Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Same reason many of those same fans lambast the Japanese version. Their perception of the characters they have grown to love are so ingrained with the Texas cast either because that's what they heard first or have been exposed to most that they are unwilling to accept any other voices coming out of their mouths.

[MaGyunia]

I think it's the other way around. Europe imported and dubbed DB and DBZ in the early nineties, Funimation only imported DBZ (and at first only DBZ) in the turn of the century. Shunsuke Kikuchi's BGM/score was a huge, fundamental part of what made the series what they were. I was disgusted when I first saw the American version of DBZ many years ago: the dialogue was childish, the BGM was completely changed, the opening as well, etc. All they left untouched - because they couldn't change it - was the footage... They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon. Huge, unforgivable mistake. Funimation, at first, bastardized and raped DBZ, to the point that, as they released DVDs, a few years later they started including na additional audio track which was the English dub but with the original score after protests. Just like any other dub in the world. Why should America be different and touch that which mustn't be touched ? Trying to make DBZ a cartoon, Americanize it? No way. Luckily, the percentage of fans know better, and those who didn't learned. Besides, they screwed it up royally with the releases at first.

Funimation's handling of DBZ was quite simply disastrous. They released DBZ DVDs first, and everything mixed chronologically, and only then did they release DB, which comes first in the story, as a sequence. Many non-American fans were outraged (me included) by all of this. With the passage of time and years and new releases, they put it together and improved all of these aspects. Before it was like America trying to hijack a Japanese work of art/product. The only thing they din't change was the footage, only because they couldn't. Going back to the BGM, Shunsuke Kikuchi's score was so important that I honestly didn't put a lot of importance in the BGM aspect of DBSuper - it wasn't him. The only two tracks from Bruce Faulconer I like are Vegeta's "Hell's Bells" and the track that plays, for example, when Vegeta first turns SSJ on-screen against #19. Now, I can understand that an American who never heard the Japanese "version" might find it strange at first (typically, Masako Nozawa's voice for Goku) and thus prefer Funimation's version. And that's what it is/was: a truly different version, not just a dub of the dialogue like in all other countries and respective dubbing.

To me - and I know this is shared by the majority of long-time fans - the only "version" I pay attention to and value is the true, original, Japanese version.

[VegettoEX]

Europe imported and dubbed DB and DBZ in the early nineties, Funimation only imported DBZ (and at first only DBZ) in the turn of the century.

Quick fact-check here: FUNimation began with the original Dragon Ball in 1995, then moved to Dragon Ball Z in 1996. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe, FUNimation did not begin with Toonami in 1999. Other than the voice cast and replacement composers, all the same FUNimation-employed production staff (directors, editors, writers, etc.) that worked on "season three" in 1999 were the same ones working on it with the Ocean Studios cast in 1996.

They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon.

It is a cartoon.

I, of course, understand what you're getting at and agree with the underlying basis of what you're saying ("they tried to turn it into something it isn't, or at the very least, presented it in a way that doesn't align what what it truly is"), but that's not what you said. I think it's important to be very clear in this regard.

[Robo4900]

Europe imported and dubbed DB and DBZ in the early nineties, Funimation only imported DBZ (and at first only DBZ) in the turn of the century.

Quick fact-check here: FUNimation began with the original Dragon Ball in 1995, then moved to Dragon Ball Z in 1996. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe, FUNimation did not begin with Toonami in 1999. Other than the voice cast and replacement composers, all the same FUNimation-employed production staff (directors, editors, writers, etc.) that worked on "season three" in 1999 were the same ones working on it with the Ocean Studios cast in 1996.

I would like to additionally note that not only did Funi begin back in 1995 with DB and 1996 with Z, but both of those runs were quite successful, with DB doing decently well for itself, and Z across its 26-episode first season became successful enough that Saban opted to order 30 episodes for season 2, and aired new episodes in double bills. Across Z's syndicated run, it did pretty damn well for itself. Only reason season 3 took so long to come around was because Saban and Funi parted ways for one reason or another. Various factors lead me to say Saban just decided to drop Z from their lineup, and that's why it was canned after 2 seasons. Exactly why they dropped it... I'd rather not just wildly speculate.

So... A lot of people say Toonami is what made Dragon Ball Z popular, but I think it's more accurate to say Toonami saved Z from cancellation; I'm not sure Funi would have been able to get the show syndicated like it was under Saban, so without a deal with Toonami, it very possibly would have floundered and/or died out in the form we knew it at the time. Perhaps some other network could have picked it up, but... I dunno... Hard to say.
Toonami's role in Dragon Ball's success in the west was important, but they aren't the only reason it has any success, they just were the guys who picked it up when Saban dropped it from syndication.

[Lukmendes]

It's simple, nostalgia often makes people overrate the quality of something, and many people also confuse cool sounding voices with good voice acting, so when they hear a voice that isn't cool sounding, they'll say the voice acting itself is bad, and hell, no better example than Masako's Goku on that, since I've seen some people saying the voice acting is bad because they don't like her voice.

So yeah, nostalgia and bias against what is different, those are enough reasons for those people to dislike that other thing regardless of the actual quality.

[JohnnyCashKami]

I think it's the other way around. Europe imported and dubbed DB and DBZ in the early nineties

"Europe" is a continent so it didn't import anything, AB Groupe however did and it was how most European countries licensed to make a dub of DB, Z and GT. UK and Scandinavian countries got the 'Ocean Dub' while the rest had their own dubs regardless of how good or bad they were.

I personally really enjoy the Castillan dub despite the flaws that it has.

Shunsuke Kikuchi's BGM/score was a huge

His music still is and it's what makes Classic Dragon Ball series and movies so good to watch. Even if it has shitty dubs like the Big Green, Portuguese or what have you.

Funimation, at first, bastardized and raped DBZ

That's a bit extreme.

To me - and I know this is shared by the majority of long-time fans - the only "version" I pay attention to and value is the true, original, Japanese version.

Well, that's fine and I wholeheartedly prefer the original Japanese version too but I also enjoy foreign dubs. Especially in Galego, Catalàn, Castellano, Canadian-English, Mexican-Spanish and Brazilian-Portuguese.

[Robo4900]

"Europe" is a continent so it didn't import anything

Everyone knows what Europe importing things means, dude. Yes, not every European country got the Westwood dubs, but everywhere outside of the USA and Australia that picked up an English version went with Westwood, so saying "Europe" or "Various European territories" is a much more concise way of saying the rather messy situation, and nitpicking this shorthand gets us no-where.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Everyone knows what Europe importing things means, dude. Yes, not every European country got the Westwood dubs, but everywhere outside of the USA and Australia that picked up an English version went with Westwood, so saying "Europe" or "Various European territories" is a much more concise way of saying the rather messy situation, and nitpicking this shorthand gets us no-where.

But the thing is, that gives the false illusion that the Westwood dub aired in every European country when folks say "Europe". Yes, most know which countries it was but there are also some who have no idea and might think all countries got it.

I'm glad that's not the case 'cause I really enjoy a lot of dubs that exist.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Everyone knows what Europe importing things means, dude. Yes, not every European country got the Westwood dubs, but everywhere outside of the USA and Australia that picked up an English version went with Westwood, so saying "Europe" or "Various European territories" is a much more concise way of saying the rather messy situation, and nitpicking this shorthand gets us no-where.

But the thing is, that gives the false illusion that the Westwood dub aired in every European country when folks say "Europe". Yes, most know which countries it was but there are also some who have no idea and might think all countries got it.

I'm glad that's not the case 'cause I really enjoy a lot of dubs that exist.

I'm assuming Robo4900 is referring specifically to predominantely English speaking countries in Europe since this thread is about English speaking fans' reception of non-Funimation dubs. I would say "English speaking European countries" would be the best way of phrasing it, as all of them aired the Westwood dub.

[MaGyunia]

I think it's the other way around. Europe imported and dubbed DB and DBZ in the early nineties

"Europe" is a continent so it didn't import anything, AB Groupe however did and it was how most European countries licensed to make a dub of DB, Z and GT. UK and Scandinavian countries got the 'Ocean Dub' while the rest had their own dubs regardless of how good or bad they were.

I personally really enjoy the Castillan dub despite the flaws that it has.

Shunsuke Kikuchi's BGM/score was a huge

His music still is and it's what makes Classic Dragon Ball series and movies so good to watch. Even if it has shitty dubs like the Big Green, Portuguese or what have you.

Funimation, at first, bastardized and raped DBZ

That's a bit extreme.

To me - and I know this is shared by the majority of long-time fans - the only "version" I pay attention to and value is the true, original, Japanese version.

Well, that's fine and I wholeheartedly prefer the original Japanese version too but I also enjoy foreign dubs. Especially in Galego, Catalàn, Castellano, Canadian-English, Mexican-Spanish and Brazilian-Portuguese.

I grew up as a child watching the Gallician dub, which started airing in TV Galicia in Spain a few years before DB and DBZ became an unprecedented success in my country, Portugal, which has many peculiar specifications which I may in the future let you know, if you already don't. It came to a point where students in faculties and universities skipped school to watch it and do the Fusion Dance, etc. In fact, regarding dubs, the Portuguese and the Gallician dub are a direct translation of the French dub, which had a major benefit: it only changed the dialogue when the characters spoke, which means they kept the original Japanese screams.

[Robo4900]

which had a major benefit: it only changed the dialogue when the characters spoke, which means they kept the original Japanese screams.

I'm sorry, but that just sounds jarring and awful to me.

[Kokonoe]

"raped".

Surely there are better ways to describe inaccurate scripts than that.

[TVfan721]

They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon. Huge, unforgivable mistake.

I am so fucking tired of this ridiculous argument and it's one that's been going on since the DBZ Uncensored days 20 years ago. ALL animes are already cartoons and DB was already a children's cartoon in Japan long before Funimation ever got a hold of it. This bullshit idea that purists have that anime is some kind of precious art form really needs to be put to rest. Anime is just a Japanese cartoon.

[ABED]

They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon. Huge, unforgivable mistake.

I am so fucking tired of this ridiculous argument and it's one that's been going on since the DBZ Uncensored days 20 years ago. ALL animes are already cartoons and DB was already a children's cartoon in Japan long before Funimation ever got a hold of it. This bullshit idea that purists have that anime is some kind of precious art form really needs to be put to rest. Anime is just a Japanese cartoon.

They mean US Saturday morning cartoon, which were typically unsophisticated.

[TVfan721]

They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon. Huge, unforgivable mistake.

I am so fucking tired of this ridiculous argument and it's one that's been going on since the DBZ Uncensored days 20 years ago. ALL animes are already cartoons and DB was already a children's cartoon in Japan long before Funimation ever got a hold of it. This bullshit idea that purists have that anime is some kind of precious art form really needs to be put to rest. Anime is just a Japanese cartoon.

They mean US Saturday morning cartoon, which were typically unsophisticated.

That's another huge exaggeration. I can name several Saturday morning cartoons in North America that were very sophisticated and had a continuous storyline. Spider-Man: The Animated Series, Sonic The Hedgehog, Batman: The Animated Series, TMNT, just to name a few.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

They basically tried to turn DBZ into a cartoon. Huge, unforgivable mistake.

I am so fucking tired of this ridiculous argument and it's one that's been going on since the DBZ Uncensored days 20 years ago. ALL animes are already cartoons and DB was already a children's cartoon in Japan long before Funimation ever got a hold of it. This bullshit idea that purists have that anime is some kind of precious art form really needs to be put to rest. Anime is just a Japanese cartoon.

I'd add people need to stop giving the word cartoon such negative connotations. It's like any other art form there is good and bad.

[ABED]

I am so fucking tired of this ridiculous argument and it's one that's been going on since the DBZ Uncensored days 20 years ago. ALL animes are already cartoons and DB was already a children's cartoon in Japan long before Funimation ever got a hold of it. This bullshit idea that purists have that anime is some kind of precious art form really needs to be put to rest. Anime is just a Japanese cartoon.

They mean US Saturday morning cartoon, which were typically unsophisticated.

That's another huge exaggeration. I can name several Saturday morning cartoons in North America that were very sophisticated and had a continuous storyline. Spider-Man: The Animated Series, Sonic The Hedgehog, Batman: The Animated Series, TMNT, just to name a few.

It's not an exaggeration, not any more than your claim which takes a handful of cartoons that presumably you enjoy b/c they're sophisticated, and extrapolate that to say Saturday morning cartoons are often very sophisticated.

TMNT was NOT sophisticated. And I wrote typically. BTAS is singled out among children's cartoons because it is more sophisticated than most kids shows, especially of its era. Look at the cartoons of the 80s and they weren't sophisticated in the least. They were preachy, reset TV where little to nothing of consequence happened.

[Kokonoe]

Hmm... I don't quite understand. TMNT 2003 is quite "sophisticated", and the intro to that was a catchy rap tune but it still took it's plot serious and went on for quite a long time.

Rock the Dragon is done in a similar vain, using the Power Rangers (which also had a story) Green Ranger theme singer.

Cha-La Head-Cha-La is just about as cheesy as these songs, it's just people can't understand the language.

Diving through the sky on a roller coaster (coaster),
I fall into a paradise of panic!
The scenery turns upside-down and I cheer up (cheer up),
’Cause the mountains even look like butts!

So turning it into a "cartoon" doesn't seem all that different than what Toei did.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Dudes. He thinks you meant the 1987 TMNT. That's totes unsofisticated. Please specify for less confusion.

EDIT.See? Kokonoe did it!

[Soppa Saia People]

That's another huge exaggeration. I can name several Saturday morning cartoons in North America that were very sophisticated and had a continuous storyline. Spider-Man: The Animated Series, Sonic The Hedgehog, Batman: The Animated Series, TMNT, just to name a few.

not to sound like a ElitistTM but besides maybe batman i wouldn't really call any of those Sophisticated or anything. like, i suppose they were a bit more risky then most shows from that era or what you would expect from those kinda series, but there are much better modern examples of cartoons of having pretty mature themes, and more appeal to older audiences.

and let's be real, dragon ball was already like most cartoon shows over here, besides some of the dirty joeks, and some more "violence".