Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

[KBABZ]

The networks and such having shows made to sell toys because TV cartoons in and themselves don't maky money, doesn't mean the art itself is without merit.

While true, would you consider He-Man art?

Yes. It's just not good art.

A child painting stick figures on a canvas is art as much as the Mona Lisa, even if one is a piece of high art, while another is simply a crude child's drawing.

Similarly, He-Man is as much art as Adventure Time, Ben 10, Batman: The Animated Series, or Gargoyles are art. It's just a fairly crappy, transparent toy commercial compared to the other, generally much better-written material that people would typically consider the "True art" of the medium.

There are positive interpretations of products meant to sell toys or market some other product, too! The original Kanto arc in Pokémon I think is pretty good at telling a story as well as making Pokémon look cool, not to mention the excellent Transformers Animated. And Dragon Ball itself; at a certain point the anime existed as much to tell Toriyama's story as it did to advertise the franchise itself, particularly in promotional material.

Sports games aren't art. They are games. They aren't stories. Games like Final Fantasy 7 and Bio-Shock told stories.

I disagree on the basis that a game doesn't have to have any storytelling in order to be art. Horizon Chase for example has literally no story and is a racing game, but I would consider it art on some level because, among other reasons, it captures the aesthetic of classic arcade racers like Top Gear and makes it presentable for a modern era, which more me looks very aesthetically pleasing. I also think that gameplay should also be considered art. Just moving characters like Mario or driving a car in Burnout Paradise can feel sublime all on its own.

[Super Sayian Prime]

On one hand, modern Dragon Ball material appears to have long since hit creative bankruptcy. It's gotten so bad I'm just indifferent to the nonsense Toriyama and Toei throw out there.

On the other hand, looking at what's happening to Saint Seiya's reboot I'm not sure tainting the original material is a good idea either.

[Zephyr]

Sports games aren't art. They are games. They aren't stories. Games like Final Fantasy 7 and Bio-Shock told stories.

I disagree on the basis that a game doesn't have to have any storytelling in order to be art. Horizon Chase for example has literally no story and is a racing game, but I would consider it art on some level because, among other reasons, it captures the aesthetic of classic arcade racers like Top Gear and makes it presentable for a modern era, which more me looks very aesthetically pleasing. I also think that gameplay should also be considered art. Just moving characters like Mario or driving a car in Burnout Paradise can feel sublime all on its own.

Yeah, you don't have to tell a story for something to be art. What "story" does the Mona Lisa tell? I fail to see how game design isn't an art form.

[ABED]

I didn't say it did, but in the context of video games, yes, there needs to be a story. There can be artistic aspects, but that doesn't make it art. Again, you're splitting hairs.

at a certain point the anime existed as much to tell Toriyama's story as it did to advertise the franchise itself, particularly in promotional material.

The anime was a recreation of Toriyama's manga.

[KBABZ]

at a certain point the anime existed as much to tell Toriyama's story as it did to advertise the franchise itself, particularly in promotional material.

The anime was a recreation of Toriyama's manga.

I dunno, when I look at things like the Otherworld Tournament or the Garlic Jr. arc I see attempts at making awesome new characters to sell toys of later through the multitudes of side characters they introduce who amount to less than most Buu arc characters. Yeah the anime was retelling Toriyama's story first and foremost, but you can't seriously be telling me they brought back Garlic Jr. because he was a compelling character who had more stories to tell.

[HakkaiBills93]

Please no reboot, it's really boring that lacking creativities, so much franchise get a reboot
when a thing is finish, just let the things over that's all
no reboot for nothing
you can just see future saint seiya netflix reboot will be an insult to the original manga

dragon ball already suffer lot of disrespectful things like all those shit release, all the irregularity in new series in front of old ones that i don't want the insult go beyond

[ABED]

at a certain point the anime existed as much to tell Toriyama's story as it did to advertise the franchise itself, particularly in promotional material.

The anime was a recreation of Toriyama's manga.

I dunno, when I look at things like the Otherworld Tournament or the Garlic Jr. arc I see attempts at making awesome new characters to sell toys of later through the multitudes of side characters they introduce who amount to less than most Buu arc characters. Yeah the anime was retelling Toriyama's story first and foremost, but you can't seriously be telling me they brought back Garlic Jr. because he was a compelling character who had more stories to tell.

I didn't see that at all. I saw attempts to stall for time so as to not get ahead of the manga. And I don't see too many kids lining up to buy a Garlic Jr. action figure.

[Zephyr]

I didn't say it did, but in the context of video games, yes, there needs to be a story.

Alright, but why are video games specifically beholden to this random, made up rule that obviously doesn't apply elsewhere?

There's splitting hairs, and there's being genuinely puzzled by blatant and arbitrary inconsistency.

[ABED]

I didn't say it did, but in the context of video games, yes, there needs to be a story.

Alright, but why are video games specifically beholden to this random, made up rule that obviously doesn't apply elsewhere?

There's splitting hairs, and there's being genuinely puzzled by blatant and arbitrary inconsistency.

It's splitting hairs because it's not the topic of the thread. It was a response to a minor point instead of the crux of the argument. I'm sorry I bit, but let's get away from the digression and back to the topic of whether the original DB needs a reboot. If you want to have this discussion PM me, otherwise, let's agree to move on.

[MaGyunia]

I can't see why Dragon Ball should need a reboot... Honestly. For what purpose, for animation quality? Dragon Ball started as a slice of life anime, then Toriyama gradually saw the potential to turn it into something really serious and more violent, with the introduction of Tenshinhan but especially with the introduction of the first true insanely evil antagonist: Piccolo Daimao. After that it's all serious (constant battles, blood, deaths, genocides, violence, etc., throughout DBZ).

When Dragon Ball was exported to Europe and started being broadcast in the countries' respective dub (Portugal, Spain, France, Italy) in the early nineties my generation grew up watching the entire Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Z sequence from beginning to end in chronological order (back then it was just simply impossible to get your hands on any footage in Japanese, unless you were in Japan), so if the purpose of a potential but highly unlikely reboot (now or at any time in the future, for that matter...) is to show the younger generation who wasn't even born when Dragon Ball started airing in some countries in the early nineties how Dragon Ball was a series, following it, it wouldn't work and hence it would be a huge waste of time and money, for at least two reasons: that younger generation has the concept of Goku as an adult, along with everybody else, but especially Goku. They would find it strange and maybe even ridiculous to see Goku as a kid. The quality of the animation and of the choreography of the fights is much, much lower than the average of DBZ, DBZ's Movies, DBSuper. Leave Dragon Ball alone in its rightful, eternal place.

[KBABZ]

The quality of the animation and of the choreography of the fights is much, much lower than the average of DBZ, DBZ's Movies, DBSuper.

Err, I respectfully disagree with this. Considering Dragon Ball is much more rooted in hand-to-hand martial arts, it's able to display much better choreography as the combatants fight and dodge each other during combat. Even just the short fight between Krillin and the Orin Temple bully at the 21st Tournament shows much better choreography than the "loop the characters punching and kicking" trick that became a standard fall-back after the Saiyan arc. To say nothing of beam spam or putting the focus on one big ki attack.

Personally I think the main problem Toei has with the original Dragon Ball anime (and Z of course) is how old it is. Not in terms of "oh that looks bad so it's old" but more that it shows its age, which for them is a very bad thing. It's not animated digitally, it isn't widescreen, the colors have dulled and fogged up practically, and its got lots of grain. That is BAD from their perspective, because that contrasts heavily with the clean, sharp, bright, digital look they've been going for with Super, the modern, hip and cool new Dragon Ball product they're making. With Z they figured it was popular enough to warrant the Kai remaster/re-edit treatment, but OG Dragon Ball does not have popularity on its side. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Toei decided to do a Z remake but ignored the original anime entirely.

And again (not directed at you specifically, MaGyunia) the prospect of remaking just Dragon Ball is ridiculous, because that means you're only remaking half of a complete story that was already based on an existing, complete, all-in-one-go work!

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The anime was a recreation of Toriyama's manga.

I dunno, when I look at things like the Otherworld Tournament or the Garlic Jr. arc I see attempts at making awesome new characters to sell toys of later through the multitudes of side characters they introduce who amount to less than most Buu arc characters. Yeah the anime was retelling Toriyama's story first and foremost, but you can't seriously be telling me they brought back Garlic Jr. because he was a compelling character who had more stories to tell.

I didn't see that at all. I saw attempts to stall for time so as to not get ahead of the manga. And I don't see too many kids lining up to buy a Garlic Jr. action figure.

Yes but the movies were a thing and that I think validates KBABZ's previous point about how to Toei DB become more than trying to tell Toriyama's story, those movies were made for nothing but to make money and the content was nothing like their tv specials which at least attempted to expand/explore some unexplored aspects of DB from Toriyama's work. It was through the movies that Toei tried to make SS a thing, tried to make SS forms (through LSS Broly) a thing, they even had the idea of a Goku and Vegeta fusion, they knew of these potential marketable aspects of DB that later Toriyama himself would incorporate luckily for them.

[ABED]

That just comes off to me as "I don't think it's good, ergo there's some impure motive behind it."

[KBABZ]

That just comes off to me as "I don't think it's good, ergo there's some impure motive behind it."

That's not to say I think they're bad, but in a similar way to how Super introduces new forms every arc to drum up hype and create more merchandise, I don't feel that same urge to really explore the world and characters of Dragon Ball via the movies. The comparison to the Specials is apt one: there you see genuine attempts at exploring the backstory of a mysterious character (genuinely expanding upon the work that inspired it), and in the other we're introduced to a brand new character with his own arc that deepens the story, and was so liked by the creator the title character was formally inducted into his original work as he was writing it! Compare the Bardock Special to Episode of Bardock, where it really just seems like an excuse to give Bardock Super Saiyan and make him seem cooler by being the origin of the Super Saiyan myth (which was contrived to the point that the writers snapped the suspension of disbelief like a twig getting it to work). And yes while Broly is getting his own Toriyama-approved film, he only used that because Toei said that Broly was popular. I don't see Tapion getting his own canon induction anytime soon.

To provide another example, the GT Special with Goku Jr. at least told the story of a brand new character who was unlike any protagonist the franchise had seen up until that point, and he gets a proper story arc to go through. And even GT was bold enough to try new things, attempt expanding the lore and come up with a great concept for a final arc. I think the closest the movies ever come to this is the introduction of Cooler, but I think it says a lot that they wrote the story by making a cool subtitle first and then coming up with a cool new villain to fit that. As opposed to writing a cool and unique story to tell.

[ABED]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're getting at beyond talking about your preference for how filler should be done.

For the record, I don't care for the GT special. It's boring. I'll take an exciting side story that does little more than give me a fun fight over a slog even if it does have an arc. It feels so banal and un-Dragon Ball. It's all a matter of execution so I don't care if it expands on backstory or if it's just a fun 60-90 minute romp as long as it's interesting. At least if the filler doesn't try to create a backstory, there's less of a chance of it being overwritten by the original author.

[Robo4900]

At least if the filler doesn't try to create a backstory, there's less of a chance of it being overwritten by the original author.

I honestly still really enjoy the filler that gives fake backstories. Gives the show something of a lived-in, mythic feel to it. Sure, Roshi's explanation of the origin of the Dragon Balls is total baloney, but that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting tale for him to tell, something of an expansion of the mythology of the world, and honestly just a fun little sequence.

It's like how the Darth Plagueis scene is the best scene from Revenge Of The Sith; it's not some grand revelation of backstory, it's a legend we're being told -- it may be true, it may have come from some grain of truth that's been distorted over time, it might just be something invented for the moment based off of some vaguely real facts. Whatever the case, it's interesting to see, as long as it's well done, and in Star Wars' case, its actual purpose in the story and the circumstances around which it's told make it utterly fascinating.

So, yes, the Saiyans weren't destroyed by a god sending comets down on them, but it's interesting that this myth would be passed around...

That just comes off to me as "I don't think it's good, ergo there's some impure motive behind it."

I agree, but I would also note there's a second level to this: Impure motive behind its conception =/= evil devil product. If that was the case, you'd find absolutely everything you enjoy is an evil devil product, because in a capitalist world, things only really get made if they can make money, and ultimately everything is made to make money. So, singling out something you dislike as this is not just a case of "thing i don't like is the devil", it's also very much a case of using arguably a potentially interesting point of discussion about the morality of media as a cheap way to try to disparage something you dislike, just because you don't like it...

[ABED]

The point of the Darth Plagueis scene wasn't about backstory and myth, it was manipulation, so there's a reason for it to exist beyond exposition. I don't want a myth for the sake of it. World building and lore don't interest me.

In the case of the story of comets/asteroids destroying Planet Vegeta, there's a bit of retconning there, but the story reason makes sense. Freeza wanted the remaining Saiyans to work for him voluntarily.

[Robo4900]

The point of the Darth Plagueis scene wasn't about backstory and myth, it was manipulation, so there's a reason for it to exist beyond exposition. I don't want a myth for the sake of it. World building and lore don't interest me.

That's totally fair.

Honestly, my favourite filler stuff is stuff like the cars episode, or the one where Goku goes to the demon world. Fun self-contained shenanigans that could've been movies or specials, but instead are part of the story, that flesh out characters, add more to the world, and tell fun stories.
But the fake worldbuilding stuff is still fun IMO.

In the case of the story of comets/asteroids destroying Planet Vegeta, there's a bit of retconning there, but the story reason makes sense. Freeza wanted the remaining Saiyans to work for him voluntarily.

Heh. Indeed.

[ABED]

Fair enough. My favorite stuff is mostly unobtrusive moments or stuff that fleshes out fights, characters, or events a little more. For instance, I like Pilaf being integrated into the first arc better than having him as the antagonist only at the very end. I also liked the extra impactful bits of fighting in the Goku vs. Vegeta fights. I also like the mirrored ship episodes. It's a nice prelude to Freeza. And I like the episodes and moments dedicated to the B-Team in the lead up to the 23rd TB. I don't know what anyone is looking for in a DB reboot. It's fine as is. DBZ needs a reboot that's better than Kai that leaves out the filler from the start, and doesn't just edit it out.

[Robo4900]

Fair enough. My favorite stuff is mostly unobtrusive moments or stuff that fleshes out fights, characters, or events a little more. For instance, I like Pilaf being integrated into the first arc better than having him as the antagonist only at the very end. I also liked the extra impactful bits of fighting in the Goku vs. Vegeta fights. I also like the mirrored ship episodes. It's a nice prelude to Freeza. And I like the episodes and moments dedicated to the B-Team in the lead up to the 23rd TB. I don't know what anyone is looking for in a DB reboot. It's fine as is.

Yeah, that stuff is pretty damn great, and I agree; DB works great as-is, and... Y'know, honestly I have a hard time thinking of any filler from DB that I really didn't like. I guess there's stuff I wouldn't really miss if it was gone, but it's not stuff I'd deliberately skip or anything.

DBZ needs a reboot that's better than Kai that leaves out the filler from the start, and doesn't just edit it out.

Well... I would say if you're going to do some of it, you might as well do the whole run. Production on the pre-Raditz era would be rather cheap and easy with this approach too, so you'd end up with a lot of extra episodes for very little work. Kai really should have done this. But, alas, it is what it is.