Was adding Power Levels a mistake?

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:00 pm

They’re pretty arbitrary and pointless. I mean do we really need numbers to gather x character is a lot stronger than Y character. Seeing someone kick another character’s ass said enough. Even Toriyama seemes to have lost interest in them as a concept by the Namek saga. And even then he almost seemed like he was making fun of the concept with how scouters became utterly useless when characters could hide their chi but no fans still took power level super seriously. To the point listing power level what PL do you think X character was at this point in the story seemed to just dominate Dragon Ball discussions especially in the American fandom.

TL:DR - Power levels=cancer

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Battle Powers/Power Levels served a very specific story purpose to the Saiya-jin and Namek/Freeza arcs: to give the bad guys in those arcs, who otherwise VASTLY overpower our heroes, a unique and specific weakness for the heroes to exploit. Nearly every single time Battle Powers come up in those arcs, its to show that the Saiya-jin and the rest of Freeza and his army are over-reliant on them to gauge their opponent's skill (because they don't understand the mystical aspects of Ki the way that our martial artist heroes from Earth do and have more of a purely brute-force grasping of it), and this reliance on those numbers is what routinely gets them eventually beaten/killed.

Once Freeza's army cease to be main villains in the series (at least in its original pre-revival run), that's the exact moment that Battle Powers stop being relevant: they've served their purpose as a plot device.

Prior to FUNimation's English dub, Battle Powers were never that big of a focus among Dragon Ball fandom. Fan/online discussions centering on them were INCREDIBLY rare during the series' original Japanese run. It wasn't until the English dub first aired that fandom focus and discussions surrounding Power Levels truly began to have a stranglehold on English Dragon Ball discussions: this was primarily because the dub had not only started with Raditz/the Saiya-jin arc, but also because it had initially ended partway through the Namek/Freeza arc and looped those episodes (Raditz through Ginyu) ENDLESSLY for several years prior to finally moving ahead with the rest of Z (and then original DB finally).

By taking what happened to be the main bulk of episodes where Battle Powers were at their most plot-relevant and not only starting with them, but looping them over and over endlessly for the first several years of the series' North American run, that had thoroughly hammered into the English language fanbase that these numbers were a CENTRAL key concept to the whole entire series. Suddenly Power Level lists became an ubiquitous feature in virtually every single Dragon Ball fan site online, and online debates about them quickly began to dominate a vast, sizable chunk of fandom discourse.

FUNimation further made it even worse when they themselves picked up on this fandom phenomenon, and in later post-Freeza arc episodes continued to add in vague references to Power Levels where none originally existed in the original Japanese version: they did this throughout the Cell and Boo arcs, throughout GT, and even a few times in Super I've noticed.

The point is, the Power Level fixation is largely a phenomenon centered on the English language fanbase and the dysfunctional manner in which FUNimation had handled the series. It was never really a thing prior to the original airings of the dub: even the bits of older Japanese media (such as the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks) that made mention of them didn't really have much of an impact on the fanbase at the time. Guidebooks, in a very general geek-cultural sense, are natural homes for dorky, in-universe minutia like Battle Powers: no one really took their inclusion in the Daizenshuu originally as anything more than dorky guidebooks being dorkily thorough in their in-series trivia.

I think it is both impossible as well as very unfair to place some sort of retroactive blame on Toriyama for introducing them as a simple, throwaway plot device for two story arcs purely on the basis that they would later on WELL long after the series had ended its original Japanese run take on a whole new life of their own via a screwed up foreign language adaptation and its screwed up means of introducing the series to a new, foreign audience. That type of freakishly random turn of events is something that OF COURSE he would have ZERO means of predicting or foreseeing in advance. He's not omniscient or clairvoyant.

I think that getting so upset/frustrated at the retroactive impact that Power Levels have inadvertently and unintentionally had on the English fanbase in later years that one elects to place retroactive "blame" or scorn on Toriyama for ever having introduced BPs at all as a simple story device for a couple of arcs is lending dumb, post-original run fandom nonsense WAY too much weight and power over what the original story itself is and has always been when taken in outside of and completely divorced from FUNimation and its ridiculous fanbase and "reversioning" and whatnot.

Or to put it another way: Battle Powers were a relatively minor plot element in the series from around 1989 up to 1991 or thereabouts. They didn't begin to "take over" English language fandom discourse until roughly around 1997 or so, after the dub had started to build up its own fanbase who were first introduced to DB via Raditz and the Saban/Ocean-era "Raditz through Ginyu" loop of death that went on for almost the first 3 years or so of the dub's original North American run. Prior to 1997, almost NOBODY within Dragon Ball fandom, anywhere, had placed very much stock or emphasis in Battle Powers as any kind of major or noteworthy element of the series as a whole: because it simply never was one. All it ever was was a small chink in the Freeza army's armor for the good guys to exploit in their fights with them.

If anything deserves true blame or derision for turning Power Levels into the cancerous, Dragon Ball discourse-decaying, corrosive element that they've devolved into and have represented for the past 20 years and change of English fandom now, then once more - like with so many other things - its FUNimation and its incompetent, nonsensical business and creative handling of the series since their earliest beginnings with the franchise.

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:33 pm

Good point. I think my annoyance with them is how the American Ball Z fandom has taken the whole concept way out of proportion because in 100 percent fairness to Mr. Toriyama he did seem to be making a statement that trying to attach numbers to a battle power is ridiculous when characters can manipulate their chi.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:47 pm

I hadn't even thought of the effect replaying the first two arcs had on my understanding of the series. Great point.

Kunzait_83 wrote:in later post-Freeza arc episodes continued to add in vague references to Power Levels where none originally existed in the original Japanese version: they did this throughout the Cell and Boo arcs, throughout GT, and even a few times in Super I've noticed.

To make matters worse, they retroactively added it to the original DB. In the Piccolo Daimao arc, right before he's about to leave Karin's to fight Daimao, the dub has him say something about feeling the level of power he has. The idea is he figures out how to sense battle powers and coins the term in that moment. Sadly I can't remember the exact line.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:07 pm

ABED wrote:To make matters worse, they retroactively added it to the original DB. In the Piccolo Daimao arc, right before he's about to leave Karin's to fight Daimao, the dub has him say something about feeling the level of power he has. The idea is he figures out how to sense battle powers and coins the term in that moment. Sadly I can't remember the exact line.

I vaguely remember that. Man, talk about mangling the storyline. Sensing ki is something he's only supposed to learn from his training with Kami and Mr. Popo, but instead he learns how to do so in the dub shortly before that because... just because.

Personally? I like Power Levels to the extent that they exist within the series, as someone who's always kind of enjoyed numbers for their own sake. I'm not fascinated with them to the point where I care about participating in (or even reading) Power Level discussions, but I thought they were a fun addition during their relatively brief tenure in the series. Numbers have a nice sort of aesthetic to them that's hard for me to describe. In Dragon Quest games I enjoy starting off as a little Level 1 baby that only needs 10 or 15 experience to level up, and ending the adventure in the 40s with intimidatingly large experience requirements of around 100,000. There's a similar sort of artistry to me in the escalating Power Level numbers of the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:21 pm

I like the idea and measurement makes things very concrete. For instance, if the farmer is inidicative of an average adult human, that gives the audience a clue as to how much more powerful the characters are.

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:27 pm

ABED wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:in later post-Freeza arc episodes continued to add in vague references to Power Levels where none originally existed in the original Japanese version: they did this throughout the Cell and Boo arcs, throughout GT, and even a few times in Super I've noticed.
To make matters worse, they retroactively added it to the original DB. In the Piccolo Daimao arc, right before he's about to leave Karin's to fight Daimao, the dub has him say something about feeling the level of power he has. The idea is he figures out how to sense battle powers and coins the term in that moment. Sadly I can't remember the exact line.

Time for my love of the FUNi DB dub to come to the rescue!

Spoiler:

So yeah, the Power Level phrase does seem to be thrown in there, BUT at the same time Goku, in all three English translations of the scene, can still sense an evil power and can identify who it is (and the FUNi script doesn't shy away from the rather spiritual feeling of the scene, which is surprising). This contradicts later scenes like Trunks appearing where you can't get someone's ID if you haven't got a face to put to it yet, but you could handwave it by saying that it's Goku being able to tap into the observation effect of the lookout, which will be introduced quite soon anyways. It's also worth noting that the scene where Goku gets taught about sensing Ki is part of his extended training with Mr. Popo that is only part of the Heavenly Training Arc, which means it's filler.

As for my opinion on Power Levels, they serve a couple of other, semi-important tasks when it comes to Scouters. First, they make their space-bound opponents feel more futuristic by having tech that can detect the spiritual ki and give a reading on it. This also plays into plot machinations and tactics: Raditz knows where Goku is thanks to his Scouter, and Goku, haven't not learnt how to suppress his ki yet, can't sneak up on Raditz later. This sort of thing plays heavily into the chess match that is the Dragon Ball hunt on Namek: while it isn't exactly a RRA adventure, having to constantly suppress one's ki to avoid being picked up by the enemy gives a very distinct flavour to the arc. And as mentioned, the rather "brute force, math only" approach employed by the Frieza Force plays into their mentality when it comes to fighting. They see a number and that's all that person can be as an adult. They form an effective pissing contest on these numbers, and it feeds into how they use ki attacks: they never, EVER use anything crafty like the Kienzan discs or the Makangosappo, it's throw throwing energy balls around. This is in stark contrast to our heroes who are very crafty with it because they're in touch with the spiritual side of ki, and this gives them an advantage. Notably, when Vegeta gets in on this action, he immediately is more competitive against opponents who used to punch him into the dirt.

I also have to say that the idea of Power Levels being the be-all end-all is FURTHER influenced by the DBZ Trading Card Game which was popular in my school as a kid. The mechanics of how that works is that you up your character's Power Level to be higher than your opponent's and defeat them. Huh, sounds just like their interpretation of the show, right? A gross boiling down of how ki power ACTUALLY works? Not only that but they throw further gas onto the fire as to Power Level numbers post-Frieza. I mean just look! Apparently Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta is more powerful than Majin Vegeta!

Danfun64 · Post by **Danfun64** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:14 pm

What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)

I agree. On first blush it's a neat easter egg, but it makes no sense for him to call it that by those exact words (ignoring the fact that Saiyans speak the same language as Earthlings, obviously). Even "energy level" would have sufficed, or just his energy.

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:35 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)
I agree. On first blush it's a neat easter egg, but it makes no sense for him to call it that by those exact words (ignoring the fact that Saiyans speak the same language as Earthlings, obviously). Even "energy level" would have sufficed, or just his energy.

I can sense his power or I can sense his energy would have made the most sense.

Both power level and energy level insinuate some sort of quantifiable number that makes no sense in context.

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:55 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)
I agree. On first blush it's a neat easter egg, but it makes no sense for him to call it that by those exact words (ignoring the fact that Saiyans speak the same language as Earthlings, obviously). Even "energy level" would have sufficed, or just his energy.
I can sense his power or I can sense his energy would have made the most sense.

Both power level and energy level insinuate some sort of quantifiable number that makes no sense in context.

Well what I was thinking was an implication of how... "present" it is? Like strong powers tend to overwhelm others with their presence, right? Something like that?

...yeah it doesn't work.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:01 pm

Power levels aren't a good thing -- trying to quantify what will make the story interesting to literal math equations isn't exactly a good idea. They were only really used well in the back half of the saiyan arc, and after that they just cause non-discussion that detracts from looking at more important writing issues with the series. But in general, power levels are just another level (sorry) of the bigger issue of Dragon Ball's linear power scale. They're symptoms of a problem much bigger and more difficult to solve in present than they are themselves an issue.

I think Kunzait is probably right about arbitrary power level discourse being rooted in the weird marketing decisions made with the English version in the 90s (that's where most of the western fandom's problems begin, really), though as someone who got into DB like six years ago I can't personally attest to any of it. I DO however think the general "you shouldn't be this strong according to my scaling headcanons" rhetoric in Super discussion is a general evolution of power level arguments, and just as much missing the point as with the numbers.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:12 pm

I like them well enough. Not so much as static numbers but as a tool for describing one's might. I wish the numbers had been given less hyper-inflation (like, make Gi'nyuu 50,000, Gokuu 60,000 and Final Form Freeza 100,000 or something else) but it's otherwise acceptable. I prefer the letter-rankings in Yuu Yuu Hakusho where it was revealed after the fact that the incredibly powerful Toguro-otouto was only a B-class demon.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:47 pm

Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)

It also should not exist at any point in Z or GT, as the term and concept promptly exit the story with the demise of Mecha Freeza and King Cold at the hands of Mirai Trunks.

Shaddy wrote:Power levels aren't a good thing -- trying to quantify what will make the story interesting to literal math equations isn't exactly a good idea. They were only really used well in the back half of the saiyan arc, and after that they just cause non-discussion that detracts from looking at more important writing issues with the series. But in general, power levels are just another level (sorry) of the bigger issue of Dragon Ball's linear power scale. They're symptoms of a problem much bigger and more difficult to solve in present than they are themselves an issue.

Except none of that is even REMOTELY how Battle Powers are actually used in the actual Dragon Ball manga (or anime), at least in the original Japanese. The ONLY use Battle Powers have within the narrative are twofold:

1) To solidly differentiate the sci fi space alien-flavored Freeza empire from our mysical Kung Fu-trained Earthbound heroes. Freeza and his army, its clearly established within both the Saiya-jin and Namek arcs, have only a very brute-force, unnuanced, rudimentary grasp on what Ki is. Rather than a mystical power stemming from life all itself, they view it as a "scientific" power source that they only ever wield as a blunt-force murder weapon, rather than harnessing it to perform the myriad of other uses and abilities that our more mystically-oriented, martial artist heroes have been trained to use it for since well beforehand in the series.

And 2) to use this stark differentiation in how these two very different groups of characters perceive Ki as a means to give Goku and the other heroes a SLIGHT strategic edge over Freeza and his minions: while the overwhelming majority of Freeza's army vastly outmatch our heroes in terms of raw, brute power and strength, the heroes are constantly able to stay one step ahead and narrowly escape death time and time and time again by using the Freeza empire's general ignorance of Ki's mystical nature and over-reliance on Battle Power readings to their advantage and turn otherwise hopeless fights in their favor.

That's literally IT. Those two things are literally the ONLY roles that Battle Powers EVER play in the original manga/anime. And for those specific purposes, Toriyama uses Battle Powers plenty effectively, and then promptly discards them IMMEDIATELY after Freeza's empire stops being relevant in the original run (which once again, is right about the point where Mirai Trunks finishes off Mecha Freeza and King Cold).

KBABZ nailed it dead on point in this post here:

KBABZ wrote:As for my opinion on Power Levels, they serve a couple of other, semi-important tasks when it comes to Scouters. First, they make their space-bound opponents feel more futuristic by having tech that can detect the spiritual ki and give a reading on it. This also plays into plot machinations and tactics: Raditz knows where Goku is thanks to his Scouter, and Goku, haven't not learnt how to suppress his ki yet, can't sneak up on Raditz later. This sort of thing plays heavily into the chess match that is the Dragon Ball hunt on Namek: while it isn't exactly a RRA adventure, having to constantly suppress one's ki to avoid being picked up by the enemy gives a very distinct flavour to the arc. And as mentioned, the rather "brute force, math only" approach employed by the Frieza Force plays into their mentality when it comes to fighting. They see a number and that's all that person can be as an adult. They form an effective pissing contest on these numbers, and it feeds into how they use ki attacks: they never, EVER use anything crafty like the Kienzan discs or the Makangosappo, it's throw throwing energy balls around. This is in stark contrast to our heroes who are very crafty with it because they're in touch with the spiritual side of ki, and this gives them an advantage. Notably, when Vegeta gets in on this action, he immediately is more competitive against opponents who used to punch him into the dirt.

I'm going to make a bold statement that I nonetheless fully stand by here: virtually ALL OF the "criticisms" that most people have with how Toriyama uses Battle Powers in the original story have virtually NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any genuine "misuse" of the concept in the original story, but are rather COMPLETELY tied (often subconsciously) to their frustrations and disgust with how latter-day English-speaking fandom has misunderstood and over-harped away on the Battle Power concept and used it to boil every single Dragon Ball fight and plot point down to some ridiculous math equation.

Go back and look through either the original Manga, or the original anime in Japanese with the subs turned on: really, go back and pour over that shit with a fine tooth comb. You simply WILL NOT find ANY SINGLE instance in the original Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs (again, the ONLY arcs in which Battle Powers are even remotely a thing) where Battle Powers as a concept are used to "demystify Ki" or "reduce fights into some sort of math problem".

Indeed, the way that the original story uses Battle Powers is for literally the EXACT OPPOSITE reasons: to in fact PROVE that Ki is NOT some measurable, scientific energy source (as every effort among Freeza's minions to try and measure it via scouters ultimately ends up getting them killed, as they are totally unable to accurately gauge it), and that the more "mystical" martial arts training of the heroes is ultimately in the long run SUPERIOR to that of the "purely brute force" application of Freeza's empire. Its to a point where Vegeta himself starts to take a page out of Goku and the Earth martial artists' playbook and begin to copy THEIR OWN Ki sensing and Ki control techniques for his own use (against his former comrades in Freeza's army no less, and which handily gives him the clear edge over the vast majority of them that he faces off against).

Point to a time in the original series where a Scouter's Battle Power reading does ANYTHING other than get the Freeza soldier relying on it either beaten or killed. Point to a time in the original series where Battle Power readings are EVER even REMOTELY, VAGUELY useful to the person using the Scouter (apart from picking out someone's general location).

Within the original Japanese storyline there is literally NOTHING at all wrong with the Battle Power concept itself fundamentally, and moreover there is certainly nothing at all wrong with HOW Toriyama uses it in the original Saiya-jin and Freeza storylines. Literally ALL of the criticisms about Battle Powers "demystifying Ki in the series" or "making all fights into a numbers game" are COMPLETELY undermined by the actual original series itself which goes WELL out of its way to portray Battle Powers as 100% totally worthless and an outright liability to Freeza's men from the outset. It is more than a little telling that they are NEVER AGAIN so much as brought up within the entire rest of Z post-Freeza.

These criticisms people have with how Battle Powers "ruined the series" are for the most part TOTALLY made up and are purely a byproduct of literally 20+ years worth of built-up English-speaking DBZ fandom baggage and online "power scaling" debates and "power level lists" and whatnot becoming virtually synonymous with all things DB-related online.

Point me to almost ANY given "Power Level debate" thread on either Kanzenshuu or ANY OTHER Dragon Ball forum online, and I GUARANTEE you that the OVERWHELMING majority of terms and concepts relating to Power Levels being thrown about in those threads are ENTIRELY made up in the minds of those fans, who are doing little more than taking their own headcanon and fan fiction and projecting them out onto the series (and moreover are primarily going off of the FUNimation dub, which is chock full of its own completely made up fanfic nonsense that has no relevance whatsoever to the original story).

Don't get me wrong: I completely get and empathize 1000% with fans who are SO beyond sick to death of this ridiculous "numbers porn" nonsense cluttering up Dragon Ball fan discourse (both online and in general), and who think that any and all "power scaling" debates should be outright banned from most DB discussion forums (in all honesty, they probably SHOULD be banned). HOWEVER, that being said: I 100% vehemently disagree with taking one's fed up frustrations with how English language fans have warped this shit over the years and turning it back onto the original story itself, as there is literally NOTHING there in the original story to support the myriad of stupid fandom shit that has sprung up around them.

The absolutely bugfuck insane English language fandom response to Battle Powers in DBZ is a COMPLETELY unforeseeable (by both Toriyama, as well as virtually ANYONE who was following DB back during its original, pre-dub Japanese run in the late 80s and early 90s) fluke of an occurrence that is without the slightest doubt (I say as someone who's been neck deep into following this shit since at least 1992 or so) 1000% the fault of both the FUNimation dub itself, and moreover the ridiculously stupid and cockamamie means in which it was originally aired on North American TV in the late 90s. It has literally ZERO connection whatsoever to ANYTHING in the original Japanese story: because Dragon Ball fandom went for YEARS and years prior to the dub having Battle Powers around and nobody in almost ANY corner of fandom at the time giving the slightest inkling of a shit about them or placing any undue relevance on them.

The whole phenomenon with power level obsession and "strength scaling/debating" is absolutely, unquestionably tied primarily to both the English language fanbase as well as the FUNimation version in general. Any criticisms aimed at the original Japanese story's use of Battle Powers is, by and large at least, wholly unmerited and coming from a place of (more than justifiably) fed-up fans, sick of endless Power Level wankery clogging up a sizable majority of DB discourse, venting and ultimately misplacing their frustrations with the broader English language fanbase out onto the original story. All that frustration and resentment should be aimed solely and squarely at both FUNimation as well as English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom itself as a uniquely stupid and ridiculous entity within the broader, global DB fandom overall.

As far as the original Japanese manga and anime run is concerned, it is wholly and completely guilt-free of any of this ludicrous, absurd "power scaling/strength debating" crap, none of which came about until years well past its original end-point and totally within a (grossly inaccurate) foreign-language adaptation and within the ignorant and manically hyperactive gradeschool-aged minds of its audience.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:07 am

I mean, that's not quite what I was trying to say, but fuck if I'm gonna try to argue something that long, most of it's true anyway.

Danfun64 · Post by **Danfun64** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:07 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)
It also should not exist at any point in Z or GT, as the term and concept promptly exit the story with the demise of Mecha Freeza and King Cold at the hands of Mirai Trunks.

(Bold added by me)
Ummmmm.........

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:13 am

Danfun64 wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Danfun64 wrote:What's the equivalent Blue Water dialogue? Also, Funi including that reference to Power Levels is mildly infuriating, as that kind of terminology (Battle Power, Power Levels, etc) should not exist before Raditz shows up and the term first comes out of his mouth (well, from a real life chronology perspective anyways)
It also should not exist at any point in Z or GT, as the term and concept promptly exit the story with the demise of Mecha Freeza and King Cold at the hands of Mirai Trunks.
(Bold added by me)
Ummmmm.........

It also should not exist at any point in the back half of Z or GT, as the term and concept promptly exit the story with the demise of Mecha Freeza and King Cold at the hands of Mirai Trunks.

Better?

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:25 am

Power Level Scouter stuff is at the very least interesting in giving a numerical measurement to one's ki, and it can be useful for sussing out an opponent... but only simple, unrefined ones such as Cui or Raditz. As soon as you get a character who can suppress Ki naturally, suppress it through transformations, concentrate it to a specific part of the body (like what happens with the Makangosappo) or increase/multiply it with a transformation (which is to say, literally everybody after Dodoria with the exception of the Ginyu Force), the usefulness of a Scouter goes away.

I also feel like it's worth pointing out that the heroes themselves take Scouters and reconstruct their core idea from science back into something mystical! In addition to suppressing their ki and sensing the location of their opponents, they can also sense how strong their opponent is. So what I bet frustrates a lot of US dubbies is the fact that sensing ki in this way is done entirely with what is to them weasel words. Stuff like "incredible" or "off the charts" or "exponential" are descriptors, not the cold, hard mathematical numbers that they're used to. And a couple of times they are used to give a rough grade for an opponent, like Yakon being described as about as powerful as Cell Games Gohan, or Goku saying (in any language) that Rilldo is more powerful than Majin Buu. And because of that we get the snarl-wank clusterfuck of US fans seriously trying to figure out actual numbers for post-Namek characters and their associated forms.

AND and, Power Levels are often interpreted similarly to, say, what level your Pokémon is, another mathematical ranking to figure out how well you might do, so I bet that feeds into the US perspective as well.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:29 am

Wait, who the fuck is Yarbon?

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:30 am

Shaddy wrote:Wait, who the fuck is Yarbon?

Heh, I looked up the name, I mean Yakon and edited the post. Sorry about that!

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