Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:36 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Pixar movies outside of Wall E for me do nothing to me as a film buff (Even the last act of Wall E ruins the movie for me). Other animated family films outside of Japan like Watership Down, Kubo and the Two Strings, Coraline, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, The Secret of NIHM, and a few other movies do a better job on capturing on storytelling and have more of an artistic vision to them than anything from Pixar if you ask me.
Coco and Inside Out are the only Pixar movies that honestly hold up for me without some degree of nostalgia.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:50 pm

How much of these other dubs have people heard?
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Oniman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:10 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Define "adult themes".
Toy Story 1: Being replaced by someone who is 100% undeniably better than you are.
Toy Story 2: Being abandoned by the one person you love the most and getting depressed.
Toy Story 3: Staring hellish certain death in the face and accepting it. Also the kindergarten is actually Auschwitz.
Those are hardly adult themes. Other kiddy stuff has stuff like that and does not make them any more mature than something like Bambi.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:40 pm

Oniman wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Define "adult themes".
Toy Story 1: Being replaced by someone who is 100% undeniably better than you are.
Toy Story 2: Being abandoned by the one person you love the most and getting depressed.
Toy Story 3: Staring hellish certain death in the face and accepting it. Also the kindergarten is actually Auschwitz.
Those are hardly adult themes. Other kiddy stuff has stuff like that and does not make them any more mature than something like Bambi.
Have you seen Bambi recently? It's about how life goes on beyond the death of others among many other themes. Any movie or series worth a kid's time has mature themes. Hell, just look at The Secret of NIMH. It's probably the most mature kids film ever made. One of the reasons why the dub for DB has always frustrated me because it always came off as condescending and belittling to its audience by attempting to remove such themes whilst also removing a lot of the mature humor. At that point you're just left with nothing.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:44 pm

We still haven't heard what people consider "adult themes" to mean.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:58 pm

ABED wrote:We still haven't heard what people consider "adult themes" to mean.
Oniman broke it down really well with that Toy Story example but it seems it was dismissed by everyone for some reason.

If I had to give my own take I'd say it's a theme that an adult can understand more than a child. That's not to say that a child couldn't comprehend it. Going back to the Secret of NIMH, I'm sure that any kid could understand why a mother would want to protect her kids, but I'm sure that they probably couldn't understand the value of independent preservation without the aid of stolen resources. NIMH is about both, it's rated G, and it's considered one of the greatest kids films ever made.

Dragon Ball is a ultimately a comedy/action series that does have mature themes but many of themes were lost in the localization process. That's why I choose to stick with the manga or watch the Japanese version of the anime so I don't have to worry about missing out on said themes.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:23 pm

Meh, the book was better from what I can remember of both. It didn't add the unnecessary supernatural elements. Also, the movie had a few too many characters that didn't get the room to breathe that the book afforded. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not sure what you would consider DB's mature themes.

I'll give some cursory thoughts on the issue. I would make a distinction between how the themes are explored and the themes themselves. There are plenty of themes, including death, that apply to kids and adults. There seems to be an assumption that darker subject matter isn't for children. The biggest difference is how the themes are explored in the story. Are they treated in a more sophisticated and mature manner?

Ultimately I agree that the dub talked down to its audience.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:40 pm

ABED wrote:Meh, the book was better from what I can remember of both. It didn't add the unnecessary supernatural elements. Also, the movie had a few too many characters that didn't get the room to breathe that the book afforded. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not sure what you would consider DB's mature themes.

I'll give some cursory thoughts on the issue. I would make a distinction between how the themes are explored and the themes themselves. There are plenty of themes, including death, that apply to kids and adults. There seems to be an assumption that darker subject matter isn't for children. The biggest difference is how the themes are explored in the story. Are they treated in a more sophisticated and mature manner?

Ultimately I agree that the dub talked down to its audience.
Dragon Ball is definitely light on mature themes but it has at least a few. Probably the most recent one seems to be not letting other people define you purely by your race. I think that's why Toriyama has significantly humanized the portrayal of Saiyan people as opposed to making them all inherently evil. I think that's why he dropped the idea that Goku was sent to earth to take it over and that the only reason he didn't is because he hit his head. I like what Toriyama did with Dragon Ball Minus where Goku was sent to earth to avoid getting killed by Freeza and Grandpa Gohan taught him to behave.

Then again I guess that theme goes back to Namek. Prior to that we were to believe that Piccolo Daimao was just from an evil race of demons.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:48 pm

Thing is, I don't like that. It overwrote one of the most interesting parts of the Saiyan arc and gave us a pretty hackneyed backstory.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:53 pm

ABED wrote:Thing is, I don't like that. It overwrote one of the most interesting parts of the Saiyan arc and gave us a pretty hackneyed backstory.
I think it added more depth to what was otherwise a race of one dimensional characters. I've never been a fan of entire races of people being classified as bad in fantasy/sci-fi. It's a trope that I find lazy and borderline offensive. I think over time Toriyama has matured as a writer and realized this.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:08 pm

But we already saw depth before the change. Goku's ethics shows that Saiyan's aren't inherently evil. Vegeta's change of heart definitely proves that. What new stories do is make it seem like Goku was some sort of chosen one instead of a castoff. Every single trope can be lazy (who is this supposed to be offensive to?) if poorly executed. There's no shortcut to depth.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:16 pm

ABED wrote:I'll give some cursory thoughts on the issue. I would make a distinction between how the themes are explored and the themes themselves. There are plenty of themes, including death, that apply to kids and adults. There seems to be an assumption that darker subject matter isn't for children. The biggest difference is how the themes are explored in the story. Are they treated in a more sophisticated and mature manner?
Agreed, that's a nice wrinkle to add to the subject.

Another element is that that the maturity of themes might not be defined by how 'dark' something is, but what group of people it's most relevant to and who it has the deepest impact upon. Fairy tales were considered children's stories even though they could sometimes be gruesome, maybe in part because they taught children about the darker side of life - about things such as evil people that enjoy hurting others, and about death. Adults don't have to be taught about concepts like that, the existence of those things is old hat. A story about someone trying and failing to find work amidst an economic recession, on the other hand, would mean absolutely nothing to a 5 year old, and would thus count as a 'mature theme' despite centering around something milder than the kidnappings and murders prevalent in fairy tales.

Quasi-related, but that also might be where some of the confusion comes from regarding Dragon Ball being considered a "children's" series, and why Western audiences might take offense when they hear that claim made for the first time. In the States, the label tends to be reserved for series that anyone would be hard-pressed to enjoy beyond a certain age. Dora the Explorer, Sesame Street, and Blue's Clues are all series that few people beyond kindergarten would find much value in. Japan has some toddler-exclusive series of that nature, but anime/manga are also considered to be for kids simply if they would appeal to children the most, despite having universal appeal. Would I enjoy Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z if I watched through the series again (something I haven't done since 2008 and 2009)? Absolutely, I love Dragon Ball. No matter how old I get I'll always think it's a good show. But would I enjoy it as much as if I'd had the entire series subtitled when I was 10? No, childhood is definitely where I would have been the most enamored with the series. Inversely, I could have read an 'adult' book when I was 9 or 10 and wrung some enjoyment out of it, but a lot of things would have flown over my head or been unrelatable to me, and I'd have enjoyed them more as an adult.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm

ABED wrote:But we already saw depth before the change. Goku's ethics shows that Saiyan's aren't inherently evil. Vegeta's change of heart definitely proves that. What new stories do is make it seem like Goku was some sort of chosen one instead of a castoff. Every single trope can be lazy (who is this supposed to be offensive to?) if poorly executed. There's no shortcut to depth.
Your point about Vegeta is basically my point. They had to further demonstrate that Saiyans weren't inherently evil because Vegeta grew so popular that Toriyama had to make him a recurring character. Through that the Saiyan people were given more depth and that idea was expanded upon in DB Minus and the new Broly movie.

As for the trope I mentioned before being mildly offensive, it's hard to excuse an entire race of people being evil just because of where they're from or what they look like. It's a very narrow assessment that in the worst case scenario regarding fiction, is just boring.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:19 pm

They aren't evil because of where they are from or what they look like. They are evil because they are barbarians that love fighting. And did you not read my point about Goku proving they aren't inherently evil. They choose to do evil.

You know what's also boring? Clichés. Goku being sent to another planet to save his life is a very clichéd story. The change in backstory doesn't make them deeper.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:25 pm

ABED wrote:They aren't evil because of where they are from or what they look like. They are evil because they are barbarians that love fighting. And did you not read my point about Goku proving they aren't inherently evil. They choose to do evil.

You know what's also boring? Clichés. Goku being sent to another planet to save his life is a very clichéd story. The change in backstory doesn't make them deeper.
I did read your point. The problem with said point is that originally they dismissed it as him forgetting his evil tendencies because he was hit on the head. If you ask me that's really boring and significantly less interesting than him growing into his own based on his environment and upbringing. And I never said Saiyan people were evil because of what they looked like. That was a general example of the trope. When they were introduced they were portrayed as evil until Vegeta became a recurring character.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:29 pm

Gligarman wrote:
ABED wrote:They aren't evil because of where they are from or what they look like. They are evil because they are barbarians that love fighting. And did you not read my point about Goku proving they aren't inherently evil. They choose to do evil.

You know what's also boring? Clichés. Goku being sent to another planet to save his life is a very clichéd story. The change in backstory doesn't make them deeper.
I did read your point. The problem with said point is that originally they dismissed it as him forgetting his evil tendencies because he was hit on the head. If you ask me that's really boring and significantly less interesting than him growing into his own based on his environment and upbringing. And I never said Saiyan people were evil because of what they looked like. That was a general example of the trope. When they were introduced they were portrayed as evil until Vegeta became a recurring character.
I have to concur. The fact that Goku had to bump his head to become “a good boy” at least suggest that Saiyajin behavior is,by nature, malicious.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:32 pm

Gligarman wrote:
ABED wrote:They aren't evil because of where they are from or what they look like. They are evil because they are barbarians that love fighting. And did you not read my point about Goku proving they aren't inherently evil. They choose to do evil.

You know what's also boring? Clichés. Goku being sent to another planet to save his life is a very clichéd story. The change in backstory doesn't make them deeper.
I did read your point. The problem with said point is that originally they dismissed it as him forgetting his evil tendencies because he was hit on the head. If you ask me that's really boring and significantly less interesting than him growing into his own based on his environment and upbringing. And I never said Saiyan people were evil because of what they looked like. That was a general example of the trope. When they were introduced they were portrayed as evil until Vegeta became a recurring character.
Goku is also a Saiyan and he was a baby, it wasn't "evil tendencies". I always took it as more conditioning and natural aggression. If it was their nature, why would a bump on the head change anything?

The cliché of "he was sent away to save his life" is played out as well. That version is far less interesting than the theme of elites vs. lower class that played out in the Saiyan arc.
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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:37 pm

ABED wrote:[

The cliché of "he was sent away to save his life" is played out as well.
Since the old testament at least :D

That version is far less interesting than the theme of elites vs. lower class that played out in the Saiyan arc.
I do like that Goku was sent to earth because the Saiyajin considered him a nobody

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:39 pm

ABED wrote:Goku is also a Saiyan and he was a baby, it wasn't "evil tendencies". I always took it as more conditioning and natural aggression. If it was their nature, why would a bump on the head change anything?

The cliché of "he was sent away to save his life" is played out as well. That version is far less interesting than the theme of elites vs. lower class that played out in the Saiyan arc.
I couldn't agree more with the fact that a bump on the head wouldn't make a difference. That's why I'm glad it was disregarded. The elite vs. lower class theme can still work even with the current story.

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Re: Why do English-speaking fans belittle the non-FUNimation dubs?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:41 pm

There is truth to what Gligarman wrote, but both scenarios are as dependent on execution as anything else. My biggest issue is the retcon.
Since the old testament at least
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