World Building

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World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:45 pm

This thread stems from a conversation I was having in "non-thread topics". I've created a thread like this before, but this one is more specific. Do you like DB's world building? Why or why not? Please give examples.
SaiyanGod117 wrote:
ABED wrote:There are whole new universes, there are more gods, there's angels, god ki. All this stuff has happened in Super. How is Super lacking in world building?
Almost six years later they have done practically absolutely nothing with, yes, what amazing worldbuilding and lore expansion.
It's a significant example, and one many people point to as the premiere example of great fantasy world building.
I don't think that's fair, that was one written by one author and in a different period. Just as there're different people, there's different style of writing too, everyone has something unique to them. Not everyone is going tackle worldbuilding in the same way Tolkien did; likwewise, some writers may not even like him.
I think we should make this its own thread.
Go head.
What exactly are you looking for then? Super gave you all those things but apparently it's terrible world building because they've done nothing with it. What do you want from it? Your complaints are very vague.

I don't see what the time period has to do with this issue.
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:59 pm

Battle of Gods introduced us to the concept of 12 universes, but nothing has been done with it aside from a poorly written tournament. We have gotten little information on either Beerus, Whis, or the other Gods of Destruction during Super’s tenor, and the world building we did get were recycled Z story arcs. Ultimately, there has been little utilization of what BOG has given. So, no, Super hasn't really shown anything, and has fleshed out little.
I don't see what the time period has to do with this issue.
An author can take inspiration from many different things, and the world around them can effect how they will tell a story. For instance, Miyazaki's time as a child during WW2 deeply impacted the way he told stories. Moreover, mediums evolve as people build off or innovate of what came before, so an author may not take the same approach of telling a story such as Tolkien did.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:22 pm

Battle of Gods introduced us to the concept of 12 universes, but nothing has been done with it aside from a poorly written tournament.
All it is is new locations to fight, but that's mere variations on a theme. And when you say we got little information, that sounds like mere exposition, not character. Are you looking for backstory? What are you looking for? It took over 400 episodes to get to the idea of 12 universes. How long do you want the story to go on as it explores those universes?
An author can take inspiration from many different things, and the world around them can effect how they will tell a story. For instance, Miyazaki's time as a child during WW2 deeply impacted the way he told stories. Moreover, mediums evolve as people build off or innovate of what came before, so an author may not take the same approach of telling a story such as Tolkien did.
The fundamentals don't really change, and Tolkien's writings aren't that old. I would hope people wouldn't take his approach to storytelling. Take what worked and leave what didn't. That's what George RR Martin did. He has an expansive detailed world, but 1) his plots are complex, and 2) he doesn't lose sight that it's about character and story. World building comes out of storytelling, not the other way around. Your Miyazaki example has nothing to do with world building. Every good writer uses their life experiences to inform their stories. Jonathan Nolan used his experiences on a farm growing up as a story point for Westworld.

The only bit of world building I would like is to know what Kami's duties are. What purpose does he serve? Beerus' purpose is quite clear, but Kami/Dende's isn't.
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:30 pm

ABED wrote:All it is is new locations to fight, but that's mere variations on a theme. And when you say we got little information, that sounds like mere exposition, not character. Are you looking for backstory? What are you looking for? It took over 400 episodes to get to the idea of 12 universes. How long do you want the story to go on as it explores those universes?
I already told what I wanted in the other thread, you can piece together all I’ve written and see what I’m looking for even further.

The fundamentals don't really change, and Tolkien's writings aren't that old. I would hope people wouldn't take his approach to storytelling. Take what worked and leave what didn't. That's what George RR Martin did. He has an expansive detailed world, but 1) his plots are complex, and 2) he doesn't lose sight that it's about character and story.
Regardless, you can’t equate one book series to a whole category.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:33 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
ABED wrote:All it is is new locations to fight, but that's mere variations on a theme. And when you say we got little information, that sounds like mere exposition, not character. Are you looking for backstory? What are you looking for? It took over 400 episodes to get to the idea of 12 universes. How long do you want the story to go on as it explores those universes?
I already told what I wanted in the other thread, you can piece together all I’ve written and see what I’m looking for even further.

The fundamentals don't really change, and Tolkien's writings aren't that old. I would hope people wouldn't take his approach to storytelling. Take what worked and leave what didn't. That's what George RR Martin did. He has an expansive detailed world, but 1) his plots are complex, and 2) he doesn't lose sight that it's about character and story.
Regardless, you can’t equate one book series to a whole category.
I really can't other than exploring those 12 universes, but like I wrote, they're just new locations. What do you want this to lead to? You wrote "new routes for the story to go" but that's vague. Is the problem the lack of world building or the bad storytelling?

When people use it as a premiere example, then I can venture a guess as to what people are looking for. More often than not, they want these expansive and incredibly detailed universes. And what "category" are you talking about?
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:50 pm

ABED wrote: I really can't other than exploring those 12 universes, but like I wrote, they're just new locations. What do you want this to lead to? You wrote "new routes for the story to go" but that's vague.
They can’t be that vague to where you can’t even get a slim idea of what I’m taking about. Anyways, your reasons are vague too nor did even explain why DBS’s worldbuilding is good, so I’m completely lost on what you’re talking about. And I thought you made this thread with the intention of getting other people thoughts, not to continue debating with me.
When people use it as a premiere example, then I can venture a guess as to what people are looking for. More often than not, they want these expansive and incredibly detailed universes. And what "category" are you talking about?
That still doesn’t mean you can generalize one book off an entire aspect of writing.

Category= Worldbuilding.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm

I didn't say DBS's world building was good. I'm saying that there's plenty and it doesn't matter. What matters is story. Whatever story flaws there are aren't due to world building.
They can’t be that vague to where you can’t even get a slim idea of what I’m taking about.
It is vague. Do you want them to explore those 12 universes? Why? It took 400 episodes to explore one universe. How long do you want it to go? What constitutes effectively exploring those universes? I don't understand how any of this would help DB go forward and not feel like it's treading water.

I'm all for debating and discussing with others, but thus far, you're the only one who's posted anything.
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:09 pm

ABED wrote:I didn't say DBS's world building was good. I'm saying that there's plenty and it doesn't matter. What matters is story. Whatever story flaws there are aren't due to world building.
Ok, and you haven’t explained that at this point just DM me.
It is vague. Do you want them to explore those 12 universes? Why? It took 400 episodes to explore one universe. How long do you want it to go? What constitutes effectively exploring those universes?
I already told you from the other thread.
To put it simply new locations, characters, power systems, and unique concepts. So, overall what I said above, provide new routes for the stories and characters to go, while also applying concepts in exciting ways. As well as, of course providing a necessary context for the story and characters.
Why do you think I said to put it simply, so I can give you a general gist of what I want without going to much in depth.
I'To put it simply new locations, characters, power systems, and unique concepts. So, overall what I said above, provide new routes for the stories and characters to go, while also applying concepts in exciting ways. As well as, of course providing a necessary context for the story and characters.
you're the only one who's posted anything.
You quoted my post in the OP and then put “What do you want from it? Your complaints are very vague.” same thing that you’re doing here. It’s looks you’re directly responding to me; regardless, you should restart the thread put the OP in your words or bump the old one.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:16 pm

Why DM you? This is all on topic.

The whole point of this thread is to go in depth. I said that from the jump. The reason I don't bump the previous thread is because that would be necro-posting, and that thread asked a different question.

I'm directly responding to you to get the discussion started. Unfortunately I don't know how many will actually chime in, but anyone is welcome to give their 2 cents.
To put it simply new locations, characters, power systems, and unique concepts. So, overall what I said above, provide new routes for the stories and characters to go, while also applying concepts in exciting ways. As well as, of course providing a necessary context for the story and characters.
It's all very vague and I don't see how DB is lacking in any of this.
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:50 pm

ABED wrote:Why DM you? This is all on topic.
Because if you were going to make this thread with the intentions of debating me, you might as well just DM me.
The whole point of this thread is to go in depth. I said that from the jump.
Ok, then do that don’t quote me you should have just stayed in that thread if you wanted to debate.

I
'm directly responding to you to get the discussion started. Unfortunately I don't know how many will actually chime in, but anyone is welcome to give their 2 cents.
The discussion was started when this thread was made.
This isn't helpful. It's all very vague and I don't see how DB is lacking in any of this.
Alright to put it simply again, exploration in the uses of God Ki in ways other than transformations and power-ups-I.e., techniques, enhances biologically, and how different in comparison to mortal Ki. Likewise, with the advent of God Ki, the writers could now have an opportunity to flesh out Ki even more into principles or disciplines and push it beyond essentially strength enhancement and Ki blast.
new locations,
This should be easy to understand if you have watched the show. As they haven’t gone anywhere beyond a tournament ring or Earth. With the availability of the twelve universes, there’re numerous places the protagonist can go, or writers can conjure up, yet they haven’t.
characters,
They have shown nothing but mostly cannon fodder or more Saiyans, other than Hit and maybe Zamasu, Super has failed to bring anything new or interesting to the forefront. The reveal of the twelve 12 Gods of Destruction and Angels don’t count, ever since the 2013 release of Battle of the Gods we knew they would be revealed sooner or later; moreover, we know almost nothing about them.
unique concepts.
Super has no unique concepts, can’t think of one, the show is complete fanservice even the new movie was a redone Broly.
So, overall what I said above, provide new routes for the stories and characters to go, while also applying concepts in exciting ways.
Super is terribly written, inconsistencies every episode, statements lose validity in minutes, inconsistent character writing, character regression, poor conveyance of tone, etc.

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Re: World Building

Post by KBABZ » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:06 pm

I personally found the world-building to be in greatest effect with the Red Ribbon Arc, as the simple nature of travelling the world and meeting new people before the fighting started did a lot to help broaden the viewpoint. Other areas include Imperfect Cell's introduction and stealth taking us to several locations, and the Orange Star High School stuff before we get diverted to Buu in the Tournament. I found the general fleshing out and exploration of new places to be at its most minimal during the Namek, Cell and Buu arcs when everyone is wrapped up with fighting the main villain for Chapters upon Chapters at a time. Namek in particular is somewhat infamous for being introduced as a consequence-free battlezone with enough cliffs and water to make things interesting in a fight, but with the planet almost completely abandoned Batman V Superman style. Obviously we shouldn't take a break from fighting the villains to go in-depth on life in Jingle Village, but when fighting the main villain didn't take 50 Chapters to defeat, there was more of it effect I felt.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:40 pm

The RRA arc is a good example as it came out of character. Goku's world was expanding and so was the world of DB. DB's world is overly simple. There isn't much thought put into things like societal structures. Hierarchies are kept VERY simple. For instance, the Earth government has a king. That's it, really. Namek society has a handful of people, it's agrarian, there are two types of Namekians, its split up into small villages, and they are all children of The Grand Elder. Toriyama likes to keep things simple and I don't really care. It works fine. As long as the characters are interesting, how Freeza's empire operates given its sheer size doesn't interest me.
Because if you were going to make this thread with the intentions of debating me, you might as well just DM me.
That wasn't the intention. It's part of it, but I also see a lot of talk about lore and world building (or lack thereof) and I want to know what people are looking for this deep into the story. The reason I made this its own thing is because the previous thread was called "non-thread worthy discussions". This is a topic that can carry its own thread.
Alright to put it simply again, exploration in the uses of God Ki in ways other than transformations and power-ups-I.e., techniques, enhances biologically, and how different in comparison to mortal Ki. Likewise, with the advent of God Ki, the writers could now have an opportunity to flesh out Ki even more into principles or disciplines and push it beyond essentially strength enhancement and Ki blast.
It is primarily a power up, but God ki did act as something of a nutrient to Goku. His base form was much stronger even after his SSJ God form went away. And to the best of my knowledge, ki as a concept is culturally understood in Asian countries like Japan and China, so there would probably be no need on the part of the writers to expand on what it does and what it is. And I believe they did explain what Ki is when Gohan teaches Videl how to fly. When you say they could push it beyond strength enhancement and ki blasts (you're forgetting about flight), give me an example of something else it could do.
This should be easy to understand if you have watched the show. As they haven’t gone anywhere beyond a tournament ring or Earth. With the availability of the twelve universes, there’re numerous places the protagonist can go, or writers can conjure up, yet they haven’t.
As I said, they would just be new places and variations on a theme. Visually they could be somewhat more interesting, but how much more importance could they have to the story beyond another setting for the story?

You bring up characters and then suggest the examples of new characters (how is that world building?) don't count for odd reasons. Is this a failure of story and characterization or of worldbuilding? What are you looking for with the gods - backstory? How is that more important than characterization?
Super has no unique concepts, can’t think of one, the show is complete fanservice even the new movie was a redone Broly.
God Ki, universes, gods of destruction, multiverse, the Omni King. You may not like the execution, but those things are there.
Super is terribly written, inconsistencies every episode, statements lose validity in minutes, inconsistent character writing, character regression, poor conveyance of tone, etc.
All probably true, but also far more important than world-building. Honestly, I think the problems you attribute to Super's world-building are the result of poor execution (not a lack of quantity) and the sheer size of DB's story. There's so much well trodden ground, most of what comes after feels like mere variations on a theme. For instance, we've seen tournaments before, so tournaments with participants coming from different universes doesn't feel groundbreaking. In GT, searching for the DB's over a galaxy instead of just one planet is not fundamentally different.
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Re: World Building

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:49 pm

ABED wrote:
That wasn't the intention. It's part of it, but I also see a lot of talk about lore and world building (or lack thereof) and I want to know what people are looking for this deep into the story. The reason I made this its own thing is because the previous thread was called "non-thread worthy discussions". This is a topic that can carry its own thread.
Because lore makes a story interesting.
It is primarily a power up, but God ki did act as something of a nutrient to Goku. His base form was much stronger even after his SSJ God form went away. And to the best of my knowledge, ki as a concept is culturally understood in Asian countries like Japan and China, so there would probably be no need on the part of the writers to expand on what it does and what it is. And I believe they did explain what Ki is when Gohan teaches Videl how to fly. When you say they could push it beyond strength enhancement and ki blasts (you're forgetting about flight), give me an example of something else it could do.
For Ki, I'm just spitballing ideas that pertain to fighting there could be more uses for it outside of battle that influences the story. In other series such as Hunter x Hunter Nen (which is a Ki like energy) can be used to reinforce objects, perform exorcisms, reduce aging, and interacts with the world in unique ways. Either way, regular Ki and God Ki are both extremely simple to a fault, especially in regards to God Ki. It doesn't have to be as fleshed out as Togashi's Nen system, but some attention to detail would help bring out its applicability beyond strength enhancement, Ki blast, and training montages. In My Hero Academia, Quirks which are superhuman abilities that people are born with are incorporated into everyday society. Those are some examples, I'm not a writer nor am I too invested in this subject to actually brainstorm or find some other examples. I can just recognize Ki as a concept is not being fully utilized and has tons of potential; likewise, DB may have started a lot of tropes or cliches, but it hasn't gone beyond that initial stage. Whereas, other series have taken those tropes or ideas have either expanded upon them or subverted them.
As I said, they would just be new places and variations on a theme. Visually they could be somewhat more interesting, but how much more importance could they have to the story beyond another setting for the story?
Ok, new locations bring new characters, new characters could bring new story opportunities, new story opportunities could bring new abilities, new abilities could bring more creativity in fights. As you see, it's a domino effect, and the DB universe is multiversal in scope the fact that most of the story is still tied to one small location is laughable.
You bring up characters and then suggest the examples of new characters (how is that world building?) don't count for odd reasons. Is this a failure of story and characterization or of worldbuilding? What are you looking for with the gods - backstory? How is that more important than characterization?
Gods of Destruction are characters but also worldbuilding. Ultra Instinct is an ability but also worldbuilding, what I'm looking for is a well-written story and for these concepts to applied in innovative or useful ways. If the story can't do that, then it's a failure in worldbuilding, story, and characterization.
God Ki, universes, gods of destruction, multiverse, the Omni King. You may not like the execution, but those things are there.
Is that a joke? God Ki isn't unique it's the same as regular Ki; universes aren't unique, the multiverse isn't unique, none of those concepts are the least bit unique. Having Gods acting as judge, jury, and executioner as well as multiverses predate DB by a significant amount of time; maybe they were unusual to DB when they introduced them six years ago, except for the Omni King. However, these concepts have been incorporated into DB with baseline effort at best. Aside from the awareness that these concepts are now in DB, they have done little to change or affect the characters or story differently or interestingly. All we've seen has either happened in a previous arc in DB or movie that was presented or — written in a much better way.
All probably true, but also far more important than world-building. Honestly, I think the problems you attribute to Super's world-building are the result of poor execution (not a lack of quantity) and the sheer size of DB's story. There's so much well trodden ground, most of what comes after feels like mere variations on a theme. For instance, we've seen tournaments before, so tournaments with participants coming from different universes doesn't feel groundbreaking. In GT, searching for the DB's over a galaxy instead of just one planet is not fundamentally different.
No not even close that is your opinion, as many professional writers believe worldbuilding is essential to a story, and hold it to high esteem. And their position carries a lot more weight than whatever criticisms you have to say against it, no offense. But it also doesn't help that you're judging future or prior works on one book series, so mostly a whole genre of titles on example.

And as I've said before, there're applications of worldbuilding from in-universe and out of universe perspective. So, Goku learning and using Kaiōken from a martial arts teacher he meets in the other world would be an application from an in-universe perspective. In the same manner, Trunks coming from the past to seek help and warn the Z-fighters about their impending deaths to set up a much darker story tone or show a visual motif is an out of universe one. Some stories use those applications better than others. Also, regardless of what DB has previously done nothing about Super was groundbreaking. Tournaments irrespective of where it's participants came from is not groundbreaking.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:20 am

I think the message might be getting lost, I'm not against world-building, I'm against putting the cart before the horse. Good world-building is the result of good storytelling, not the cause. Whatever Super's failings may be, they are the result of poor execution, not lack of new lore. Lore and world-building are tool of telling a story. No amount of lore or intricately detailed world-building will matter if the audience doesn't care about the world being built.
as many professional writers believe worldbuilding is essential to a story
For example?
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Re: World Building

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:13 am

ABED wrote:I think the message might be getting lost, I'm not against world-building, I'm against putting the cart before the horse. Good world-building is the result of good storytelling, not the cause. Whatever Super's failings may be, they are the result of poor execution, not lack of new lore. Lore and world-building are tool of telling a story. No amount of lore or intricately detailed world-building will matter if the audience doesn't care about the world being built.
I do agree here. One of the reasons why it worked so well with the Red Ribbon Arc (and to a lesser extend the original arc) is because the Dragon Balls were located in very disparate and varied locations, and the plot itself would often take scenic detours as well (the Jetsons West City, the Scandinavian RRA HQ and the arabic Baba's palace, for example). World-building isn't the goal, but you get a lot of it as Goku explores new lands.

And I daresay, even GT got in on this to some extent. We get to see places like Imecka, that village where Trunks has to dress like a girl, the planet of Giants, and the ruined planet where Rilldo is found, which just by appearing do a lot to flesh out just what state the galaxy is in exactly outside of Earth. I just wish we would have gotten a bit more of the vacuum left behind by the defeat of Frieza, that would have been neat.

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Re: World Building

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:27 am

Agreed. Nature abhors a vacuum and while I think the idea of what happened to Freeza's empire after his death is interesting, no one from his army is as strong as him, so they wouldn't pose a danger to our heroes. Given that, it's not something I would be eager to explore in much depth.
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Re: World Building

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:47 am

ABED wrote:Agreed. Nature abhors a vacuum and while I think the idea of what happened to Freeza's empire after his death is interesting, no one from his army is as strong as him, so they wouldn't pose a danger to our heroes. Given that, it's not something I would be eager to explore in much depth.
Well yeah, it would be discussed and shown and the Frieza Force are now the faintest shadow of their former greatness and I don't think it'd directly factor into the plot, but considering they're back in the setting where Frieza was most relevant (space!) a nod would have been nice.

Still, we got some of that with RoF: the failing empire is precisely the reason why Frieza was wished back in the first place, so we were able to find out that way. We even get to see a bit of the day-to-day of the Frieza Force in Broli with the scenes on board Frieza's flagship, which was really cool to see. I think a scene that's directly "here's a tour of West City and all its machinations" would be clunky, but as shown in the manga and anime, just the adventures the characters get up to within a new setting can tell us a lot. For example, we see how futuristic (and 80s) West City is, that it has a dangerous underbelly, and it has a MASSIVE amusement park in it. And by contrasting it with all the other settings we know that the "Cardinal" cities are very unique and striking compared to the more rural locations on Earth.

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Re: World Building

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 pm

ABED wrote:Do you like DB's world building? Why or why not? Please give examples.
I like it a lot though I have one nitpick and it is during the Cyborg/Android Cell Arc. Let me explain first we are introduce to Goku who meet Bulma and goes on an adventure to find the Dragon Ball they travel around the world and fight lower battle in regard to the big Universe. Then Goku after his first Budokai train and start to meet more formidable foe and all of that escalate to the point where he battle some fight that can level up continent (Piccolo Daimao and Ma Junior Arc).

Things kick off with Raditz now the playground expand and we reach space with the Saiya-jin Arc and the consequence of this Arc the Namek/Frieza Arc. So everything build up to the point where you think that after Frieza Goku & Co will battle other galactical threat but nope we go back to earth where everything is settled on earth. I understand why the move but I don't like it, I understand that Toriyama wanted to tell us that Earth can still harbour some peri to our heroes with the likes of Gero and his evil genius but I wanted to see more of space with Dragon Ball Super and also the Majin Buu arc we got galactical threat like Zamasu, Moro, Majin Buu and Dabra etc etc

I think there were rooms for novelty instead of "rehashing" stuff from the past with the Cyborg/Android/Cell Arc being a Red Ribbon arc part.2.

There were I think room to explore either Vegeta side quest to find Goku who he would meet threat to his level or explore Yardrat planet and see if the planet didn't harbour threat for its people and Goku there to solve them.
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

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KBABZ
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Re: World Building

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:51 pm

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:I think there were rooms for novelty instead of "rehashing" stuff from the past with the Cyborg/Android/Cell Arc being a Red Ribbon arc part.2.
I disagree with this idea personally. While the Cell Arc is definitely linked to the RRA arc via its lore, the actual arc itself has very little in common with it. It isn't a world tour adventure where you battle a private army, you're fighting two, sometimes three Androids. While there is a little bit of globe-trotting, the Dragon Balls aren't featured at all, nor do we really meet any new side characters along the way.

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Re: World Building

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:29 am

Dragon Ball's world building is satisfactory enough to compliment the main story with being too much of a distraction. That is to say that Dragon Ball didn't become unfocused and spent more time and effort on creating pointless fluff and lore than it did building characters and moving the story forward.

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