movie, that takes place in the actual official DBS continuity, could tip the scale in DBS's favor as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see how. Just by virtue of Freeza returning for the nth time, Z is by far a better product. The first two arcs of Super took two movies and pulled the taffy. Considering that the Saiyan arc is one of the best arcs Toriyama ever did, with some of his best art, Vegeta's arc, and Freeza, it would be a Herculean task for Super to be even close to Toriyama's manga. Even without having seen it, the trailer alone with them going back to the well with Freeza, Planet Vegeta, fundamental changes being made to Goku's origin, and making Broly canon guarantees that it couldn't tip the scales in Super's favor.

Dude, you haven't even watched/read Super. You have no idea how they compare.

Freeza returning does not make something inherently bad. Or even define it's quality in any capacity. That's ridiculous.

The fact that the first two arcs are retellings has absolutely no bearing on how these two Super arcs should be evaluated. It simply has no bearing on their merit as arcs in their own right, they are entirely independent products of the movies. That being said, Those may still be the worst two arcs in the series. As far as I'm concerned, the Zamasu arc is also one of the best arcs that Toriyama has ever done. With the ToP following close behind. The difference is, the Z/post Raditz portion of the original series, is consumed in large part by the Buu arc, which is ridiculously long, boring, and just generally has very few if any redeeming qualities. The Cell arc has tons of problems too, even though I do still like it a lot. Overall, in the end they end up being very close IMO.

[ABED]

Just those facts alone disqualify it. It's bad enough Freeza was brought back for the nth time for the movie only to lose for the same reason he did the first time then to have it made into an episodic arc? And it absolutely has bearing on this issue. You can't separate them from the fact that they are adaptations. The lack of originality isn't a plus for Super. Then there's the Broly movie. It goes back to the well to give answers to questions that no one was asking. We know what we needed to know about Planet Vegeta's end two decades ago. Goku being a castoff from his race was genuinely compelling. This film will take that fact away.

The lack of originality in Super is a huge detraction and one of the reasons I'm not eager to watch it. Super by its nature keeps the characters in stasis. Super takes place between Buu's defeat and the end of the series. We know how Z ended, meaning, we know where the characters ultimately end up.

Toriyama didn't do the Zamasu arc. He came up with some ideas, that's it.

While I agree that the Buu arc is very long and much of it is boring (Gotenks and Great Saiyaman, I'm looking at you), it has plenty of moments, some of them genuinely great.

[PFM18]

I don't really know why we are even having this conversation when you haven't even seen it. You have no idea one way or the other.

[quot="ABED"]Just those facts alone disqualify it. It's bad enough Freeza was brought back for the nth time for the movie only to lose for the same reason he did the first time then to have it made into an episodic arc? [/quote]

How can such a little notion that means so little within the scope of the entire series disqualify it? That matters very little. Especially since the way he was brought back was in a very coherent way that fit very nicely into the story, and his inclusion in the final arc of the anime was fantastically executed, and we see an entirely new side of his character. The fact that he "lost for the same he reason he did the first time" means absolutely nothing. Resurrection F means very little in the series, and not even remotely where the series draws it's quality from, it is almost irrelevant. Resurrection F is a precursor to his return in the ToP, which again, his inclusion is executed fantastically where we see another side of the character, and his inclusion was a very natural, coherent development within the story. And then of course we see him again in the Broly movie.

And it absolutely has bearing on this issue. You can't separate them from the fact that they are adaptations.

It really doesn't. They are completely independent of the movies, they are arcs in the Dragon Ball Super series. The fact that it appears elsewhere is irrelevant to their merit as arcs.

Then there's the Broly movie. It goes back to the well to give answers to questions that no one was asking. We know what we needed to know about Planet Vegeta's end two decades ago. Goku being a castoff from his race was genuinely compelling. This film will take that fact away.

The Broly movie doesn't exist solely to answer questions about the past. It does, but that's not the draw of the movie. It is a big part of the movie that adds interesting background info, even if it isn't necessarily 110% necessary to understand the Saiyans and where they stand in things. Goku being a castoff is still a thing, Broly is a send off out of fear and it is explained that he shouldn't be sent off because only low-class warriors are sent off planet. Of which Broly is not, AKA Goku is still a send-off for being a lesser member of his race. Obviously Minus is trash, and it doesn't help things, but as far as I can tell from the movie, Bardock is simply sending him away early.

Toriyama didn't do the Zamasu arc. He came up with some ideas, that's it.

He wrote the outline for the arc just as he did any other. And even if he didn't "do" the Zamasu arc, how the hell does that make it bad? Something can't be bad purely on the grounds that it wasn't made by Toriyama.

While I agree that the Buu arc is very long and much of it is boring (Gotenks and Great Saiyaman, I'm looking at you), it has plenty of moments, some of them genuinely great.

It is outrageously long and boring to the point where it becomes a chore watching it through to the end. I honestly can't think of anything genuinely great about that arc. It fucks up almost anything you could think of. Watching/reading it again recently made me realize it is even worse than I originally thought. WAY WORSE than I originally thought.

I disagree about the Great Saiyaman arc. if anything was at least decent, it was the Great Saiyaman portions of the arc. Seeing Gohan interacting with normal humans and normal life is interesting, and it is silly and funny in situations that are genuinely silly and funny, rather than trying to be silly in situations that are dire, and not really silly in a fun way. (Gotenks.)

[DBZAOTA482]

Bootenks/Boohan is really no worse than Perfect Cell. Which is kind of the problem considering how droll and bland Cell is.

While I do think that persona works for Buu here because of what I posted earlier, it's true that Cell is kind of bland in terms of character. He's basically Freeza without the character traits that made Freeza interesting.

There's way more similarities between Cell and Boo than there is between Freeza and Cell.

[ABED]

Overusage or overexposure of anything is bad. I like Freeza, but Super's overreliance of him, no matter what "development" Freeza has works in the series favor. I think you're dismissing far too many of the valid criticisms like that and the overall lack of originality in order to justify your point. Bringing back a villain only to lose for the same exact reason is not a trivial detail, it's a waste of time. That's not progress on a story that constantly progressed. Bringing back a big bad over and over again is what superhero comics and Saturday morning cartoons do.

I'm not sure which form I like less, Cell's second form or Buu's intermediate forms.

[Dbzfan94]

I don't think that anyone would argue that the execution of some of the villains in DBZ isn't good, or even spectacular in certain instances. I happen to think the saiyan saga is the best the entire Dragon Ball franchise has to offer.

But if, for example, we could've gotten a small glimpse into Vegeta and Nappa's hatred for Freeza during that saga, it would've turned the two of them from "we're assholes who want to rule the universe" into "we're damaged goods who are trying to exact revenge on a horrible tyrant, and we're so broken that we'll stop at nothing to do it". It would've added a special emotional impact to the bad guys that would have only improved the gravity of the arc.

Would it though? We don’t need a tragic backstory for every villain. That’s just pretty lame and worn out which is what Naruto especially beat to death

[Majin Buu]

There's way more similarities between Cell and Boo than there is between Freeza and Cell.

In terms of personality, Cell is more or less Freeza without the faux politeness that makes Freeza interesting. Cell and Buu are very different in terms of personality until Buu absorbs Piccolo and Gotenks.

[zarmack]

Bootenks/Boohan is really no worse than Perfect Cell. Which is kind of the problem considering how droll and bland Cell is.

While I do think that persona works for Buu here because of what I posted earlier, it's true that Cell is kind of bland in terms of character. He's basically Freeza without the character traits that made Freeza interesting.

There's way more similarities between Cell and Boo than there is between Freeza and Cell.

Not true at all.

Personality wise, Imperfect Cell is Freeza+Piccolo, Semi-Cell is Freeza+Vegeta, and Perfect Cell is Freeza+Goku.

Super Buu (especially in base) doesn't have much in common with either of these 4.

[Cursed Lemon]

Would it though? We don’t need a tragic backstory for every villain.

No, we certainly don't.

EDIT: Post 666, I am your new kami.

[SupremeKai25]

I much prefer Super Boo over Kid Boo. At least the former has an actual personality, some sort of elegance, and some kind of motivation that drives him forward. The latter is just an animal who wants to destroy everyone because he is completely crazy. B-O-R-I-N-G. I am not saying that every Dragon Ball villain should be as complex and multi-layered as Goku Black/Zamasu, but the writers could at least try to make them more elaborate than a simple rabid child who wants to kill everyone.

To be honest I prefer Kid Buu to Zamasu. For me it got tiresome and a little annoying listening to Zamasu's speeches over and over. I didn't even find him that multi-layered, as it's clear from the moment we meet him he sees himself as being better and more important than mortals. If he was supposed to come across as a sympathetic villain he fell short.

Kid Buu on the other hand is simplicity at its finest. Just a primitive killing machine with no pretense whatsoever and a great final villain.

I mean, if you really enjoy villains who keep their mouth shut, appear for a short amount of time and are all around absolutely insane, I suppose that that is fine. Otherwise, I really can't see how Kid Boo is better than Zamasu. Zamasu has sensible motivations (if I were a God, I too would try to restore peace and order throughout the cosmos. Not through genocide, but upholding divine laws should be the goal of every good God), an expanded backstory (several episodes were devoted to exploring Zamasu's mentality and descent into madness), a multi-layered personality (as much as you can expect from Dragon Ball, I suppose, though I love the various nuances of Zamasu's hypocritical personality), and a unique gimmick (being the only Kai in the history of Dragon Ball who went rogue).

Kid Boo makes for a scary villain, of course, and you are entitled to prefer him over Zamasu. But objectively, Zamasu, and Super Boo too, are much more complex than Kid Boo.

Point is, people are too harsh on Super Boo. Sure he might have not been so original or amazing, but in my opinion he was much more entertaining to watch than the following villain who was just a mindless beast.